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Burning Qurans?
- Thread starter Aqueos
- Start date
I realize that this is a large quantity of Qurans, and that it is a very powerful symbol, but my claim still stands. It's best to ignore such people as this. There is no reason to take it seriously, however offensive it may be.
I agree some sort of limit should be placed to prevent this kind of obviously immoral act, but freedom of speech is a powerful thing, and would be an extreme legal issue.
I agree some sort of limit should be placed to prevent this kind of obviously immoral act, but freedom of speech is a powerful thing, and would be an extreme legal issue.
This is completely and utterly wrong, it is an insane thing to do. Muslims go under the very wrong misconception that they are terrorists, they are not!
Yet some idiots think so, what are people going to do? The real terrorists will create an uproar, and possibly another 9/11 mishap. I would be pretty pissed, terrorists will get more pissed. That 'priest' is asking for trouble
NOTE: I did qoute priest there because he isnt a true one
Americans created their own trouble
Yet some idiots think so, what are people going to do? The real terrorists will create an uproar, and possibly another 9/11 mishap. I would be pretty pissed, terrorists will get more pissed. That 'priest' is asking for trouble
NOTE: I did qoute priest there because he isnt a true one
Americans created their own trouble
The pastor in this case is nuts, although in fairness this isn't going to drive the same people who go apeshit over cartoons any more over the deep end. They've already arrived at "America is the Great Satan Township" and they aren't going to leave it until all the kuffar are slaughtered.
Put that pastor in Fred Phelps territory for seriousness (apparently they are superbuddies). Did everyone in the Middle East get pissed off when that wacko leftist assaulted a Muslim cab driver who opposed the Ground Zero "Community Center?" Yeah, didn't think so.
Point being that using the random acts of one nutcase is usually just cover for a pre-existing agenda. Now all official Al-Queda brand propaganda is going to feature pastor disaster's Quran burning party instead of the "Bomb Turban Mohammed" cartoon.
As for the "Community Center," Imam Rauf is a shady character who has stated that America has more Muslim blood on it's hands than al-Queda has non-Muslim blood, among other things (in the same statements he references Michael Moore's fantasy screenplay, Farenheight 911). It's not even clear if he has the right to build there, and his land manager is being equally evasive. Furthermore we all know that this new "Community Center" phrasology is nothing more than a huge walkback from what he initially wanted to do. Look over articles and it seems to shift from "Mosque" to "Islamic Center" to "Community Center" as time progresses. It's the same in the shift from "Cordoba Initiative (a symbol of Muslim conquest over Chrsitian Europe)" to the friendly-faced "Park51."
Also try reading some of the statements and letters Rauf has made in Arabic and compare it to his English statements. He's a regular Arafat at that game. Al-Queda is going to report the "Community Center" as just another in a series of victories against The Great Satan, proving that Islam is still dominant over the infidel and has even built over the graves of their dead. You can't really control what they're going to do, so hopefully his project goes through as advertised. Either way Al-Queda and the nutcase Islamists of the world are going to spin it as either a win for Islam or a continuing affront to Islam on the part of the Great Satan.
The idiotic Phelpsian pastor isn't helping on either of those counts. If he really wanted to oppose the Ground Zero mosque, truth is a better disinfectant. And yes, the site is "Ground Zero." The building sustained damage on 9/11 from a landing gear crashing through the roof. Two city blocks is a laughable distance when the collision occurs 80 stories up. No matter how you put it this is going to be a symbol for somebody, even if it shouldn't have been.
Put that pastor in Fred Phelps territory for seriousness (apparently they are superbuddies). Did everyone in the Middle East get pissed off when that wacko leftist assaulted a Muslim cab driver who opposed the Ground Zero "Community Center?" Yeah, didn't think so.
Point being that using the random acts of one nutcase is usually just cover for a pre-existing agenda. Now all official Al-Queda brand propaganda is going to feature pastor disaster's Quran burning party instead of the "Bomb Turban Mohammed" cartoon.
