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Black and White Kyurem

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by shrang, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Varfor

    Varfor

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    From what I can see, the defensive EVs don't help Kyurem-W much. The haban berry bears most of the attacks, turning almost all Dragon type attacks that would OHKO into 2KOs (excluding choice specs/band dragons and LO Draco Meteors coming off of 150 Sp.A). However, the Haban berry only works on the first hit, so none of these moves can become 3KOs, even with your suggested special investment.
    However, the specially defensive investment would help against non-dragon special attackers such as Kyogre, as the scarfed form only deals 29.42 - 34.66% against specially defensive Kyurem-W with Water Spout, as opposed to 38.1 - 45.01% against Kyurem-W with no specially defensive investment. This turns a 2KO with Stealth Rock into a 3KO with Stealth Rock, and if Stealth Rock is up on their side, you can 2KO in return with Draco Meteor 98% of the time. If you instead run 252 Sp.A and a timid nature, Kyurem-W would still be unable to OHKO Kyogre, and would also risk being 2KOd in return, losing the encounter due to Kyogre's higher speed.
    On the other hand, you lose the ability to OHKO several pokemon, such as Latias. With 252 Sp.A and a Timid nature, Kyurem-W will OHKO Latias holding Soul Dew (with an EV spread of 252 HP / 0 Sp.D) 62.5% of the time with Draco Meteor if Stealth Rock is up, while with 0 Sp.A and a Modest nature, this drops to a mere 25%.
    Also, you would lose out on outspeeding max speed base 90s, which is one of the main advantages of Kyurem-W over the base 90 pokemon. This would mean that they would get more hits against you before you can KO them, making the defensive investment almost useless as unless you can OHKO them, the base 90 dragons that run max speed would always 2KO you with Draco-Meteor or Dragon Pulse(assuming 252 Sp.A and a timid nature).
    While the idea would be quite viable, I think that the Haban berry would be making a bigger difference than the EV spread and you would have to take into account the fact that for the things you gain defensively, you would lose something offensively as well.

    Edit:
    It also seems that you are effectively trying to turn Kyurem-W into Dialga. Dialga does not need the Haban berry, as it takes dragon type hits neutrally, and though Kyurem-W actually has better special defense than dialga, it doesn't have the typing to back it up. In my opinion, the only reason that you should be using Kyurem-W is for its base 170 Special Attack and its base 95 Speed. Lowering these two stats removes the purpose of using Kyurem-W as with your set base 90 speed pokemon with 150 Special attack will outspeed it and still hit almost as hard, having just 14 Sp.A lower than Kyurem-W if they have an EV spread of 252 Sp.A / 252 Spd with a Timid nature.
  2. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    I dont think a subset is worth the try, same goes for Roost, he just doesnt have the defense / type for it. Also, with Lati@s come back, I except Gyroball on Ferrothorn a lot more often. Zekrom is in all way better than Kyurem-B as a mixed, better typing and STAB (so movepool more interesting). I think you should stick with the CB set, you can still use the mixed but be prepared for a Zekrom with less steroide.
  3. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Focus Blast: 43.56 - 51.48%
    Draco Meteor: 75.74 - 89.35%

    Easily beats Zekrom you said.

    Bolt Strike / Outrage-Dclaw / Draco Meteor / Focus Blast. I dont know what you are talking about when saying there is no room, you really dont know what you are talking about.

    Nobody would let Groudon, who is weak to an Ice move, vs Kyurem-B who has a strong Ice Beam in the pocket. Zekrom lure Groudon and kill him straight and easily. Zekrom take 12% on SR, has access to an incredible dual STAB, lure what you need to lure and kill them. It seems you never used / saw MixKrom, please dont talk about him in that case. Dont be fooled by the 170 base stat.

