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Black and White Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by shrang, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    ok ice beam sucks lol...... who would switch in gliscor / garchomp / groudon into kyurem-b when they all get 2hkoed by cb outrage? (at the least....)
  2. ace combat

    ace combat

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    I am testing out this current set:

    Kyurem-W @ Leftovers
    Modest/Timid
    56 HP / 236 SpA / 216 Spe
    -Substitute
    -Roost
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Fusion Flare

    This set can Wall Kyogre to a degree, as Ice Beam cannot freeze Kyurem, Chansey/Blissey can not beat it because he can stall out with Substitute/Roost (for once regular Kyurem is better at something), and it is still able to outspeed base 90s depending on the nature. Any thoughts?

    Edit: I forgot to mention, 56 HP gives it 405 Hp and therefore 101 substitutes.
  3. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    I could see it working, but the only thing it really has over Reshiram is the boosted speed. Dragon Pulse will hit harder, but Reshiram's Fusion Flare is stronger so the two balance one another out.
  4. polop

    polop
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    Actually... You get pp stalled out when vs. Chansey since it tanks Fusion Flare like it tickles while Dragon Pulse makes it lol (in other words, it will tank moves till they have nothing left, which gives them the chance to TROLL! / let something else set up and sweep). Same with Blissey, except lefties let it tank hits even better, without pressure this set loses a lot of merit.

    Kyogre won't stay in unless its a Calm Mind Rest Talk variant, and in that case Kyurem would perfer to run for the hills instead. Specs Spout still 2HKOes so yeah :(. Also I hate the fact your not abusing that wonderful Ice STAB, I think Black Kyurem would perfer to do this more since he literally only has two usable moves. That SR weakness makes this set look appetizing though...
  5. Donkey

    Donkey

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    I was thinking something like this set might work. Haven't tested it at all and its pretty much all theorymon but with Kyurem-W's nice bulk its a good way to take out scarfed dragons while neutralizing the SR weakness to a degree.

    Kyurem-W @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Turboblaze
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Roost
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Ice Beam
    - Fusion Flare

    edit: also bluffs scarf etc
  6. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Great men think alike. I tried this out and it works. You can also use stone edge over roost if you want to eliminate Ho-Oh as soon as possible. Reshiram works in a similar way. It doesnt have an ice stab so it can opt to use stone edge over the ice beam slot. BTW use Draco Meteor instead.
  7. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Specs Water Spout will never 2HKO Kyurem-W unless it crits. Every Kyurem-W set should run enough speed to outspeed base 90's, so you can hit Kyogre and weaken its Water Spout before it can KO you.
  8. polop

    polop
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    All right fine it OHKOes with rocks happy? (82.72% - 97.53%) is the amount Specs Ogre does to the current set with a spout, and unless Dragon Pulse crits its facing a 2HKO if stealth Rocks aren't up. It doesn't even have to use Spout, Surf 2HKOes with rocks (49.63% - 58.52%) while still bearing a hefty chance to 2HKO without them (66%ish chane to 2HKO then), while Hydro Pump does the same except it has a chance of OHKOing with rocks (66.17% - 78.02%).

    This reminds me of habantina which worked effectively this gen while I was testing it, it looks like it'd be geared more to rain teams though to take out Palkia and Latias so I'm thinking Focus Blast > Fusion Flare, and agreeing Anikrahman on Draco Meteor > Dragon Pulse, Dragon Pulse is just too weak :(.
  9. Donkey

    Donkey

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    yea good points on the set, it definitely needs the power.
  10. ace combat

    ace combat

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    It is probably important to remember the Kyurem OUTSPEEDS Kyogre so that it can roost BEFORE the second surf/spout hits. Also if you are including rock damage on your calc you should also include it on Kyogre because you would have to be a pretty bad player to allow them to set up rocks and then send Kyogre in with no damage and still not set up rocks yourself.
  11. polop

    polop
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    You completely ignored my Hydro Pump calculations then :(. Also a Water Spout with Stealth Rock damage still does more then a Hydro Pump (72.35% - 85.19%), that is the damage Kyruem-W takes assuming Kyogre has taken stealth rock damage.

    Also the roost arguement is just silly.

    Kyurem switches in, stealth rocks damage it, takes incoming Water Spout, doesn't OHKO (assuming EXTREMELY LOW roll here) -> Kyurem at 7% HP roosts, Water Spout does way more then 50% + 7% -> dead Kyurem.

