BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[GoliathGarchomp]

Shadow Tag Chandelure will be good and probably one of the best pokemon at it's roles but it wont be as metagame defining as everyone thinks. It's weakness to Stealth Rock as well as Pursuit will really cripple it. I can definly see what Jimbon is saying in terms of it being used as a really good offensive parter for certaiun threats.

Honestly im more interested in Genesect which get's released in like a day and an hour from now (where I live anyway).

 

[chimpact]

Chandelure will easily change the metagame. it allows for easy KO's, so your other offensive pokemon can run rampant. And the pursuit weakness is not as devastating as it seems. Only a few pokemon can come in on Chandelure, take a hit (or outspeed) and pursuit it: Snorlax, Tyranitar, [Scarf] Krookodile, spiritomb (has to rely on sucker punch/pursuit mindgames). You will essentially be running certain pokemon and specific spreads so that chandelure doesn't revenge kill multiple pokemon, unless you run shed shell on multiple pokemon.

Chandelure makes it so that certain pokemon combinations will be nonviable. A popular core of Slowbro/Amoongus/heatran will be shot down by this particular pokemon. Chandelure does not have to be scarfed to be successful, especially if it has teammates for the faster pokemon on the opponent's team.

Shed shell is not even a reliable answer to chandelure because it has base 145 base SpA. You forgo leftovers so that your pokemon isn't one-shotted. Although Ghost/Fire STAB isn't the best coverage in the game and there are many pokemon that are capable of taking those hits. If you don't have a pursuit user or a pokemon with decent spdef, it's still going to put a dent into the opposing team.

I'm not saying Chandelure will be banned, I'm just saying it will definitely cause a big change in the usage statistics.

 

[Tobes]

@R7Rules I can pretty much guarantee Soul Dew is never coming down, and it certainly isn't legal now.

Now, based on my experience, Chandelure will mostly be a Choice Scarf user. SubCm, SunnyBeamer, and other versions will exist, but Chandelure is very slow in an offensive metagame. People will be drawn to its revenge-killing capabilities, and Scarf is undoubtedly the best Chandelure can be as a general revenge-killer. Without Choice Scarf, you can't outspeed Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Latios, etc. Being slow in the current metagame without bulk can be asking for serious trouble, and SubCM can be a liability against offensive teams, depending on what they run.

There's also this misconception that Chandelure is the bane of stall, but it's really more of a slightly restraining force. A stall team that loses a wall to Chandelure a few times will probably slap a Shed Shell on Blissey, Slowbro, Amoonguss, and whatnot, rather than lose to any Chandelure. This is part of the reason SubCM isn't common in Dream World; a metagame adapted to SubCM Chandelure almost makes it obsolete. Now, there is the issue of walls losing Leftovers recovery. For an archetype based on defense and passive damage, not having an extra 1/16th of health a turn to work with can mean a lot. There is no inherent right to be able to use Leftovers and be metagame viable, of course, but it is still something to consider. We'll just have to wait and see how stall fares.

In the end though, the current discussion is mostly theorymon. Chandelure is still unreleased and we do not know when, or if, it will be released. Let's try to shift back to more relevant metagame discussion. Rain has been getting a lot of hype, but how do you guys feel about sand and sun, or even hail? How about weatherless? For what reasons are you guys including weather starters on your teams? To counter other weather? To enhance Pokemon X or make it usable? As an overall aid to your strategy?

 

[ginganinja]

Been using Rain quite a fair bit, mainly cos I want weather to check other weather, but don't want the residual damage of sand affecting the stuff I am trying to test. There is also the fact that most of the new shit, actually works on rain, leading to an increase in rain as people try the new stuff out.

As far as other weathers go, I have sun a try, and it still works fine. I just important in my BW 1 Sun team, made no changes at all, and pretty much won every game I didn't get haxed in. I also gave hail a go, and it was not terrabad, but it was harder to use successfully, although Kyurem is still pretty nice. Didn't use Sand since (imo), it didn't get much new, and it has to deal with Keldeo and Breloom which makes it trickier to use. I do have a couple of sand teams in draft stage, so I expect that I will be using it soon, I t just doesn't really draw my attention at the moment.

 

[Shovel]

To be honest, Hail is and forever will be my favourite weather. It's rather awful; it doesn't go up against other weather teams all too well. However, Abomasnow is the best Subseeder when in Hail, and still packs a punch with Blizzard, so it's very viable with rain running around.

However, all weather is able to counter rain, simply by sending in their own weather inducer, sun obviously being the most threatening, with sand and hail not far behind. To attempt to remedy this, I usually choose ScarfKyurem to hit fast and hard, as well as an offensively bulky Heatran to help take on Sun teams a little better.

