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Black and White Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by shrang, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Varfor

    Varfor

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    I know perfectly well how MixKrom, mixed attackers and the Uber metagame works, however MixKrom will completely fail to deal with Groudon if you mispredict and many opponents will outpredict you.
    I am not saying that MixKrom isn't suited for luring Groudon because he can't OHKO him, I am saying that because MixKrom cannot OHKO Groudon, Groudon is still a threat for MixKrom as it can OHKO back. And you say that you are trying to help me? All that you seem to have been doing is insulting me.
    I agree that many people will send Groudon in to deal with Zekrom, however it is those who do not who may give you problems.
    Actually, you are talking quite a lot about Groudon.
    Though Zekrom deals with the same pokemon that Kyurem-B does, the same is true in reverse. Kyurem-B can deal with everything that Zekrom can, but can do more damage in the process. From what I can see, the only advantage Zekrom has over Kyurem-B is its neutrality to Stealth Rock and a slightly better defensive type, while Kyurem-B hits harder, is faster and is bulkier.
  2. Bossness

    Bossness

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    P.S I cant tell you how annoying some people can be. I had an argument similar to this in the Uber CCAT 2.
  3. Varfor

    Varfor

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    However beating Groudon also requires that Groudon switches in on a Draco-Meteor. If Groudon instead switches in on Bolt-Strike, Groudon can survive a Draco Meteor and KO.
    0 Attack neutral nature Groudon does 80.1 - 94.82% with to 104HP / 0 Def Lonely (the standard nature on MixKrom) Zekrom. This is a guaranteed OHKO including 12% Stealth Rock damage and 10% Life Orb recoil.

    Zekrom's Draco-Meteor can be easily sponged by all of the Steel type Pokemon in the tier, considering that most teams use one of these, switching it in before sending in Groudon would make Zekrom unable to take down Groudon with Draco-Meteor. Also, I have used Arceus-Ground and Ferrothorn together very successfully on a rain stall team, so I would not say that they are never used together.
    Which of my arguments would you consider a pointless argument that cannot be backed up?

    We were talking about Mixed Zekrom and Mixed Kyurem-B, so substitue+hone claws is irrelevant. Although Kyurem-B lacks a secondary physical STAB, Jirachi is the only pokemon that troubles mixed Kyurem-B because of it; if you have trouble with Jirachi then sure, use Zekrom instead, but otherwise mixed Kyurem-B does better than mixed Zekrom (due to its better attack, defenses and speed as mentioned in my previous post).
  4. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    I disagree with Mixed Kyurem-B doing better overall than Zekrom for a number of reasons.

    1) Zekrom can actually open a slot for a recovery move (Bolt Strike/DM/Focus Blast/Roost), while Kyurem-B has to sacrifice coverage for it (specifically, the ability to hit Steel Arceus/Ferrothorn/Forretress). The access to a recovery move is pretty significant, as it allows Zekrom to counteract plays against its Draco Meteor and stay alive long enough to see walls thoroughly broken.

    2) In addition to point 1, Kyurem-B is Stealth Rock weak and Zekrom isn't. This means that Kyurem-B will have more issues staying alive, which would favor Roost, which it may not be able to find the moveslot for. Kyurem-B also possesses less resistances to switch in on.

    3) Kyurem-B is forced to Outrage lock itself to actually damage Chansey or any Arceus formes that isn't weak to its attacks, which can be risky (Chansey particularly as it is slower, can survive a hit, Softboiled, and switch to Ferrothorn/Forretress and potentially destroy you). This means that Kyurem-B cant significantly dent these Arceus on switch in without retaliation. Zekrom does not suffer from this issue due to Bolt Strike. Kyurem-B can use Dragon Claw to 2HKO Chansey, but in that case it loses its power advantage over Zek. Not to mention you still need a ton of investment and it's not even guaranteed to 2HKO at max EVs.

    Re: Groudon vs Mix Zekrom: Due to how much Draco Meteor does to Groudon and Zekrom's likelyhood to outrun it it doesnt take a lot of previous damage for Zekrom to blast through Groudon one on one.