    The same thing can be applied to Hydro Pump and Surfs that hit an average roll, except Surf will take a bit longer to wear down Kyurem-W down but in any case, its baiting a crit and chances are (higher then 50% chance) that Kyruem-W will be taking more damage then recovering if Kyogre uses Surf. If Kyogre's running Hydro Pump Kyurem will die as it roosts a second time if Hydro Pump hasn't already OHKOed it.
  12. Red Striker

    Red Striker

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    You know, people keep complaining about the fact that Kyurem-B doesn't have a great Phys. Ice STAB move, yet did anyone think about a mixed variant of Kyurem-B? I've run the calcs., and so far, I like what I see with an EV set of 168 Att / 88 SAtt / 252 Spe. along with a Naive Nature while holding a Life Orb.

    88 SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Groudon: 90.59% - 106.93%
    43.75% chance to OHKO

    88 SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs 252 HP/80 SpDef Lugia: 53.37% - 62.74%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    88 SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Arceus-Ground: 65.54% - 77.03%
    2 hits to KO

    88 SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Skarmory: 49.7% - 58.68%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    88 SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs 176 HP/252 SpDef Excadrill: 42.96% - 50.37%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers) <-- Okay, that's still a problem


    88 SpAtk Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Excadrill: 66.3% - 77.9%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)


    As you can see, a mixed Kyurem-B set might not be too bad. I've been trying it, and so far, so good.
  13. Lugiatina

    Lugiatina

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    Exactly what I was thinking. Maybe a Naughty set with 4atk/252 Sp. Atk/252 Spe might work as well. I would use Outrage/FusionBolt/Ice Beam/HP Fire or Focus Blast on that set. Black Kyurem's attack stat is so massive that it really does not need investment at all and you can EV it in it's lower offenses.
  14. FailAtGTA

    FailAtGTA

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    Im guessing we wont be able to use both Kyurem varients on one team. :/

    If I had to pick, I would defintately choose White Kyurem as it does more damage, according to a lot of people. Black Kyurem doesnt seem to have a good physical movepool, making most of its epic physical Attack stat go to waste due to having to have a mixed set to do any harm. Im sure Ill get destroyed by one in the future though.
  15. HybridHerp

    HybridHerp

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    Life orb kyurem white combined with a tailwind user is a terrifying thing indeed
    I have yet to play with Kyurem black...but I am excited for a choice band set
  16. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    specs kyurem is probably the most powerful pokemon in the metagame atm, barring maybe kyogre. it guarantees a kill if you can get it in safely and the opposing team lacks a blissey.

    kyurem black pretty much sucks as much as a pokemon with 170 attack can suck. it's "ok", but kyurem-w completely outclasses it and all it can really do is lure in ferro and ohko with freeze shock (it can't even 2hko with sr+spikes and outrage). LO kyurem-b or lefties sub kyurem-b is probably better than cb kyurem-b just because it's so much harder to wall it (not to mention you can do cute things with sub freeze-shock) but it still really isn't that good because you still get hopelessly walled with stuff like steel arceus, and forry uses you as horrible set-up bait unless you use hidden power fire, which still isn't doing that much in the rain.
  17. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Adamant CB Outrage vs 252/0 Ferrothorn: 44.3%-52.3%. Pretty solid 2HKO with SR and Spikes, it seems, and still the case with Jolly.

    Mix Kyurem-B sounds interesting though as I am thinking about it. STAB Ice Beam lets it pummel through certain walls that other mixed attackers could only dream about. And instead of being revengeable by Kyogre, Kyurem-B can take it on pretty well, being able to Roost on it. Something about it seems off though...

    Kyurem-B @ Life Orb
    Trait:Teravolt
    EVs: 136 Atk / 248 SAtk / 124 Spd
    Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
    - Ice Beam
    - Outrage
    - Fusion Bolt
    - Roost / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire

    EVs: maxed out SA, gave enough Speed to outrun min Speed Lugia (figurative speed, decide on your own as to how much you want), and rest into Attack, with 4 points from SA moved in for the bonus point.

