BH Balanced Hackmons

KrazyKoopa95 In response to you here and in the suspect discussion, Heat Crash is, unfortunately, not a good move, as it does damage by difference in weight. Primal don being one of the heaviest Pokemon, seems like it'd be strong, right? Problem is BH is full of big, fat, and heavy legendaries, so getting a good base power is very difficult. For example, Giratina, one of the most common Pokemon in the tier, is more than heavy enough to turn any Heat Crashes aimed at it into a whopping BP 40 move. Couple this with Heat Crash capping at a base power of 120, its inconsistency in reaching that value causes it to pale in comparison to V-Create (BP 180), Flare Blitz (BP 120), and Sacred Fire (BP 100).

Notable Pokemon who are walls or are bulky and don't get hit by max power include Zygarde-Complete, both Groudons, both Giratinas, both Kyogres, Regigas, Mega Steelix, Palkia, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem-all three, Arceus, Celesteela, Mega Gyarados, Xerneas, Solgaleo, Lugia, Registeel, Mega-Tyranitar, both Rayquaza, and Yveltal. Assuming I missed nobody. Most of these are high tier meta Pokemon and not being able to hit them hard is pretty detrimental.

But if you still want to try it out, run Red Orb Groudon and go have fun. And run Heavy Slam for good measure and crumple a Mega-Diancie with it.


harrysky This topic isn't for hacking Pokemon into the games themselves. I'm not sure anywhere on the Smogon forums is the place for that sort of request or even allowed to be requested outside of testing game mechanics.
Thank you!
you can still run Groudon with Red Orb.
I tried, it still tells me it is banned.
 
Here are some significant changes in current meta I have observed:



Kyogre-Primal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Revelation Dance / Scald
- Spectral Thief
- Roost
- U-turn / Core Enforcer / Entrainment / Worry Seed

We previously used Unaware Gyarados to check Power Trip / Stored Power users, but any players around average level have their team prepared against it all times while Stored Power's main abuser is MMX which simply wrecks Mega Gyarados using Close Combat. Also Poison Heal Xerneas is more prevalent after absence of Primal Groudon and is one of the best ways to threaten Giratina and Zygarde-C, and this is another bad news for Unaware Gyarados. Poison Heal Pogre, which Unaware Gyarados normally would check, now carries Moonblast pretty much all the time. In such ways, Unaware Mega Gyarados has been suffering from the metagame it has shaped. I think this allowed Primal Kyogre to equip Unaware and be a very efficient wall.

Unless you are avid user of RegenVest, you might have overlooked Primal Kyogre's monstrous special bulk of 100/160. A single Water-typing in addition leaves Primal Kyogre with only two weakness of Electric and Grass-types and in terms of special attacks, these typing are fairly uncommon outsides Volt Switch or Leaf Storm from Mega Sceptile. This allows Unaware Pogre to check PH Pogre and PH Xerneas itself while being emergency way to stop contrary MMY or Mega Sceptile; +6 Moongeist Beam fails to OHKO this titan. Also Pogre is one of the Unaware users that is able to keep certain degree of offensive presence.

As seen in morogrim's RMT, Pogre now handles tons of threats in current meta and I have been using it myself. It fits well on balance and stall alike. Imposter switching in and spamming recovery might be an issue, but that's same issue for Fur Coat set as well soz...

--



These two friends are top tier threat at this point imo.
They check each others' checks and counters and a single setup lets them outspeed MMY which is the most relevant & fastest offensive threat. Poison Heal makes Regigigas and Xerneas impossible to wear down and there are severely few 'mons that are able to endure through sleep turns while handling boosted Regigigas' Facade, Xerneas' Moonblast, and their respective coverage moves. I have been using this core myself; Giratina and Zygarde-C cries and runs away from Xerneas while Regigigas beats down all Prankster users and specially defensive walls. The best core to abuse at this moment, trust me.



Ez af. Laddered for 2 hours and look what happened.

--



Flash Fire Steel is everywhere.

