Imo, Baton Pass teams should be nerfed simply because it takes minimal skill to utilize it, I guess a nerf such as the banning of the ability 'Magic Bounce'+Baton Pass should be banned. This will promote more creative team building as to allow the players who utilize this play style to venture more into how Baton Pass is played.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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6: Critical Hits now deal x1.5 damage instead of x2, meaning a Baton Pass chain is less likely to be destroyed by a random critical.
7: 100% Critical Hits can be achieved by passing Focus Energy [+2 Ratio, which puts you at 50%] and the receiver having a Scope Lens. This means a receiver can freely ignore any defensive bonuses the opposition team set up. [Baton Pass + Focus Energy being on Scizor from the top of my head]
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There are other team archetypes like DeoSharp which are nearly or just as formulaic as Baton Pass and require comparatively little skill or thought to utilize and construct, so it's doubtful that this alone is going to be a valid reason to nerf/ban it.
Oh man, I was meaning to mention the crit mechanics change too, but there you go.
Anyway, the end result of it is that not only are weaker attacks overall being thrown at BP teams, but even when they crit they're unlikely to OHKO the BP team members.
And are we sure that without Scolipede, BP teams are gonna be balanced? Sure, neither Ninjask nor Whirlipede are decent replacements, but Ninjask can still do the Sub/Protect shuffle to get to +2/+3/+4 Speed, then pass to the chain. And Agility Zapdos can also build up speed, and Vaporeon can run a moveset of Scald/Acid Armor/Baton Pass/Aqua Ring to boost def in addition to dealing with most Physical Attackers.
Replacing lead Scolipede with lead Ninjask just means a BP chain will have a harder time restarting the chain, but won't affect their attempts to start the first one. Replacing Scolipede with Zapdos or Jolteon means they'll have an initial difficulty starting, but once a few def/off/ingrain/sub boosts get passed to them they're free to start boosting agility, especially since Zapdos threatens a good swath of the metagame.
What I'm concerned about just banning Scolipede is not that he's broken outside of BP teams, but the possibility that BP teams are still broken even without him. Harder to use? Yes, definitely. But what if Scoli is not the sole broken thing?
I hate playing against Deosharp, but to say that it takes the same amount of skill to use as baton pass is a gross mischaracterization. Baton pass teams are by far easier to rack up wins with. No other playstyle or team type offers as many guaranteed win scenarios based on team preview alone as baton pass. Not to mention there is far less of a chance to make bad plays with baton pass, as the plays are far more obvious and way less risky.
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I feel that although Baton Pass "guarantees" wins at Team Preview, it's just another team archetype that has to be dealt with. Dealing with Stall, for example, is the same way: if you don't have a way to break past stall, then you're going to lose. I find that a nerf to a playstyle solely based on the fact that players don't want to deal with it is a bit silly. Roar and Whirlwind don't just "delay the inevitable", they break open a vulnerable point in the team which allows you to start dismantling it. It's not impossible to deal with and a nerf to a valid playstyle is silly.
I'm guessing it's because while entry hazards only put you at a disadvantage but won't guarantee a loss for you (unless you rely heavily on something like volca, in which case you should have a way to deal with them), while if you don't have something to stop a baton pass team, you're pretty much screwed.
There is one significant difference, and that is the ease in which scolo can obtain defensive boosts as well as speed boosts. At +1 speed, he outspeeds MOST unboosted physical threats. This allows him to setup an iron defense and be at +2 defense before taking his first hit. A +2 scolo has defensive stats very similar to that of a deo-d, which is absolutely stupid. Ninjask has no way to achieve that kind of phys bulk, and therefore in the face of a threat, he must pass to an ally. That ally must take a (hopefully) very strong hit on the switch in at +0 defense. Given that at +0, most BP members are kinda frail, this can actually break the team.
Something centralizing the metagame should be banned.
If you need to have haze/roar/whirlwind/Taunt on every team (and sometimes it's not even enough lol) to beat BP, then it should be banned. It doesn't take any skill to build it and to play it, and it's a cheap way to win.