    Some calcs:

    Outrage:
    vs. 252/0 Arceus (neutral): 61.5%-72.5%
    vs. 0/252 Chansey: 72%-84%
    vs. 4/0 Mewtwo: 99%+
    vs. 252/0 Ferrothorn: 36%-43%
    vs. 252/0 Dialga: 67.6%-79.7%

    Ice Beam:
    vs. 252/0 Groudon: 100%+
    vs. 252/0 Lugia: 61%-72%
    vs. 252/252+ Ferrothorn: 35%-41% <- this could be an issue
    vs. 252/0 Arceus (super effective): 73%-86%
    vs. 252/252+ Arceus (super effective): 54.5%- 64.9%

    Fusion Bolt:
    vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 44%-52%. (Get SR and Spikes down for a 2hko. That or max out Attack - it will do 47%-55% which 2HKOes after Spikes + Leftovers).
    vs. 252/0 Forretress: 37.6%-43% (Solid 3HKO here, but do you really want a 3HKO?)
    vs. 252/0 Kyogre: 97%+
    vs. 248/0 Ho-Oh: 94%+ (max out attack to guarantee OHKO).

    Back to what I said about something off about Mix Kyurem-B. I don't know what it is - perhaps a 4 moveslot syndrome of some kind (Roost vs Focus Blast/HP Fire here). Or the 3HKOes on Ferro and Forry, or the Stealth Rock and Spikes weaknesses not meshing well with that (or the Life Orb). Or perhaps the fact that its most damaging move here is Outrage, which almost sounds like an incentive to just go back to CBing...I don't know. Then there's the EV spread which I feel like is ignoring his base 95 Speed but at the same time it doesnt seem that he will do a lot of damage without investment, even with 170 base attack. I'm still confused on this thing ;_;

    Or maybe I'm too tunneled on calcs.

    Maybe everything will work out in practice. Except it has been difficult to find a spot for Kyurem-B in a team...

    EDIT:

    Donkey's Kyurem-W set seems like it has a lot of potential in messing up rain teams that lack Chansey/Blissey/Steel Arceus (without Focus Blast). I do wonder, though, if going Modest and investing in Special Defense is a viable (though weird) option. Kyurem-W has so much SAtk that it might not even need to invest in Special Attack to deal tons of damage (413 without investment; it's higher than 252 SAtk Timid Mewtwo 9.9, and you could invest in SDef or something and absorb Palkia's Draco Meteor with plenty of life to live by. Maybe I'm insane because I just considered a 40 HP / 216 Speed / 252 SDef Modest Kyurem-W (which btw could live a Rayquaza Life Orb Draco Meteor after SR, with Haban, as well as surviving Scarf Palkia's DM after SR + Spikes).
  18. Varfor

    Varfor

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    From what I can see, the defensive EVs don't help Kyurem-W much. The haban berry bears most of the attacks, turning almost all Dragon type attacks that would OHKO into 2KOs (excluding choice specs/band dragons and LO Draco Meteors coming off of 150 Sp.A). However, the Haban berry only works on the first hit, so none of these moves can become 3KOs, even with your suggested special investment.
    However, the specially defensive investment would help against non-dragon special attackers such as Kyogre, as the scarfed form only deals 29.42 - 34.66% against specially defensive Kyurem-W with Water Spout, as opposed to 38.1 - 45.01% against Kyurem-W with no specially defensive investment. This turns a 2KO with Stealth Rock into a 3KO with Stealth Rock, and if Stealth Rock is up on their side, you can 2KO in return with Draco Meteor 98% of the time. If you instead run 252 Sp.A and a timid nature, Kyurem-W would still be unable to OHKO Kyogre, and would also risk being 2KOd in return, losing the encounter due to Kyogre's higher speed.
    On the other hand, you lose the ability to OHKO several pokemon, such as Latias. With 252 Sp.A and a Timid nature, Kyurem-W will OHKO Latias holding Soul Dew (with an EV spread of 252 HP / 0 Sp.D) 62.5% of the time with Draco Meteor if Stealth Rock is up, while with 0 Sp.A and a Modest nature, this drops to a mere 25%.
    Also, you would lose out on outspeeding max speed base 90s, which is one of the main advantages of Kyurem-W over the base 90 pokemon. This would mean that they would get more hits against you before you can KO them, making the defensive investment almost useless as unless you can OHKO them, the base 90 dragons that run max speed would always 2KO you with Draco-Meteor or Dragon Pulse(assuming 252 Sp.A and a timid nature).
    While the idea would be quite viable, I think that the Haban berry would be making a bigger difference than the EV spread and you would have to take into account the fact that for the things you gain defensively, you would lose something offensively as well.