    I'm not saying you cant run a subroost, but he's going to be incredibly shaky. He's SR weak, Arceus can setup on it (a neutral form, I dont even bother talking about SteelCeus/FightCeus or some other form like this), Ferrothorn can take some hit and break the sub with Gyro (and here, he can just protect/leech seed if you attack and dont sub), your staying power is ridiculous... seriously, a 4 slot off is way better, or 3+roost, but I'm really doubtful about a subroost.
  4. Varfor

    Varfor

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    Considering that Zekrom needs a Life Orb to deal that much damage and Groudon will never be OHKOd by Zekrom, even with Stealth Rock, and that Groudon can deal 86.21 - 102.05% in return with Earthquake, which is a guarenteed OHKO with Stealth Rock and Life Orb damage, I would say that Groudon has no trouble in beating Zekrom, though it comes out of the encounter on fairly low health.
    Zekrom also likes to run Volt Switch to maintain offensive momentum, often dropping Focus Blast in favor of it. Dragon Claw can also be used in addition to Ourtage to prevent being locked into Outrage when a weaker hit is required.

    Though most people would not leave Groudon in against Kyurem-B, even forcing a switch is a plus as Groudon may have difficulty coming back in later in the game. While Zekrom does lure Groudon, it does not kill it easily unless Groudon switches in on Draco Meteor.
  5. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    And who the hell would send their Zekrom on Groudon ? You want to lure and remove Groudon from the battle, Zekrom is one, if not the best, Mixed for this purpose. If you just want to OHKO Groudon, use something else like SpecsDialga or Kyurem-W/B, but that's not the point here. Your logic is pretty bad dude.

    It's not because you use Voltswitch that it made a good option. Voltswitch is one of the last and worst option for MixKrom, you want to lure and kill Mons and you have the tools for it with these 4 moves, why would you use Voltswitch when you can kill them ?

    Dropping Focus Blast for Dragon Claw is an option, but a less interesting option since you gain more than you lose with FB. For exemple, you cant 2HKO Dialga with DClaw which you do with FB (bar miss ofc).

    As an offense user, I can assure that forcing the switch isnt as good as you think. Luring and killing Groudon for the all match is far better than just "forcing" the switch. Test it and you'll understand, but it seems everything you're talking about is pure theory ...

    Groudon is one of the best switch-in with GroundCeus and Ferrothorn. Unless he know you have Draco Meteor or you're Mixed, he'll come for sure.
  6. Varfor

    Varfor

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    I never said anything about someone switching in a Zekrom on Groudon. However Groudon can easily switch into Zekrom on a predicted electric type move and OHKO with Earthquake. Though you could just constantly spam Draco Meteor against teams with Groudon to catch it on the switch, you will have problems if Groudon does not switch in. While Zekrom can be used as a lure for Groudon, you have to rely a lot on prediction and luck.

    I was refering to Zekrom in general, not specifically MixKrom. Scarf Zekrom for example is better with Volt Switch than with Focus Blast, as being locked into Focus Blast pretty much forces you to switch anyway due to its bad accuracy and how weak it is unless it hits super effectively.

    Forcing a switch will often neutralize a Pokemon for the rest of the match, especially if entry hazards are up or if it is at less than half health. Also, with the many special attackers in the Tier, Groudon finds it difficult to switch in most of the time, and is only really safe switching in on defensive Pokemon, or on electric type moves (coming from Zekrom for instance).

    From what you are saying, Groudon is not one of the best switch-ins for Zekrom, if Zekrom lures and kills Groudon so easily, do you think that people will want to switch it in?

    This conversation is getting off topic, as this thread is not meant for discussing Zekrom's viability against Groudon.
    It seems to me that your entire argument of how Zekrom is a better mixed attacker than Kyurem-B is that Zekrom lures Groudon, while Kyurem-B makes it switch out. Kyurem-B however has a better special movepool than Zekrom, due to its STAB Ice Beam, while it only misses out on STAB Bolt Strike on the physical side. Bolt Strike, considering that Outrage hits harder coming off Kyurem-B than Bolt Strike does off Zekrom, is really only useful against Jirachi as Focus Blast covers all other steel type pokemon other than Skarmory, who doesn't have enough special bulk to stand up to Kyurem-W anyway and can do nothing against it but phaze.
  7. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    I said it many times before, and i'm going to say it again : if you dont know how MixKrom works, how a mixed works, what the uber metagame is, then stop. You use your mindgame in every turn in uber, every turn, if you dont like it, then dont play in this tier. You're saying that MixKrom isnt suited for luring Groudon because he cant OHKO him ? Come on ... do you understand how ridiculous you are ? I'm trying to help you, you know.