But it shouldn't be ban only in XY OU imo, it's still painful in BW OU for example, in 4G gliscor+double screen+gross/luke/jirachi are pretty cheap too but it's not as annoying and as played as 5BP+Espeon. We should put a limit as one BP user per team, things like subjolteon+gyarados are nowhere near overpowered for example.
If you need to have haze/roar/whirlwind/Taunt on every team (and sometimes it's not even enough lol) to beat BP, then it should be banned. It doesn't take any skill to build it and to play it, and it's a cheap way to win.
But it shouldn't be ban only in XY OU imo, it's still painful in BW OU for example, in 4G gliscor+double screen+gross/luke/jirachi are pretty cheap too but it's not as annoying and as played as 5BP+Espeon. We should put a limit as one BP user per team, things like subjolteon+gyarados are nowhere near overpowered for example.
I really agree with this. Scolipede does allow for quick boosts except when facing fly spam, but he is not the broken part. Teams with Agility Zapdos do just as well..all it takes is one speed boost to outspeed everything on a stall team, or two to outspeed most everybody else, and it's not hard to do given Zapdos' bulk. And Scoli definitely isn't broken by himself. He shouldn't be banned just for the support he provides to one niche playstyle. When Baton Pass sees Gen 5 Rain-Team usage, then maybe consider banning one poke, but even then they did a complex ban. Banning Magic Bounce + having baton pass on team members, which would mean Espeon/Absol couldn't be used on a full BP team, seems like a great option as it doesn't have much if any collateral damage. Also still supporting a BP user limit, but with the aforementioned ban full baton pass teams could still be used, just not with Magic Bounce.
I used a team in 5th gen to curse umbreon+speed boost ninjask in UU. It worked for the most part, won some small tournaments. Had I had it this gen with Scol+Mew (bulk up+ID+Speed boost), I'm sure I could easily accomplish something of a similar effect.
So yeah, I like baton pass' concept in small scales. Above half a team is really a baton pass team, but I think limiting the pass amount isn't really cutting the problem. Still, Baton pass + stored power is a no-no. Same with baton pass + ingrain. Maybe even Espeon + Scol +Baton pass on one or both. Combine those all and you destroy the power it has but still allow a pass to Espeon with stored power. No ingrain, so mold breaker works with roar/taunt.
So yeah, I like baton pass' concept in small scales. Above half a team is really a baton pass team, but I think limiting the pass amount isn't really cutting the problem. Still, Baton pass + stored power is a no-no. Same with baton pass + ingrain. Maybe even Espeon + Scol +Baton pass on one or both. Combine those all and you destroy the power it has but still allow a pass to Espeon with stored power. No ingrain, so mold breaker works with roar/taunt.
The metagame will shift and change over time. This happens with pretty much every game. If BP is warping the meta game to a point where it is the new metagame then good for it.
A strategy shouldn't be removed because it counters the current metagame, it should have some time to play out and see where it is going. If it dominates the meta by an overwhelming amount with no counter play in sight then it should be subject to be banned. Without extensive testing and a solid reason to ban it, there should be no ban.
It does take skill to both build and play baton pass teams in my opinion, you have to be able to predict what your opponent is doing or risk being hazed. Along with that one broken link in the BP chain almost always spells doom for the team and crits can ruin it if the sub gets broken.
Imo the goal of smogon is to have a high competitive level for pokemon, with all the guides/article about strategy and stuff, baton pass doesn't give anything but frustration, you doesn't gain level or anything from it, you can have a great ratio with your BP while still being the worst player on earth, i don't think i'm the only one who stopped laddering because after 1700 points there is nothing but BP and it's 1/ Not fun to play against 2/You don't learn anything from it.
The fact that it's a free-gg even before it started against teams without haze is the best reason to ban it.
The fact that it's a free-gg even before it started against teams without haze is the best reason to ban it.
i agree its nearly impossible to deal with espeon +scolipede combo
Even if you predict you cant phaze him out with Magic Bounce or a sound proof mon on the opponents team , even if you break the chain somehow most BP can work on their own and get the chain started again
On the last part are you seriously saying that we should rely in hax ?
