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Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Peterko, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Dec 19, 2004
    Thanks, I posted it for you guys especially (hence the rather tedious employment of anchor tags!). I also mainly posted it because I feel the Hall is really, really engaging and fun theorymon that anyone can partake in even if you don't actually want to play it. It's really a logic game when you think about it, since everything is 1v1 (or 2v2) and theoretically you can indeed arrive at a set or sets for a given pokemon that can "beat" the Hall, whereas in 3v3 play such endeavors are kind of impossible.

    And I say "beat" mainly because of hax items like BP, Lax Incense and Quick Claw (QC to an extent, if you can lose to just one QC activation your Hall set isn't very good). Shortly after I posted I faced this piece of shit:

    H341 | Whiscash | Quiet | Lax Incense | Earth Power | Water Pulse | Future Sight | Blizzard | SpA/SpD

    with these pokes:

    Heatran@Choice Scarf: Lava Plume/HP Electric/Sunny Day/Explosion, Rash, 100Atk/226SpA/184Spe
    Heatran@Choice Specs: Lava Plume/HP Grass/Solarbeam/Earth Power, Modest, 4HP/252SpA/252Spe

    And lost at 307 to 0.25% odds when I missed one explosion (111% min) and then with specs HP Grass too (153% min). It was really lame at the time considering I had gone out of my way to insure against losses like this by moving HP Grass to my slower Tran as I described after losing to Gastrodon because Boom missed one, but I'm back up at 350 or something (after a loss at 177 to Tyranitar because I'd had "Flash Fire" checked off on the Smogon Damage Calc which incorrectly boosts all SpA instead of just Fire attacks and therefore miscalculated Earth Power/HP Grass killing one Tyra every time). I decided not to log every battle after losing to Whiscash partly because "fuck this who cares" and partly because it obviously saves time.

    I'm harping on the (doubles) Hall partly because I wanted to encourage others to theorymon it up but with NoCheese recent exploits with TruAnt that is slightly less necessary. Though after one time like five weeks ago that I lost to Jolteon at like 90 cause I didn't Explode (I beat Jolteon 100% of the time with Scarf Boom), I adopted a "if you can beat em" mentality and thought of Jolteon's own merits for Doubles Hall, mainly because it beat me with the almost equally as doubles-marvelous Lava Plume near-clone in Discharge. I came up with something like:

    Jolteon@Sash: Discharge/HP Water/Magnet Rise/Fake Tears, Modest, 354 Speed
    Jolteon@Specs: Discharge/HP Grass, Modest, 353 Speed

    Zam is 352 Speed so that's why 354/353. With a combination of HP Water, HP Grass and Magnet Rise, Jolteon should have enough to beat ground types, but things like Tyranitar would be lame to face cause of Sand negating Sash (which may be better on Jolt2 than Specs). Double Chomp would be reliable too with Sash/CB at 332 speed to get Weavile and reliably beat Slowbro as well.

    I think Flash may be the way to go with Shuppet, since with Thunderwave you can rather reliably get Draggy set up. You're just going to want to make sure to have a second that can handle Ice Types, and Shuckle is a good idea even if only for Stealth Rock support. SR is probably the best way to help Dragonite out against pokes 2 and 3 because screw Sturdy and Sash, etc.
  2. zapboss


    Aug 4, 2012
    I'm new to the community, but I have a pretty respectable super doubles streak going right now. Some of the pokes on my team use their unreleased dream world abilities though; all their movesets would be legal if their dream world abilities were released.

    Does this thread allow streaks using unreleased dream world abilities? My apologies if this was mentioned previously in the thread, I scanned the first handful of posts and didn't see anything that answered this.
  3. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    I gave my best doubles team a spin over the last few days. I tried Protect on Tornadus for a while but went back to Substitute. I just find the advantages of it more helpful that Protect, though both are good options.

    I also tried out Ground Gem on Swampert. The loss in power from Muscle Band was only noticable in a few situations, and having such a powerful spread move up my sleeve is useful. It still isn't as good as Life Orb would be I don't think but it is a good alternative.

    Other than that it is still the same. I got to 176 wins before losing. I was facing Jolteon and Flygon leads and I chose to set up Tailwind and sacrifice Tornadus. Swampert came out and killed Jolteon with Earthquake while Infernape protected against Flygon's Outrage. Drapion comes out and instead of double targetting something like I should have I used Earthquake + Close Combat on Flygon. Flygon hit Swampert with Outrage and then both Infernape and Swampert died to Earthquake. Hydreigon comes out and kills Flygon before being critted by Drapion's poison move (Cross Poison?). Then I get screwed over by the last pokemon being that horrible Toxic + Minimize Blissey, which I can't touch.

    I lost mainly due to underestimating the opponents. If I had just double targetted Flygon or Drapion (or even Jolteon at the start to prevent the Ground Gem being used up before Drapion came out), I could have avoided this. I could see it coming when Hydriegon was my last pokemon because in my experience it can't really do things on its own like other pokemon can sometimes. Either way, I'm annoyed at myself because there is nothing more disheartening than losing a reasonably long streak that isn't long enough to beat your personal best but is still long enough to make you believe that you wasted several hours doing it. The same thing happened with my Zoroark/Suicune/Dragonite team, and it sucks. Oh well.