As for the "Community Center," Imam Rauf is a shady character who has stated that America has more Muslim blood on it's hands than al-Queda has non-Muslim blood, among other things (in the same statements he references Michael Moore's fantasy screenplay, Farenheight 911). It's not even clear if he has the right to build there, and his land manager is being equally evasive. Furthermore we all know that this new "Community Center" phrasology is nothing more than a huge walkback from what he initially wanted to do. Look over articles and it seems to shift from "Mosque" to "Islamic Center" to "Community Center" as time progresses. It's the same in the shift from "Cordoba Initiative (a symbol of Muslim conquest over Chrsitian Europe)" to the friendly-faced "Park51."
Also try reading some of the statements and letters Rauf has made in Arabic and compare it to his English statements. He's a regular Arafat at that game. Al-Queda is going to report the "Community Center" as just another in a series of victories against The Great Satan, proving that Islam is still dominant over the infidel and has even built over the graves of their dead. You can't really control what they're going to do, so hopefully his project goes through as advertised. Either way Al-Queda and the nutcase Islamists of the world are going to spin it as either a win for Islam or a continuing affront to Islam on the part of the Great Satan.
The idiotic Phelpsian pastor isn't helping on either of those counts. If he really wanted to oppose the Ground Zero mosque, truth is a better disinfectant. And yes, the site is "Ground Zero." The building sustained damage on 9/11 from a landing gear crashing through the roof. Two city blocks is a laughable distance when the collision occurs 80 stories up. No matter how you put it this is going to be a symbol for somebody, even if it shouldn't have been.
As the south park "cartoon wars" episodes points out, either it's ALL okay to make fun of or none of it is. Once you open the can of words where you moderate free speech, you can fast end up with a runaway effect.
Why the fuck is a ground zero mosque even a problem? It shouldn't be on principle, though people are easily trolled in real life and this is actually a fine example of it.
I honestly wish that America wouldn't be so fucking biased and would just burn a giant pile of holy books, hitting all denominations. Hell, you can even burn an atheist version...oh wait. Well, chuck in some Stephen Jay Gould or Dawkins for good measure. All religion is equally unacceptable in the eyes of science. Mind you, science doesn't threaten to bomb people based on "the right thing to do".
TLDR religion once again raises an unnecessary stir, even though I'm against book burning (well, okay, I'd burn a bad book but not to demonstrate)
Er, you realize you live in a country with moderated free speech as Vincent proposed right?
No, it's not "Ground Zero" even if your statement about the landing gear was true. If I dropped a bomb onto a building, the neighboring building a block away that was hit by a pebble from that explosion isn't a part of "Ground Zero".
Jesus
This is true, however I still don't think 'burning the quran' or promoting 'hate speech' constitutes violating the First Amendment. Despite how much anyone may get upset by it, fundamentally people should be able to speak their minds and express themselves as much as possible. If we limit speech because it can offend someone, soon enough we won't be able to say anything at all since there is always SOMETHING that SOMEONE can be offended by.
Limits to free speech are things such as yelling "FIRE!" in a dark theater or inciting violence "Let's kill all of the Jews!". Burning a Quran? Very much protected by free speech, even if some people will go batshit crazy that is their problem. In this country Christians are expected to not react violently when people mock their religion and when Christians do react violently they are held accountable for their actions. The same goes for Muslims in this country. That is a fundamental and very important part of having free speech. You have the right to be offended, not the right to not be offended.
What does Qu'ran burning have to do with free speech? Nothing need be said. I don't see what the relation is.
I'm with Obama's stance on this one, the same one he adopted towards building the mosque. I don't think it's wise, but I don't think it's wrong either. What people do on private property is none of anyone else's business as long as no laws are broken - and as has been emphasized in the news, no laws are being broken in this case. For the group being provoked (i.e. the Muslims), nobody has been hurt and all that has happened is a pile of paper reduced to ash. So what ... it's just paper. It may be holy paper but it's still paper. This planned bonfire is a peaceful protest of which we've had before, e.g. people burning country flags or bras or whatever. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me - much less a bonfire many kilometres away from wherever I live.
Now if the people behind this bonfire start breaking the law, then - and only then - should the government say they've gone too far and step in. Until then, the actions are lawful and legal and there's no grounds to intervene.