In the past there was only 1 speed boost mon used and he couldn't get defensive boots on its own and was very frail , that changed
This strategy needs a nerf asap
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Agreed, it does take skill to build baton pass teams. But the building was done by excellent players, and those who crave ladder points simply use the same team that was designed by a far superior player. The simple fact is that this whole concept of baton pass being OP is due to one specific team (where one or two mons may vary). So while it does take skill to build a successful BP team, the overwhelming truth is that no new teams are being created - everyone just takes credit for someone else's work.
Does this mean that every team has to run Nasty Plot Taunt Thundurus, Taunt/Roar Mega Gyrados, or any of the gimmicks mentioned in this thread that supposobly counter BP just to stand an inkling of a chance against full BP teams? That is overcentralizing the meta. Kangaskanite over cetralized the meta by forcing every team to run Sableye or Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn and that was banned.
It has been proven in this thread that full Baton Pass teams are broken. dEnIsSs reached the top of the ladder using the BP team. Many of the people who need to ladder in order to vote in suspect tests use BP to achieve the required ranking. It does not need any official suspect test.
As Jarrod ninjad me above, the perfect BP team and the entire playstyle has already been figured out. You just use dEnIsSss' team or replace Mr. Mime with Zapdos to protect against fly spam. Any person who has a basic understanding of Pokemon can use BP and get decently high on the ladder. You don't need a knowledge of the metagame to do well.
There is a difference in one singular pokemon being required on every team or you are more likely than not to lose and a whole strategy that all six pokemon are made for working together. Not every team has to run those counter pokemon, those are just the teams that will win vs BP more often. Different games have different strategies, in MOBA games certain picks counter other picks and something in turn counters them. Just because the meta right now can't deal with this strategy, it can easily change to defeating it. Reaching the top of the ladder shouldn't matter for banning, if a strategy counters the meta, counter it back, don't just start banning stuff. I understand that this team was made very well by higher level players, but in every game you see lower level players copying higher level players strategy and skill.
In the end, I feel it should only be put up for ban if it takes over the metagame with no counter play in sight.
You can't counter Baton Pass. That's the difference. In MOBA games *cough* LoL *cough* you know what your enemy will pick. In Pokemon, you can't change your team when you see your opponent. If you run a BP countering team, you will get destroyed by non-BP. Do you really struggle to understand that?
If you do not bring a BP counter you will lose to BP. Its that simple. Unless the BP player makes a huge misplay or gets hazed a bit, you will lose. And even if you do bring a counter you can lose. Dauude Sandstorm brought Haze Quagsire, which is considered one of the best BP counters, against Denis and he still lost.
You don't instantly lose though like in rock paper scissors. If you see the BP team come up, throw out your counter first and completely crush that team. Otherwise roar/taunt ect are still extremely useful vs other sweepers and stall teams. If you can't afford to use those powerful moves then don't and just realize that you are going to lose more often to these types of teams. The BP teams are predictable, find a way in your play style that stops them.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
After sleeping on it, I've realized that a simple ban of Baton Pass + Magic Bounce on the same Pokemon isn't enough.
Espeon has just way too many tools to work with in a Baton Pass chain. Magic Bounce blocks Taunt and Phazing. Substitute blocks Dragon Tail and Circle Throw. Stored Power is way too powerful after a few boosts. Calm Mind astronomically boosts Stored Power while making Espeon harder and harder to KO. And it also has Baton Pass in case it runs into a Dark Type.
And those are just the 4 most potent moves. It also has dual screens and plenty of offensive moves.
The other Pokemon that makes Baton Pass more broken is Scolipede, but he's easily dealt with by Talonflame. However, if you lack Talonflame (or Prankster Taunt), Scolipede becomes a huge problem since it has Speed Boost, Iron Defense AND Swords Dance. It's Gen 4 Ninjask on crack!
The simplest way to fix this would be to either ban Espeon OR Magic Bounce (and it pains me to say that). Scolipede could also be considered, but Scolipede isn't as good without Espeon at the end of the chain while Espeon could still function well without Scolipede. So a Scolipede ban could also work if Espeon is also banned.