    Only currently released and completely legal sets are allowed, so no.

    Are you 100% sure they are illegal though? BW2 saw the release of a ton of DW abilities. Maybe they are actually legal after all? Of course, if you hacked your pokemon then it isn't going to matter...

    Well the thing that makes me a bit wary about Flash is that Shuppet is so frail that it would be lucky to get more than one Flash in, especially if it needs to use a different move. I guess 1 is better than none though, and all the other possibilities are very situational. If I use Shuckle, Skill Swap isn't as useful since nothing blocks Power Split (I guess stopping Static is good?). Same with Knock Off/Trick (Stealth Rock as Focus Sash covered nicely). I don't see Grudge being all that useful either, since Shuppet being at 1 HP most of the time means that the opponents could use ANYTHING to finish me off, so it would be hard to use it to remove particular moves...

    I don't know, I guess I won't know the best option until I try it myself (I guess Trick Room and even Sunny Day have their uses too), but I probably won't before BW2 comes out.

    EDIT: Actually does Substitute block Power Split? I honestly have no idea. Bulbapaedia seems to imply it does on its Substitute page...
  4. Koke


    Aug 5, 2012
    I’ve been enjoying the Tower/Subway threads since gen 4, but am a first time poster. All of your teams have been lots of fun to read about. I decided to wait until I broke 100 in Subway to post myself. I’d like to report a 155 streak in W2 Super Singles. Here is the team (sorry for a long post) …

    Scizor @ Lum Berry
    Adamant / Technician
    177 / 170 / 117 / 60 / 127 / 85
    Bullet Punch / Bug Bite / Roost / Swords Dance

    Salamence @ Choice Scarf
    Adamant / Moxie
    170 / 205 / 100 / 112 / 98 / 152
    Outrage / Dragon Claw / EQ / Fire Fang

    Milotic @ Leftovers
    Bold / Marvel Scale
    202 / 58 / 144 / 121 / 145 / 101
    Scald / Ice Beam / Recover / Hypnosis

    The strategy is pretty simple, an updated version of the Flygon / Scizor / Milotic team I used in 4th gen Tower. Steel / Dragon / Water has excellent type synergy, allowing many resisted switches.

    I settled on a specially bulky Scizor that I originally made for WiFi matches. Leading with Scizor usually creates a favorable matchup and it’s common to get off multiple SDs to sweep. Fire attacks are obvious and as both teammates resist, I can save Scizor for later as a revenge killer. If the matchup is poor (like against an Electric type or Hi Jump Kicker), Scizor can usually tank a hit and lower the opponent’s health into OHKO range for Mence. I use Roost over Superpower to get the most out of my bulk. Lum Berry is chosen over Life Orb for the same reason, to protect from status, and to get free Swaggers.

    MoxieMence is the latest of several choiced dragons (Haxorus, Hydreigon, Flygon, Dragonite) I’ve tried on this team. He combines the insurance of a Scarfer with the power of a Bander, allowing for pseudo DD sweeps. This Mence also capitalizes on bulky Scizor’s unfortunate tendency to almost finish off the opponent’s 2nd pokemon. I usually Outrage, which either KOs the next pokemon outright or allows Milo to finish it off. Dragon Claw is for caution, EQ is for coverage, and Fire Fang rounds out the set to cover Bug/Steels (especially Scizor and Durant). MoxieMence makes a huge difference on this team and I strongly encourage trying it in Subway.

    Milotic is an awesome pokemon. Suicune gets a lot of publicity in Subway, but I strongly believe that Milotic is the best choice for teams that rely on synergy and switches. The standard bold tank build is very reliable and has an uncanny tendency to take 45-49% from strong attacks. I use Milo as a defense pivot, status absorber, Dragon-counter, and for when I just need to dig in and weaken something. I use an updated version of the old DP Milo. While I realize using Hypnosis over Toxic now may be controversial, it fits my play style much better. 60% accuracy is dodgy, but the whole point of using it on Milo is to get out of bad situations.

    This team tends to have problems with bulky electric types, bulky Volcarona, multiple genie, and Hi Jump Kickers. OHKO Walrein is also a huge issue, since I don’t have Protect or Superpower on my team. It has ended two previous streaks, one time OHKOing my whole team, which was quite frustrating. That is the only situation where I prefer Haxorus over Mence, due to Superpower.

    A few other things to note … I don’t use Subway moveset guides. I’ve played the Subway a lot, so I’m pretty comfortable with what can happen based on what pokemon comes out. But, I like the mystery of an occasional surprise. I also only use pokemon that I play competitively, unchanged from how I normally play them. This is also a lot of fun, because it often means I am outrun by some of the wackier EVed pokemon in Subway. And last, I’d like to congratulate ntrnsc mtvtn. I love your team (somewhat similar to my own) and am thrilled to see Milotic land a spot so high on the chart. Well done!