Though the new metagame brought little for it, Hail is still strong, and when used properly is quite viable. This applies especially if your team isn't dependent on Hail, or dedicated to Hail stall (which, in fact, most teams should have two or three at most Hail abusers, the rest for support, even if that support is to punch things). I personally run it just for the fact of annoyance, and that it actually works when you aren't forced to rely on it.

 

[Tressed]

Sand is still good, although it didn't get much. Tyranitar is still Tyranitar, and that's all it'll ever need to be. I find that CBTar is being used a lot less now, and its really abusable because of that. There are so few Pokemon that can actually take its attacks with a Choice Band, but people are so used to Mixed or Specially Defensive Tar that they get surprised when Politoed gets 2/3rds of its health ripped off. Sandslash is really good now that it gets Sand Rush. I'm really fond of the Swords Dance set with EdgeQuake and Rapid Spin because it does exactly what it needs to do; it spins and it cleans up lategame. Sand might not have gotten much new stuff, but the old stuff still works just fine.

 

[ShiryuExcalibur]

don`t know the calculations but dugtrio+chandelure seems to be a nice combo on Sun Teams to control the weather, dugtrio catches off Tyranitar and Chandelure has Energy Ball to hit Politoed, maybe it can work better than Wobbufett+Dugtrio combo under sun. The main problem with Sun teams(despite the fact i really like sun teams and had successfull sun teams) will still be that you already have to use Ninetales+Dugtrio+Chandelure+A Spinner(not so neccessary to keep Ninetales alive as with Dug+Chanddy the weather wars maybe easier, but still some of the most common Sun abusers lik Volcarona will be really affected).

 

[Antihaxxer]

With ShadowTag Goth + Genesect ... Which Pokemon / DW ability have not been released ? Shadow Tag Chandelure ?

 

[NoUserName]

With ShadowTag Goth + Genesect ... Which Pokemon / DW ability have not been released ? Shadow Tag Chandelure ?

Very noticeable in OU, Contrary Serperior if I remember well. But there are a lot of mons unreleased specially 5th gen mons, but I don't think that will do noticeable changes in OU, they are for almost lower tiers.

@Tobes, but running Shed Shell for only Chandelure isn't centralizing?, it's not the same of running on Ferrothorn or Lugia because they are 1 poke, but running in 3 pokes of the team running an useless item against non-Chandelure teams?

 

[superbadd]

Serperior is something exciting. Another ou viable grass type is something to look forward to. Notable mons that aren't released yet are: ST Chandelure, Contrary Serperior, Lighting rod zapdos, volt absorb raikou, water absorb suicune, and female DW starters(their egg moves are very notable).

 

[Lunar Fist]

With all of the 4x Grass Resists in OU, such as Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Amoongus, as well as Dragonite and other more offensive resists, I don't think Serperior will be sweeping teams any time soon.

Plus, Tornadus-T can come in and revenge kill with its higher base speed.

I've played with Serperior in DW OU and it does sweep very effectively, but it requires teammates that can remove its checks because Serperior can't do much without set-up.

Other sets for Serperior don't rely on Contrary, so they may still be used, but the shift won't cause Serperior to rise to OU.

 

[EonX]

Well, the addition of Dragon Pulse to Serperior's movepool really does help it. Now it can pick a Hidden Power dedicated to Steel types rather than having to choose between HP Ice and HP Fire/Fighting and get walled by whatever resists it. Still, finding a time to set-up a couple of "Nasty Plots" will probably be pretty difficult with how offensive the tier is atm.

 

[Diatom]

Is it just me, or is Scarf Flash Fire Chandelure really anti-metagame right now?

Here's how it does against the top 20:

Politoed: Politoed wins 1v1, but can't switch in thanks to Energy Ball.
Scizor: Lol.
Ferrothorn: Lol.
Dragonite: Fairly even match. Shadow Ball does a number on it once Multiscale is broken, and it can't use ExtremeSpeed due to Chandelure's Ghost-type. However, it can't take a +1 outrage.
Heatran: HP fighting does a lot to it, and heatran can't do much back, unless it's running Earth Power. If you can come in on a Speced or Scarved fire move, you opponent can say goodbye to a poke unless it's raining.
Jirachi: Chandelure destroys it whenever it's not raining. Even when it is raining, Jirachi definitely won't want to switch in.
Breloom: Lol.
Gliscor: Won't want to take Fire Blasts or Shadow Balls to the face. Chandy can't switch in on it thanks to EQ, but does win 1v1.
Tyranitar: No.
Tornadus-T: Tornadus-T wins 1v1, but it can't switch in.
Starmie: Chandy wins 1v1, but can't switch in.
Rotom-W: Will not want to be taking an energy ball to the face.
Thundurus-T: See Tornadus-T.
Salamence: See Dragonite.
Forretress: Lol.
Latios: Doesn't want to be taking Shadow balls, but Chandy can't switch in.
Mamoswine: Fairly even match. Neither side wants to take the other side's moves.
Terrakion: You can beat it when it's locked into CC, but don't switch in unless you know it's banded or scarved. If it is weakened, you can outspeed and KO all non-scarf varients with Shadow Ball, but it needs to have taken prior damage. If sand is up, however, just no.
Gengar: Chandelure outspeeds and KOs all non-scarf varients.
Tentacruel: No.