    Edit:
    It also seems that you are effectively trying to turn Kyurem-W into Dialga. Dialga does not need the Haban berry, as it takes dragon type hits neutrally, and though Kyurem-W actually has better special defense than dialga, it doesn't have the typing to back it up. In my opinion, the only reason that you should be using Kyurem-W is for its base 170 Special Attack and its base 95 Speed. Lowering these two stats removes the purpose of using Kyurem-W as with your set base 90 speed pokemon with 150 Special attack will outspeed it and still hit almost as hard, having just 14 Sp.A lower than Kyurem-W if they have an EV spread of 252 Sp.A / 252 Spd with a Timid nature.
  19. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !
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    I dont think a subset is worth the try, same goes for Roost, he just doesnt have the defense / type for it. Also, with Lati@s come back, I except Gyroball on Ferrothorn a lot more often. Zekrom is in all way better than Kyurem-B as a mixed, better typing and STAB (so movepool more interesting). I think you should stick with the CB set, you can still use the mixed but be prepared for a Zekrom with less steroide.
  20. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Zekrom is in no way better than Kyurem-B as a mixed attacker. Groudon always loses to Kyurem-B, while it easily beats Zekrom for instance.
    Also Zekrom usually doesn't have room to run Focus Blast, while Kyurem-B can afford running Blizzard to 2HKO specially defensive Ferrothorn (they have the same accuracy anyway).
    So, Kyurem-B beats Ferrothorn and Groudon, both extremely common pokemon that mixed Zekrom has trouble with. That alone should tell you how much better Kyurem-B performs as a mixed attacker.

    And yes, Kyurem DOES have the typing to afford running Sub and Roost. You can see steel- and dragon-type attacks coming from a mile away because they're STAB'd 99% of the time, rock-type moves are ALWAYS physical with the exception of Arceus-Rock's Judgement and most walls in ubers use fire, electric or ice attacks, none of which really bother Kyurem. Not to mention that it can make 101 subs.
    The Fightning weakness is annoying but it's pretty much the only one that does bother Kyurem and it's easy to cover with teammates.
  21. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !
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    Focus Blast: 43.56 - 51.48%
    Draco Meteor: 75.74 - 89.35%

    Easily beats Zekrom you said.

    Bolt Strike / Outrage-Dclaw / Draco Meteor / Focus Blast. I dont know what you are talking about when saying there is no room, you really dont know what you are talking about.

    Nobody would let Groudon, who is weak to an Ice move, vs Kyurem-B who has a strong Ice Beam in the pocket. Zekrom lure Groudon and kill him straight and easily. Zekrom take 12% on SR, has access to an incredible dual STAB, lure what you need to lure and kill them. It seems you never used / saw MixKrom, please dont talk about him in that case. Dont be fooled by the 170 base stat.

    I'm not saying you cant run a subroost, but he's going to be incredibly shaky. He's SR weak, Arceus can setup on it (a neutral form, I dont even bother talking about SteelCeus/FightCeus or some other form like this), Ferrothorn can take some hit and break the sub with Gyro (and here, he can just protect/leech seed if you attack and dont sub), your staying power is ridiculous... seriously, a 4 slot off is way better, or 3+roost, but I'm really doubtful about a subroost.
  22. Varfor

    Varfor

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    Considering that Zekrom needs a Life Orb to deal that much damage and Groudon will never be OHKOd by Zekrom, even with Stealth Rock, and that Groudon can deal 86.21 - 102.05% in return with Earthquake, which is a guarenteed OHKO with Stealth Rock and Life Orb damage, I would say that Groudon has no trouble in beating Zekrom, though it comes out of the encounter on fairly low health.
    Zekrom also likes to run Volt Switch to maintain offensive momentum, often dropping Focus Blast in favor of it. Dragon Claw can also be used in addition to Ourtage to prevent being locked into Outrage when a weaker hit is required.

