Battle Tree Discussion and Records

I finally got the Super Doubles stamp!

The proof: 4XRW-WWWW-WWW5-JG5F

And another video if you want to laugh at the AI's idea of a rain team: CU4W-WWWW-WWW5-JGAD. Pay close attention to turn 4 or you'll miss the joke. :)

I had a close call with a Glaceon that froze my Oranguru with Blizzard before it could set up Trick Room, and Grimsley's Liepard did something similar with Thunder Wave. The team was just bulky enough to scrape by even if Trick Room failed.



The team:

Hariyama @ Burn Orb
Brave, 252 Attack, rest split about evenly among Defense and Special Defense
Guts


Fake Out
Close Combat
Knock Off
Heavy Slam

-This is a standard lead Hariyama. I used to use Rock Slide on this, but Heavy Slam is much better due to the amount of Fairies you'll be fighting. Sure, there are no Tapus, but you'll see things like Sylveon, Aromatisse, Florges, Mega Altaria, etc. that you'll want Steel or Poison coverage for. Knock Off is mainly for Psychics and Ghosts, in addition to scouting movesets. I generally Fake Out and then attack until it dies.

Oranguru @ Mental Herb
Sassy, 252 HP, 168 Defense, 90 Special Defense
Inner Focus


Instruct
Foul Play
Trick Room
Protect

This is the typical doubles Oranguru. It's much sturdier than I expected, and even took a Life Orb Greninja's Dark Pulse pretty well online. Do not use Telepathy, even if Surf/Earthquake/Discharge/whatever is tempting. Inner Focus is needed for all those Fake Outs and other flinching moves that both the AI and online players like to use. Mental Herb is mostly for Taunt.

Drampa @ Dragon Z-Crystal
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 Special Defense

Hyper Voice
Draco Meteor
Flamethrower
Protect

Z-Draco Meteor kills most things that don't resist Dragon, but a few very specially bulky things can survive it. Hyper Voice finishes off weakened Pokemon, and can do OK damage if Instructed. Otherwise it's a bit disappointing. Flamethrower helps with the odd Grass or Steel types.

Wishiwashi @ Sitrus Berry
Quiet, 252 HP, 252 Special Attack, 6 Special Defense

Muddy Water
Scald
Ice Beam
Protect

Yeah, Ice/Water is really terrible coverage, I know. But I didn't want to risk losing to Intimidate. The Sitrus Berry should probably be a confusion berry, but I don't have the right one for a Quiet nature, and Sitrus worked alright. Muddy Water is a spread move that doesn't kill your partner. Scald is more reliable than Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam saved me a couple of times against Dragon types. That, and Wishiwashi's special movepool is abysmal. All of its semi-interesting options such as Earthquake and U-Turn are physical. It does have the advantage of "out-slowing" almost everything without adding another Dark weakness like Slowbro/Slowking.
 
So after playing through tree up to the 90's or so, I feel like I have run into a pretty good variety of builds, so my question is:

What is keeping the top teams from the Maison off the leaderboards here? I know Khan got a nerf on Parental Bond, but the other trio that was popular in the Maison was Greninja, Scizor, Gliscor. Are people testing any of those teams still? Or are the new 'mons just being tested out because people were bored with the old ones?

I am trying to find a good spot for Greninja and noticed he is pretty absent from the leaderboards in the tree.
 
I just lost on battle 48 with this Trick Room team:

Oranguru @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Protect
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Instruct

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- Protect
- Bonemerang
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone

Wishiwashi @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Helping Hand (probably replacing with Protect)
- Hidden Power Grass
- Scald
- Ice Beam

Mudsdale @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- Rock Slide
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam


This is the first time I've ever used TR, and I basically just threw a few of the relevant 'mons I had together into a team, but it worked well. The loss was definitely avoidable, and would've been avoided if a Cofagrigus hadn't used Destiny Bond on Wishiwashi, but I'm sure the team can be improved a decent amount. Marowak is absolutely devastating for almost everything in the Tree, especially alongside Instruct, and Wishiwashi and Mudsdale have been pretty serviceable.