Those Pdon addicts can't stop spamming V-create and they now do that with -ate users, and as far as I can tell, this has been a norm around since the time we were suspect testing Primal Groudon. Solgaleo, Registeel, and particulary Aegislash now check -ate better with Flash Fire than carrying Prankster. Yeh, I remember volt saying "I write Aegislash analysis and Aegi is awful". Well, this guy now simultaneously functions as -ate check, spreads status, checks Contrary lacking Moongeist Beam, and blocks spin.

Oh also I have been using Magearna; it is decent at least, I can say. I staple this 'mon when I only have one team slot left and when I want some sort of mixture of Registeel and Audino. Magic Bounce is p dope, it completely invalidates stuff like Poison Fang that Giratina carries for Audino and has some offensive presence with Moonblast unlike other Steel-types which just let dragons come in and heal up for free.

...

So yeah, this is what I think. Do you guys see these phenomenons on ladder too?
 
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Flint asked me what i think about post P-Don meta;


I made 2 move changes and 1 ability change max per team.
The meta feels not changed at all.

The lack of P-Don means other stuff carries more V-Create for coverage.
Yes M-Diancle got more popular but Imposter counters it and you can use Flash Fire on Steels.

I tried out M-Blaziken with Flash Fire M-Gengar and 3 battles in a row my opponents
played the same for 5 turns.

BH has no good Fire poke without P-Don.
Ho-oh dies to Stealth Rock and M-Blaziken is hard to use.

RNG listed alot of Steeltypes and without Magnet Pull they are fairly safe.
Sure they are not and super good but they can get their job done.


I have prefered P-Kyogre over M-Gyarados as an Unaware for months.
P-Kyogre is my most used poke atm.

1.) A powerful Scald helps alot in stall based situations.
2.) Gyarados has 3 additional weaknesses, Fairy, Bug and Fighting.
3.) Pretty much the only thing which can take any hit from Spec MMY.
4.) Its most effective sets are all Imposterproof.
5.) Hard punishment if other ability/moveset


I think Regigigas got actually worse, so many normal resits arround atm.
Toxic Orb means it can not use Life Orb V-Create and without P-Don there are more MMX.
 
I have prefered P-Kyogre over M-Gyarados as an Unaware for months.
P-Kyogre is my most used poke atm.

1.) A powerful Scald helps alot in stall based situations.
2.) Gyarados has 3 additional weaknesses, Fairy, Bug and Fighting.
3.) Pretty much the only thing which can take any hit from Spec MMY.
4.) Its most effective sets are all Imposterproof.
5.) Hard punishment if other ability/moveset
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 358-423 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 421-496 (104.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I wouldn't be so sure of that
 


Flash Fire Steel is everywhere.

Those Pdon addicts can't stop spamming V-create and they now do that with -ate users, and as far as I can tell, this has been a norm around since the time we were suspect testing Primal Groudon. Solgaleo, Registeel, and particulary Aegislash now check -ate better with Flash Fire than carrying Prankster. Yeh, I remember volt saying "I write Aegislash analysis and Aegi is awful". Well, this guy now simultaneously functions as -ate check, spreads status, checks Contrary lacking Moongeist Beam, and blocks spin.
This is why I started to run -ate like this (diancie for example)
Diancie-Mega @ Groundium Z
Ability: Pixilate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Boomburst
- Precipice Blades
- Extreme Speed
- Fake Out

Tectonic Rage is sightly more powerful than V-create, it doesn't fail and it fries FF and Dialga (unlike V-create). You are walled by Celesteela (and Ho-Oh) but that is my improof.
 
Maybe I’m crazy for saying this, but to what extent was Magnet Pull used last generation? Pdon being banned means steels aren’t necessarily dead every time a steelkiller catches them, and we have 252 EVs to make everything bulky.

I’m not so convinced about Stakeout considering that has no bearing on whether or not the opponent has steels, but I would be interested to see how Magnet Pull would be used (especially considering the coverage needed to reliably hit all steels in the meta—fighting for Registeel and Ferrothorn, Ground for Solgaleo, Aegislash, and Magearna, and then Electric for Celesteela)

Essentially, I don’t remember Magnet Pull being common in gen 6 (or at least, I can’t remember having fought it), so with extra bulk in this meta it seems like it could have less of a bearing.