However, like Obama, I don't feel it's wise. Provocation in general is not wise, and burning Qu'rans is hardly going to make the targetted Muslim extremists any less extreme. Still, it's like watching a friend quit driving because (s)he got involved in an accident, or watching two friends stop talking to each other because of a perceived slight. It's not wise, it's counterproductive, but there's nothing wrong.
I'm with Obama's stance on this one, the same one he adopted towards building the mosque. I don't think it's wise, but I don't think it's wrong either. What people do on private property is none of anyone else's business as long as no laws are broken - and as has been emphasized in the news, no laws are being broken in this case. For the group being provoked (i.e. the Muslims), nobody has been hurt and all that has happened is a pile of paper reduced to ash. So what ... it's just paper. It may be holy paper but it's still paper. This planned bonfire is a peaceful protest of which we've had before, e.g. people burning country flags or bras or whatever. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me - much less a bonfire many kilometres away from wherever I live.
Now if the people behind this bonfire start breaking the law, then - and only then - should the government say they've gone too far and step in. Until then, the actions are lawful and legal and there's no grounds to intervene.
However, like Obama, I don't feel it's wise. Provocation in general is not wise, and burning Qu'rans is hardly going to make the targetted Muslim extremists any less extreme. Still, it's like watching a friend quit driving because (s)he got involved in an accident, or watching two friends stop talking to each other because of a perceived slight. It's not wise, it's counterproductive, but there's nothing wrong.
I fail to see how burning the Quran is in any way less hatred inciting than saying "Let's kill all of the Jews!".
who are burning Quran?
I didn't really want to post in this topic because its pretty much a clusterfuck already but i want to know because of Infernape-blind.
Basically this is how it goes:
Pastor/Preist/whatever is dumb for advocating this and it makes him look like a douchebag. I'm pretty sure it is legal though, since burning the flag is legal as well but idunno there might be some religion clause.
well in Quran God has written that till the End God will protect it.
i have heard many news recently people trying to alter it or were destroying it
those people who did had terrible deaths
i have heard many news recently people trying to alter it or were destroying it
those people who did had terrible deaths
Well I'm sorry you can't see the difference. To me the difference between saying "Let's kill all of the Muslims!" and simply burning the Quran is quite obvious.
Burning the Quran obviously can incite some strong emotion, but it doesn't dictate a specific violent action like stating "Let's kill/rape/attack all of the Muslims!" would. All it does is upset Muslims, any meaning interpreted from that isn't concrete in the least bit.
Nope, no such thing as a "religious clause" other than the SoCaS.
Not all free speech in this country is protected, and this might run into problems if the local law enforcement foresee problems arising from this public display of intolerance. If people are going to riot in the streets, this little media show can be stopped lickety-split.
And DK, try not to bring other things into this. This isn't a Democrat-Republican issue, this is an America-world issue. I don't care if it's a Baptist, Lutheran, Irish Catholic, Muslim, Atheist, or Jehovah's Witness, pulling off something like this for the whole world to see will only inevitably hurt this country in possibly irreparable ways.
And DK, try not to bring other things into this. This isn't a Democrat-Republican issue, this is an America-world issue. I don't care if it's a Baptist, Lutheran, Irish Catholic, Muslim, Atheist, or Jehovah's Witness, pulling off something like this for the whole world to see will only inevitably hurt this country in possibly irreparable ways.
Freedom of expression my Furret's rear end. In terms of Islam this is pretty much the ultimate slap in the face. If I were still a practising Muslim I'd be preaching death and shit; it's that serious.
oh come on
Is burning the quran hurting anyone directly? No.
If someone gets offended it's the problem of the offendee, not the offender. The problem lies in the idolisation of a book with some fucking words in it, and muslims thinking that it's justifiable to go batshit endangering people's lives in the name of it. That shit should not be tolerated in the Western world. If I called your mum a whore it's still illegal for you to kick my ass.