    How I lost:

    - Scizor v. Mamoswine: Scizor BPs to ~40% HP, Mamo crits w/Stone Edge for KO
    - Milo KOs Mamoswine w/Scald
    - Milo vs. Claydol: Scald does about 60%, Claydol’s EQ does about 20%
    - Milo KOs Claydol w/Scald
    - Milo vs. Togekiss: Milo does ~30% w/Ice Beam, Togekiss T-Waves
    - paraflinch ensues, Milo hits once more, but HP berry actives, leaving Togekiss ~ 65%, KOs Milo w/Air Slash
    - Mence Outrages Togekiss to about 5% health (go figure), Togekiss Thunder Waves and paraflinches 3 times for KO … Nothing I could have done.

    Proof: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/img4993l.jpg/
  5. R Inanimate

    R Inanimate Grasp the earth, Grasp the World.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 11, 2011
    Jolteon seems like a pretty interesting choice for Double Hall. I think I thought about using it at some point after using Kingdras for Double Hall, but probably ended up writting it off due to not really coming up with a good way to deal with:

    H439 | Regice | Quiet | Sitrus Berry | Blizzard | Avalanche | Hyper Beam | Thunder Wave | Atk/SpA

    Since it just tanks Discharges like a champ, and survives 2 Specs Thunderbolts, barring criticals, due to Sitrus. Regice also has a decent chance at 2HKOing Jolteon with Blizzards

    I've been having some pretty bad luck with playing Double Castle so far. Well, more like I can't go 100 battles without overlooking something in preparation. But it's pretty silly how the moment I screw up preparation is also the moment the CPU decide to put Murphy's Law into overdrive. I usually end up needing a turn to get back into control of the battle when I screw up, except that their Quick Claws, Flinching, and Critical Hits have gone 4 for 4 in killing me during that one turn opening.
  6. Carl

    Carl or Varl
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Dec 23, 2004
    I can confirm that it does.
  7. Level 51

    Level 51 getting worse at mons day by day
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Dec 16, 2011
    So I theorymon'd a Doubles Team, any feedback?

    Shuckle @ Mental Herb
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Guard Split
    - Accupressure
    - Power Split
    - Protect

    Dragonite @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Roost

    Guard Split with Shuckle on Dragonite.
    Shuckle Accupressures Dragonite/Power Splits opponent
    Dragonite kills.
  8. R Inanimate

    R Inanimate Grasp the earth, Grasp the World.
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 11, 2011
    Shuckle being the last thing to move will probably be what kills this strategy for attempting Guard Split. Anything further is probably too much set up to be feasible in Double Subway. You leave yourself wide open for flinching, freezing, paralysis, confusion, etc. to ruin you. Not to mention that there is nothing really stopping them from KOing Dragonite or Shuckle in the one turn you give them.
  9. BeastMode2010


    Aug 27, 2011
    So I think I have found a good team for Sigi. I've gotten up to the 40s with it, but I need to change a few things around before I think it gets further. I'm using Sigilyph that I posted before, a CB Scizor (Standard set) and a Trick Timid Rotom-W. The need to get a different Rotom though, as I think a bulky one will work a lot better.

    Also, as far as my Blaziken team is going, I've gotten that up to 75 with Blaziken, Cune and a Poison Heal Gliscor. I don't want to go into too much detail as of yet because I'm not on the board. Just thought I'd throw an update out there. lol.
  10. KOTR


    Jul 7, 2011
    So I think about the Subway a lot, but I've never really put together a team to have a go with. I had an idea today, though: Slowbro, Volcarona, and Lucario. Bear with me, my knowledge of the Subway is fairly limited and I'm human, so it's probably not perfect.

    The idea is to tank physical attackers with Scald and Slack Off. Against Special attackers, he wants to T-Wave and switch out. Preferably with enough HP to regenerate back to full so that he's useful later on if things go awry.

    Alternatively, this slot can go to Rotom-W because it has the WoW/T-Wave combination. I'm leaning more toward Bro at this point though because of more reliable recovery and Regenerator, which means Slowbro can be just effective late game as he can a lead.

    Flamethrower is filler. I figure it would be a good answer to Taunt Whimsicott (which I think is present). It's also useful for physical tank grass-types that Volcarona might have trouble with and I don't want to waste Lucario on.

    I really like QDance. It raises bulk and speed, which are integral to successful sweeping. With the opposing Pokemon T-Waved Volcarona should be able to control the battle with a combination of boosting Sp. Def. and recovering HP. I'm fairly certain that neutral weather is far more common in the Subway than in, say, OU, so Morning Sun should never be a liability.

    Volcarona and Slowbro don't compliment each other per se, but they don't share any weaknesses. They're either neutral or resist the other's weaknesses, which I find is acceptable.