A few questions:
- What EV tweaks should I make to tank certain hits, especially on Oranguru (whose survival is usually pretty crucial)?
- Should I replace Mudsdale with something else or give it Life Orb instead of Assault Vest? It's been useful, but it definitely contributes less than Marowak and Wishiwashi.
- I was originally using a Mental Herb on Oranguru, but was finding at least in the early battles that certain OHKOs were a more frequent threat than Taunt was. Is there a good way to address both of those problems at once? (I assume leading with a partner that knows Fake Out is the best way, but I've found pairing it with Marowak, who shares its Dark weakness and uses Protect on Turn 1, seems to be pretty helpful because Marowak often gets targeted.)
- Other improvements I should make?
Well, your Oranguru would do a lot better with much more investment in defense. I use 164 while keeping Sassy and 92 points in SpD. It can tank physical hits much better and will be able to use Mental Herb more safely.

If there's one thing I've learned it's that 252 HP (with no other investment) is almost never ideal for most pokes, especially when there are certain attacks you want to keep under a specific threshhold.

Leading with a weakness shared by the setter isn't too much of a gamble until both are OHKOd by the same move; having to make that coin flip is an uncomfortable position to be in. Marowak is targeted mostly because it can be killed by the things that Oranguru can survive, if only barely.

Sitrus Berries are a thing of the past. The pinch berries that cause confusion if disliked were majorly buffed and now restore 50%. Use the one with dry flavor, which Quiet pokes prefer eating. Having said that, I think Wishiwashi's physical set is more accommodating and still allows use of Ice Beam for heavy damage on certain targets. Because it's so slow and its HP is so crappy, you may find Endeavor more useful than HP Grass. Your set looks incredibly weak given its otherwise enormous SpA.

I'm a big fan of Mudsdale and intend to try an Assault Vest variant myself, but otherwise have no experience with it. I wouldn't want to share a water weakness with two pokes, myself.
 
Well, your Oranguru would do a lot better with much more investment in defense. I use 164 while keeping Sassy and 92 points in SpD. It can tank physical hits much better and will be able to use Mental Herb more safely.

Leading with a weakness shared by the setter isn't too much of a gamble until both are OHKOd by the same move; having to make that coin flip is an uncomfortable position to be in. Marowak is targeted mostly because it can be killed by the things that Oranguru can survive, if only barely.
Yeah, I'll try that EV spread. Thanks. Because Marowak uses Protect on Turn 1 and almost always has the speed advantage afterward, I haven't had both leads be KOd, but it does have some risk. I'll probably breed a Hariyama and insert that as a lead instead of Mudsdale and see how that works.
 
So after playing through tree up to the 90's or so, I feel like I have run into a pretty good variety of builds, so my question is:

What is keeping the top teams from the Maison off the leaderboards here? I know Khan got a nerf on Parental Bond, but the other trio that was popular in the Maison was Greninja, Scizor, Gliscor. Are people testing any of those teams still? Or are the new 'mons just being tested out because people were bored with the old ones?

I am trying to find a good spot for Greninja and noticed he is pretty absent from the leaderboards in the tree.
I would include Suicune in that group as well. These are all auxiliary Pokemon that were meant to come in on rare threats to a team's main set-up sweeper. The main reasons they can't do that as well anymore:

1. Power creep/new Megas. Mostly self-explanatory; something like Mega Metagross would need to be relatively unlucky (no Meteor Mash attack raise, no critical hits, no Zen Headbutt flinches) to not beat a Suicune that switches in on it.

2. Extreme predictability of past trainers. Almost all of them only used one set, so you could switch your passive defensive Pokemon in on something on turn 1 and be extremely confident the opponent wasn't going to boost in your face. Now pretty much everything has 8 or 16 possible moves for at least the first turn. In addition, pretty much every set was either 4 attacks (with a weak offensive item so it could easily be walled after the main STAB or super-effective option was stalled out), a stat booster with zero offensive EVs, or something that was extremely passive and set-up bait for almost anything with Sub/Rest and a boosting move. Now there are a few more threatening boosters as well as stuff that can hit decently hard off the bat while also packing a status move (Mega Aggron/Lopunny).

3. New STAB/coverage combos. For example, Electric type opponents have generally sucked outside of their ability to induce paralysis, and almost all of them could be dealt with by switching back and forth between a Water and a Ground type (or by manipulating Protean to take resisted hits in Greninja's case). That's not possible with Pokemon like Mega Ampharos and the different Rotoms.
 