I fully agree with DM: either it's all good or none of it is. Free speech is either absolute or non-existent. The line I draw is when an act causes direct harm to someone, so punching someone in the face is acceptable but telling them they're a jerk is. Yes, there's the risk people will abuse this and incite people to go crazy, but it's preferable to the slippery slope of further restricting freedom of speech, not least because you know, you can eventually get people to stop getting so butthurt.
Is burning the quran hurting anyone directly? No.
If someone gets offended it's the problem of the offendee, not the offender. The problem lies in the idolisation of a book with some fucking words in it, and muslims thinking that it's justifiable to go batshit endangering people's lives in the name of it. That shit should not be tolerated in the Western world. If I called your mum a whore it's still illegal for you to kick my ass.
I fully agree with DM: either it's all good or none of it is. Free speech is either absolute or non-existent. The line I draw is when an act causes direct harm to someone, so punching someone in the face is acceptable but telling them they're a jerk is. Yes, there's the risk people will abuse this and incite people to go crazy, but it's preferable to the slippery slope of further restricting freedom of speech, not least because you know, you can eventually get people to stop getting so butthurt.
I have no problem with either. That's not to say that I condone killing Jews, but you should be allowed to say anything without restriction, else "free speech" becomes "free speech except for the things that you aren't allowed to say, even if they are stupid/inflammatory/misguided".
That's what the American definition of "free" is: able to do anything that isn't against the law; i.e.
-"Welcome to America, land of the Free! Now, here's a list of things you can do that put you in prison for up to your life!"
-"I can't kill someone, okay...wait...I can go to prison for three years for keying a car? I can't smoke pot in the privacy of my own home? I can't catch a king salmon without buying a thirty dollar stamp? Some freedom."
-"Welcome to America, land of the Free! Now, here's a list of things you can do that put you in prison for up to your life!"
-"I can't kill someone, okay...wait...I can go to prison for three years for keying a car? I can't smoke pot in the privacy of my own home? I can't catch a king salmon without buying a thirty dollar stamp? Some freedom."
I once heard that the boogie man existed and killed 5 people!!!
Care to show proof that those urban legends are true? Also killing the people that burn it doesn't protect it, you know, because the person dies AFTER burning it.
As I said, it's this idolisation of a book that's the problem. We could say that it's insensitive to ignore their culture by dismissing the importance the book has to them and burning the quran, but if it's against the law and free speech, then you have to then choose one or the other.
Even children are taught to turn the other cheek.
And that is just pathetic, blame your religion and teachings all you want. You shouldn't apply your beliefs to everyone else. Non-muslims don't think of the Quran as sacred, face it. Apply crazy extremist rules like death pretty much is only going to further ostracize you from the west, where we value freedom of expression and belief. If by your own rules inspiring fear and violence to get people to conform with your beliefs or to not insult your beliefs is just fine, I wonder what all of the hubbub over the West killing Muslims is.
If the Middle Eastern world can't abide by this and learn some tolerance and to grow thicker skin, frankly than that culture has to die.
Every society has to have some rules and restrictions in order to survive and prosper, we're not anarchists and we're not ashamed to acknowledge that.
However we believe in as little restrictions as possible and protecting what we view as inherent human rights. particularly rights that favor the individual. I won't deny we aren't perfect, neither is any society but at least we are certainly trying.
I think authorities will most likely step in and stop the show before it ever happens. I'm sure higher ups are well aware of the damage this could cause to the US.
If it does happen..no burning the Qur'ans won't hurt anyone directly but it'll just give morons in the middle east a GREAT propoganda tool. Can you think of a better way to create hatred against an entire nation than to show its citizens burning a book a billion people consider holy? We can mock/laugh religious people all we'd like, but let's be honest here. These people live by the very words found in these books, and many base their entire lives on its writing. It doesn't take an idiot to realize the kind of negative PR this will be for the US.
Add that to people drawing and insulting a person they consider the prophet, Ramadan coming to an end and another holiday arriving for Muslims, 9/11 is here, which means morons all across the US spout nothing but hatred toward Muslims, the bullshit over the building of the Mosque in NYC, and I can see why people would get pretty fucking pissed about this. I think both Muslims and Jews have went through enough shit in the first 10 years of the 21st century so I can understand why noone's going to be happy about this.