Mmx sounds like a concern, but fighting only hits Registeel and Ferrothorn super effectively, meaning flash fire Aegislash could ideally work around it. This, of course, is under the assumption that Flash Fire is, after all, common.
 
Steels were less common pre-Primal ban last gen since they didn't wall so many meta Pokemon. Poison Heal (Primal) Kyogre, X/Y Aerilate Charizard-Y, X/Y Yveltal, Sturdy Shedinja, Mega-Gengar, Protean Mewtwo Y/X, and a lot of others. Plus we also didn't have Solgaleo or Celesteela while Aggron and Steelix were considered low tier, so you only had to worry about Registeel mostly, with a side of Aegilash (who couldn't be trapped) and Dialga, who commonly ran Magnet Pull Tail Glow Doom Desire to lure, trap, and PP Stall Imposters. On the other hand, no Core Enforcer or Spectral Thief left Giratina as pretty much the go-to wall. Late gen when Registeel saw a lot of use, it was because of Aerilate/Pixilate dominating the meta.

Even still, Magnet Pull was common enough that the advice of never switching Imposter into a Steel was very sound advice.
 
I have never been too good at BH, but I decided to try understanding the meta a bit more, and I found that this double Imposter Balance team has worked pretty well for me.


I started with two Chanseys. Originally one was Earth Plate, but the lack of Gengars made me reconsider and I made them both Eviolite.



Next, I added a blanket check to Imposter sweepers. Its immunity to stored power and resistance to Power Trip makes it ideal for beating the majority of sweepers, while not losing to MMX. Haze can help relieve pressure for other teammates, u-turn to pivot, seismic toss to remove subs, and shore up for reliable recovery.



Although MGB and SSS both make Shedinja very sad, it can still deal with many bulkier threats that don't have either of the two moves, or toxic. Moveset is pretty standard.



Slaking pairs very well with shedinja, because opponents are put into a mindgame situation just by having it. Slaking is also pretty standard, with king's shield used to trick the opponent that the slaking might be shedinja. Slaking can usually tear holes through an opponent's team before getting revenge killed.



Giratina finishes the team off to tank hits from non boosted opponents. A pretty standard PH moveset.



In general, the team is played by scouting sets with a Chansey, switching into an appropriate check, and waiting for the opponent to make a risky move, and punish it. The team struggles against defensively oriented teams and teams with substitute. The team also struggles with most steel types.

I would love to hear suggestions to the team, especially regarding steel types.


Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Recover
- Whirlwind
- Metal Burst

Slaking @ Normalium Z
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sunsteel Strike
- King's Shield
- Shell Smash

Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Seismic Toss
- Shore Up
- Haze

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Recover
- Whirlwind
- Metal Burst

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Haze
- Shore Up

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- Whirlpool
- Baton Pass

 
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I have never been too good at BH, but I decided to try understanding the meta a bit more, and I found that this double Imposter Balance team has worked pretty well for me.


I started with two Chanseys. Originally one was Earth Plate, but the lack of Gengars made me reconsider and I made them both Eviolite.



Next, I added a blanket check to Imposter sweepers. Its immunity to stored power and resistance to Power Trip makes it ideal for beating the majority of sweepers, while not losing to MMX. Haze can help relieve pressure for other teammates, u-turn to pivot, seismic toss to remove subs, and shore up for reliable recovery.



Although MGB and SSS both make Shedinja very sad, it can still deal with many bulkier threats that don't have either of the two moves, or toxic. Moveset is pretty standard.



Slaking pairs very well with shedinja, because opponents are put into a mindgame situation just by having it. Slaking is also pretty standard, with king's shield used to trick the opponent that the slaking might be shedinja. Slaking can usually tear holes through an opponent's team before getting revenge killed.



Giratina finishes the team off to tank hits from non boosted opponents. A pretty standard PH moveset.



In general, the team is played by scouting sets with a Chansey, switching into an appropriate check, and waiting for the opponent to make a risky move, and punish it. The team struggles against defensively oriented teams and teams with substitute. The team also struggles with most steel types.

I would love to hear suggestions to the team, especially regarding steel types.


Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Recover
- Whirlwind
- Metal Burst

Slaking @ Normalium Z
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sunsteel Strike
- King's Shield
- Shell Smash

Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Haze

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fake Out
- Recover
- Whirlwind
- Metal Burst

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Haze
- Shore Up

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- Whirlpool
- Baton Pass

Quick changes:

* Dual Chansey -> Imposter Chansey & Fur Coat Chansey


Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Whirlwind
- Soft-Boiled
- U-turn

Your team doesn't have a switch-in against -ate users like Mega Rayquaza and Mega Diancie and therefore I would suggest replacing one of your Imposter Chansey with Fur Coat Chansey. Steel-types are not the most reliable check to -ate users at this moment due to V-create being norm coverage on those threats.

* Yveltal moveset


Yveltal @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revelation Dance
- Spectral Thief
- Recover
- U-turn

First off your team can do exactly 0 things against Normalize Gengar. Yveltal with Revelation Dance should do the job because it hits Gengar supereffectively even after Entrainment. Spectral Thief makes sure that your Yveltal won't be overwhelmed by +6 Moongeist Beam from stuff like Triage Mega Rayquaza or MMY. It also does hefty damage to MMY and opposing Gengar especially if they are boosted and stealing the boost itself lets your team handle those sweepers if your Yveltal isn't healthy enough to completely stop them.

168 Speed EV and 0 IV lets your outspeed rare Deoxys-A after you steal +2 speed from Spectral Thief but I normally wouldn't recommend using that spread

* Shedinja moveset


Shedinja @ Protective Pads
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Endeavor
- Extreme Speed
- U-turn
- Soak / Stealth Rock

This is the most standard & efficient Shedinja set imo. Baton Pass is objectively worse than Protective Pads + U-turn because it doesn't chip the opponent. Pads also lets you fearlessly use Endeavor without scouting for rare Rocky Helmet. U-turn lets you pivot against Ghost-types and this is really good move on Shed because of its ability to force switches and low Speed to guarantee you pivot out last. Soak is a fun meme to use against Giratina / Aegislash which Shedinja would otherwise never be able to surmount, while Stealth Rock or other hazards are also viable due to it forcing out all Magic Bounce users in the tier barring Giratina.

* Slaking -> Solgaleo


Solgaleo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sunsteel Strike / Knock Off
- Core Enforcer
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn

Your slaking unfortunately doesn't fit on your team at all due to your team being very stall-oriented. Also your team, even with Yveltal, have hard time against MMY in general bc it can snipe your Yveltal with something like Fleur Cannon or chip it hard with Volt Switch. Solgaleo looks like the good fit here because while Yveltal can switch to Moongeist Beam Solgaleo can switch into Sunsteel Strike for Shedinja. Core Enforcer / Spectral Theif lets you shut down stuff like Poison Heal Pogre and setup variants of MMY.

* Giratina movest


Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 116 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Core Enforcer
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn

Your Giratina doesn't check Poison Heal Regigigas other than PP stalling with Haze, and carrying Toxic on Poison Heal is generally a bad idea because Imposter can switch into Toxic, copy your Poison Heal Giratina and proceed to PP stall you. Core Enforcer is added to make sure you can remove Poison Heal from Regigigas while doing some damage on stuff like MMX or rare Blaziken which are the threats Giratina is usually tasked to check.

116 Speed EV with 31 Speed IV makes sure that your Giratina outspeed Jolly Mega Blazkien after a speed from first V-create, meaning you won't be 2HKO'd after you take priority damage.


----

I hope I don't sound offensive or rude but your so-called-shed-stall team has some serious systemic issues and unfortunately the individual errors I have pointed out is not going to fix your team immediately. Your team definately needs a reliable Defog user and PH Giratina isn't the most reliable user for that due to prevalence of Core Enforcer. I only gave Giratina a Defog just to make sure I keep your team's structure as much as possible while applying fixations. Probably stapling in Magic Bounce Audino / PH Audino with hazard removal is going to make sure you keep hazards away most of the times. Also your team doesn't really have any answers to Unburden + Belly Drum users like Kartana which can proceed to delete your whole team after your Giratina has taken some hits. It is not like your team has many Core Enforcer users to suppress Unburden when it sets up anyway.

