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Black and White Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by shrang, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    No it's not. The same reason why you use Draco Meteor on Scarf Dialga, Palkia, and I guess Reshiram (not like he has any real other options...) still applies here. It OHKOes Darkrai and takes down Mewtwo after SR damage, and is great for denting things because when you have that much special attack you don't need damage items to murder stuff.

    As a matter of fact, Dragon Pulse is rarely used because the combination of Draco Meteor and Ice Beam is often more than enough to suit Kyurem-W's needs.
  2. Exen

    Exen

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    I personally would still run Dragon Pulse on W-Kyurem anyway. True, you only use Draco Meteor and Ice Beam 80% of the time, and Fusion Flare for a bit as well (more if on a sun team), but Dragon Pulse is an option for cleaning up weakened teams and/or if you can't afford to swap out much because Stealth Rocks is up and your spinner is KO'd.
  3. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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    The only time I have actually used Dragon Pulse on White Kyurem is on a paralysis team, and it was on LO White Kyurem too. The main reason for this is because I was paralyzing annoying Palkia with Twave Kyogre, and then using Dragon Pulse so I dont have to waste a Draco Meteor when someone is trying to sacrafice it.

    That being said... its really only for paralyzed Palkia, paralyzed Kyurem, and Reshiram, because Ice Beam does more to the rest of the Dragons. This is still a pretty niche use too. I wouldn't bother with Dragon Pusle on the choice sets, Choiced White Kyurem switches out quite a bit anyways so Draco Meteor spam works out, PLUS White Kyurem has faaaar more important things to put in that last slot (Fusion Flare or Earth Power on Specs, and Stone Edge or Outrage on Scarf).
  4. hichez

    hichez

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    No Kyurem-W can't OHKO everything. Also you have to get the safe switch-in. I don't think there is an efficient defense set for Kyurem-W. Plus you always know 3 moves of most Kyurem-W sets. Draco meteor/inferior dragon move, ice beam, and fusion flare. Pokemon like blissey still tank this beast.
  5. Zentrius

    Zentrius

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    IIRC, Blissey takes 41~48% from a Specs Draco Meteor, so if Blissey comes in 3 layers of Spikes and Rocks on the field (which is pretty easy to set up in ubers), she could be KOed by the second Draco Meteor.
  6. hichez

    hichez

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    I realized that Blissey takes less than half from Draco meteor. In ubers everyone should have a spikes/ rocks plan. I don't know why this would work unless your opponent trapped you. In that case the game is essentially over.
  7. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Well actually, you dont need to use Draco Meteor.
    Kyurem-W can just use Focus Blast. It does 46.93% - 55.52% to Blissey which is a guaranteed 2hko with stealth rock and leftovers recovery.(if focus blast hits)
  8. mtr

    mtr

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    You need Focus Blast to his twice, which has a 49% chance of occurring.
  9. hichez

    hichez

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    I viewed the post as a garchomp post back in 4th gen OU. I have been battling with a banded Kyurem- B and I'm thinking about changing it to life orb. The fact that it doesn't have a physical Ice STAB move annoys the heck out of me. Any cool set ideas that utilizes a more defensive zekrom using roost or something?
  10. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    Are you talking about Zekrom or Kyurem-B?
  11. hichez

    hichez

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    Excuse me, I meant to type Kyurem-B.
  12. Zentrius

    Zentrius

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    Does it even get Hone Claws?

    I honestly won't run a Choice item with Kyurem-B, the lack of movepool just isn't worth it, unless you want to run Ice Beam on your Choice Band set lolll.
  13. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    Kyurem-B gets Hone Claws, and I've even seen someone using that set for it. I don't really like it much though, as aside from the ability to get past Groudon, it is generally worse than Zekrom, and it is also stopped rather easily as it only has Outrage as a physical Same Type Attack Bonus move.
  14. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Kyurem-B is not a "worse Zekrom".
    Ice STAB aside, outspeeding all the base 90's is a huge advantage over Zekrom and so having a stronger Outrage which allows Kyurem-B to 2HKO things that Zekrom cannot (notably Ferrothorn).

    Being hard-countered by Arceus-Steel (which isn't even that common) is nowhere near as bad as losing on a regular basis against Groudon (which is extremely common).
  15. Blim

    Blim
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    I could be wrong, but I think Pokémon Trainer R only said that hone claws kyurem-b is inferior to hone claws zekrom, so I think he was comparing the sets against each other, not the pokemon overall.

