Battle Mechanics Research

[Linneus]

run away does not ignore trapping abilities.

I assume that includes trapping moves as well?

 

[sb879]

I assume that includes trapping moves as well?

yes, it does. also, saying that run away does not ignore trapping abilities was poor phrasing on my part. rather, it doesn't ignore the aspect of them that prevents switching. you can run away from pokemon that have these abilities, though obviously this is irrelevant for multiplayer.

also, symbiosis will trigger if its ally's eject button was used. it's a little funky- the item is consumed, and the pokemon is recalled. then, symbiosis is triggered, passing the item. then finally, you're brought to your pokemon screen to send out a new pokemon.

 

[Forsety]

The focus energy has been known for awhile. Focus energy and a high crit move is an auto-crit. It was not tested with a high-crit item but it was assumed to also be an autocrit, unless high-crit moves were now more stages than items. Stick gives the same amount of boost as focus energy, so farfetch'd with a stick will always crit with high crit moves.

The problem so far is that it seems like the crit stages are completely different and no one seems to know exactly how yet. Focus energy or stick alone seem to do around 50% crit, but super-luck and high crit move seem to do in the 66%-75% range. This would imply it is not as simple as +3 stages being 100% and focus energy being +2 stages. Additionally just a high crit move alone seems to do somewhere around 15-25%. Of course it could just be that the sample sizes used to get these estimates were rather poor.

Well throwing my hat into the ring I've been trying to get some tests on +3 stage critical rate, basically High Crit move + Scope Lens. In previous gens +3 would have been a 25% critical rate, however in three sets of 100 attacks I've done I've gotten fluctuating following results as 29/100, 50/100 and 39/100. (By that time I flipped my shit from the boredom of Cross Poison/Night Slashing random stuff so don't expect even more from me)

I know it's not anywhere near large enough a sample to draw any conclusion from. But one thing can be speculated is that it's pretty much unlikely +3 has remained at 25% and +3 and above critical stages have been increased maybe to the old +4 rate of 33.3% or higher.

Far as I know I read somewhere else as well some people have already done tests on +1 and +2 critical and the general pattern indicated critical had remained at 6.25% and 12.5% respectfully for those stages but don't quote me on that.

Since Focus Energy has been confirmed to get a flat 50% crit rate and anything higher seems to be a 100% critical it could be guessed that maybe what has happened is that the critical rates for +3 and above have been moved up? So hypothetically speaking something like, +3 = 33.3%, +4 = 50% and +5 = 66% and a new +6 for 100%? It'd remain consistent at least with Focus Energy granting +2 crit and high crit move granting +1 giving you +4.

 

[NMcCoy]

I think there's a much simpler explanation available - the crit stages are now +0, +1, +2, +3, and they are something like 1/16, 1/8, 1/2, 1. High crit moves, scope lens, super luck, and max affection are +1; Stick, Lucky Punch, and Focus Energy are +2. This explanation fits all of my personal experience and testing, as well as the data that others have reported.

 

[ctom42]

Well throwing my hat into the ring I've been trying to get some tests on +3 stage critical rate, basically High Crit move + Scope Lens. In previous gens +3 would have been a 25% critical rate, however in three sets of 100 attacks I've done I've gotten fluctuating following results as 29/100, 50/100 and 39/100. (By that time I flipped my shit from the boredom of Cross Poison/Night Slashing random stuff so don't expect even more from me)

I know it's not anywhere near large enough a sample to draw any conclusion from. But one thing can be speculated is that it's pretty much unlikely +3 has remained at 25% and +3 and above critical stages have been increased maybe to the old +4 rate of 33.3% or higher.

Far as I know I read somewhere else as well some people have already done tests on +1 and +2 critical and the general pattern indicated critical had remained at 6.25% and 12.5% respectfully for those stages but don't quote me on that.

Since Focus Energy has been confirmed to get a flat 50% crit rate and anything higher seems to be a 100% critical it could be guessed that maybe what has happened is that the critical rates for +3 and above have been moved up? So hypothetically speaking something like, +3 = 33.3%, +4 = 50% and +5 = 66% and a new +6 for 100%? It'd remain consistent at least with Focus Energy granting +2 crit and high crit move granting +1 giving you +4.