But don't worry too much because stall teams take a lot of trials and errors to be efficiently built. I mostly build balance teams for ladder and tournament matches and therefore lack experience in stall. Here is an RMT from morogrim peaking #1 in a ladder with fcking insane GXE. I know it is not a Shedinja stall team but the RMT should give you a general idea about what threats in the metagame you have to take into account and how should stall teams be built.

Thanks for sharing your team and have a good day.
 
Maybe I’m crazy for saying this, but to what extent was Magnet Pull used last generation? Pdon being banned means steels aren’t necessarily dead every time a steelkiller catches them, and we have 252 EVs to make everything bulky.

I’m not so convinced about Stakeout considering that has no bearing on whether or not the opponent has steels, but I would be interested to see how Magnet Pull would be used (especially considering the coverage needed to reliably hit all steels in the meta—fighting for Registeel and Ferrothorn, Ground for Solgaleo, Aegislash, and Magearna, and then Electric for Celesteela)

Essentially, I don’t remember Magnet Pull being common in gen 6 (or at least, I can’t remember having fought it), so with extra bulk in this meta it seems like it could have less of a bearing.

Mmx sounds like a concern, but fighting only hits Registeel and Ferrothorn super effectively, meaning flash fire Aegislash could ideally work around it. This, of course, is under the assumption that Flash Fire is, after all, common.


I fully agree, both Magnet Pull and Stakeout were controversial.

Many act as if Magnet Pull has no opportunity cost and guaranteed rewards.
It got slightly better in Gen 7 due -ate nerf and Parting Shot being blockable.

Stakeout was pretty hyped during OMPL V, mostly on P-Don.
Now it would stay.

MMX is a P-Don replacement, It has countersets against pretty much anything.
MMY beats MMX. So these two cycle up their useage, like a perfect pair.

Biggest selling point of being Fighting/Psychic is that you can hit both
Dark and Steel types super effective.



Quick changes:

* Dual Chansey -> Imposter Chansey & Fur Coat Chansey

I think Dual is the wrong word for having a pair same pokes in a team.
Its called "Doubles" like BH Doubles, -> Double Chansey.

Here from dictionary;

upload_2017-11-2_20-46-21.png


Any serious team with Double Chansey is OP.
Give Yveltal V-Create over Seismic toss and replace Haze with either Heart Swap or Spectral Thief.



252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 358-423 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Psychic Terrain: 421-496 (104.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I wouldn't be so sure of that

My 5 points refer to P-Kyogre in general, not to Unaware specific.

The first P-Kyogre is favorite, even without Assault Vest.
The 2nd is obviously for Fur Coat sets.
Im sure of that.
 
Thank you!

I tried, it still tells me it is banned.
One thing Groudon has that can be surprisingly useful is a Base form ability. I know when it comes into batltle it changes immediately, but abilities which activate on switch in, such as Download, Intimidate, a Terrain Surge, or last second uses like Magic Guard (one-time hazard prevention) can be useful.

For example, if you use Electric Terrain on the Base form, Groudon can prevent sleep, power up Bolt Strike, and is not threatened by opposing Electric moves by the opponent because it is immune to them as it is a Ground-type.

It is a one time use, but it’s better than just keeping the default Drought and letting Desolate Land replace it, plus if Primal Kyogre switches in, it might just get checked by an Electric Surge boosted Bolt Strike from your now Primal Groudon if you can get it on the switch in.
 
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My 5 points refer to P-Kyogre in general, not to Unaware specific.

The first P-Kyogre is favorite, even without Assault Vest.
The 2nd is obviously for Fur Coat sets.
Im sure of that.
The point is mmy can OHKO Pogre with either of those two moves and our wonderful whale friend can't run both sets at the same time
 
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Ways to deal with Sleep:

1) Comatose

After looking at morogrim's RMT, I started exploring Comatose. At the same time, Regigigas and Xerneas started opting Lovely Kiss over Spore due to rise of Ferrothorn, and I thought it is time for me to change my strategies...