    Also am very confused at your paragraph, because everything you just posted is false....cb kyurem-B is rarely going to 2hoko ferrothron with outrage, while cb / mixed zekrom can get past groudon. arceus steel doesn't hard counter them either.
  16. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    Indeed, I was comparing Hone Claws Kyurem-B to Hone Claws Zekrom, not the overall Pokémon, and I also just meant that Hone Claws Kyurem-B is generally worse than Hone Claws Zekrom, not that the former is completely outclassed by the latter or anything like that, since Home Claws Kyurem-B does have certain niches over Hone Claws Zekrom, like the higher base Speed and the ability to beat Groudon, as Rayquaza_ mentioned.

    The two main reasons why I think Hone Claws Zekrom is generally far superior to Hone Claws Kyurem-B are:

    1. Kyurem-B's only notable physical attacks are its Dragon-type physical moves, and Fusion Bolt. By using Dragon Claw/Outrage and Fusion Bolt as its physical attacks, its general inferiority to Zekrom is already apparent, since Zekrom's Hone Claws set has access to a physical Electric-type move that is almost twice as strong as Kyurem-B's, while Zekrom's Dragon-type moves are almost as powerful as Kyurem-B's anyway. So this means that Hone Claws Kyurem-B's best way to differentiate itself from Hone Claws Zekrom would be to use Blizzard (which is viable over Ice Beam due to Hone Claws's accuracy boost. Credits to puregenius for the Blizzard/Hone Claws/Outrage/Substitute set, by the way) or Ice Beam over Fusion Bolt, in which case it would need to use either Dragon Claw or Outrage against the vast majority of its targets in order to sweep, with the former being nowhere near as powerful as Zekrom's Bolt Strike or either of the two Pokémon's Outrage, and the latter locking its user into one attack. This is in stark contrast with Zekrom, whose main sweeping attack is almost as strong as Kyurem-B's Outrage but doesn't lock the user in for 2-3 turns. See the difference? Hone Claws Zekrom uses a powerful Bolt Strike as its main sweeping attack, and only has to resort to locking itself into Outrage if it absolutely needs to, while Outrage is Hone Claws Kyurem-B's primary sweeping move unless it opts for the much weaker Dragon Claw (granted, most of the time Zekrom will have to use Outrage eventually, but at least it isn't anywhere near as forced to use it as Kyurem-B). And from my experience, being locked into Outrage is a massive liability in Generation V Übers due to the prevalence of Pokémon like Ferrothorn and Forretress, and it is even worse on a Pokémon that isn't holding a Choice Scarf or utilizing Dragon Dance, due to the ease with which such an Outrage user can be revenge-killed by Palkia or Choice Scarf-holding dragons while being locked into the move. You could sum up what I just said like this: Zekrom has both the excellent Bolt Strike and the risky move Outrage as powerful attacks to sweep with after raising its Attack with Hone Claws. Hone Claws. Kyurem-B only has the risky move Outrage.

    2. The greatest selling point of Hone Claws Zekrom is the ability to set up on any Ferrothorn. But Kyurem-B loses the ability to fulfil this very important role if Ferrothorn utilizes the extremely common Gyro Ball.
  17. Rayquaza_

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    I'm not sure you realize that Kyurem-B can setup on Ferrothorn as well.
    Kyurem-B could just run Sub/Roost/Hone Claws/Outrage, use Ferrothorn as setup bait while wasting its Gyro Ball PP and lay waste on the rest of the opponent's team thanks to its higher speed and attack compared to Zekrom.
    The only loss here is STAB Bolt Strike, but does it really matter when you have STAB Outrage coming form 170 attack and you outspeed all the base 90's?
    So stop assuming that Ferrothorn is a 100% counter to Kyurem-B or that Kyurem-B can't effectively run a SubClaws set because it's not the case.

    Or you could just run a simple CB set and 1HKO/2HKO everything or a mixed set to crush pretty much every wall in the tier, including Chansey and Blissey (which Kyurem-W has trouble against).