    Notable counters to Mix Zekrom: Ground Arceus, Grass Arceus, the rare Electric Arceus
    Notable counters to Mix Kyurem-B: Steel Arceus, Fighting Arceus, Jirachi. Don't forget point #3.

    Of course, that's not to say that Kyurem-B doesnt have its advantages, but it does have a number of disadvantages that make it not so appealing.
  5. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Jibaku is a Zekrom fan :(

    I like to say the Ice-STAB for Kyurem-B isn't all that amazing because it has no physical STAB Ice move to use. Zekrom's Bolt Strike is about as strong as Kyurem-B's Outrage anyway. Kyurem-B is better off using Mixed sets with Ice Beam to OHKO Groudon and 2HKO Grass Arceus easily. The lack of powerful physical moves outside of Outrage really hurt Kyurem-B.

    Kyurem-B also has a hard time hurting Forretress and Ferrothorn. Most Ferrothorn tend to carry Protect anyway and Gyro Ball will hurt Kyurem-B.

    Of course, that's not to say that Kyurem-B doesnt have its advantages
    -Jibaku forgotten Kyurem-B is actually bulkier than Zekrom. The Stealth Rock weakness sucks though. Kyurem-B can OHKO Kyogre with CB Outrage while not getting smashed by Ice Beam like Zekrom.

    -Zekrom is checked by Ground and Grass Arceus while Kyurem-B has less problem with those thanks to Ice Beam.

    -Kyurem-B is slightly faster than Zekrom :) If the two meet each other, Kyurem-B wins.

    Kyurem-B can try (Outrage/Ice Beam/Fusion Bolt/Roost) Not sure if Earth Power is strong enough to 2HKO Specially Defensive Jirachi so Fusion Bolt fits better. It has base 170 Attack and no good STABs to use outside of Outrage, even Rampardos gets Head Smash :(

    Outrage is the only powerful physical STAB move Kyurem-B has. Fusion Bolt OHKOes Ho-Oh and deals some damage to Lugia. ( Lugia still beats you btw, it is faster, and can just Reflect + Roost on Ice Beam or Fusion Bolt )
  6. ZetoTarken

    ZetoTarken

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    Well, Zekrom has more Special Defense while having the same Defense and because Zekrom can invest more heavily in HP, it generally has similar HP to Kyurem-B.
  7. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Lets not forget that Kyurem-b is Stealth Rock weak so whoever says that it is bulkier than Zekrom must account for Stealth Rock Damage on both pokemon. BTW Zekrom is physically bulkier than Kyurem-B. Varfor mentioned: Kyurem-B is Bulkier+Stronger+Faster than Zekrom.....let us analyse this. First let us consider the ev spread: Minimum Speed should be 216 jolly since it is faster, right? Attack or Special Attack is maximized and the rest is thrown into the other attack stat. Okay Kyurem is faster - I will give you that. Now with the jolly nature the maximum attack it can reach is 439 which is only one point higher than Zekrom's considering that Zekrom preferred nature is Adamant/Lonely/Naughy. This means that both of their outrage is as strong as the other's with Kyurem-B's being just marginally higher. Now dont go saying that Kyurem-B is stronger because it cannot be fast and strong at the same time. Zekrom has the option to use leftovers if it is using the hone claws set which is the most popular one at the moment(PO server's Statistics). Kyurem-B cannot use a viable substitute set. BTW Bolt Strike is always better than Fusion Bolt. It seems now that the only advantage Kyurem-B has over Zekrom is its Ice STAB which comes off its lower special attack. When you look at it like that, the question is: why not just use Kyurem-W? Zekrom is overall better than the other 5th gen Uber Dragons and that is why it is used a lot more.
    P.S Use the PO server statistics. The smogon uber ladder sucks as so many have said and it is very inconsistent.