List of pokes that can come in on Chandy (note that only TTar is in the top ten):
Tyranitar
Terrakion when sand is up
Tentacruel.

List of pokes that Chandy can come in on (note that all but Forry are in the top ten):
Scizor
Ferrothorn
Heatran lacking Earth Power or locked into anything but Earth Power
Jirachi using Body Slam to paralyze
Breloom
Forretress

As you can see, Chandy can come in on most of the top ten, and wreck havoc even when it is raining.

EDIT: Also, you can come in on the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd most used pokes in the metagame, and destroy them as well.

 

[EonX]

List of pokes that Chandy can come in on (note that all but Forry are in the top ten):
Scizor
Ferrothorn
Heatran lacking Earth Power or locked into anything but Earth Power
Jirachi using Body Slam to paralyze
Breloom
Forretress

As you can see, Chandy can come in on most of the top ten, and wreck havoc even when it is raining.

EDIT: Also, you can come in on the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd most used pokes in the metagame, and destroy them as well.

Let's see what these Pokemon will likely be doing at the time Chandelure comes in:

Scizor - probably will be spamming the heck out of U-Turn, so you're likely getting forced out.
Ferrothorn - if it hits you with Thunder Wave on the switch, you're crippled. also, it's commonly with a Fire resist for obvious reasons.
Heatran - any Heatran lacking Earth Power is going to have Protect 99% of the time. It'll simply scout the move you want to use and switch to the appropriate resist if it lacks Earth Power.
Jirachi - rain-boosted Water Pulse from SubCM. That is all. Plus, Specially Defensive Jirachi on a rain team will likely be using Thunder to paralyze since it's used to hard counter Tornadus-T.
Breloom - unless your name is Celebi, any Breloom counter risks saying hi to a Spore on the switch and being rendered useless for the rest of the game, Chandelure included. It's been that way for 3 generations now.
Forretress - read Ferrothorn, but add that it commonly has Volt Switch to get away from Magnezone.

So, yes, Chandelure can potentially come in on all of these Pokemon, but the vast majority of them are likely going to have something that just screws you over.

 

[Skore]

Chances are they are not going to take your fire move so you run HP Ground to say bye bye Heatran and you run Energy Ball for the bulky water switch in dependent on your opponent's team.

 

[Tobes]

Very noticeable in OU, Contrary Serperior if I remember well. But there are a lot of mons unreleased specially 5th gen mons, but I don't think that will do noticeable changes in OU, they are for almost lower tiers.

@Tobes, but running Shed Shell for only Chandelure isn't centralizing?, it's not the same of running on Ferrothorn or Lugia because they are 1 poke, but running in 3 pokes of the team running an useless item against non-Chandelure teams?

I didn't say Chandelure isn't centralizing. It definitely is. But Chandelure cannot obsolete stall all by it's lonesome, as long as Shed Shell exists. The issue that would have to be looked at is "Does the lack of Leftovers on a handful of Pokemon make stall unviable". I'm inclined to say no. A stall player will have to play better, and might need to adjust a line-up to better deal with an offensive threat. If the only impact Chandelure had was cauing stall teams or teams with a defensive pivot to run Shed Shell on more than one Pokemon, I would not call that overcentralization. But Chandelure has much more of an effect than this. Its influence isn't cut-and-dry in the slightest. I've always been aware that it was likely that the general public would not like dealing with a Shadow Tag Chandelure meta, and I've also respected the arguments that Chandelure is broken. I can see where they're coming from. But I do not think that argument hinges on "I can't use Chansey or Slowbro without Shed Shell. They deserve to be metagame viable even though they've been UU this gen! Chandelure must be overcentralizing!" Pokemon become viable and unviable alongside metagame shifts. This is how it's always been.

So to put it in more succinct terms: You could make the argument that Shadow Tag Chandelure overcentralizes the metagame, but I do not think that influencing stall enough that it runs Shed Shell on its walls is a strong enough argument on its own.

This topic does seem to be heading towards "Pokemon X is broken" territory though, which I'd like to steer clear of.

Anyway, to shift back to current metagame discussion:

I've still been playing rain, mostly because I've been so busy with WCOP that I haven't had the time to really focus on BW2 and make new teams. Tornadus-T is still probably my favorite Pokemon in the metagame. As long as rain is up it's just such a good stand-alone Pokemon. A fast Taunt is also always useful against Deo-D offense and the like. I do sometimes find myself missing Hidden Power Ice, say when I need to get a KO on Salamence but sand is up, or if I know Thundurus-T is switching in.