    And SubClaws Zekrom is still not getting past Groudon period, unless the Groudon user is stupid enough to let it Sub first. Groudon, the third most common pokemon in ubers. I'm not sure you realize how bad this is.
    Zekrom has its advantages over Kyurem-Bm but to say it outclasses it is plain asinine.
  18. Bossness

    Bossness

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    This made me lol so hard. How can you stall Gyro ball when you can only make 5 subs?
    48Atk Ferrothorn (Neutral) Gyro Ball vs 4HP/0Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 82% - 97% (324 - 384 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Good luck. This gets even worse after stealth rock damage as then you will only make 3 substitutes and die to Gyro Ball even if you roost.

    You realize that as you are magically stalling Gyro Ball, you will only set up after Ferrothorn switches out? OKaaay, so it switched out to Palkia as you set up one hone claws. You click Outrage and......Ferrothorn is back in to cause some iron barb damge. That set can easily be phazed out by Skarmory. BTW, did you know that Zekrom can run Dragon Claw instead because it already has another STAB?
    SubClaws Zekrom cant get past Groudon? Set up hone Claws on the switch as Groudon comes in, Outrage for the 2HKO on Support Groudon - Groudon cant OHKO back.
    252Atk +1 Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Groudon (+Def): 50% - 59% (204 - 241 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb +1 Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Outrage vs 112HP/0Def Groudon (Neutral): 94% - 111% (348 - 411 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO. OHKO after stealth rock.

    I dont even see why Zekrom couldnt do the same with your Kyurem-B set. In practice, Zekrom kills one opposing Dragon before being forced out - how is Kyurem-B supposed to do better than that with just outrage? Zekrom can easily get past Skarmory and Lugia.
    48Atk Ferrothorn (Neutral) Power Whip vs 4HP/0Def Kyurem Black (Neutral): 16% - 19% (64 - 76 HP). Guaranteed 7HKO.
    48Atk Ferrothorn (Neutral) Power Whip vs 4HP/0Def Zekrom (Neutral): 16% - 19% (55 - 66 HP). Guaranteed 7HKO.
    Earlier in this thread, you said Kyurem-B is bulkier which isnt true when you factor in Stealth Rock damage.

    Groudon doesnt counter Zekrom as hard as you think it does. It can only take on the choice scarf set. The other set(Choice Band, Mixed, Hone Claws) can beat Groudon. Zekrom's only real counter is Ground Arceus. Did I forget to mention that Kyurem-B is beaten by Jirachi?
  19. Umbrask

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    I think even with all it flaws kyurem-b should not drop to OU, it is bulky enough to survive a non super efective move and then spawm freeze shock (125 hp/100 def 90 spdef are great). Yes, scizor and ferrothorn can annoy it a lot, but both can be OHKO by reshiram or even heatran! With the right support, kyurem-b(adass) can be very dangerous. Just remove the steel types of your oponent and watch the black boundary pokemon crush everything it see!
    (sry for the bad grammar --')
  20. jrp

    jrp wanker of the highest order

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    ...freeze shock is a terrible move that cannot even be spammed. Also, performance in ubers has nothing to do with tiering in OU.
  21. superstar

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    Yup, it wins once all the steel-types are gone. #Truth. Ban ALL the the dragons.

    But actually, I think it might be a good idea to have a bit more discussion in this thread about WK and BK, now that we've actually played with them for a while. I've been having a lot of trouble finding a way to check Kyurem-W because it can 2HKO my entire team with Draco Meteor. Latias and Genesect with Iron Head seem to be good ways to check it so far, and it really makes it vital to keep SR up. However, a supporting Ghostceus/Ferrothorn or Chansey/Tina core walls most of its checks (Palkia, Genesect, Latias). It's also very effective at weakening Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Genesect, and Ferrothorn to the point where Mewtwo can easily sweep. Thoughts?
  22. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    This thread is only for the discussion of the Kyurem formes in Ubers; Kyurem-B's OU placement is irrelevant.
  23. trickroom

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    Kyurem-B is still pretty shit compared to Zekrom generally. Kyurem-B has a horrible weakness to EVERY hazards, isn't fast ( would be great if Speed and HP swap stats ), and you do not have any powerful physical STAB outside of Outrage. Freeze Shock does not count because it is too situational. More importantly, Kyurem-B lacks a good boosting move like Rayquaza or Groudon. If it got Dragon Dance, things will be different.