If you want a complex way to nerf Baton Pass, here are a few suggestions:
Baton Pass + Magic Bounce on the same team = Banned
Baton Pass on more than 2 Pokemon in a team = Banned
Scolipede with Baton Pass = Banned
Those are the 3 most reasonable complex bans that I can think of.
Espeon has just way too many tools to work with in a Baton Pass chain. Magic Bounce blocks Taunt and Phazing. Substitute blocks Dragon Tail and Circle Throw. Stored Power is way too powerful after a few boosts. Calm Mind astronomically boosts Stored Power while making Espeon harder and harder to KO. And it also has Baton Pass in case it runs into a Dark Type.
And those are just the 4 most potent moves. It also has dual screens and plenty of offensive moves.
The other Pokemon that makes Baton Pass more broken is Scolipede, but he's easily dealt with by Talonflame. However, if you lack Talonflame (or Prankster Taunt), Scolipede becomes a huge problem since it has Speed Boost, Iron Defense AND Swords Dance. It's Gen 4 Ninjask on crack!
The simplest way to fix this would be to either ban Espeon OR Magic Bounce (and it pains me to say that). Scolipede could also be considered, but Scolipede isn't as good without Espeon at the end of the chain while Espeon could still function well without Scolipede. So a Scolipede ban could also work if Espeon is also banned.
If you want a complex way to nerf Baton Pass, here are a few suggestions:
Baton Pass + Magic Bounce on the same team = Banned
Baton Pass on more than 2 Pokemon in a team = Banned
Scolipede with Baton Pass = Banned
Those are the 3 most reasonable complex bans that I can think of.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Dunhilina, the problem is that hard counters to full Baton Pass teams are very limited and extremely hard to fit into most team archetypes. You can't just asininely spam Taunt/Roar against a lead Scolipede or Smeargle. They can Protect/Magic Coat on turn one, then Baton Pass to Espeon and proceed to demolish your team from that point.
After reading many good posts in this thread, I'm starting to think that the best solution to nerf full Baton Pass chains would be limiting the use of the move Baton Pass to a given number of Pokémon on each team.
And no guys, a ban on Speed Boost is not up for discussion. Speed Boost itself isn't the problem, it only exacerbates it.
After reading many good posts in this thread, I'm starting to think that the best solution to nerf full Baton Pass chains would be limiting the use of the move Baton Pass to a given number of Pokémon on each team.
And no guys, a ban on Speed Boost is not up for discussion. Speed Boost itself isn't the problem, it only exacerbates it.
The solution in my opinion almost certainly involves limiting the amount of pokemon who can use baton pass. By doing this you limit the options BP teams have whilst battling, as you limit their ability to change into other pokemon while keeping boosts. I don't think banning the usage of MB & BP on the same pokemon is the solution here, because Espeon can make use of baton pass as a solo set aside from full baton pass teams, it feels overzealous to take away something good espeon has when it's not necessary.
It's important we change baton pass so that it's not such a bane on team building, but so you still have to perhaps consider having options to use against it. Afterall, it's a valid playstyle it just needs to be toned down and easier to counter, by limiting the amount of pokemon with baton pass on a single team it makes it easier to end the chain by walling, revenge killing, whatever.
It's important we change baton pass so that it's not such a bane on team building, but so you still have to perhaps consider having options to use against it. Afterall, it's a valid playstyle it just needs to be toned down and easier to counter, by limiting the amount of pokemon with baton pass on a single team it makes it easier to end the chain by walling, revenge killing, whatever.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
With all respect to the OU tiering council, I don't think that limiting the number of Pokemon with Baton Pass wouldn't help that much (unless it's limited to 1), since Scolipede can still get up some Speed Boosts, get up and Iron Defense, Pass, and go into a Calm Minding Espeon with Stored Power.
So unless you mean limiting Baton Pass to only one Pokemon on a team, I still feel that the Scolipede-Espeon combination is a bit too much.
The thing is that forces more roles on a smaller pool of Pokemon, which means that, if played correctly by the opponent, it becomes much harder to pass and sweep. It's a lot easier to set up a chain with six Pokemon that can reliably pass in and set up on a very large amount of the metagame than (for example) three Pokemon that need to accomplish the same goal.
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