    Yeah, you're talking about Zekrom in general but the discussion is about MixKrom, thanks for the concern thought.

    Is it a troll or something ? Scarf/BandKrom or any physically oriented sets and MixKrom are completely different. Still, when you dont know what the sets is, most of the time, you're going to bring Groudon who can take some hit since MixKrom isnt that common. Your lacks of experience is incredible, not only in Uber, but in general since its one of the base you should have ...

    Yeah, you guys are off topic, i'm not the one talking about Groudon, I just said Kyurem-B is going to be a less interesting mixed than Zekrom.

    Too bad if it's the only thing you understood.

    KB hit hard, really hard, i'm not saying the opposite. However, when compared with Zekrom, who take less on SR and can come more than KB, dont let a free setup for Arceus and kill almost the same thing, Zekrom is, IMO, better on the paper (didnt tried it, like most of us anyway).
  8. Varfor

    Varfor

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    I know perfectly well how MixKrom, mixed attackers and the Uber metagame works, however MixKrom will completely fail to deal with Groudon if you mispredict and many opponents will outpredict you.
    I am not saying that MixKrom isn't suited for luring Groudon because he can't OHKO him, I am saying that because MixKrom cannot OHKO Groudon, Groudon is still a threat for MixKrom as it can OHKO back. And you say that you are trying to help me? All that you seem to have been doing is insulting me.
    I agree that many people will send Groudon in to deal with Zekrom, however it is those who do not who may give you problems.
    Actually, you are talking quite a lot about Groudon.
    Though Zekrom deals with the same pokemon that Kyurem-B does, the same is true in reverse. Kyurem-B can deal with everything that Zekrom can, but can do more damage in the process. From what I can see, the only advantage Zekrom has over Kyurem-B is its neutrality to Stealth Rock and a slightly better defensive type, while Kyurem-B hits harder, is faster and is bulkier.
  9. Bossness

    Bossness

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    P.S I cant tell you how annoying some people can be. I had an argument similar to this in the Uber CCAT 2.
  10. Varfor

    Varfor

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    However beating Groudon also requires that Groudon switches in on a Draco-Meteor. If Groudon instead switches in on Bolt-Strike, Groudon can survive a Draco Meteor and KO.
    0 Attack neutral nature Groudon does 80.1 - 94.82% with to 104HP / 0 Def Lonely (the standard nature on MixKrom) Zekrom. This is a guaranteed OHKO including 12% Stealth Rock damage and 10% Life Orb recoil.

    Zekrom's Draco-Meteor can be easily sponged by all of the Steel type Pokemon in the tier, considering that most teams use one of these, switching it in before sending in Groudon would make Zekrom unable to take down Groudon with Draco-Meteor. Also, I have used Arceus-Ground and Ferrothorn together very successfully on a rain stall team, so I would not say that they are never used together.
    Which of my arguments would you consider a pointless argument that cannot be backed up?

    We were talking about Mixed Zekrom and Mixed Kyurem-B, so substitue+hone claws is irrelevant. Although Kyurem-B lacks a secondary physical STAB, Jirachi is the only pokemon that troubles mixed Kyurem-B because of it; if you have trouble with Jirachi then sure, use Zekrom instead, but otherwise mixed Kyurem-B does better than mixed Zekrom (due to its better attack, defenses and speed as mentioned in my previous post).
  11. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    I disagree with Mixed Kyurem-B doing better overall than Zekrom for a number of reasons.

    1) Zekrom can actually open a slot for a recovery move (Bolt Strike/DM/Focus Blast/Roost), while Kyurem-B has to sacrifice coverage for it (specifically, the ability to hit Steel Arceus/Ferrothorn/Forretress). The access to a recovery move is pretty significant, as it allows Zekrom to counteract plays against its Draco Meteor and stay alive long enough to see walls thoroughly broken.

    2) In addition to point 1, Kyurem-B is Stealth Rock weak and Zekrom isn't. This means that Kyurem-B will have more issues staying alive, which would favor Roost, which it may not be able to find the moveslot for. Kyurem-B also possesses less resistances to switch in on.