For the record an I'm atheist but was raised by and still live with my Muslim family. They, as well as the rest of the community are pretty pissed about this entire situation.
If it does happen..no burning the Qur'ans won't hurt anyone directly but it'll just give morons in the middle east a GREAT propoganda tool. Can you think of a better way to create hatred against an entire nation than to show its citizens burning a book a billion people consider holy? We can mock/laugh religious people all we'd like, but let's be honest here. These people live by the very words found in these books, and many base their entire lives on its writing. It doesn't take an idiot to realize the kind of negative PR this will be for the US.
Add that to people drawing and insulting a person they consider the prophet, Ramadan coming to an end and another holiday arriving for Muslims, 9/11 is here, which means morons all across the US spout nothing but hatred toward Muslims, the bullshit over the building of the Mosque in NYC, and I can see why people would get pretty fucking pissed about this. I think both Muslims and Jews have went through enough shit in the first 10 years of the 21st century so I can understand why noone's going to be happy about this.
For the record an I'm atheist but was raised by and still live with my Muslim family. They, as well as the rest of the community are pretty pissed about this entire situation.
Some of you seem to be under the impression that the Quran is just another 'holy' book. It....probably is, but all Muslims think of the book to be, word by word, comma by comma, the (final) word of God.
Everything and I mean everything in Islam hinges on the Quran (I understand this issue is debatable, but this is my personal belief, as whenever an apparently valid contradiction in the hadith is brought up, Muslims are quick to go "but it's not in the Quran!!!"...ah I am ranting now sorry). By burning a Quran you're basically saying "I have Islam right here in my hand oops it's on fire now there goes your religion hah". idk guys, religious tolerance notwithstanding I'd be pretty pissed.
Everything and I mean everything in Islam hinges on the Quran (I understand this issue is debatable, but this is my personal belief, as whenever an apparently valid contradiction in the hadith is brought up, Muslims are quick to go "but it's not in the Quran!!!"...ah I am ranting now sorry). By burning a Quran you're basically saying "I have Islam right here in my hand oops it's on fire now there goes your religion hah". idk guys, religious tolerance notwithstanding I'd be pretty pissed.
Note how I said preaching death and not actually, you know, killing people. I could argue that as cookie said freedom of speech should go both ways and I should be allowed to issue death threats, but instead I say fuck it, there are some things we should just keep to ourselves.
Of course, you are all missing the point of this - Fascism is on the march, and it seems society is willing to ignore the crunch of the jackboots on the ground until they are crushing its throat.
Does this guy have the right to free speech? Of course, I defend his right to burn as many Korans as he sees fit. But you ignore the context of which this is taking place in - we are living in a world where 61% of the populace, and a majority of the so-called "progressive and secular" political party believe that a building pertaining to a certain religion should not be built on private property, solely because it is associated with a certain religion.
I'm going to highlight this so you understand the extreme danger we as a society are in.
61% of the population opposes religious expression when it is performed by a particular religion.
When "nations" and the people that claim to be a part of said "nation" feel threatened, vulnerable, and insecure, inevitably, instead of looking within to constructively figure out the causes of the problems, they look without, and usually at people who don't look, talk, or act like them. Hence, the "border security" movement that is thinly disguised hatred of Mexicans who do low-level jobs both more effectively and more cheaply, exemplified by Jan Brewer's rants about bodies in the Arizona deserts, and the idiotic fears about "cheap Chinese goods destroying American jobs" despite said goods have raised the standards of living for everyone (but the upper/ruling classes) by making goods less expensive, and now, the irrational hatred of Muslims that has been intensifying after September 11, culimating in the wish to deny constitutional rights to them.
Now, one can claim that it is solely due to Cordoba House's proximity to the ruins of the World Trade Center...but why is this relevant in the first place? Because this is a narrative that presents the 9/11 attacks not as an attack by a terrorist organization on American civilians, but as an attack by Islam against Christian America. Deck Knight's reference to the name "Cordoba" being a symbol of conquest over Christian Europe is particularly instructive, as it is the mindset that evokes Islam as a faith being at war with Christendom, except this the 21st century, not the 11th.