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I would include Suicune in that group as well. These are all auxiliary Pokemon that were meant to come in on rare threats to a team's main set-up sweeper. The main reasons they can't do that as well anymore:

1. Power creep/new Megas. Mostly self-explanatory; something like Mega Metagross would need to be relatively unlucky (no Meteor Mash attack raise, no critical hits, no Zen Headbutt flinches) to not beat a Suicune that switches in on it.

2. Extreme predictability of past trainers. Almost all of them only used one set, so you could switch your passive defensive Pokemon in on something on turn 1 and be extremely confident the opponent wasn't going to boost in your face. Now pretty much everything has 8 or 16 possible moves for at least the first turn. In addition, pretty much every set was either 4 attacks (with a weak offensive item so it could easily be walled after the main STAB or super-effective option was stalled out), a stat booster with zero offensive EVs, or something that was extremely passive and set-up bait for almost anything with Sub/Rest and a boosting. Now there are a few more threatening boosters as well as stuff that can hit decently hard off the bat while also packing a status move (Mega Aggron/Lopunny).

3. New STAB/coverage combos. For example, Electric type opponents have generally sucked outside of their ability to induce paralysis, and almost all of them could be dealt with by switching back and forth between a Water and a Ground type (or by manipulating Protean to take resisted hits). That's not possible with Pokemon like Mega Ampharos and the different Rotoms.
These are great points, thanks for the in depth response. I have noticed a much wider variety in what has been getting thrown at me, and the Rotom's have been a pain in the ass as well.

It's definitely different than the Battle Maison, where I was just able to jam my favorites on a team and clear at least 50 or so every time. More thought seems to have to go into the Tree builds.
 
Yeah, I'll try that EV spread. Thanks. Because Marowak uses Protect on Turn 1 and almost always has the speed advantage afterward, I haven't had both leads be KOd, but it does have some risk. I'll probably breed a Hariyama and insert that as a lead instead of Mudsdale and see how that works.
I can promise you it'll work fantastically. 0 Speed Marowak at least speed ties with the base 30 pokes running negative natures, but Hariyama will always be outsped under TR; a bunch of them are major roadblocks for its sweep under those conditions, especially Amoonguss, so you'll miss that part of Marowak. Fortunately an opening Psychic from Oranguru will be enough to ensure kills against the fairies with unboosted Heavy Slam. Knock Off won't OHKO much unboosted, but with no stat drop Hariyama can tank a Psychic from the likes of Slowking.

Araquanid or Vikavolt might make a better partner than Wishiwashi for Hariyama, as they get the better of things that easily kill it (apart from Dragonite.)
 

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I've been in the middle of bouncing between Subway/Maison/Tree, going on "Porygon-Z Hunts" where I actively try to find and log battles with the Z-man and integrate Pory-Z facility sets into already-established teams to study the effects on the teams' chemistries, mainly as an excuse to BP farm in all three facilities. In the process, though I stumbled across a thing with some potential: using my Sylveon/Aegislash for my most recent Singles attempt, I tried my Colress pair for Multis, Porygon-Z3/Metagross4. The run produced my new Multis best of 34 wins, but more importantly, it showed me that this may be the best AI partner I have in my current collection.

More of a long-term thing than anything else (I got a few other things in the works), I was wondering if anyone has pointers for good 'mons to pair up with the Porygon-Z3/Metagross4 tandem, in case I ever give enough of a fuck to seriously go for my Multis stamp, or if the boss ever considers lowering the minimum for getting on the Multis leaderboard (as was done in the Maison thread).
 
These are great points, thanks for the in depth response. I have noticed a much wider variety in what has been getting thrown at me, and the Rotom's have been a pain in the ass as well.

It's definitely different than the Battle Maison, where I was just able to jam my favorites on a team and clear at least 50 or so every time. More thought seems to have to go into the Tree builds.
My general rule of thumb for Singles is that if the most likely outcome against an opposing lead would require you to sacrifice something and then go for a revenge kill without being able to set anything up, getting to 100-200 is going to require a lot of luck on your behalf. Odds are, for every lead that would put you in such a hole, there will be dozens more that can do the same with just a tiny bit of hax.