This is interesting because everything I have read and everything me and my friends have tested has shown that +1 is definitely much higher than 12.5%, and that +2 (what you are calling +3) is easily at least 50% if not much higher. Like I said my personal test of super luck + high crit move got me 75/100, which could just be me getting really lucky but I can't see that as being the same as your guess that its 25%. My friend tested just high crit moves alone and got 15% on one trial of 100 uses and 25% on the other.

I think there's a much simpler explanation available - the crit stages are now +0, +1, +2, +3, and they are something like 1/16, 1/8, 1/2, 1. High crit moves, scope lens, super luck, and max affection are +1; Stick, Lucky Punch, and Focus Energy are +2. This explanation fits all of my personal experience and testing, as well as the data that others have reported.

I'm inclined to think it's something along these lines, although I don't believe those are the exact values (I could be wrong though). In my experience it seems more like 1/16, 1/5, 2/3, 1. However that seems like a kind of random progression so there is a good chance I am wrong. I would not be surprised if it was 1/16, 1/4, 1/2 ,1 either. I definitely think that the first stage above the base crit rate is higher than 1/8 though.

edit: Ok I'm gonna do a trial of 500 hits with my super luck absol and a high crit move. Only reason this is worth it is because I have 4 pickupers with me trying to find leftovers. If I don't have enough leftovers by the time I finish I might do an attempt with just super-luck and a regular move.

 

[ctom42]

Ok, so I know I said that I was going to do 500 trials, but I feel confident calling it at 250. I have 123 crits out of 250 hits for 49.2%. It has been hovering around 50% the entire time so I think this is good enough. This makes sense because super luck and a high crit move is +2 stages, just like focus energy and stick. They all seem to give a 50% chance.

Right now it looks like it works like this

1: 6.75%
2: ???
3: 50%
4: 100%

I'm gonna let someone else figure out what 2 stages (+1) is.

 

[Forsety]

This is interesting because everything I have read and everything me and my friends have tested has shown that +1 is definitely much higher than 12.5%, and that +2 (what you are calling +3) is easily at least 50% if not much higher. Like I said my personal test of super luck + high crit move got me 75/100, which could just be me getting really lucky but I can't see that as being the same as your guess that its 25%. My friend tested just high crit moves alone and got 15% on one trial of 100 uses and 25% on the other.

Sorry if there is some confusion, what I refer to as '+1' is basic crit rate seeing all moves have a crit rate, it's just how I like to work with them.

Your friends trial with basic high crit move is actually consistent I think with the old crit rates so it's unlikely +1/+2 has changed at all (or +0/+1 as you go by?).

In general Super Luck + High crit move should give the same crit stage as Scope Lens + High Crit move I recall, so provided Super Luck and Scope Lens remained the same they should coincide.

But I'm actually in agreement with you that Scope Lens + High crit move could possibly be as high as 50% or something very very close to that level, assuming I simply had bad luck (which pretty much sums up Pokemon anyway) the values are certainly feasible since one set did have me reaching as high as you did. Only problem is narrowing down the exact rate...

So maybe a better assumption is the crit stages have remained at 5 levels as before but they have simply scaled them higher for the last 3 levels? Basically modified crit, all in all though with the way things are pointing, it is definitely a very good day to be a Sniper user.

 

[ctom42]

So maybe a better assumption is the crit stages have remained at 5 levels as before but they have simply scaled them higher for the last 3 levels? Basically modified crit, all in all though with the way things are pointing, it is definitely a very good day to be a Sniper user.

So as far as how I refer to them 1 is the base. +1 is one beyond the base and thus 2. But anyway the problem with your assumption about there still being levels up to 5 is that every test has shown that 4 gets you 100%. Focus Energy + High crit move is +3 or 4 levels and is 100%. Stick + high crit move is +3 or 4 and 100%. Super Luck, High Crit move, and Scope lens are +1 each for a total of +3, which is 4 total levels and is 100%. There is no room for a 5th lvl. Several people including myself have tested +2 or level 3 now and have all agreed that it is 50%. There is another thread dedicated to the critical hit stages I have posted this on as well and someone there confirmed that 250 trials is more than enough to determine the rate to within about +/- 2%, statistically speaking.