    @Varfor Which team uses both Groudon AND Ferrothorn? You dont even understand how a lure works. Zekrom vs Sun team: Force out Ho-Oh/ Lugia/Forretress etc. They switch out because they dont want to take a bolt strike. Groudon switches in and takes a Draco Meteor. This is how it works - now dont say steel type is going to switch in. Which steel type? Best thing in that situation is to send in Groudon. BTW dont metion arceus formes. You only get one per team and the most common one is Normal Arceus with Ghost Arceus being second. You talk as if the team Zekrom is facing will be loaded with its counters - this is rare in a real match. BTW the first time Zekrom comes in you cant even tell what set it is using. Ferrothorn switches in? Zekrom uses substitute and sets up and therby basically guarantees it kills something on the opposing team before it is forced out.

    EDIT: @Rayquaza_ below: I am done arguing. Some people just dont listen. Kyurem-B cannot switch into Kyogre. Its funny how people bring up obscure mons and moves that can check Zekrom to prove Kyurem-B is better. ICE WEAK GROUND WEAK (Groudon, Heatran, Lugia, even freaking Cresselia) LOL <--- they get hit by Zekrom hard. So you are saying that Lugia is going to come in on Zekrom to damage it with weak Ice Beam and get killed with bolt strike? Groudon is 2hkoed 81.66% of the time with CB Outrage and it is guaranteed with Stealth rock. Heatan <---- Fried after Bolt Strike (Btw which uber pokemon actually runs earth power?) The common non-stabed Ice Beams are from Mewtwo, Kyogre and some support Arceus. CB Ferrothorn is obscure. Choice Ground attack on ferrothorn? U MAD BRO? I am not sure if you have enough experience in the uber metagame. It seems to me your experience comes from OU. 125/100 means little when Kyurem is weak to Stealth Rock. BTW Reshiram and Zekrom dont even need Ground attacks(they have earth power). Quote:"which is especially true now with bulky Excadrill, Thundurus-T, Landorus-T, Lati@s and Groudon running rampant" What? Lati@s wont risk switching in and takes alot from Bolt Strike. Lets take 4th gen's Latias for example:
    252Atk Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Bolt Strike vs 112HP/0Def Latias (Neutral): 42% - 50% (141 - 167 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO. No lefties and Stealth Rock means that its prone to being 2hkoed.
    252Atk Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Bolt Strike vs 4HP/0Def Latios (Neutral): 51% - 60% (156 - 184 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. LOL
    BTW this is choice scarf Zekrom which is the weakest variant
    Landorus-T? Okay. Just Watch out for Draco Meteor:
    252SpAtk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef Landorus Therian (Neutral): 105% - 124% (339 - 399 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. LOL
    252SpAtk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom (Neutral) Dragon Pulse vs 4HP/0SpDef Landorus Therian (Neutral): 67% - 80% (217 - 256 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Zekrom's new tutor move!
    On that note, lets see how it does against Groudon:
    252SpAtk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom (Neutral) Dragon Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Groudon (Neutral): 49% - 57% (198 - 234 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 15% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers. Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock.
    Now Thundurus-T:
    252Atk Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Bolt Strike vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 116% - 136% (348 - 409 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. Teravolt negates volt absorb, so there.

    So next time you say something please back it up.

    There are others who have said that Kyurem-B is just bad. It trying to compete with Zekrom or Kyurem-W for a team slot. Even with 170 Attack its only physical STAB is Outrage and the weak Dragon Claw.
  8. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Zekrom is weak to both Ice and Ground, quite possibly the worst weaknesses you can have in ubers since pretty much every single wall (Groudon, Heatran, Lugia, even freaking Cresselia) runs Ice Beam/Earth Power/EQ. Actually, who doesn't run Ice and/or Ground moves in ubers other than Reshiram and Zekrom (and that's because of their pathetic movepools) and Lati@s (who have STAB Dragon, which Zekrom is weak to anyways)? Even Ferrothorn occasionally runs Bulldoze with a CB set.
    Zekrom has just about no safe switch-ins. Kyurem-B, on the other hand, can switch on the most common pokemon in the metagame (Kyogre), which is huge.
    And 125/100 is numerically bulkier than 100/120.