    Lucario fills in all the holes: nothing that hits it for super effective makes it past Slowbro, and likewise anything that hits Bro for the same is resisted by Lucario. Moreover, it's a 4x Stone Edge resistance for Volcarona and can provide for an early sweep if it switches in on a Dark-type move aimed at Slowbro (dance, baby. dance, baby. I hear +3 Atk Extremespeed is pretty good.) It's also a handy resist for Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, Extremespeed, and Quick Attack (Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave being resisted by Slowbro), which means the team has a strength against priority.

    Which is good, because Volcarona dies to almost all of those.

    Another problem Volcarona may befall is Sturdy/Slash. Extremespeed allows Lucario to very easily revenge kill these Pokemon to prevent loss of momentum.

    I'm wondering if Volcarona should carry WoW instead of Bug Buzz. If the point is to +6 all the stats then is coverage even an issue? You should be able to easily brute force through just about anything at that level. Maybe not, though. Maybe not Latias, Reuniclus, or 4x Fire resists. At the same time, having that more reliable burn would make it easier for Lucario to clean up after Volcarona has failed.

    So that's my idea. I've given it a fair amount of thought so far but I feel like I don't want to try it until I've let other more experienced people take a look. Just to make sure I didn't miss anything very important.
  11. Level 51

    Level 51 getting worse at mons day by day
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Dec 16, 2011
    Right, my Super Doubles Streak just died at 158 wins.

    Best Subway Streak for me so far, kinda unfortunate that it died so early.

    The team:
    Nibbles (Hydreigon) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 250 SAtk / 252 Spd / 5 HP (I suck at counting)
    IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
    Level 50 stats: 168/125/99/176/110/165
    Hasty Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf
    - Flamethrower
    - Hyper Voice

    Jellicent @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 250 SAtk / 255 Spd / 5 HP (I suck at counting)
    IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
    Level 50 stats: 176/72/90/136/125/123
    Timid Nature
    - Water Spout
    - Shadow Ball
    - Ice Beam
    - Energy Ball

    Jellicent fires off pseudo-powerful Water Spouts while being healed by Hydreigon's Surf. Otherwise, the two are a pretty good offensive (and defensive, kinda) combo.

    Garchomp @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 Def
    IVs: 18/31/31/2X/24/31
    Level 50 stats: 177/182/116/88/102/169
    Jolly Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Swords Dance

    Scizor @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 10 SpD
    IVs: 30/23/31/2X/16/31
    Level 50 stats: 176/200/116/65/94/85
    Adamant Nature
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch
    - Substitute
    - Swords Dance

    Two pretty solid backups, huh?

    Died to a Veteran, the legendary-using type. They're really scary, and I had a pretty bad misplay. A VERY bad misplay. >.>
    And I was hoping to beat Nickscor too...

    You can see for yourself if you want:
    Loss (Battle 159): 58-25015-38290
  12. NoCheese

    NoCheese It's not just a house...it's a maison!
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Mar 28, 2011
    I think the Slowbro/Volcarona core could be fun (Regenerator is terrificly appealing, and Quiver Dance is such a powerful move), though with Volcarona boosting speed, I wonder if Thunder Wave might not work better as Toxic, especially since Volcarona can (after switching in) also stall a little with Morning Sun. Do note, however, that there's a fair bit of weather in the Subway, so Morning Sun isn't always going to be as reliable as you'd like, and without Substitute, status/hax can and will make setting up fully more difficult than you might think. Still, none of this is an absolute team killer, just stuff to keep in mind.

    Taunt Whimsicott (or any Whimsicott for that matter) doesn't appear in the Subway. For reference, the list is here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4177645&postcount=1578 and is linked to on the first page of this thread. More generally, I tend to lead towards Ice Beam, since it lets you cover Dragon-types and still hits Grass-types super effectively. Yes, Flamethrower lets you roast Steels, but you can already at least hit them neutrally with Scald.

    I advise against WoW on Volcarona for a couple of reasons. First, relying on Firey Dance as your sole attack is bad. As you note, there are several pokes with 4x resists, but worse, you can't touch anything with Flash Fire. Likewise, I don't think you'll be able to set up to +6/+6/+6 as often as you'd hope, so even where your opponents aren't immune, having reasonable coverage becomes much more important when you are stuck with fewer boosts under your belt. Second, the 75% accuracy on WoW will be a big issue for you. On a long streak, you will miss a lot of times with WoW, and against a big physical attacker, such a miss (or the 1/16 chance of two in a row) could easily be fatal.

    Hope this helps, and good luck!
  13. KOTR


    Jul 7, 2011
    Thank you very much for the tips!

    I think I'm going to wait on this until Black 2 comes stateside. Because there Volcarona gets Roost via Tutor, which will be much, much more reliable. In the meantime, I've brainstormed on a couple more strategies, such as using Hitmonlee or Infernape with Fake Out to try and hit my opponent twice before they can move. I'm thinking about this in terms of kinda like a momentum thing. There should be at least a few things I can KO outright, most of anything else should be easily revenge killed, and anything that doesn't care at all about the combo will just die to whatever I partner it with (right now I like either Scarfed Nidoking with Earth Power and Ice Beam for things like Hippowdon and Steelix or something Moxie; preferably Heracross or Salamence).