The only thing I think needs to still be researched is how +1 or 2 total stages has changed.

From a mathematical standpoint you would think there would be some kind of logical progression. However I cannot think of a pattern that fits 1/16, x, 1/2 ,1. I might just be missing something, maybe it's some exponential pattern or something, but I'm just not seeing it. The other possibility is that there is no pattern and gamefreak just kinda chose the values.

 

[Forsety]

Ah sorry, my misunderstanding was I didn't realize +4 had already been proven to be 100%, I simply assumed it was something close to 100% since in the old system Focus Energy + High Crit move + Scope Lens would have been +5, that actually explains a lot more if they simply simplified the crit system. But it does leave the matter of the percentage jumps to be highly peculiar.

Has it also been proven yet whether none of the crit boosting effects/items have been buffed? Though I doubt this very much to be the case though if you're as sure of it as you sound.

 

[ctom42]

Ah sorry, my misunderstanding was I didn't realize +4 had already been proven to be 100%, I simply assumed it was something close to 100% since in the old system Focus Energy + High Crit move + Scope Lens would have been +5, that actually explains a lot more if they simply simplified the crit system. But it does leave the matter of the percentage jumps to be highly peculiar.

Has it also been proven yet whether none of the crit boosting effects/items have been buffed? Though I doubt this very much to be the case though if you're as sure of it as you sound.

What we know. super luck = scope lens = high crit move, in terms of boost.
Focus energy = stick = any two of the above.
Focus Energy + any one of the top = 100%. All three of the top = 100%

I suppose its possible that it does not actually reach 100% and is something really really close like 97.5% and that everyone has gotten really lucky, but it is unlikely. So from what we know in order for that 100% to be level 5 (a total of +4) the crit stages each of these gives would have to have changed. Lets call the first row with super luck, scope lens (presumabely razor claw) and high crit moves A. Lets call focus energy and stick B.

1 + A + A + A = 100% = 3A +1
1 + B + A = 100%

with these 2 equations we can solve for A in terms of B and get B = 2A. It is impossible for there to be 5 stages with this knowledge. There could be in theory 7 stages if A was 2 and B was 4, or any number of stages N= 1+3x, but since there are only 2 known values A and B, it's pretty arbitrary what they are exactly since it all reduces down to 4 stages by calling A=1 and B=2. Without looking at the code we could not prove it was not codded so that A=3 and B=6 for example giving 10 stages, but since we would not be able to hit any stage other than 1, 4, 7, and 10 it would be functionally the same as 1, 2, 3, 4. Now if anyone can overturn the starting relationships about the values adding up to 100 or about which boost are equal, then that would certainly change things.

Sorry for all the math, I probably overcomplicated it, but I wanted to prove the point that as the info currently stands having come in from people there are functionally 4 stages.

 

[Forsety]

No that is perfectly fine I understood all of that, I just wanted to make clear as things are standing those bases had already been covered and how the conclusion was reached. As it stands this is probably one of the more significant battle mechanics of this generation as it means 'critical play' is more controllable than it ever has been and more balanced at the same time.

So effectively all that is left is to work out is the crit rate of a regular stage 2 crit aka just a plain high crit move?

 

[sb879]

we also need to see if chansey's lucky punch is a +1 critical boost or +2 like farfetch'd's stick. does anyone have one?

 

[Spenstar]

If a Pokemon uses Metronome, a,d you use mimic, do you copy the move selected by Metronome? If so maybe we can test signature moves to see if any of them got changed

 

[Stellar]

we also need to see if chansey's lucky punch is a +1 critical boost or +2 like farfetch'd's stick. does anyone have one?

Lucky Punch Chansey crit 11/20 times against wild Pokémon using Power-Up Punch. It definitely appears to be a +2 boost.