Giratina @ Griseous Orb / Darkinium Z
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Core Enforcer / Worry Seed
- Toxic / Poison Fang / Defog
- Shore Up
- U-turn / Parting Shot

Gyarados-Mega @ Leftovers / Black Glasses
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 88 Spe
Careful Nature
- Pursuit / Spore
- Spectral Thief / Knock Off / Defog
- U-turn
- Shore Up

Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Topsy-Turvy
- Perish Song / U-turn
- Shore Up


These are various sets I have been playing around with to harass threats that rely on Sleep / abuse Sleep to circumvent their would-be-counters.
Giratina set is p much similar to what morogrim had in his RMT and what I believe to be a standard. Unlike Poison Heal Comatose Giratina doesn't fear too much from Imposter's Core Enforcer, assuming Imposter took one on the switch and lost Comatose. Also it can now freely use status moves like Poison Fang, or possibly Will-O-Wisp.
Mega Gyarados with Comatose has barely failed me so far; it simultaneously handles every Gengar except non-Tail Glow variants thanks to Comatose blocking Normalize + Entrainment and Spore / Lovely Kiss from Mold Breaker and the clones. I mean, not having Unaware sucks but Unaware sets suffer from Lovely Kiss anyway. Comatose also lets Mega Gyarados have better matchup versus stall teams where status will naturally be prominent, and against balance and offense, it can use its good SpDef to absorb all status moves and stuff. Being able to fearlessly spam Knock Off + Spore is an added bonus to harass fat teams.
Registeel now is able to handle all Poison Heal users, maybe with the exception of Water Spout PH Kyogre. What have I been trying out is a trapping set to punish the likes of Regigigas and Xerneas if they attempt to set up in front of Registeel. After using Topsy-Turvy and I turn on Perish Song, and they are just gone in 3 turns. Obviously this trapping set is rather gimmicky and a invitation to Imposter but Comatose Registeel can be really sturdy wall that can shut down any sweepers that don't have dedicated / strong move to hit it.


2) Misty Surge


Giratina @ Terrain Extender / Griseous Orb
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Entrainment
- Spectral Thief / Defog
- Shore Up
- U-turn

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Topsy-Turvy / U-turn
- Whirlwind
- Soft-Boiled


Another Giratina except this is what I saw from SW laddering. First I thought Misty Surge on Giratina is somewhat counterproductive due to it largely relying on Core Enforcer to handle Regigigas or wear down offensive threats that attempt to switch into Giratina. I don't really know what moveset is SW using but this is what I think to be an ideal set. Entrainment lets Giratina check Regigigas without falling to sleep and handing over momentum. One might wonder why should this be used over Poison Heal but this is really good if your team has some defensive backbones that do enjoy not having Lovely Kiss around, including Unaware / Flash Fire Ferrothorn, Mega Gyarados, or any stuff.
Misty Surge Chansey is a fun meme. Moveset is fairly one-dimentional like Fur Coat variants are but this one does much better job handling stuff like PH Kyogre or PH Xerneas. +1 Regigigas has a chance to be OHKO'd by Metal Burst, if it tries to Knock Off Eviolite so it can't use Chansey has a no-brainer setup fodder like usual.

--

So as you hopefully read this, you might have wondered why should these abilities be used over stuff like Poison Heal. There are couple reasons:

* If you wanna run PH mon in your team and if you are suffering from ability clause and make your walls resilient to sleep, these abilities are for you.
* The abilities let your mons run REAL ITEMS like Leftovers or others. For Mega Gyarados, it can now run Black Glasses to OHKO MMY with Pursuit after Stealth Rock damage while still running Sassy nature. No more Safety Goggles.
* As mentioned this helps your entire team by protecting them from many things - letting your walls check Kyogre without fearing Scald burn, less damage from Core Enforcer, etc.
* As much MMY is a huge threat, Misty Surge lets your walls handle Psycho Boost spam way easier and you won't need a 'mon that is very dedicated to stop it.

Disclaimer:

This is totally unrelated to my stance on applying Sleep Clause or whatever, just sharing ways to handle potentially unhealthy mechanic called sleep.
 