    3) Kyurem-B is forced to Outrage lock itself to actually damage Chansey or any Arceus formes that isn't weak to its attacks, which can be risky (Chansey particularly as it is slower, can survive a hit, Softboiled, and switch to Ferrothorn/Forretress and potentially destroy you). This means that Kyurem-B cant significantly dent these Arceus on switch in without retaliation. Zekrom does not suffer from this issue due to Bolt Strike. Kyurem-B can use Dragon Claw to 2HKO Chansey, but in that case it loses its power advantage over Zek. Not to mention you still need a ton of investment and it's not even guaranteed to 2HKO at max EVs.

    Re: Groudon vs Mix Zekrom: Due to how much Draco Meteor does to Groudon and Zekrom's likelyhood to outrun it it doesnt take a lot of previous damage for Zekrom to blast through Groudon one on one.

    Notable counters to Mix Zekrom: Ground Arceus, Grass Arceus, the rare Electric Arceus
    Notable counters to Mix Kyurem-B: Steel Arceus, Fighting Arceus, Jirachi. Don't forget point #3.

    Of course, that's not to say that Kyurem-B doesnt have its advantages, but it does have a number of disadvantages that make it not so appealing.
  12. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Jibaku is a Zekrom fan :(

    I like to say the Ice-STAB for Kyurem-B isn't all that amazing because it has no physical STAB Ice move to use. Zekrom's Bolt Strike is about as strong as Kyurem-B's Outrage anyway. Kyurem-B is better off using Mixed sets with Ice Beam to OHKO Groudon and 2HKO Grass Arceus easily. The lack of powerful physical moves outside of Outrage really hurt Kyurem-B.

    Kyurem-B also has a hard time hurting Forretress and Ferrothorn. Most Ferrothorn tend to carry Protect anyway and Gyro Ball will hurt Kyurem-B.

    Of course, that's not to say that Kyurem-B doesnt have its advantages
    -Jibaku forgotten Kyurem-B is actually bulkier than Zekrom. The Stealth Rock weakness sucks though. Kyurem-B can OHKO Kyogre with CB Outrage while not getting smashed by Ice Beam like Zekrom.

    -Zekrom is checked by Ground and Grass Arceus while Kyurem-B has less problem with those thanks to Ice Beam.

    -Kyurem-B is slightly faster than Zekrom :) If the two meet each other, Kyurem-B wins.

    Kyurem-B can try (Outrage/Ice Beam/Fusion Bolt/Roost) Not sure if Earth Power is strong enough to 2HKO Specially Defensive Jirachi so Fusion Bolt fits better. It has base 170 Attack and no good STABs to use outside of Outrage, even Rampardos gets Head Smash :(

    Outrage is the only powerful physical STAB move Kyurem-B has. Fusion Bolt OHKOes Ho-Oh and deals some damage to Lugia. ( Lugia still beats you btw, it is faster, and can just Reflect + Roost on Ice Beam or Fusion Bolt )
  13. ZetoTarken

    ZetoTarken

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    Well, Zekrom has more Special Defense while having the same Defense and because Zekrom can invest more heavily in HP, it generally has similar HP to Kyurem-B.
  14. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Lets not forget that Kyurem-b is Stealth Rock weak so whoever says that it is bulkier than Zekrom must account for Stealth Rock Damage on both pokemon. BTW Zekrom is physically bulkier than Kyurem-B. Varfor mentioned: Kyurem-B is Bulkier+Stronger+Faster than Zekrom.....let us analyse this. First let us consider the ev spread: Minimum Speed should be 216 jolly since it is faster, right? Attack or Special Attack is maximized and the rest is thrown into the other attack stat. Okay Kyurem is faster - I will give you that. Now with the jolly nature the maximum attack it can reach is 439 which is only one point higher than Zekrom's considering that Zekrom preferred nature is Adamant/Lonely/Naughy. This means that both of their outrage is as strong as the other's with Kyurem-B's being just marginally higher. Now dont go saying that Kyurem-B is stronger because it cannot be fast and strong at the same time. Zekrom has the option to use leftovers if it is using the hone claws set which is the most popular one at the moment(PO server's Statistics). Kyurem-B cannot use a viable substitute set. BTW Bolt Strike is always better than Fusion Bolt. It seems now that the only advantage Kyurem-B has over Zekrom is its Ice STAB which comes off its lower special attack. When you look at it like that, the question is: why not just use Kyurem-W? Zekrom is overall better than the other 5th gen Uber Dragons and that is why it is used a lot more.
    P.S Use the PO server statistics. The smogon uber ladder sucks as so many have said and it is very inconsistent.