    I'm sorry if this seems stupid. I don't have a ton of experience in the Sub yet. Can't even win the first battle in the Super Sub because the Pokemon I have now are super cruddy.

    Hopefully I can get this RNG thing to work. Or I won't be able to get any experience at all!
  14. Koke


    Aug 5, 2012
    I've had pretty good results with using Giga Drain over Bug Buzz on bold bulky Volcarona in subway singles. I realize the coverage takes a hit, but many rock, ground, and water pokes are much easier to deal with. I should note though that that streak ended at around 90 to a Calm Mind Musharna that came up 3rd, because I didn't have Bug Buzz and was paralyzed.

    Still Giga Drain is definitely worth consideration, depending on how bulky water-weak your team is. A combination of Roost and Giga Drain also makes it viciously difficult to take down.
  15. KOTR


    Jul 7, 2011
    I don't know about Volcarona, but Lilligant on the other hand. The type coverage is there. Double Quiver Dance looks good.

    Of course all three Pokemon being Special attackers is a problem. But, that said, there are ways to deal with that. Anything like Musharna or Blissey can be worn down with the help of Toxic. Specially defensive, Physical attackers are walled by Slowbro. Again, Toxic.

    On the other hand, though, for a Double Dance team, Chinese Dood's Stoutland would be a much better lead.
  16. PichuGirl


    Aug 14, 2012
    OMG love how number 19 in doubles used a PICHU!!!! xD <333333 ~
  17. yadazhai


    Nov 22, 2008
    Entrainment-Truant Durant has been pretty hyped for the Battle Subway, and now that it's finally available, it is a VERY consistent strategy. Currently, I'm in the middle of a very respectable streak, and I'm getting close to the #1 position in the Pokemon BW Super Singles.

    Edit. I've won 644 battles in a row, still going. Posting a picture and a video when I get a chance.

    The main strategy of this team is to use SEPERIOR to inhibit counters to DURANT who will use ENTRAINMENT to make the enemy's ability TRUANT. Then I switch in DRAGONITE who uses PROTECT every other turn, sets up 6 Dragon Dances and a sub and wins the game. This team has gone through a number of changes mid-streak, with an offensive Cloyster Latios Terrakion team used until around battle 200, and Azelf used instead of the far superior Serperior/Whimiscott

    Edit: Serperior has now been replaced, after some untimely Dragon Tail misses and hax problems with Dragon Tail going last.

    Serperior@Focus Sash
    Jolly(252 hp, 252 spe, 4atk)
    -knock off
    -Dragon Tail
    -Sunny Day

    Serperior's job is to make ABSOLUTELY sure that Durant can use Entrainment on the other pokemon. Focus Sash allows me to survive random Quick Claw BS and Knock Off that sucker's item(gay brightpowders are also removed). Dragon Tail forces stuff with U-turn or Volt Switch out, so they can't switch out of Durant's Entrainment and ruin my fun. I use Dragon Tail because it works even if I get taunted by thundrus, etc. I know the accuracy sucks, but I don't have a choice. Sunny Day is used to counteract Sand Stream and permanant hail, which would otherwise mean my fully set up Dragonite will have 75% health and no multiscale (because of substitute). Taunt prevents Dragon Dance or Agility users from setting up on me, and outspeeding Durant. It also prevents foes from using Protect, which Durant hates.

    Edit: Serperior has now been replaced, after some untimely Dragon Tail misses and hax problems with Dragon Tail going last.

    After some close calls with Dragon Tail (getting frozen/fully paralyzed because of -6 priority and not being able to use it to phaze out dangerous pokemon), Serperior's run is now over. I went back to the drawing board, and came up with Whimiscott. Whimiscott's flaw is that it lacks the ability of Serperior to phaze (meaning Explosion, Baton Pass, Memento, Perish Song is now a much bigger threat), but outperforms Serperior in other ways. Whimiscott's Prankester taunts outspeed even Tornadus/Thundurus's taunts, meaning nothing can set up on me.

    Priority Encore forces the other pokemon to continue the SAME move they had been using during the Taunt. This is vital because if the other pokemon has u-turn or volt switch, they must use it against Whimiscott on the 1st/2nd turn, or else they are never switching out because I can encore their other attacking move, use entrainment, and send in dragonite before the Encore wears off. Then, Dragonite just uses protect every other turn and prevents volt/turn from working. If the other pokemon DOES use volt/turn against Whimiscott, then I get to set up on the second pokemon, who is very unlikely to also have volt/turn. The second way Encore is important is that it extends the duration of my taunt by at least 3 turns, so no more problems with Taunt wearing off the turn that Seperior faints, allowing the other pokemon to use protect.

    I do still sorely miss dragon tail though. I was fighting the CB Archeops with Head Smash, and almost lost. Whimiscott used Taunt and Knock off before getting killed by Head Smash (realized later that I should have used Memento). Durant used Entrainment, negating Archeops's Defeatist. Archeops used Head Smash again, got Durant into the red, and then died to recoil. Luckily, a Gastrodon with Muddy Water came in to finish off my Durant(who is now loafing). I send in Dragonite, and set up on its attacks and win the game. Had I not been so lucky, and an ice type come in instead of Gastrodon, I definitely would have lost.