If we're talking Misty Surge, lemme share the Giratina variant from the RMT in my signature.


Giratina @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Recover
- Defog
- Spectral Thief
- Baton Pass

Main differences here is it can steal boosts and pass them along to counter-sweep and the speed investment allows it to reliably deal with Psychic Surge Sash Smash Ytwo with a safe switch, as Timid Ytwo can outspeed and 2HKO min-invested Speed Giratina even after stealing the Shell Smash boost. It doesn't deal with PH Gigas by itself, however, which is a drawback.

Not saying its better or worse than RNG's sets, just tossing out another variant for inquiring minds!
 
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Ya, Misty Surge is neat like I've been saying for a while. I believe Goggles is an archaic item that's not reliable in the slightest in mid to high level play thanks to meta trends (lovely kiss > spore, which people have come to realise months ago). Though I don't run the set RNG posted, I just use a very standard set (that means Core Enforcer > Entrainment because A. I don't care about the damage nerf and B. Damage, though Entrainment is nice for Xerneas on the switch in and revealing the opponent's ability). I use it alongside Ferrothorn which helps it temporarily be immune to sleep which is very useful. Weakening Draco Meteor helps it also check Contrary Rayquaza and Sceptile.

There's also Electric Surge which I use on another team, but this time I opted for a more offensive beneficiary in Zekrom, which is a Pokemon that can use this ability very well. Bolt Strike powers up a lot which turns 2HKOs into OHKOs and generally gives it a lot more power and the sleep immunity helps it with finding set-up opportunities

e: A couple more things. IMO for the reasons above I believe Misty Surge to generally be superior to Comatose. Due to the way BH works it's not hard to consistently switch in your Misty Surge Pokemon and the team support it can provide is so very useful. The only instance I'd prefer the latter is for when your team doesn't benefit much at all from Misty Terrain (EG. You have multiple Lovely Kiss users or Magic Bounce Pokemon or whatever). Secondly, removing Mega Mewtwo Y's Psychic Surge is useful for many reasons I'm sure you can all think of.
 
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Just picked up BH this is way too fun.

I haven't messed around with/ misty surge too much but one thing I noticed is that the extremely pivot-heavy meta makes lining up the SI to re-activate misty terrain somewhat difficult. Definitely down for anything that cuts the power of MMY though. Not too terribly concerned about weakened core enforcer because it's weak anyway.
 
Just picked up BH this is way too fun.

I haven't messed around with/ misty surge too much but one thing I noticed is that the extremely pivot-heavy meta makes lining up the SI to re-activate misty terrain somewhat difficult. Definitely down for anything that cuts the power of MMY though. Not too terribly concerned about weakened core enforcer because it's weak anyway.
Core enforcer has the same power as searing shot, psystrike, moongeist beam, sunsteel strike and is stronger than spacial rend, extreme speed secret sword, oblivion wing, spectral thief, and has no downsides to using it.
I wouldn't call Core Enforcer a weak move.
 
Yoo,

I made a cool core of 3 mons - 2 Arceus' and 1 Giratina. From the first view it seems pretty standart, but there is actually a thought behind it.

_

Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance
- Roost

Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance
- Roost

Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- Heart Swap
- Roost

_

The Mold Breaker Arceus counters Unaware mons and Sturdy Shedinja. The Unaware Arceus counters other setup mons, especially Contrary. Both do counter Normalize Gengar because they have plated Judgment themself. Prankster Giratina counters other Moldbreaker and Unaware setups. If Chansey wants to Imposter one of the Arceus', you can simply Switch out to Giratina, because without a Plate Chansey cannot touch Giratina. Since both Arceus' are from type Normal, Spectral Thief does not work against them aswell, which leaves Prankster Heart Swap as one of their few weaknesses, if not the only weakness if played correctly. Tho, Unaware Arceus does not even care about it too much aswell and there is still your own Prankster Heart Swap.

The attack moves are plain examples. The synergy between those mons is the important point.