    @Varfor Which team uses both Groudon AND Ferrothorn? You dont even understand how a lure works. Zekrom vs Sun team: Force out Ho-Oh/ Lugia/Forretress etc. They switch out because they dont want to take a bolt strike. Groudon switches in and takes a Draco Meteor. This is how it works - now dont say steel type is going to switch in. Which steel type? Best thing in that situation is to send in Groudon. BTW dont metion arceus formes. You only get one per team and the most common one is Normal Arceus with Ghost Arceus being second. You talk as if the team Zekrom is facing will be loaded with its counters - this is rare in a real match. BTW the first time Zekrom comes in you cant even tell what set it is using. Ferrothorn switches in? Zekrom uses substitute and sets up and therby basically guarantees it kills something on the opposing team before it is forced out.

    EDIT: @Rayquaza_ below: I am done arguing. Some people just dont listen. Kyurem-B cannot switch into Kyogre. Its funny how people bring up obscure mons and moves that can check Zekrom to prove Kyurem-B is better. ICE WEAK GROUND WEAK (Groudon, Heatran, Lugia, even freaking Cresselia) LOL <--- they get hit by Zekrom hard. So you are saying that Lugia is going to come in on Zekrom to damage it with weak Ice Beam and get killed with bolt strike? Groudon is 2hkoed 81.66% of the time with CB Outrage and it is guaranteed with Stealth rock. Heatan <---- Fried after Bolt Strike (Btw which uber pokemon actually runs earth power?) The common non-stabed Ice Beams are from Mewtwo, Kyogre and some support Arceus. CB Ferrothorn is obscure. Choice Ground attack on ferrothorn? U MAD BRO? I am not sure if you have enough experience in the uber metagame. It seems to me your experience comes from OU. 125/100 means little when Kyurem is weak to Stealth Rock. BTW Reshiram and Zekrom dont even need Ground attacks(they have earth power). Quote:"which is especially true now with bulky Excadrill, Thundurus-T, Landorus-T, Lati@s and Groudon running rampant" What? Lati@s wont risk switching in and takes alot from Bolt Strike. Lets take 4th gen's Latias for example:
    252Atk Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Bolt Strike vs 112HP/0Def Latias (Neutral): 42% - 50% (141 - 167 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO. No lefties and Stealth Rock means that its prone to being 2hkoed.
    252Atk Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Bolt Strike vs 4HP/0Def Latios (Neutral): 51% - 60% (156 - 184 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. LOL
    BTW this is choice scarf Zekrom which is the weakest variant
    Landorus-T? Okay. Just Watch out for Draco Meteor:
    252SpAtk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef Landorus Therian (Neutral): 105% - 124% (339 - 399 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. LOL
    252SpAtk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom (Neutral) Dragon Pulse vs 4HP/0SpDef Landorus Therian (Neutral): 67% - 80% (217 - 256 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Zekrom's new tutor move!
    On that note, lets see how it does against Groudon:
    252SpAtk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom (Neutral) Dragon Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Groudon (Neutral): 49% - 57% (198 - 234 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 15% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers. Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock.
    Now Thundurus-T:
    252Atk Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Bolt Strike vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 116% - 136% (348 - 409 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. Teravolt negates volt absorb, so there.

    So next time you say something please back it up.

    There are others who have said that Kyurem-B is just bad. It trying to compete with Zekrom or Kyurem-W for a team slot. Even with 170 Attack its only physical STAB is Outrage and the weak Dragon Claw.
  15. zabaquer

    zabaquer

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    substitute?

    really substitute yeah it is really helpful but if only u could teach it baton pass too.
  16. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    You're telling me that a one-trick Outrage pony is superior to something that has an alternative STAB option AND can open up room for a safer and still powerful Dragon move. Oh and it can also still use Outrage too. It seems to me that you are tunneling the strength of a mixed attacker into a move that defeats the point of one. I'm sure you are aware that one of the main qualities of a mixed attacker is the combination of its strength, flexibility, and coverage. I'm not saying that Outrage is bad on a mixed attacker, but you're making it seem like that's what it's going to be throwing out most (since clearly, Outrage alone is superior to Bolt Strike + Draco Meteor??). So, if that's the case, why not just use Choice Band and blast things away with Outrage and not worry since "it's so safe"??