Here's a few new sets this applies to if you're leading with Greninja (or lots of other things) and some counters for them I could think of. As you'll see, there's enough diversity that the counter to one will often leave you doubly weak to another.

Mawile: Changing to a type neutral to Fairy is not going to save Greninja from a Play Rough OHKO. Don't know what else can switch in and set up on this besides Aegislash.

Charizard: Can't OHKO either of these. I can't think of any safe switch-ins for Charizard X, and nothing besides Chansey for Charizard Y.

Snorlax: Greninja does nothing to the Assault Vest set and is OHKOed by Snorlax-3's Double Edge. Without the Salamence/Aegislash combo AV Snorlax is almost impossible to set up against.

Beedrill: Outspeeds, KOs, and can U-Turn out of something trying to set up.

Lopunny: Outsped and KOed. Can't even switch to a Ghost for High Jump Kick.
 
Yeah, but Shedinja got power crept to hell a decade ago. Even with Swords Dance to mitigate that laughable base 90 attack (hey there Mimikyu) there are just too many opportunities for weather, for status, or any crummy STABless move to hit its typing for the needed damage. Not to mention Mold Breaker. I wouldn't bring up Sheddy even for semantics' sake :P
 

Smuckem

Resident Facility Bot Wannabe
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Oh, I know, just wanted to potentially plant the seed to try the thing into someone's brain. We seem to have our fair share of maniacs in here...

adman2, you've finally gotten over the hump. Even if you're not completely satisfied with how your current team works, I can tell you your overall comfort level is about to jump dramatically. Prepare to improve by leaps and bounds...and congrats.
 
Oh, I know, just wanted to potentially plant the seed to try the thing into someone's brain. We seem to have our fair share of maniacs in here...

adman2, you've finally gotten over the hump. Even if you're not completely satisfied with how your current team works, I can tell you your overall comfort level is about to jump dramatically. Prepare to improve by leaps and bounds...and congrats.

Thanks! The Super Doubles stamp was much harder. In Super Singles, I got away with a team of Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu, Ghostium Z Mimikyu, and I think Life Orb Tapu Fini. (They were the first competitively viable Pokemon that I had). Super Doubles requires a well-thought out team just to get to 50.

I'm considering switching out a move on Wishiwashi. Maybe slap Endeavor or Helping Hand on it instead of Scald? Helping Hand could be a backup plan if Oranguru falls and the opposing Pokemon resists Water/Ice.

If anyone can make Shedinja work in the Battle Tree, I'd love to see some videos.
 
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I talked about it some it earlier in the thread. If you maxed Speed and ran a support movepool like Protect/Spite/Struggle Bug/Sand Attack or Sunny Day it could be a decent crippler for the right set-up sweeper. Just didn't mention it there because Greninja wouldn't fit the bill and Lopunny may hit Shedinja with confusion on the switch. However, I'm sure if you were to lead with it you'd force Lopunny to switch out, just as something like Dugtrio-2 switches out of Salamence without trying to use Toxic.
 
Wally finally beat my Trick Room team in battle #60. Mega Gallade is the perfect lead to stop Hariyama in the Battle Tree. It can't be flinched with Fake Out, and Psycho Cut one shots you. So I had to Fake Out Garchomp instead. Magnezone-4's Assault Vest really doesn't help either. The final blow was Altaria putting my Oranguru to sleep with Sing.

Though part of it was a miscalculation on my part. Perhaps if I had Flamethrowered Magnezone earlier with Drampa, I could have advanced. . .

The loss video: V8NG-WWWW-WWW5-K36P

And one of the worst plays by an AI team I've ever seen: LL2W-WWWW-WWW5-K375. This isn't 4th gen Doubles. Stop using Explosion, especially when you don't Protect your teammates. :p

EDIT: As many reservations as I have about Drampa in the Battle Tree, it's much worse on Battle Spot because of all the Tapus milling about.
 
So here is the team I am working on:

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Jolly Nature
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Not sure on IVs
- Shadow Claw
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Rock Slide (should this be Earthquake?)

Hydreigon @ Dragonium Z
Timid Nature
252 SpA / 252 Speed / 4 SpD
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Flamethrower
- Substitute (should this be Dark Pulse?)