    Whimiscott@Focus Sash
    Jolly(252hp, 38 def, 220 spe)
    Ability: Prankster
    -Knock Off

    Whimiscott's one and only job is to make sure Durant gets to use Entrainment. It uses Encore to prevent stuff from Volt/Turning away from Durant, Knock off to remove QC and BP hax, and Taunt to prevent stuff from using Protect.

    Jolly + 220 speed outspeeds all Tornadus/Thundurus, letting me Taunt them first. Memento is actually used soley to faint Whimiscott, and not to lower attack. I only use it against flame-charge users, so they cannot grab speed boosts and then KO my durant. Encore + Taunt makes sure everything will use an attacking move on Durant.

    Knock Off removes BrightPowder and Quick Claw so Entrainment is guaranteed to hit first.

    Durant@Choice Scarf
    Jolly(252 hp, 18 spDef, 240 spe)
    Ability: Truant
    -Rock Slide
    -Iron Head

    Durant's one and only job is to use Entrainment. I couldn't care less if it dies in the process.

    240 speed Evs and a Jolly nature outspeeds everything in the Battle Subway. I use entrainment 100% of the time. I don't even know why I bothered to teach my Durant other moves. Never used them once.

    Volt/Turn pokemon are super annoying for my team because they can switch out for free after I use Entrainment on them. However, if they don't use volt/turn immediately after I use entrainment, I can just switch in Dragonite and spam protect to prevent volt switch/u-turn from working and win.

    If I use Entrainment before the enemy attacks, he will loaf around on the next turn, giving me a free switch in to Dragonite.

    Adamant(204hp, 252atk, 24 def, 30 spdef)
    Ability: Multiscale
    -Dragon Dance
    -Dragon Claw

    This is the standard Battle Subway Dragonite, with Protect instead of Roost so I can stall out Traunt turnes. Same Evs as Jumpman's dragonite, with the 4 speed evs moved to defense because Entrainment allows me to get +6 every single time. Multiscale is OP, and Dragonite doesn't take damage while it's active. If something like Skarmory uses Roar, I still win. Durant gets roared in, and gets uses Entrainment again. Dragonite repeats the set-up, except this time, I can protect every time he wants to roar me away.

    Example Battle (aka. exactly what happens 80% of the time)
    Turn 1: Serperior used Taunt, Enemy used _____
    Turn 2: Serpior used Knock Off, Enemy used ______ Serperior fainted
    Turn 3: Send in Durant. Durant used Entrainment, Enemy used ______. Durant survives with a little hp left.
    Turn 4: Send in Dragonite, Enemy is loafing
    Turn 5: Dragonite used Protect, enemy used _____
    Turn _: Dragonite uses Sub/Dragon Dance, Protecting every other turn until fully set up.
    Turn _: Dragonite wins the game.

    What advantages does Entrainment have over the classic Trick-Scarf team?

    1. Can SET UP ON and WIN AGAINST a leading Wonder Guard Spiritomb with a 100% chance to activate it's Quick Claw and has a 100% accurate Sheer Cold. This team is impervious to Quick Claw and OHKO hax.
    2. Battles go MUCH faster because I don't need to stall with Charm/Flash and wait 10 turns before even beginning to set up a sweeper.
    3. No problems with Sticky Hold
    4. Does not depend on evasion / paralysis hax at all.
    5. If sweeper gets Phazed out, can easily set up again.
    6. No problems with opponent's PP running out too quickly to properly set up because I allow them to use any move they want
    7. Entrainment removes the threat of having Dragonite paralyzed/burned by Static or Flame Body on the 1st pokemon after a full set up.
    8. No problems with Fling
    9. No problems with Clear Body
    10. No problems with AI getting tricked onto a non-attacking move and switching out.
  18. Manveru123


    Feb 27, 2012
    Like I said a few pages back, I was recently playing around with something I call Team Yawn. Highest streak I got in BW2 subway was 102 wins. Strangely enough, I haven't lost so far (my BW streak, when I was testing the team, ended when I stopped playing it at exacly 100 wins). The reason I stopped now is because I have other things to play at the moment, so I'm waiting with a proper streak for english version of BW2. So please don't add this result to the OP. I'm posting mostly for reference, and hoping to get some feedback, and perhaps improvements. I'll try to explain everything the best I can.

    So, let's start with my lead.

    Gliscor @Toxic Orb
    Jolly (204 HP, 44 SDef, 252 Spe)
    Poison Heal
    - Aerial Ace
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Swords Dance

    All credit goes to ntrnsc mtvtn - if it wasn't for him I wouldn't even consider a speedy Gliscor. The fact is, this thing is incredible. It has awesome passive hp restoration, which lets me easily PP stall any move I want between Protect and Sub. Jolly nature and max speed EVs help in this, as I outspeed a large portion of the subway. This allows me to set up on a large amount of pokes, including some water types. +6 Aerial Ace dents everything except the toughest Steel types, but I'm hardly afraid of them, as they're setup bait for my second team member, who is...