    I will agree with you that Electric is somewhat a meh attacking type. What you seem to be missing here is the raw power of Bolt Strike (this is why Volt Switch sucks on Mixed Zekrom). Lati@s all take a solid 2HKO to the face from Life Orbed Bolt Strike, for instance (even a min atk LO Zek Bolt guarantees >50% damage on Latios). A typical Thundurus-T is not going to live against a Zekrom LO Bolt Strike ever, taking 138% damage minimum from 400 atk Zek (ironically, Thundurus's species is Bolt Strike xD), and everything else besides the aforementioned Groundceus/Grassceus/Electriceus takes a devastating blow from Zekrom's other moves. In fact, the threat of Bolt Strike is what's letting Zekrom lure these other Pokemon and kill them, and this is something that Kyurem-B lacks - a powerful, nonlocking move that forces the absolute safest switch into it.

    Of course, there is that accuracy issue, but then again, it also comes with a decent 20% paralysis chance and it doesn't lock.

    Zekrom's weaknesses are admittedly annoying since Ground/Dragon and Ground/Ice are strong attacking combinations so it is difficult to handle that if something with both of those types come in. However, to be honest, there is no worse weakness than to Rock in Ubers. In a metagame where entry hazards are easy to set up and hard to Spin, Kyurem-B suffers really badly from residual damage. Mixed Zekrom itself struggled against residual damage when I used it (though it was able to deal a good amount of damage, thankfully), but Kyurem-B will just get crushed flat. Doesn't quite help that outside of Outrage, Kyurem-B's raw power isn't that great and can't dent things on a misprediction. Then there's also the Steel and Fighting weaknesses. Steel isn't a huge concern but Ferrothorn is pretty common and can already cause several issues to Kyurem-B already. Then there's Forretress, Steel Arceus, and Jirachi. As far as Rock type attacks, you will see it on Groudon, Landorus, Landorus-T, Ground Arceus, Rock Arceus, Terrakion, and Tyranitar. Kyurem can beat the first 4 one on one, but it still limits his ability to switch in still. Fighting type moves are seen on Mewtwo, Fighting Arceus, Darkrai, Blaziken, Terrakion, Ghost Arceus, Normal Arceus, Electric Arceus, Ice Arceus, Tyranitar, and I guess if you count them, some stray Aura Spheres/Focus Blasts from Dialga/Kyurem-B/etc.

    Also lugia's Ice Beam doesn't even break 50% on Zekrom

    Ghost Arceus, Steel Arceus, Heatran, Forretress, Ferrothorn (CB Bulldoze is a joke), Skarmory, Blissey, Chansey, Tentacruel (well it can use Ice Beam but it's kinda weak and loses Protect), Kabutops, Tyranitar (generally - I havent seen an Ice Beam one in ages), Tornadus-T.
    I have noted that this is Kyurem-B's defensive highlight and it's pretty cool. But it's still incredibly shaky, as Choice Scarf Kyogre will 2HKO with Surf after SR damage. Still, remember that Zekrom has more resistances than Kyurem-B (and isn't sr weak...), so even if it can't safely switch in to most Pokemon, it has more switch in opportunities (hello there, Ho-Oh Brave Bird).

    Maybe you can give this a second thought. Admittedly, Mixed Kyurem-B's 4-attack coverage is superior to Zekrom's, but regardless, it lacks that kind of power that dents Pokemon resisting its moves, outside of one move that locks it in and kind of goes against the point of his coverage. And like Zekrom, Kyurem-B still has some hard counters regardless of what it runs.
  17. CottonPuff

    CottonPuff

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    Really? Your still talking about that? I apologized for arguing, how about you?