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
Defense and Stuff EV's
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Protect

So my thought process is that Lucario one shots most leads that aren't sashed or have Sturdy. If they lead with an EQ user that he can't one shot, or a Psychic type, I switch into Hydreigon and Sub up. Fini provides a pivot if I want Hydreigon to dodge status effects before she subs up. Fini also comes in against Fairy or fighting types and such.

This follows the solid core of Steel / Fairy / Dragon but a bit different than the Chomp / Scizor set up. I do think Lucario will get plenty of free sweeps, and I have good switch ins against most post - 50 leads. Hydreigon comes in against Thundurus/Zapdos and Dracos, Fini most likely comes in against Gyarados, I am pretty sure Lucario one shots most bulky leads.


Any thoughts on this? Feedback is welcome! I really want to build a team built around Lucario and this is what I have so far.
 
Wally finally beat my Trick Room team in battle #60. Mega Gallade is the perfect lead to stop Hariyama in the Battle Tree. It can't be flinched with Fake Out, and Psycho Cut one shots you. So I had to Fake Out Garchomp instead. Magnezone-4's Assault Vest really doesn't help either. The final blow was Altaria putting my Oranguru to sleep with Sing.

Though part of it was a miscalculation on my part. Perhaps if I had Flamethrowered Magnezone earlier with Drampa, I could have advanced. . .

The loss video: V8NG-WWWW-WWW5-K36P

And one of the worst plays by an AI team I've ever seen: LL2W-WWWW-WWW5-K375. This isn't 4th gen Doubles. Stop using Explosion, especially when you don't Protect your teammates. :p

EDIT: As many reservations as I have about Drampa in the Battle Tree, it's much worse on Battle Spot because of all the Tapus milling about.
My Hariyama was EV'd to survive exactly that without a crit. Gone are the days of just slapping down some 252s or an even split and calling it quits.

Even with the worst-case scenario of Garchomp having Rough Skin, the battle was not necessarily finished. Scald is a guaranteed 2HKO on Mega Gallade, and Scarfchomp would not be able to destroy Schooling mode before being Ice Beamed to death. Magnezone4 has a 25% chance to OHKO your Wishiwashi, but even univested Earthquake has a 50% chance to OHKO Magnezone, had you not gone with dual STAB. I firmly believe Wishiwashi should run mixed sets due to its limited movepool and coverage. Even with that AV, one Earthquake plus one Psychic or Foul Play (why? Psychic at least allows Oranguru to greatly soften Weezing and Toxapex) would have assuredly finished the job. Flamethrower from Drampa has 60% odds to 2HKO Magnezone4, but had Wishiwashi been able to KO Mega Gallade and Magnezone, there would have been no need to use it. Drampa easily would have slain the dragons and been safe to come in last, and that's if it was even necessary; had Garchomp spread an Outrage to both Oranguru and Wishiwashi, one Instructed Ice Beam would have done it. I have yet to see a single Chomp3 select Earthquake, but that would have condemned it further.

I should have spoken up about little details like that sooner, but you had gotten the stamp by then and I figured you wouldn't have been keen on changing much if anything given your statements and general demeanor. So, I decided to let things play out. Congrats on fulfilling the main part of your journey, of course.
 
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I wanted to see how far I could get with the team as it was.

Foul Play was on Oranguru mainly because nothing is immune to it. Foul Play is on one of the recommended Oranguru doubles sets here on Smogon, as seen in this link. Psychic sounds like it would be more useful in most cases, though. (And it's not like I'm going to be directly attacking Dark types with Oranguru anyway)

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oranguru-qc-1-2-written.3588639/

What would be good defensive EVs for Hariyama then? From your post, I guess that it should have more Defense than Special Defense EVs.

Would a mixed Wishiwashi be max HP, max Attack, 6 Special Attack with Waterfall/Ice Beam/Protect/Earthquake? Or are the attacking EVs split to hit some specific benchmark with Ice Beam?

How can you tell when the AI is going to switch? Sometimes it gains the advantage, like Wally did. Other times, an AI trainer will do something like set up a Substitute on Breloom, and then switch out for no apparent reason. Is it RNG for cases when it's not due to type immunities on your team?
 
My Hariyama spread is 28/108/116 respectively with 252 attack of course.

My physically-oriented Wishiwashi runs an odd spread I can't recall off the top of my head but it's extremely similar to the VGC 17 one. I have no EVs in SpA. I also run that 50% berry on it.