Side note: level 30 Chansey can't OHKO level 3 Scatterbug with a critical PUP. :[

 

[Marty]

I was wondering how Electrify interacted with the moves that have new and interesting type matchups (Freeze-Dry and Flying Press), so with the help of V4Victini we got to testing. We used a Lombre to test both since Water/Grass happens to be perfect defensively for quick confirmation on this.

Freeze-Dry: JMNG-WWWW-WWW2-NGFV
Electrify Freeze-Dry loses its 'super effective on Water-types' property and is just a regular Electric attack. In the video Lombre takes neutral damage from it rather than super effective.

Flying Press: 9TPG-WWWW-WWW2-NGGE
Electrify Flying Press is an Electric/Flying attack. In the video Lombre takes super effective damage from it. Charizard takes super effective damage from it as well, just to make sure it wasn't Fighting/Electric/Flying or something crazy like that.

 

[Linneus]

Freeze-Dry: JMNG-WWWW-WWW2-NGFV
Electrify Freeze-Dry loses its 'super effective on Water-types' property and is just a regular Electric attack. In the video Lombre takes neutral damage from it rather than super effective.

Wait, it's not technically losing its ability to hit Water-type Pokémon super-effectively. Lombre takes x4 damage because Freeze-Dry is hitting it with Ice-type damage (therefore both Grass and Water are weak to it), but now it's hitting it with Electric, so therefore only Water is weak to it, and the move doesn't calculate x2 for Electric, x2 for special effect and x0.5 for Grass resistance. The electric typing just assimilates the special ability. Essentially, the ability and the Electric typing don't stack.

I hope I worded that in a way that makes sense.

 

[Marty]

Essentially, the ability and the Electric typing don't stack.

Hmm, after thinking about it more I believe they actually do stack, but the 'super effective on Water-types' part overrides whatever the matchup would be against Water from the attack type.
Normally Ice is not very effective against Water and this special property overrides that to make it super effective. Likewise, normally Electric is super effective against Water and this special property overrides that to make it super effective, making it seem like they don't stack or the property gets ignored.
Very interesting way for Game Freak to have implemented it.

 

[Thorhammer]

So if there was, say, a Bug-type version of Electrify used on Freeze Dry, it'd hit Lombre for 4x damage, and a Fairy-type Electrify would make Freeze Dry do 2x damage.

 

[UltiMario]

Does Electrify Flying Press damage Shedinja? It might be weak to flying but it's also immune to Electric, but by ability rather than type like Fighting is.

 

[alphatron]

I hope I'm not just repeating what somebody else already said. I know it has been mentioned that frisk hits both opponents in doubles. I thought this would work in a similar way in triple battles, but phantump only frisked the pokemon who was directly in front of him.

 

[je5us]

I hope I'm not just repeating what somebody else already said. I know it has been mentioned that frisk hits both opponents in doubles. I thought this would work in a similar way in triple battles, but phantump only frisked the pokemon who was directly in front of him.

in the battle subway frisk worked on all 3 pokemon, with the frisk pokemon NOT being in the middle

 

[LastFootnote]

I hope I'm not just repeating what somebody else already said. I know it has been mentioned that frisk hits both opponents in doubles. I thought this would work in a similar way in triple battles, but phantump only frisked the pokemon who was directly in front of him.

Are you sure all of the opponents had items?

 

[sairenkao]

Not surprising, but Gastro Acid is still in affect even after Mega evolution. My Abomasnow got hit by Gastro Acid and then Mega Evolved. Snow Warning did not occur, nor did Hail.

 

[ctom42]

Not surprising, but Gastro Acid is still in affect even after Mega evolution. My Abomasnow got hit by Gastro Acid and then Mega Evolved. Snow Warning did not occur, nor did Hail.

I actually find that to be very surprising. Should we test other affects like worry seed or skill swap, or do you think that they work differently because they don't suppress the ability?

 

[Parallel]

I don't recall it being mentioned elsewhere, but apparently Sky Drop now has a weight limit on it.
Tested with Dragonite using Sky Drop on Wailord.
Which is ironic, because isn't wailord actually really light?