    No. Substitute is an amazingly helpful and powerful move, and should be revered to as such.
  18. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Man sorry. I just sort of wanted to refer to it....not to offend you. BTW Rayquaza_ i replied to your post in my last post - Pretty much what Jibaku said with some added information and calculations.
  19. Varfor

    Varfor

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    If you are comparing the two, you really should compare them with the same nature. If both of them have the same nature and EV spread, Kyurem-B has both higher attack and higher speed.

    We were discussing the mixed sets, so I don't see how this is relevant.

    Considering that Ferrothorn checks most Kyogre variants, I would consider it quite viable for a Sun team as Kyogre troubles Sun teams in general. While Arceus-Ground is not present on most teams, it is one of the more common formes of Arceus and there is little that Zekrom can do against it other than switch out or lock itself into Outrage and risk being crippled by Will-o-Wisp. While a team with more than one of Zekrom's counters is rare, it is a possibility and therefore must be considered.
    While you cannot know for sure what set Zekrom is using the first time it comes in during a match, you can guess based upon what Pokemon they send it in against and you can at least guess the move they will use. Also, considering that if you have a Zekrom counter, it is likely that they will expect you to switch to it and thus you can instead absorb the move that they think will cripple your counter.
  20. ZetoTarken

    ZetoTarken

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    But they aren't going to use the same nature/EV spread. Zekrom is going to run next to no speed while Kyurem HAS TO run speed and can't always run an attack boosting nature. Kyurem's EV spread will look more like a Rayquaza's than a Zekrom's. Part of why Zekrom is generally a better mixed attacker is it can run a more powerful/bulky EV spread than Kyurem who has to invest in speed.
  21. Bossness

    Bossness

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    I was just about to say this. Varfor keeps saying that the opponent will always predict perfectly against Zekrom. If we could predict perfectly, Mewtwo would not be used so much and we would not be able to hit Palkia with thunder when using Kyogre etc. The prediction argument works both ways. We are discussing the mixed attacker sets? Okay, Zekrom only needs Dragon Claw as a physical dragon STAB as Bolt Strike does 73%+ to chansey whereas Kyurem-B needs to use outrage to deal the same amount of damage which chansey can easily heal off and then switch to ferrothorn.
  22. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    Having an Ice STAB is great. Half of the tier is weak to it, even more than stuff that is weak to dragon. I've found Kyurem-W to be better than I expected
  23. SharKing

    SharKing

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    Of course White Kyurem would be awesome. Base 170 Sp. Attack, powerful Ice and Dragon STABs, and a Fire move that Heatran can't absorb (thank you, Turboblaze). That thing's a monster any way you look at it.

    Black Kyurem, though, I feel got really shafted. It has the game's strongest Outrage, but pretty much nothing else that Zekrom doesn't already have. It doesn't even get a decent physical Ice STAB (no, Freeze Shock isn't decent). Makes me sad.
  24. AGL

    AGL

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    I agree with Jibaku

    Although Kyurem-B is much more powerful with it's movepool for a mixed set, Zekrom is always preferable, in most team of course.

    Kyurem-B cannot switch in to Kyogre, when Zekrom is meant to switch in to a Kyogre
    i mean most of the time, Zekrom is really useful for me for OHKOing even the most bulky Kyogre, but Kyurem-B just can't

    for the Groudon thingy, i believe i will stick on to Zekrom still for this case.
    Even i don't want to switch Kyurem-B in on a Groudon. It just hurts too much. Also, since we know what our enemies are packing in their team in Gen V, we could always anticipate a Groudon Switch when we are using a Zekrom, so it should be not a problem (at least for me)

    Kyurem-B is indeed powerful. I believe it should work well together with Zekrom, but i mean it is not meant to replace a Zekrom. Zekrom cannot be replaced in our current uber game, as none can acomplishes it's job better. The only pokemon i found to replace a Zekrom is an Arceus, but still it lacks firepower.

    If by any means a Kyurem-B can replace a Zekrom's place, then let me know. I would love to hear more of these Kyurem's capability in the game.
  25. gookie

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    that's a flawed premise rayquaza_, you can't just compare base powers, you have to take into consideration the charge up turn and its vulnerabilities, this is why freeze shock isn't a great move.

    its base power being equivalent to two ice punches doesn't doesn't make it an equivalent in terms of utility at all; no comparison should be drawn

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