Because you usually can't predict the enemies in reserve, you can only guess that they may or may not have something in reserve which nullifies your last-used move. That is when they most often switch (I saw Fake Out recipients switched for a Ghost type multiple times.) They may also switch from a partner's Earthquake. There may be other spontaneous instances I'm not aware of.
 
My Hariyama spread is 28/108/116 respectively with 252 attack of course.

My physically-oriented Wishiwashi runs an odd spread I can't recall off the top of my head but it's extremely similar to the VGC 17 one. I have no EVs in SpA. I also run that 50% berry on it.

Because you usually can't predict the enemies in reserve, you can only guess that they may or may not have something in reserve which nullifies your last-used move. That is when they most often switch (I saw Fake Out recipients switched for a Ghost type multiple times.) They may also switch from a partner's Earthquake. There may be other spontaneous instances I'm not aware of.

Wishiwashi-School @ Figy Berry
EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 132 Def / 120 SpD
Brave Nature


I saw this EV set for Wishiwashi in the VGC "Homework Assignment" topic. Is this the "odd spread" you were referring to? I couldn't find a VGC or Doubles Battle Spot analysis on Wishiwashi.
 
So here is the team I am working on:

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Jolly Nature
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Not sure on IVs
- Shadow Claw
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Rock Slide (should this be Earthquake?)

Hydreigon @ Dragonium Z
Timid Nature
252 SpA / 252 Speed / 4 SpD
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Flamethrower
- Substitute (should this be Dark Pulse?)

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
Defense and Stuff EV's
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Protect

So my thought process is that Lucario one shots most leads that aren't sashed or have Sturdy. If they lead with an EQ user that he can't one shot, or a Psychic type, I switch into Hydreigon and Sub up. Fini provides a pivot if I want Hydreigon to dodge status effects before she subs up. Fini also comes in against Fairy or fighting types and such.

This follows the solid core of Steel / Fairy / Dragon but a bit different than the Chomp / Scizor set up. I do think Lucario will get plenty of free sweeps, and I have good switch ins against most post - 50 leads. Hydreigon comes in against Thundurus/Zapdos and Dracos, Fini most likely comes in against Gyarados, I am pretty sure Lucario one shots most bulky leads.


Any thoughts on this? Feedback is welcome! I really want to build a team built around Lucario and this is what I have so far.
Thoughts on IVs? - Should be all 31 - it's just going to help your odds every time. Especially since everything post-50 has perfect IVs. Of course SpA on a physical mon is irrelevant and you'll prefer 0 Atk on the specials mon to reduce confusion damage.

Lucario - I'd personally consider dropping Shadow Claw to play Rock Slide and EQ. Shadow Claw is there for Ghosts and Psychics. But you've got Hydreigon for Psychics and the only Ghost I see that outspeeds Mega Lucario is Mega Gengar which can now be hit with EQ. Maybe try Bulk Up? I'm by no means an expert on Lucario sets.

Hydreigon - I'd definitely drop Sub for Dark Pulse. It'll be great for flattening those Psychic mons you baited with Lucario. Plus you have Tapu Fini as your dedicated status preventer. Substitute on an offensive mon like a Salamence or Gyarados is to A) Dodge status and 2) Set up DDs. Hydreigon doesn't really set up and since you Misty Terrain (although it won't protect Hydreigon) it should be enough IMO

 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
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I would include Suicune in that group as well. These are all auxiliary Pokemon that were meant to come in on rare threats to a team's main set-up sweeper. The main reasons they can't do that as well anymore:

1. Power creep/new Megas. Mostly self-explanatory; something like Mega Metagross would need to be relatively unlucky (no Meteor Mash attack raise, no critical hits, no Zen Headbutt flinches) to not beat a Suicune that switches in on it.

2. Extreme predictability of past trainers. Almost all of them only used one set, so you could switch your passive defensive Pokemon in on something on turn 1 and be extremely confident the opponent wasn't going to boost in your face. Now pretty much everything has 8 or 16 possible moves for at least the first turn. In addition, pretty much every set was either 4 attacks (with a weak offensive item so it could easily be walled after the main STAB or super-effective option was stalled out), a stat booster with zero offensive EVs, or something that was extremely passive and set-up bait for almost anything with Sub/Rest and a boosting move. Now there are a few more threatening boosters as well as stuff that can hit decently hard off the bat while also packing a status move (Mega Aggron/Lopunny).