    Ferrothorn @Leftovers
    Relaxed (252 HP, 88 Def, 168 SDef)
    Iron Barbs
    - Power Whip
    - Protect
    - Leech Seed
    - Curse
    His job is to eliminate tougher water types (pretty much only Poliwrath has a chance of beating him), steels and occasionally (but rarely) an ice type. With Leech Seed and Leftovers his regeneration rivals Gliscor. I was worried about making him a mono attacker at first, but it actually works pretty well.

    The problem I had at this point were some special attackers. If a pokemon can break Gliscor's sub in one hit and can threaten Ferrothorn, I needed something to cover that weakness.

    Chansey @Eviolite
    Bold (252 HP, 252 Def)
    Natural Cure
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss
    - Aromatherapy
    - Softboiled
    Still the same great special wall as always. Pretty much the only special attacker who can threaten him is that Porygon-Z with Hyper Beam (it's 2KO, not sure if he could OHKO with a crit as I haven't ran sims and it never happened), which is not a big deal as Gliscor can PP stall him easily. He closes all the gaps taking care of pokes who are a problem for my other two.

    As you can probably tell, the key to success for this team is strategy. I've been playing subway for so long that I pretty much know what to expect as soon as I see an opponent's pokemon appear. I believe that AI can always be outplayed, and it's an ongoing goal for this team.

    Although I have to admit that I actually lost once. It was to.. Crasher Wake in PWT. I simply underestimated him, but it was a good learning experience.

    So far I haven't seen any pokes who could threaten all 3 of mine at once. Barring occasional hack, I'm able to handle everything quite smoothly. The only big disadvantage of this team is time. It's not called Team Yawn without a reason. Going through 7 trainers can take from 30 minutes to an hour, depending on what I face! And I have to stay focused, because even though I can recover from most mistakes, some could be deadly.

    Anyway, improvements. I think movesets and all are quite fine. What I was thinking about is giving my team more offensive presence. For example, a Magnezone could probably do Ferro's job (beat water, steels and some ice types), but if it eats a random Earthquake, it might get ugly like hell. Next, I was also considering replacing Chansey with a Snorlax, who is also a special wall, but has a considerably higher offensive presence. Here I'm mostly worried about special attackers with Focus Blast - Chansey can shrug them off (even from Alakazam or Gengar), but takes a solid hit, and I'm not sure if Snorlax can. And even if he can, the lack of reliable recovery means he can't really tank those blasts until my opponent runs out of PP.

    Any feedback is much appreciated.
  19. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Aug 15, 2008
    @Manveru123: Snorlax without recovery and leftovers will not get you very far (if you're using a curselax). A Snorlax set that could fit into your team imo is probably something like @Chesto/Lum with Curse / Sub / Normal STAB / Rest, which means PP-stalling for ghosts (or switch to Ferrothorn) and possibly some steels or rock or steel/rock. Having both Ferrothorn and Snorlax weak to fighting might not be an extremely good idea though.

    It seems to me that steel types will make your battles very long since you have nothing to hit them hard with, but most of them don't have recovery so it's ok I think. There's the Calm Mind Chesto-Rest Cobalion that might be tough, but you can probably play around that with Gliscor since Gliscor is faster.

    VGC season is finally over for now, so I recently got back to playing a bit of Subway. I tried a bit more Stoutland crippling, but I decided to want to try out something faster.

    This is the current team I am using... not very high streak for now (77), but at least battles are decently fast (a set of 7 usually takes 25 mins or less). Some battles are won simply with 3 or 4 EQs.

    Landorus / Sand Power / Jolly @ Choice Band
    - Rockslide / Earthquake / Explosion / U-Turn

    Suicune / Pressure / Bold @ Leftovers
    - Calm Mind / Scald / Rest / Substitute

    Scizor / Technician / Adamant @ Lum Berry
    - Swords Dance / Bullet Punch / Superpower / X-Scissor

    Yes, obviously Scizor is better off with Bug Bite. Originally this Scizor had sub in the last slot for cripple-setup teams, but since I don't have a crippler in this team, I found it rare that Scizor will be able to have a sub up, given that its defenses aren't that spectacular. Like, switching in on a crit Froslass Blizzard means Scizor is taking 60%+ damage already (Suicune sets up on Froslass easier anyway). It was already transferred to 5th Gen (and I don't have access to BW2 tutors), so X-Scissor was the best I got. It lets Scizor beat a lot of things with STAB bug instead of having to resort to Superpower when going against steel resists.

    Defensive synergy here should be apparent. Suicune covers Landorus's ice and water weakness. Landorus covers Suicune's electric weakness and Scizor covers the grass weakness. Suicune covers Scizor's fire weakness (while Landorus offensively covers fire types with EQ).

    I didn't see any choice band Landorus... OK, actually I just checked back at the record and see pifou69 had CB Landorus, but his didn't have Explosion. Anyway, CB Landorus is pretty good. I actually didn't use Explosion that much, but it's a good option to have when it's needed. Yeah, there's the explosion nerf, but CB Explosion still OHKO'd everything I needed to KO so far, and the things is, vs Rock and Steel types that resist Explosion, I'm obviously just using Earthquake, so Explosion is just for neutral targets. U-Turn and Earthquake are the two most used moves... for (hopefully) obvious reasons. U-Turn does plenty of damage vs neutral targets too, allowing Scizor to finish off things it otherwise wouldn't with (+2) Bullet Punch. Rockslide is easily the least used move. I use it on moltres and Yanmega. I used it once on Drifblim because I felt like it (it was early on the streak), but Scizor or Suicune can usually set up. Whenever I can set up, I usually do of course. I probably wouldn't even risk using Rock Slide on Articuno since Scizor/Suicune can set up.

    I am actually contemplating on replacing Rockslide with Aerial Ace, just because Verizion/Heracross would be so much easier to deal with. If only Landorus learned a better physical flying move... Hm, lol, I suppose I can try Fly ... even though I suspect it's not an amazing idea.
    EDIT: Lol, I just realized, Landorus doesn't even learn Aerial Ace.

    Scizor and Suicune are pretty obvious. I could potentially try Scizor @ Sitrus and get the sub back on, but I think it's probably better this way. Lum is a good item. I can set up without fearing status at least for one turn.

    I'm not expecting a super high streak with this, but it'll be nice to see how far I get. I think it's a fairly solid team, not without weak points, but it'll do.
  20. Manveru123


    Feb 27, 2012
    Chesto rest Cobalion is a special attacker with HP/SpD EVs, so Chansey can wall it and kill with Seismic Toss. Focus Blast is only 5 PP and he won't have time to accumulate enough CM boosts for Flash Cannon to hurt. Also he's half fighting, so doesn't resist Aerial Ace. Steels are only a bother if they resist grass, as I have to fully set up with Ferro then to kill between seed and power whip.

    If I was to use Snorlax I'd definetly give him Lefties, and swap Ferro with a Magnezone with Shuca Berry (something along the lines of Sub, tbolt, hp fire, flash cannon prolly).
  21. Chinese Dood

    Chinese Dood

    Aug 15, 2008
    Yeah, I know Chansey can beat Cobalion no problem. I was more concerned about using Snorlax replacing Chansey. Actually, my whole comment was concerning Snorlax replacing Chansey.
  22. Manveru123


    Feb 27, 2012
    Ah yes I get it now. In that situation yes I agree. This is mainly why I'm using Chansey, Focus Blasts are pretty damn scary otherwise with two pokes weak to fighting and one with poor special defenses. Thanks for the input.

    EDIT: So I ran some calcs and discovered something interesting. Specs Timid Alakazam (there's one in the subway) vs Careful Snorlax with max HP/SpD.
    Initial hit: 53.9% - 63.7%
    After Amnesia: 27% - 32.2%
    So even in worst case scenario I would survive, get amnesia up, chesto rest on second turn and ko on third with Crunch (was thinking about Crunch/Body Slam/Amnesia/Rest, since I kinda need a proper special wall).
    Obviously a crit would f**k me up sideways, but how unlucky could I possibly get, right..? :P
  23. yadazhai


    Nov 22, 2008
    ok. Here is a picture and video to confirm my ongoing streak and that I've officially surpassed Jumpman in the Battle Subway :)

    The video ID is 58-31728-04072. There's nothing too special about this battle except how similar it is to 80% of my other battles. This is battle number 655.

    Here is a picture taken with my crappy camera

    Here is a link to the team and some notes(a few posts up)

    Also, Jumpman, how did you deal with these two pokemon if you had a Careful Whimiscott? They outspeed your Whimiscott, so they can Taunt you. They can also taunt mespirit and thundrus can paralyze dragonite with discharge.

    982 | Thundurus | Timid | Magnet | Discharge | Focus Blast | Volt Switch | Taunt | Spd/SpA
    981 | Tornadus | Timid | Damp Rock | Hurricane | Focus Blast | Taunt | Rain Dance | Spd/SpA
  24. Carl

    Carl or Varl
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Dec 23, 2004
    Congrats on your streak. DW Durant really does make Subway Singles ridiculous. I'm kind of at the point of "why bother" now with my more traditional style team. Oh well, guess I can still try to pass Peterko for title of best "non-crippling, non Durant" team or something, lol. also, man, you have like no BP was this streak all on the first try?

    Also, the Prankster Taunt thing was addressed like 5 pages back but basically Torn and Thund prefer to attack instead of using Taunt on Whimsicott so they're not as big a threat against it.
  25. Xolah


    Aug 19, 2012
    Is it possible to do the subways, not having choice band and etc, along with only have the pokemon and hms/tms from pokemon white? I'm trying to get to super singles, but I keep losing at regular singles.

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