    Though most people would not leave Groudon in against Kyurem-B, even forcing a switch is a plus as Groudon may have difficulty coming back in later in the game. While Zekrom does lure Groudon, it does not kill it easily unless Groudon switches in on Draco Meteor.
  23. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !
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    And who the hell would send their Zekrom on Groudon ? You want to lure and remove Groudon from the battle, Zekrom is one, if not the best, Mixed for this purpose. If you just want to OHKO Groudon, use something else like SpecsDialga or Kyurem-W/B, but that's not the point here. Your logic is pretty bad dude.

    It's not because you use Voltswitch that it made a good option. Voltswitch is one of the last and worst option for MixKrom, you want to lure and kill Mons and you have the tools for it with these 4 moves, why would you use Voltswitch when you can kill them ?

    Dropping Focus Blast for Dragon Claw is an option, but a less interesting option since you gain more than you lose with FB. For exemple, you cant 2HKO Dialga with DClaw which you do with FB (bar miss ofc).

    As an offense user, I can assure that forcing the switch isnt as good as you think. Luring and killing Groudon for the all match is far better than just "forcing" the switch. Test it and you'll understand, but it seems everything you're talking about is pure theory ...

    Groudon is one of the best switch-in with GroundCeus and Ferrothorn. Unless he know you have Draco Meteor or you're Mixed, he'll come for sure.
  24. Varfor

    Varfor

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    I never said anything about someone switching in a Zekrom on Groudon. However Groudon can easily switch into Zekrom on a predicted electric type move and OHKO with Earthquake. Though you could just constantly spam Draco Meteor against teams with Groudon to catch it on the switch, you will have problems if Groudon does not switch in. While Zekrom can be used as a lure for Groudon, you have to rely a lot on prediction and luck.

    I was refering to Zekrom in general, not specifically MixKrom. Scarf Zekrom for example is better with Volt Switch than with Focus Blast, as being locked into Focus Blast pretty much forces you to switch anyway due to its bad accuracy and how weak it is unless it hits super effectively.

    Forcing a switch will often neutralize a Pokemon for the rest of the match, especially if entry hazards are up or if it is at less than half health. Also, with the many special attackers in the Tier, Groudon finds it difficult to switch in most of the time, and is only really safe switching in on defensive Pokemon, or on electric type moves (coming from Zekrom for instance).

    From what you are saying, Groudon is not one of the best switch-ins for Zekrom, if Zekrom lures and kills Groudon so easily, do you think that people will want to switch it in?

    This conversation is getting off topic, as this thread is not meant for discussing Zekrom's viability against Groudon.
    It seems to me that your entire argument of how Zekrom is a better mixed attacker than Kyurem-B is that Zekrom lures Groudon, while Kyurem-B makes it switch out. Kyurem-B however has a better special movepool than Zekrom, due to its STAB Ice Beam, while it only misses out on STAB Bolt Strike on the physical side. Bolt Strike, considering that Outrage hits harder coming off Kyurem-B than Bolt Strike does off Zekrom, is really only useful against Jirachi as Focus Blast covers all other steel type pokemon other than Skarmory, who doesn't have enough special bulk to stand up to Kyurem-W anyway and can do nothing against it but phaze.
  25. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !
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    I said it many times before, and i'm going to say it again : if you dont know how MixKrom works, how a mixed works, what the uber metagame is, then stop. You use your mindgame in every turn in uber, every turn, if you dont like it, then dont play in this tier. You're saying that MixKrom isnt suited for luring Groudon because he cant OHKO him ? Come on ... do you understand how ridiculous you are ? I'm trying to help you, you know.

    Yeah, you're talking about Zekrom in general but the discussion is about MixKrom, thanks for the concern thought.

    Is it a troll or something ? Scarf/BandKrom or any physically oriented sets and MixKrom are completely different. Still, when you dont know what the sets is, most of the time, you're going to bring Groudon who can take some hit since MixKrom isnt that common. Your lacks of experience is incredible, not only in Uber, but in general since its one of the base you should have ...

    Yeah, you guys are off topic, i'm not the one talking about Groudon, I just said Kyurem-B is going to be a less interesting mixed than Zekrom.

    Too bad if it's the only thing you understood.

    KB hit hard, really hard, i'm not saying the opposite. However, when compared with Zekrom, who take less on SR and can come more than KB, dont let a free setup for Arceus and kill almost the same thing, Zekrom is, IMO, better on the paper (didnt tried it, like most of us anyway).

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