3. New STAB/coverage combos. For example, Electric type opponents have generally sucked outside of their ability to induce paralysis, and almost all of them could be dealt with by switching back and forth between a Water and a Ground type (or by manipulating Protean to take resisted hits in Greninja's case). That's not possible with Pokemon like Mega Ampharos and the different Rotoms.
These points sum things up very well, and definitely align with my experiences. The one thing I would also add is time. Since bank hasn't been out that long, people have had a little less time to work with transfer only Pokemon, so it's likely we'll start to see more of Suicune and Gliscor on top teams as time passes, even though I don't expect them to be as dominant as previously.
 
Thoughts on IVs? - Should be all 31 - it's just going to help your odds every time. Especially since everything post-50 has perfect IVs. Of course SpA on a physical mon is irrelevant and you'll prefer 0 Atk on the specials mon to reduce confusion damage.

Lucario - I'd personally consider dropping Shadow Claw to play Rock Slide and EQ. Shadow Claw is there for Ghosts and Psychics. But you've got Hydreigon for Psychics and the only Ghost I see that outspeeds Mega Lucario is Mega Gengar which can now be hit with EQ. Maybe try Bulk Up? I'm by no means an expert on Lucario sets.

Hydreigon - I'd definitely drop Sub for Dark Pulse. It'll be great for flattening those Psychic mons you baited with Lucario. Plus you have Tapu Fini as your dedicated status preventer. Substitute on an offensive mon like a Salamence or Gyarados is to A) Dodge status and 2) Set up DDs. Hydreigon doesn't really set up and since you Misty Terrain (although it won't protect Hydreigon) it should be enough IMO
Thanks! These are good points. I wasn't certain on Shadow Claw, so Hydreigon definitely makes that decision easier. Can't believe I forgot about Dark Pulse. Good call.

And does Misty Terrain not work on Mons that have Levitate?

EDIT: Just looked up Misty Terrain and Levitate. Huh. TIL.
 
I am just started to play with durant team and have a question.
What do you do against wishiwashi as a lead?
The sets 3 and 4 have the berries for grass and thunder attacks so i can not simply use one of this types.
At the moment i am using tsareena with acupressure play rough protect and sub and need +6 atk to onehit wishiwashi.
I play play rough over trop kick because of the 4x resistance of ferrothorn and scizor and sap zipper.
 
Wishiwashi-School @ Figy Berry
EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 132 Def / 120 SpD
Brave Nature


I saw this EV set for Wishiwashi in the VGC "Homework Assignment" topic. Is this the "odd spread" you were referring to? I couldn't find a VGC or Doubles Battle Spot analysis on Wishiwashi.
I used 236 HP/212 Atk/60 SpD but you can certainly give that one a try and see what kinds of things it tanks or doesn't. Your biggest concern is going to be STAB Electric moves. Wishiwashi is not difficult to OHKO in spite of its bulk but thankfully it packs enough raw power to easily OHKO or 2HKO via Instruct most of these types of threats. Note that minimum speed Oranguru speed ties with M-Ampharos4 and you aren't guaranteed to activate Instruct for that second Earthquake before Amphy murders it with Thunder.

There are still merits to running a special set, as Ice Beam will kill a lot more after or even without Instruct and dual uninvested Earthquakes will still be enough to KO a lot of these naturally frail Electrics. You won't need Instruct to OHKO something like Thundurus2 (the most dangerous one IMO) with Ice Beam. Scald is just as powerful as Waterfall; both are spammy moves with great side effects at a decent probability. And, as you've repeatedly brought up, Quiet WW is not bothered much by Intimidate. I plan to breed a second WW for this at some point. I gravitated toward physical Wishiwashi at first because its special movepool is more lacking than its physical; it would also allow me to try U-Turn on it, a move which scores a bunch of niche OHKOs to dumb shit like Mega Alakazam, and in a one on one via the Slowthings after a sloppy TR skirmish, Wishiwashi needs fewer turns to kill them than they would with Psychic. I particularly care about how my teams will fare against Slowbro/king because they're very bulky and often have a speed advantage against other slow pokes.
 

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