    Let's not forget that Bolt Strike has shaky accuracy and Electric is a meh attacking type in ubers (which is especially true now with bulky Excadrill, Thundurus-T, Landorus-T, Lati@s and Groudon running rampant) so most of the time using Outrage is safer. So you might as well use Kyurem-B, which completely outclasses Zekrom in that regard.

    I still fail to see how Zekrom is anywhere near Kyurem-B's level as a mixed attacker.
  9. zabaquer

    zabaquer

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    substitute?

    really substitute yeah it is really helpful but if only u could teach it baton pass too.
  10. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    You're telling me that a one-trick Outrage pony is superior to something that has an alternative STAB option AND can open up room for a safer and still powerful Dragon move. Oh and it can also still use Outrage too. It seems to me that you are tunneling the strength of a mixed attacker into a move that defeats the point of one. I'm sure you are aware that one of the main qualities of a mixed attacker is the combination of its strength, flexibility, and coverage. I'm not saying that Outrage is bad on a mixed attacker, but you're making it seem like that's what it's going to be throwing out most (since clearly, Outrage alone is superior to Bolt Strike + Draco Meteor??). So, if that's the case, why not just use Choice Band and blast things away with Outrage and not worry since "it's so safe"??

    I will agree with you that Electric is somewhat a meh attacking type. What you seem to be missing here is the raw power of Bolt Strike (this is why Volt Switch sucks on Mixed Zekrom). Lati@s all take a solid 2HKO to the face from Life Orbed Bolt Strike, for instance (even a min atk LO Zek Bolt guarantees >50% damage on Latios). A typical Thundurus-T is not going to live against a Zekrom LO Bolt Strike ever, taking 138% damage minimum from 400 atk Zek (ironically, Thundurus's species is Bolt Strike xD), and everything else besides the aforementioned Groundceus/Grassceus/Electriceus takes a devastating blow from Zekrom's other moves. In fact, the threat of Bolt Strike is what's letting Zekrom lure these other Pokemon and kill them, and this is something that Kyurem-B lacks - a powerful, nonlocking move that forces the absolute safest switch into it.

    Of course, there is that accuracy issue, but then again, it also comes with a decent 20% paralysis chance and it doesn't lock.

    Zekrom's weaknesses are admittedly annoying since Ground/Dragon and Ground/Ice are strong attacking combinations so it is difficult to handle that if something with both of those types come in. However, to be honest, there is no worse weakness than to Rock in Ubers. In a metagame where entry hazards are easy to set up and hard to Spin, Kyurem-B suffers really badly from residual damage. Mixed Zekrom itself struggled against residual damage when I used it (though it was able to deal a good amount of damage, thankfully), but Kyurem-B will just get crushed flat. Doesn't quite help that outside of Outrage, Kyurem-B's raw power isn't that great and can't dent things on a misprediction. Then there's also the Steel and Fighting weaknesses. Steel isn't a huge concern but Ferrothorn is pretty common and can already cause several issues to Kyurem-B already. Then there's Forretress, Steel Arceus, and Jirachi. As far as Rock type attacks, you will see it on Groudon, Landorus, Landorus-T, Ground Arceus, Rock Arceus, Terrakion, and Tyranitar. Kyurem can beat the first 4 one on one, but it still limits his ability to switch in still. Fighting type moves are seen on Mewtwo, Fighting Arceus, Darkrai, Blaziken, Terrakion, Ghost Arceus, Normal Arceus, Electric Arceus, Ice Arceus, Tyranitar, and I guess if you count them, some stray Aura Spheres/Focus Blasts from Dialga/Kyurem-B/etc.

    Also lugia's Ice Beam doesn't even break 50% on Zekrom

    Ghost Arceus, Steel Arceus, Heatran, Forretress, Ferrothorn (CB Bulldoze is a joke), Skarmory, Blissey, Chansey, Tentacruel (well it can use Ice Beam but it's kinda weak and loses Protect), Kabutops, Tyranitar (generally - I havent seen an Ice Beam one in ages), Tornadus-T.
    I have noted that this is Kyurem-B's defensive highlight and it's pretty cool. But it's still incredibly shaky, as Choice Scarf Kyogre will 2HKO with Surf after SR damage. Still, remember that Zekrom has more resistances than Kyurem-B (and isn't sr weak...), so even if it can't safely switch in to most Pokemon, it has more switch in opportunities (hello there, Ho-Oh Brave Bird).