Same thing as Germany being under attack by Jews, Marxists being under attack by Capitalists, whites being under attack by blacks, Catholics being under attack by Protestants, Puritans being under attack by eccentric women, etc, etc.
We've seen this before, and we've seen these societal forces before. The people in a country are weak and vulnerable, or feel that way, and they wish to "purify" the nation in some way. We're seeing the signs of this on the horizon - more wars, discussions of trade wars and protectionism (protip: trade wars almost ALWAYS become real wars), hatred of cheaper (foreign) workers, and so forth.
And all the while, the national security apparatus keeps getting bigger and more powerful, without an end in sight.
The intellectual and emotional groundwork is being laid (that is, still being laid - it's been in the works since the beginning of this century) for a state where it is okay to persecute certain unfavored groups, whether by denying them religious expression, trade opportunities, or even freedom, because the rulers have deemed them threats to society, and the people are duped into believing it. This mosque thing is only the beginning.
Do I sound like I'm exaggerating? Maybe so. But again, we've seen this movie before. This looks like every other nationalistic uprising in history, and nationalistic uprisings have a tendency of ending really badly.
Does this guy have the right to free speech? Of course, I defend his right to burn as many Korans as he sees fit. But you ignore the context of which this is taking place in - we are living in a world where 61% of the populace, and a majority of the so-called "progressive and secular" political party believe that a building pertaining to a certain religion should not be built on private property, solely because it is associated with a certain religion.
I'm going to highlight this so you understand the extreme danger we as a society are in.
61% of the population opposes religious expression when it is performed by a particular religion.
When "nations" and the people that claim to be a part of said "nation" feel threatened, vulnerable, and insecure, inevitably, instead of looking within to constructively figure out the causes of the problems, they look without, and usually at people who don't look, talk, or act like them. Hence, the "border security" movement that is thinly disguised hatred of Mexicans who do low-level jobs both more effectively and more cheaply, exemplified by Jan Brewer's rants about bodies in the Arizona deserts, and the idiotic fears about "cheap Chinese goods destroying American jobs" despite said goods have raised the standards of living for everyone (but the upper/ruling classes) by making goods less expensive, and now, the irrational hatred of Muslims that has been intensifying after September 11, culimating in the wish to deny constitutional rights to them.
Now, one can claim that it is solely due to Cordoba House's proximity to the ruins of the World Trade Center...but why is this relevant in the first place? Because this is a narrative that presents the 9/11 attacks not as an attack by a terrorist organization on American civilians, but as an attack by Islam against Christian America. Deck Knight's reference to the name "Cordoba" being a symbol of conquest over Christian Europe is particularly instructive, as it is the mindset that evokes Islam as a faith being at war with Christendom, except this the 21st century, not the 11th.
Same thing as Germany being under attack by Jews, Marxists being under attack by Capitalists, whites being under attack by blacks, Catholics being under attack by Protestants, Puritans being under attack by eccentric women, etc, etc.
We've seen this before, and we've seen these societal forces before. The people in a country are weak and vulnerable, or feel that way, and they wish to "purify" the nation in some way. We're seeing the signs of this on the horizon - more wars, discussions of trade wars and protectionism (protip: trade wars almost ALWAYS become real wars), hatred of cheaper (foreign) workers, and so forth.
And all the while, the national security apparatus keeps getting bigger and more powerful, without an end in sight.
The intellectual and emotional groundwork is being laid (that is, still being laid - it's been in the works since the beginning of this century) for a state where it is okay to persecute certain unfavored groups, whether by denying them religious expression, trade opportunities, or even freedom, because the rulers have deemed them threats to society, and the people are duped into believing it. This mosque thing is only the beginning.
Do I sound like I'm exaggerating? Maybe so. But again, we've seen this movie before. This looks like every other nationalistic uprising in history, and nationalistic uprisings have a tendency of ending really badly.
If you knew the slightest thing about American foreign policy (as opposed to what our "rulers" and our state punditocracy tells you), then you'd know this is not only a truth, it is an understatement.Deck Knight said: