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Gen 6 Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by NOVED, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
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    Well, every set that doesn't say 'Common Showdown' or 'Randbats' is specifically for BSS. Like the thread for the calc says(I think), the calc is still very much incomplete and we're still always working on it.
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  2. Omastar68

    Omastar68

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    Lol ok. Not trying to be mean. I like the calc, and you can tell from many of my overly specialized EV spreads I use it a lot.
  3. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
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    update

    Bisharp: B -> B-

    Lapras: unranked -> B-

    Talonflame: staying A+
  4. cant say

    cant say Banned juicer.
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    I'm not sure you read into what you're doing very often at all...

    Like NOVED said, we've taken the base code for the calculator from the guys who made it for VGC, and they got it from the PS calc. So the "common showdown" sets are an old relic. I haven't removed them yet because they're mostly better than having nothing on certain mons, because most of the time they're correct. Just don't take them as gospel lol, make sure to read everything carefully, including the calculation you're copy-pasting here....
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  5. Anirav

    Anirav

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    Nominating cloyster to B-. Pretty much just gonna quote what I said earlier.
    Also adding on to that, 8 of the top 200 teams had cloyster last season.
  6. jroxas

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    Agree, B- or maybe even B seems appropriate. A few of the Japanese players noted a rise in Hippowdon use, so Cloyster accordingly getting better makes sense.

    Also it's my one of my favorite mons, which may or may not affect my opinion. :P
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  7. freekhoorn

    freekhoorn

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    I agree, because cloyster has bulk (really one of the highest defense stats of all pokemon) and an incredible fast way of setting up with shell smash it can set up very easily and then it can deal an awful lot of damage and break sashes and subs with skill link rockblast/icicle spear. No less than B for me.
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  8. Omastar68

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    I completely agree that Cloyster is B- at least. I mean Feraligatr is B-, and Cloyster is at least as good. It still needs support and isn't just something you throw on whatever team, but that's how B rank stuff is.

    Cloyster's defenses are kind of disappointing, even on the physical side given its low HP and the fact that it can't afford to invest in defenses. But when it sets up it's s pretty mean to most stuff, and can handle quite a few things without set up as well.
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  9. Fischgrat

    Fischgrat

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    I try to finally get into BSS, even if I am probably pretty late since Sun/Moon is not too far away anymore, but whatever. Using this thread as one resource to learn something about how the Format 'works', I really started to wonder what the intention of the D Rank/the listed D rank pokemon is. Are they really relevant enough to have influence on the meta so that they should be listed over other pokemon (since I guess you can make other pokemon 'useable' too that aren't listed at all)?
    According to the usage statistics some Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Gastrodon are used more often than the majority or even all of the D ranked Pokemon. After playing on cart for a few days and watching quite some battles on Showdown at different times, I haven't seen even one of them in action. I understand that they can be used on the right teams, but is that really the intention of this thread? In the right hands many more Pokemon could probably surprise the opponent and score a win, but for me as a beginner I don't see much benefits from having these listed. I get a similar feeling from the Pokemon that still are ranked as D on here, even if I see that they have their niches that can be effective against opponents that maybe ignored them on team Preview.

    Don't get me wrong, this thread is fantastic because the discussion about particular Pokemon helps immensely on understanding why one or another Pokemon is useable or why it can pull its weight, as well as what you can expect when you face it and ultimately what it's weaknesses are. Reading the discussion on here helped and still helps me a lot. Keep it up :)

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but since in this Format (and probably any other Format/Tier) is limited to a certain amount of Pokemon that are good/useable in many situations and as such are viable to the meta, I feel like there doesn't have to be a D Rank to make this viability ranking complete.
    When i have a better grasp of the Format i will maybe say more on specific Pokemon :) But that probably has to wait a few weeks.

    Cheers!
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  10. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
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    The pokemon in D rank are honestly really subjective and there probably could be a lot more or less, it's just that so little is really known about the viability of mons that would probably go there. D rank is not really meant to be something we would encourage players to use, same for C ranks and even some of the low Bs. B+ up to S are the mons you mostly want to be using, especially for new players, and for the most part that is where anything viable will be. Some things might not be totally accurate as viability rankings can never really truely be "accurate". Its all mostly community opinion but we try to get as close as we can. My advice would just be to ignore C-D if you want to be competitive while learning the format.

    It could argued that there shouldn't even be a D or C rank and only show the really viable mons but there are some players out there who may want to use something for fun or they want to try out something new and the lower ranks can give those guys an idea of stuff that can work even if its not the most viable thing.
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  11. Theorymon

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    Sorta a minor thing because of its usage (its a bit above #50), but I think Swampert should probably be ranked differently than Mega Swampert. For a while now, Swampert has had more usage as a Stealth Rock setter than a swift swim sweeper (Sitrus + Rocky Helmet is used more than Swampertite). Not sure where I'd rank it, but its at least a decent Stealth Rocker that does better than Hippowdon vs some threats such as Mamoswine. Runs a similar strat too involving Yawn, though it doesn't have instant recovery of course.
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  12. GateCreeper

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    I was about to bring up this rank change myself lol.

    I personally think that Mega Swampert should be ranked down to B- while Swampert stays in B, after some playing around I've done on cart and PS with both mons. It takes a while for Mega Swampert to get a sweep going in the rain and there are many mons that can prevent that from happening, since it doesn't just break everything in its way. Swampert, on the other hand, does its role well as a Stealth Rock setter by having good matchups against other Rock setters like Mamoswine and Hippowdon. Sucks that it misses out on recovery though.

    I'd show some videos of Swampert in action but I've only run into low ladder matches on cart as of now so there's little reason to show it.
  13. freekhoorn

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    I think mega aerodactyl needs to drop. It sits now at B while it is 138 in the list of used pokemon and other pokemon in that tier lare not below 68 (chandelure) except for mandibuzz who is 102. Of course user rates are not defining in viability but it is certainly an important indicator as other metas are also accepting with their borderline tiers.

    I also think D is too harsh for mega camerupt. The description says pokemon in D are severeLy ouclassed in their role but as a special trickroom sweeper mega camerupt is one of, maybe even the best there is.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  14. kamikaze

    kamikaze The King Of Games
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    [​IMG] Mega Venusaur B+ -> A

    This may be a steep rise but from using it a lot, I feel like Mega Venusaur should definitely rise out of B tier which I dont feel does it justice. It single-handedly can win games on its own esp for teams unprepared for it thanks to its massive bulk and beautiful defensive typing combined with Thick Fat.

    I generally feel comfortable bringing it unless I see.....
    Mega Salamence (yea this isnt a good matchup period)
    Charizard-Y (can stall out sun turns if needed thanks to 75% healing from synthesis in sun but otherwise zard does massive damage)
    Talonflame (it can live a Brave Bird if it needs to and do decent damage back with Sludge Bomb but you will be taking pretty heavy damage that may not let you survive future hits from pokemon in the back)

    Beyond its dual stabs Mega Venusaur's moveset can be highly unpredictable because of a wide range or move options which allow it to check its expected counters.
    HP Fire: Hit Ferrothorn, Aegislash, and Scizor
    Synthesis and Leech Seed: extremely strong sustainability options which are part of the reason why Mega Venu can straight up clean teams on its own if given the chance
    Earthquake: Lets it hit Aegislash, Heatran, and not be deadweight vs Mega Gengar which would otherwise trap and abuse it
    Sleep Powder: Lets it actually pose a threat to misc pokemon who may check it but also helps your teammates by putting any problematic pokemon to sleep

    It's also not too difficult to support. An electric flying type like Zapdos or Thundurus actually has great synergy as it helps take out threats on my uncomfortable matchup list, so Mega Venu can actually still be brought to those matchups and thrive if one efficiently deals with them. Beyond that one can run a couple more mons to deal with potential gaps based on what Mega Venu's moveset actually is, but I genuinely feel Mega Venu is able to sustain and make enough of an impact on its own where its not always heavily reliant on team support, similar to other A rank threats

    Running it on a dual mega team is also pretty dangerous as it can be benched when the matchup isnt ideal and you are free to use your secondary mega if you wish, but otherwise it can brutalize the opponent in most other matchups.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
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  15. Butterfly Sweep

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    I'd like to nominate Mienshao Unranked -> C+.

    Mienshao does not deserve a rang above C+ because it faces strong competition from other fast fighting types, such as mega Gallade, Hawlucha and most notably Terrakion, mega Medicham, mega Blaziken and mega Lopunny.

    Mienshao is severely hindered by its terrible defensive stats.

    Mienshao also competes with weavile as a fast versatile physical attacker, but lacks weavile's access to strong priority via ice shard.

    Mienshao has several important advantages over the pokemon listed above:
    Mienshao does not take up a mega slot, leaving you free to employ other megas.

    Mienshao has acces to two great abilities in reckless and regenerator (although regenerator is considerably weakened by Mienshaos bad bulk and the 3v3 format).

    While Mienshaos Special Attack is not high, it is at least decent. This means that Mienshao can run a mixed set with hp ice and a naive nature to lure in physical walls. This way Mienshao is able to score crucial 2hkos on Tankchomp and non scarfed Lando-T.

    Mienshao also has a deeper offensive movepool than the other fast fighting types with access to high jump kick, fake out, acrobatics, bounce, stone edge, poison jab, hidden power and knock off. Unlike none of the other fast fighting types except hawlucha it also has access to U-turn which synergizes well with it's regenerator ability by healing life orb damage and HJK recoil while preserving momentum.
  16. Arco223

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    While do agree that mega Camerupt is a great trick room sweeper, I have to disagree with you on moving it up because Trick Room isn't that great of a move in singles. If you use trick room in singles you need to switch to mega Camerupt in order for him to sweep, and it's not too hard of a prediction for your opponent to make and end Camerupt before it can become an issue. Add into that trick room's short duration and the fact that one of those turns will be you switching and mega Camerupt's place makes sense.
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  17. freekhoorn

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    I need to disagree with the need of switching because trick room is often set up by a mon that lunar dances out after it sets it up.
  18. Omastar68

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    "A mon?" why not just say Cress since that's clearly the mon.

    Anyways, that's still one turn of tr lost to not attacking, same as switching. Difference is just Camerupt won't be harmed with LD, and get healed to full including PP.

    Camerupt is an odd mon. It hits very hard with pretty good coverage, and also has good bulk with only two weaknesses. Sure water is a 4x one, but so many top mons have 4x weaknesses.

    Still...it's held back by having no chance against most stuff with a water attack. Suicune and Rotom-W are quite common, and there's also some Greninja(four decent water attacks to choose from, good chance it'll have one of them,) Slowbro(252/0 takes Earth Power just fine even after rocks,) Gyara, Azu, and a few other oddballs like Surf Lati twins(these also set up cms safely if that's their set,) Jellicent, Swampert, Lapras, and Gastrodon(good chance for it to take even HP Grass from full.)

    Lots of things can kill it with EQ as well. Chomp has a 75% chance even if it's just 252 atk without a boosting nature or item. It also only dies to HP Ice. Mamo dies hard to fire STAB cuz Sheer Force...but not sash. Same chance to ohko as Chomp ofc. More than a few Kang run EQ, and even those without it likely win, always if they have Fake Out and any reasonably strong attack with 100 acc. Exca is another that ofc kills with EQ, and many are sash so you're not always safe even in tr.

    Overall, Camerupt is too much of a glass cannon that needs tr. I can't see it moving up since it obviously needs tons of support, and is just too weak to common mons. It has viability in that it deals well with lots of stuff like Thund, Gengar, Aegi, Talon, etc., but I still think it belongs in the same tier as Drifblim(which I used a lot and had some success with, tho it relies very heavily on the rest of the team and is completely useless by itself 9 times out of 10.)
  19. 6tennis

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    the thing with rupt is that if it doesn't get TR it is usually losing

    most other TR users are more flexible, and can function if your cress/p2 gets bopped early, or if you just don't bring it
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  20. Arco223

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    The thing that makes camerupt so useful (tr sets) is also what makes it such a liability here since its harder to get that support and in order for any mon to be good in tr it has to be absurdly slow,which s really bad for camerupt without ample support because bss is a fast meta.


    Since it needs so much support to actually fill a niche in bss and it really doesnt work too well otherwise, especially with rotom-w, greninja, garchomp, suicune, or anything else with a good ground type attack or any water attack I think camerupt should stay down in D rank.
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  21. Butterfly Sweep

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    Has someone else used or encountered Mienshao and can share her/his opinion? Does someone have an opinion about my analysis?

    Edit: I'd like to add to the camerupt discussion that it is still faces strong competition by mega-abomasnow as a trick room sweeper. Aboma is a strong mixed/special or even pure physical sweeper with strong stabs in giga drain and most notably blizzard. Hail breaks sashes and ice shard is strong priority, making it a little bit viable outside of TR. So I do think that camerupt is outclassed as a trick room sweeper and it's D rank is justified. (I also agree that TR is not a strong playstyle in BSS)
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016
  22. Arco223

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    Regarding mega camerupt, i wont deny that it is a top tier sweeper in terms of trick room teams, if you are in a trick room with one, you are not in a good spot. I argue the viability of trick room itself in bss which is why i nominated camerupt for D rank, not due to competition from other trick room sweepers.

    Regarding your post on mienshao it can work well as a choice sweeper or even a quick check to kangaskhan, although a lot of the competition you listed isnt very common in BSS with the exceptions of M-blaze, M-lop, and terrakion to some extent.

    At most i would say mienshao is C worthy simply it has to face more fast threats, its best move (HJK) comes with a nasty side effect, there is already competition from either faster fighting types (ie m-lop, blazkien in general, m-luc), or fighting types with a better niche in general (breloom, conk)
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  23. ProjectTitan313

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    Mienshao doesn't eat the Mega slot, so I guess that's something over Lopunny and Luke, and depending on the ability it can either be a giant pain in the ass with Fake Out -> U-Turn Regenerator spam, or it can just fire absolutely nuclear Reckless HJK's. I am not joking, at all, when I say that Jolly Mienshao has 105 Speed and hits harder than Mega Mawile. Literally anything that is not immune/resistant to Fighting is 2HKO'd, at worst, by Reckless LO HJK unless it's absurdly bulky like Tangrowth. Even Skarmory gets 2HKO'd. After a Swords Dance, literally nothing switches in. Ghosts/Psychics die to +2 Knock Off, everything else dies to +2 Reckless HJK. Even without Swords Dance: 4/0 Garchomp gets OHKO'd by LO Reckless HJK. No SR, just straight up 100% -> 0% guarenteed. Garchomp, as we all know, does not simply fall over and die to neutral hits.
    Sash means it gets two hits, and with Regenerator it can preserve it fairly well. Even if its own HJK breaks it, it can U-Turn out twice to salvage it. Does lose out on some immediate KO power but you can compensate with U-Turn spam and chip damage.

    tl;dr disgustingly brutal wallbreaker. Slower balanced teams have to stomach a heavy hit and / or enjoy the plague of U-Turn spam. Faster, offensive teams have no issue with LO wallbreaker sets at all but Sash can be tricky since you have to hit it twice or set hazards, because anything faster than Mienshao simply cannot stomach a hit from it. Fun mon, but Blaziken, Terrakion, and Mega Luke really leave it in the middle of fierce competition for "Fast fighting mon that gets bagged by Landog". You could run Naive + HP Ice I guess but that set was always pretty bleh for me. Cannot switch in to anything, under any circumstance, and cannot tank anything stronger than Nidoqueen's Smack Down. 105 Speed is good but most teams have SOMETHING that can outrun it and that's really all you need. Trick Room invalidates its mere existence.

    Rank it low, under Blaziken and such; most of its competition has useful secondary STABs and don't have to rely on the potentially cringeworthy and decisive loss inducing HJK. Usually depends on Sash, never gets an opportunity to actually set up SD, and Reckless LO is something only Titan is psycho enough to use and therefor does not exist.
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  24. NOVED

    NOVED twitch.tv/novedpoke
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    Okay, sorry for the delay guys. Here's an update on the most recent noms the VR council voted on.

    Cloyster: C+ -> B
    Shell Smash is an amazing move, and Cloyster has plenty of tools to make it a successful sweeper such as Skill Link to break sashes and priority in Ice Shard. Some neagatives keep it from being higher such as it's pitiful SpDef making it very easy to bring down to sash and more vulnerable to being revenge killed.

    Mega Venusaur: Staying B+
    Fairly matchup dependent. Loses to a lot of top mons such as Mence, Talon and Gengar, all of which are very common, especially Gengar and Talon. Offensive presence is nothing amazing and defensively can still be easily pressured by common threats such as Mega Kang and SD chomp.

    Mienshao: Staying unranked
    Regenerator isn't very useful in 3v3. Reckless HJK isn't really enough power to warrant it over Blaziken and Mega Lucario. Its speed tier and coverage is also significantly worse than both. As a kang check its also rather weak as well considering it can often be KO'd by Fake Out+Sucker Punch. U-turn also isn't enough to make this worth using over better Fighting-types.

    Mega Swampert: Staying B
    Rain is a fairly strong archetype. Mega Pert sets itself apart from other Swift Swimmers decently well because of its good matchup against Thundurus and impressive physical power.

    Swampert: unranked -> B
    Very good rock setter thanks to Yawn/Roar. Compared to Hippo it has some better matchups, such as Mamoswine and Thundurus. However a lack of recovery and significantly lower defense makes it a bit worse than Hippo.

    Mega Aerodactyl: B -> C+
    Excellent speed makes this thing worth considering. But mediocre STAB moves(weak BP aerial ace and shaky accuracy Stone Edge) and bulk make it a fairly weak pick. Doesn't exactly excel at anything significant.

    Mega Camerupt: Staying D
    Bulky waters are always prevalent and having to switch Camerupt out of those will cost valuable TR turns. Fire/Ground doesn't cover anything very important and Mega Mawile is overall a much better pick for TR.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  25. Solerme

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    I know it's a pretty late nomination, with SuMo being almost live, but yet i want to nominate [​IMG]for a spot in the Viability Rankings, since even in the new Gen its tools could, imo, be pretty useful in the bss meta.

    This are my reasons:

    - Typing
    it has a unique and pretty viable type. STAB Ice Beam and Hex are pretty nice offensively, and Ghost-type is even decent defensively.

    - Movepool
    T-wave, Destiny Bond, good stabs, Bolt/Beam combo, priority with Ice Shard, Taunt.

    - Speed Tier
    110 base is pretty decent, for example it ties with Gengar, and if it mega evolves there is t-wave.


    Some calcs:

    252 SpA Froslass Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gengar: 168-200 (100.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Salamence: 244-292 (120.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Froslass Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 132-156 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Froslass Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 116-138 (69.4 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus: 134-158 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery


    To me this mon should be located in a tier that goes from C- to C+
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
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