    Maybe you can give this a second thought. Admittedly, Mixed Kyurem-B's 4-attack coverage is superior to Zekrom's, but regardless, it lacks that kind of power that dents Pokemon resisting its moves, outside of one move that locks it in and kind of goes against the point of his coverage. And like Zekrom, Kyurem-B still has some hard counters regardless of what it runs.
  11. CottonPuff

    CottonPuff

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    Really? Your still talking about that? I apologized for arguing, how about you?

    No. Substitute is an amazingly helpful and powerful move, and should be revered to as such.
  12. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Man sorry. I just sort of wanted to refer to it....not to offend you. BTW Rayquaza_ i replied to your post in my last post - Pretty much what Jibaku said with some added information and calculations.
  13. Varfor

    Varfor

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    If you are comparing the two, you really should compare them with the same nature. If both of them have the same nature and EV spread, Kyurem-B has both higher attack and higher speed.

    We were discussing the mixed sets, so I don't see how this is relevant.

    Considering that Ferrothorn checks most Kyogre variants, I would consider it quite viable for a Sun team as Kyogre troubles Sun teams in general. While Arceus-Ground is not present on most teams, it is one of the more common formes of Arceus and there is little that Zekrom can do against it other than switch out or lock itself into Outrage and risk being crippled by Will-o-Wisp. While a team with more than one of Zekrom's counters is rare, it is a possibility and therefore must be considered.
    While you cannot know for sure what set Zekrom is using the first time it comes in during a match, you can guess based upon what Pokemon they send it in against and you can at least guess the move they will use. Also, considering that if you have a Zekrom counter, it is likely that they will expect you to switch to it and thus you can instead absorb the move that they think will cripple your counter.
  14. ZetoTarken

    ZetoTarken

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    But they aren't going to use the same nature/EV spread. Zekrom is going to run next to no speed while Kyurem HAS TO run speed and can't always run an attack boosting nature. Kyurem's EV spread will look more like a Rayquaza's than a Zekrom's. Part of why Zekrom is generally a better mixed attacker is it can run a more powerful/bulky EV spread than Kyurem who has to invest in speed.
  15. Bossness

    Bossness

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    I was just about to say this. Varfor keeps saying that the opponent will always predict perfectly against Zekrom. If we could predict perfectly, Mewtwo would not be used so much and we would not be able to hit Palkia with thunder when using Kyogre etc. The prediction argument works both ways. We are discussing the mixed attacker sets? Okay, Zekrom only needs Dragon Claw as a physical dragon STAB as Bolt Strike does 73%+ to chansey whereas Kyurem-B needs to use outrage to deal the same amount of damage which chansey can easily heal off and then switch to ferrothorn.
  16. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Or you could just use Dragon Claw instead, which is still going to 2HKO Chansey.
  17. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    Having an Ice STAB is great. Half of the tier is weak to it, even more than stuff that is weak to dragon. I've found Kyurem-W to be better than I expected
  18. SharKing

    SharKing

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    Of course White Kyurem would be awesome. Base 170 Sp. Attack, powerful Ice and Dragon STABs, and a Fire move that Heatran can't absorb (thank you, Turboblaze). That thing's a monster any way you look at it.

    Black Kyurem, though, I feel got really shafted. It has the game's strongest Outrage, but pretty much nothing else that Zekrom doesn't already have. It doesn't even get a decent physical Ice STAB (no, Freeze Shock isn't decent). Makes me sad.
  19. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Freeze Shock is only a little weaker than 2 Ice Punches, the most reliable physical ice move. Therefore it's firmly in "decent" territory. Not great, but not terrible either.
  20. AGL

    AGL

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    I agree with Jibaku

    Although Kyurem-B is much more powerful with it's movepool for a mixed set, Zekrom is always preferable, in most team of course.

    Kyurem-B cannot switch in to Kyogre, when Zekrom is meant to switch in to a Kyogre
    i mean most of the time, Zekrom is really useful for me for OHKOing even the most bulky Kyogre, but Kyurem-B just can't

    for the Groudon thingy, i believe i will stick on to Zekrom still for this case.
    Even i don't want to switch Kyurem-B in on a Groudon. It just hurts too much. Also, since we know what our enemies are packing in their team in Gen V, we could always anticipate a Groudon Switch when we are using a Zekrom, so it should be not a problem (at least for me)

    Kyurem-B is indeed powerful. I believe it should work well together with Zekrom, but i mean it is not meant to replace a Zekrom. Zekrom cannot be replaced in our current uber game, as none can acomplishes it's job better. The only pokemon i found to replace a Zekrom is an Arceus, but still it lacks firepower.

    If by any means a Kyurem-B can replace a Zekrom's place, then let me know. I would love to hear more of these Kyurem's capability in the game.
  21. gookie

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    that's a flawed premise rayquaza_, you can't just compare base powers, you have to take into consideration the charge up turn and its vulnerabilities, this is why freeze shock isn't a great move.

    its base power being equivalent to two ice punches doesn't doesn't make it an equivalent in terms of utility at all; no comparison should be drawn
  22. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    I'm not saying that Freeze Shock is the most spammable move ever, but it certainly has its uses. We can all agree that absolutely nothing likes to switch on it after it has charged, even the only two remotely common 4x resists in the tier (Heatran and Cloyster) are utterly crippled if the paralysis kicks in. And we all know that 30% chance of a secondary effect happening isn't exactly low (hello Scald). It will also do well over 50% to virtually all the 2x resists and outright OHKO everything else.

    On top of it, since it has the "Sky Attack-esque move" stigma associated to it, nobody truly expects it, which makes them even less prepared to face the move.
    Since FS's effective power is only slightly lower than two consecutive Ice Punches and ice is quite possibly the best attacking type in ubers, being locked on it the first time you use it isn't that bad at all.
    Obviously once it has been used once the opponent will be able to play around it (second in something with Protect on the charging turn, Protect on the next), but if it kills something once, which it isn't that hard, really, it has done its job.

    Notable targets that are OHKO'd by a Choice Banded Freeze Shock but aren't OHKO'd by Kyurem-B's other moves include Ferrothorn, most Arceus formes and Tyranitar.
    I have been using it with great success so far simply because nobody expects it and its sheer power. Just try it, you won't be disappointed.
  23. gookie

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    that wasn't your argument at all, you said it was decent on the basis of a comparison to ice punch. now you're just a defending a point you didn't even make and has been discussed previously.
  24. SolarSkurge

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    Judging from my wins and losses on wifi battles and PO, I'd say Kyurem B is a solid pokemon, imo. However, it does need the rest of the team to back it up. I use a mixed tier team, and my most useful ally for Kyurem B is Bronzong, or (Insert screener here). Only problem is that any Fire or Fighting type is gonna murder this setup. Anyway, I use my Kyurem B as a mixed wall/ Physical sweeper. I'm gonna get flamed I'm sure, but I usually send out my Deoxys D for spikes to start things out, OR my Trick Room Gengar to get that out, though Deoxys D's purpose on my team is for speed spiking. After that and/ or Gengar, I use Steelix for Stealth Rocks and possible kills with Earthquake and Gyro Ball. Steelix is also equipped with magnet rise, instead of toxic to avoid earth power users and earthquake. If needed I'll use Blastoise for support in that he has rapid spin and scald for those pesky fire types (hurrhurr). Wow I trailed off. Anyway, depending on the situation, my Kyurem B has those two purposes ready, though sweeping is situational. Sub Freeze Shock is pretty damn helpful with screens set up. Sorry if this is noobish, I've only been into competition for a month.
  25. superpokefan

    superpokefan

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    there probaly going 2 be ubers, but r they already? or are they not yet anything?

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