A lot of people think that Choice Scarf Thundurus-T is a waste of its offensive potential, but really it's such an efficient revenge killer that I've never questioned the set's viability. It's like if Landorus had been designed for rain teams. Even without a boosting nature or item Thunder still does a lot, and HP Ice and Focus Blast are excellent coverage moves, even on a Scarfer. I'm not regretting running U-turn over Volt Switch at all, since the situations in which a Choice Scarf Thundurus-T locked into Volt Switch against a Ground-type / Jolteon / other Thundurus-T almost never end well for it, especially when considering that nasty Stealth Rock weakness.

PS. Scarftoed is still the best Politoed.

 

[haunter]

I'm not sure why we're theorymoning about an unreleased Pokemon that, as far as we know, might not be released at all. Also I'd like to remind everybody that "centralization" means almost nothing, it's not a sufficient argument per se to deem something overpowered. Every OU Pokemon centralizes the metagame to a certain extent.

Anyway, how does Gothitelle do against weather summoners? I was planning on testing it out yesterday but the massive lag on PS! prevented me from doing it.

 

[ginganinja]

I was chatting with others on IRC on Gothitelle, and I am pretty sure that most of us believed that Choice Specs might be its best set, since it could do a fairly decent job at KOing or crippling most of the weather starters out there. Granted, lag is preventing me from doing the testing I would like, but between Psyshock / Thunderbolt / HP Fighting / Trick, it can be fairly effective against most weather starters, and even cripple special walls with a well timed Trick.

 

[Danger Mouse]

I am currently building a sand team with ST Goth to see if it might make a good means of trapping and eliminating enemy weather...the idea sounds intriguing and might actually be a good use for Goth.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Genesect? It's friggin amazing. Its only downsides are its 99 base speed (and you thought hydreigon's base speed was trollish) and its barren physical movepool, but everything else about it is great: vast special movepool, fantastic stats, an ability that suits its style perfectly, and a very good typing with only one weakness.

 

[superbadd]

If you thought scizor was annoying, just wait till genesect continues ripping up the ladder.

 

[Jirabi]

If you thought scizor was annoying, just wait till genesect continues ripping up the ladder.

I swear this thing is annoying me to the death, !%@%!@%, the current team which i had much success laddering with had trouble dealing with amazing BoltBeam U-turn coverage

 

[Ricky Horror]

I find the newest Bug/Steel of OU, not as annoying I foreseen. Easily walled by a few favorites and I enjoy running Volcarona to cinder that minor annoyance. lol

 

[X5Dragon]

I think in the next month Genesect will reach usage similar to Rotoms and th rise of Ice shard users and SR leads as well. The pretty much the only way survive offensively in OU these days, sash your priorities and keep those rocks.

 

[FrostFire]

eh, I haven't actually had too much problem with Genesect (though I do run rain stall, alongside specially defensive Jirachi...). I mean, it's really good as a scarfer, but overall I think people are hyping it a bit too much.

Firstly, Genesect is so damn predictable. Basically, whenever you fight it, this is what you know:

It will have three out of these four moves:
-Bug Buzz
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Flamethrower

It will have one of these two moves:
-U-turn
-Rock Polish

You can even simplify this equation further by simply saying that Genesect will always carry both Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, as those two moves are pretty necessary in terms of coverage. Now, I know that you could have all four attacks + life orb, or focus sash or something - the moveset doesn't have to be Rock Polish or Choice Scarf. But here's the thing: No matter what Genesect you're facing, they're all substantively similar. That is, all Genesects basically have 4 out of the above 6 attacks, pretty well always - and that means their counters are all the same. Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, Gastrodon, Volcarona, Specially Defensive Jirachi in Rain etc. These pokemon are basically universal Checks/ Counters to any Genesect. Sure, you could run that random HP [ground] for Heatran - but it'd be a gimmick, and you'd be walled by a whole lot more, thanks to giving up a far superior coverage move.

Now, don't get me wrong. Genesect is awesome. Fantastic. The bee's knees. It's just that, because everyone's been hyping it so much, I feel that I needed to weigh in on the other side of the equation, and take the role of Mr. Negative. Also, I keep on reading about Genesect's versatility - People. Genesect is many things, but versatile is not one of them. It's 2 major moveset options - Rock Polish and Choice Scarf - are stopped by the exact same things, and carry the same attacks bar one move (U-turn/ Rock Polish).

I feel like I've been too mean to Genesect, so I'll also say that Scarf (IMO it's best set) is amazing. With Download, even uninvested U-turn is solid, and it can potentially make it's Special Attacks scary. It's a fantastic 'mon, but like all pokemon, it has it's limitations.

Well, I suppose Arceus may be the exception to the 'all pokemon have limitations' thing, but you get the point :p