    Lugia checks Kyurem-B, not the other way round. As long as Lugia has Reflect ( and is faster obviously ), it can come in on anything even Hone Claws, put up the Reflect and stall you out or Whirlwind. In Zekrom's case, Bolt Strike OHKOes Lugia immediately regardless of Stealth Rock because Multiscale is nullified.

    The reason to use Choice Scarf Kyurem-B is pretty small. The hazards weak was bad enough but it has to get locked into Outrage to really kill anything decently bulky such as Offensive Arceus or Chansey. Kyurem-B's Fusion Bolt does laughable damage compared to Zekrom's Bolt Strike.

    Some of Kyurem-B's real niches I found are:
    1) It beats Groudon one-on-one, generally scares it out as long as you have Blizzard / Ice Beam LOL, otherwise it will just Dragon Tail you out. Zekrom is not countered by Groudon but you will usually lose to it (one-on-one) and its better for Zekrom to switch out from Groudon unless you are Mixed Zekrom. Kyurem-B can beat Ground/Grass Arceus with CB Outrage or Ice Beam, Zekrom loses to both.
    2) Kyurem-B happens to check Kyogre better than Zekrom can, due to no Ice Beam weak. I like to invest more into Kyurem-B's bulk because max Speed is not necessary. Kyurem-B can easily survive things such as Offensive Latias's Dragon Pulse with investment but Stealth Rock will screw you up so that isn't reliable.
    3) It outspeeds all base 90s compared to a Speed tie.

    Not saying Kyurem-B's is useless but it is usually not the best pokemon that can fit into any team. In fact most teams have trouble fitting in Kyurem-B.

    Kyurem-W is generally a better pokemon to use otherwise, it can simply spam Draco Meteor and Ice Beam to deal massive damage from turn 1. Fusion Flare destroys Steels which is something Kyurem-B lacks. I do think it is overrated however.
  24. Porii Sames

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    Kyu-B's Niches in my opinion put it over the edge and make it a very viable Scarf user.
  25. Rayquaza_

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    Kyurem-B's only true flaw is that you can't use Kyurem-W, arguably the easiest uber to use, in the same team.
    Kyurem-W's combination of overwhelming special attack, above average bulk, useful resistances on the special side, convenient speed tier and absolutely flawless special movepool make it by far the lowest risk-highest reward wallbreaker in the game. It can safely come in against any of the 90 base speed ubers after they kill something (or switch against predicted non-SE special attacks) and OHKO something with the appropriate move.

    Kyurem-B is significantly harder to use and plays in an entirely different way than Kyu-W, but it is just as good.
    For starters I find it to be far better than Zekrom. Unlike the electric dragon, Kyu-B easily beats Kyogre, the king of ubers, one on one, since it outspeeds it and is not weak to ice beam, while Zekrom is never safe against Kyogre and can't directly switch on it.
    Not only that, but Kyogre is the perfect setup bait for arguably the best Kyu-B set: SubHone Claws.

    This set is scary in OU where everything outspeeds Kyu-B, but in ubers, where it's Kyu-B to have the speed advantage most of the time, it's downright devastating.
    Using Roost is not necessary - using two attacking moves (either Fusion Bolt+Blizzard or Dragon Tail/Claw+Focus Blast) will give you the edge against most opponents.
    This set always defeats non-specially defensive Groudon (something that Zekrom can only dream of) and Lugia (unless it has Whirlwind instead of Dragon Tail).
    Speaking of Lugia, LOL at even remotely suggesting that it can check Kyurem-B. With what? Non-STAB Ice Beam coming from 90 base sp.atk? A pitifully weak Dragon Tail that can't even break its Sub? If it has Whirlwind Lugia can phaze Kyurem-B out... assuming it survives a Teravolt'd boosted Fusion Bolt first, that is. Good luck with that.
    Ferrothorn may try to Gyro Ball your sub, if it feels like eating a STAB Blizzard or Focus Blast coming off 120 Sp.Atk that is.

    I always scream in joy when I see Chansey or Blissey in the opposing team, for they're absolutely perfect setup baits for this set.
    If you see them in team preview, you're guaranteed to take at least 2 pokemon out with SubClaws Kyu-B.

    Honestly, there is no reason to use Zekrom over Kyurem-B unless you really, really need that STAB Bolt Strike - Kyu-B is just more versatile and effective overall.

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