This is just something I wanted to share, because I have a fair amount of success with it. Tho, I can imagine it is nothing new at all. Have fun with it nevertheless if you like it! :-)

Is this actually the right place to post stuff like that? I am sorry, I am new here. (eventhough the account does exist since while)
 
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Yoo,

I made a cool core of 3 mons - 2 Arceus' and 1 Giratina. From the first view it seems pretty standart, but there is actually a thought behind it.

_

Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance
- Roost

Arceus @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance
- Roost

Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer
- Heart Swap
- Roost

_

The Mold Breaker Arceus counters Unaware mons and Sturdy Shedinja. The Unaware Arceus counters other setup mons, especially Contrary. Both do counter Normalize Gengar because they have plated Judgment themself. Prankster Giratina counters other Moldbreaker and Unaware setups. If Chansey wants to Imposter one of the Arceus', you can simply Switch out to Giratina, because without a Plate Chansey cannot touch Giratina. Since both Arceus' are from type Normal, Spectral Thief does not work against them aswell, which leaves Prankster Heart Swap as one of their few weaknesses, if not the only weakness if played correctly. Tho, Unaware Arceus does not even care about it too much aswell and there is still your own Prankster Heart Swap.

The attack moves are plain examples. The synergy between those mons is the important point.

This is just something I wanted to share, because I have a fair amount of success with it. Tho, I can imagine it is nothing new at all. Have fun with it nevertheless if you like it! :-)

Is this actually the right place to post stuff like that? I am sorry, I am new here. (eventhough the account does exist since while)
I'll preface this saying a fairly new player as well:

First things first, Shore Up is better than Roost in every way

I really don't understand the Unaware Arceus. Unaware is for defensive mons, but it has an offensive moveset. Replace Quiver Dance and Judgement with supporting moves(eg. U-turn, Whirlwind, Rapid Spin). This allows you to replace the plate with Safety Googles, which is important since nearly every sweeper carries spore. Normalize MGar can be handled by a teammate, Arceus would much rather prefer another item and a different move. I really don't see the appeal of Unaware Arceus tbh, it has only one weakness, but the typing lets it down most of the time. The sweepers that Arceus is trying to stop can still deal a hefty amount of damage with their STAB, considering Normal resists nothing and Arceus's bulk isn't that impressive by BH standards(Contrary MMY has a 93.4% chance to 2HKO with Psycho Boost). Ghost immunity isn't all that helpful either, considering anything that relies on Ghost moves always runs Fighting coverage.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I'll preface this saying a fairly new player as well:

First things first, Shore Up is better than Roost in every way

I really don't understand the Unaware Arceus. Unaware is for defensive mons, but it has an offensive moveset. Replace Quiver Dance and Judgement with supporting moves(eg. U-turn, Whirlwind, Rapid Spin). This allows you to replace the plate with Safety Googles, which is important since nearly every sweeper carries spore. Normalize MGar can be handled by a teammate, Arceus would much rather prefer another item and a different move. I really don't see the appeal of Unaware Arceus tbh, it has only one weakness, but the typing lets it down most of the time. The sweepers that Arceus is trying to stop can still deal a hefty amount of damage with their STAB, considering Normal resists nothing and Arceus's bulk isn't that impressive by BH standards(Contrary MMY has a 93.4% chance to 2HKO with Psycho Boost). Ghost immunity isn't all that helpful either, considering anything that relies on Ghost moves always runs Fighting coverage.
as a slightly more experienced bh player (albeit dying down recently due to irl issues and boredom) i want to give my two cents on the whole shore up issue from my point of veiw:

technically speaking shore up is better, but its also important to have a variety of different recovery moves, as you never know when someone will run imprison shore up specifically to fuck up people who rely on the superior healing. (you know its bad when ALL your walls lose to contrary mm2x with superpower, psychoboost, shore up, and imprison just because you only have shore up as healing)

enless you are running sand stream, id honestly say shore up is good for only one mon per team, because shore up's main benefit is super rare, and its much better to just be diverse in healing options then having to risk the small chance someone will run imprison shore up just because so many people run it (since its better). sure shore up is objectively better, but the benefit is so rare, and a counterplay so simple exists, id rather just accept that im using a move thats slightly outclassed but still just as good, then risk losing a game because im greedy and someone decided to capitalize on it out of spite.