Thanks! I was worried no one replied to my post. I had so much success with it, and it is very anti-meta.
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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
I think every team I've ever made ends up with a Lanturn on it. They don't always start out with him, but his excellent typing and bulk eventually gets him on there. Water resist, electric immunity, Parafusion, bulk, great STABs, BoltBeam, he's just so good.
So yea, for my current team, I used to use the defensive Lanturn set of Scald/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Heal Bell, but I decided to switch to the SubCharge set to see how it did, and I'm never going back. As long as I can remove Ferrothorn (I have four team members that can) and Keldeo (not as easy), he has so many opportunities to set up. Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Rotom, Starmie, Politoed, Jirachi, Fire-types, Forretress after a Taunt since he absorbs Volt Switch, it just goes on. I'm not saying he's a destroyer of worlds, but he's definitely a headache if I play my cards right. It certainly helps most people probably think it's a standard bulky water set, but I don't want to underestimate my opponents.
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Modest
HP 252 / SPATK 244 / SPE 32
Substitute
Charge Beam
Surf
Ice Beam
The speed lets him outrun Skarmory, Breloom with no speed (I think most are just running Max HP and Max ATK now), Defensive Politoed and most versions of Vaporeon. But yea, come in on a water or electric attack, set up a sub, and then go with it (charge or attack).
So yea, for my current team, I used to use the defensive Lanturn set of Scald/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Heal Bell, but I decided to switch to the SubCharge set to see how it did, and I'm never going back. As long as I can remove Ferrothorn (I have four team members that can) and Keldeo (not as easy), he has so many opportunities to set up. Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Rotom, Starmie, Politoed, Jirachi, Fire-types, Forretress after a Taunt since he absorbs Volt Switch, it just goes on. I'm not saying he's a destroyer of worlds, but he's definitely a headache if I play my cards right. It certainly helps most people probably think it's a standard bulky water set, but I don't want to underestimate my opponents.
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Modest
HP 252 / SPATK 244 / SPE 32
Substitute
Charge Beam
Surf
Ice Beam
The speed lets him outrun Skarmory, Breloom with no speed (I think most are just running Max HP and Max ATK now), Defensive Politoed and most versions of Vaporeon. But yea, come in on a water or electric attack, set up a sub, and then go with it (charge or attack).
Even if Keldo is a bit overrated, but I've been loving a sub calm mind set
Keldo @ leftovers
timid
4 hp 252 sp atk 252 spd
Hydro Pump
Sacred Sword
Sub
Calm mind
its great, just switch it in on something you can force out, sub then smack that tornados with a rain boosted hydro pump.
Keldo @ leftovers
timid
4 hp 252 sp atk 252 spd
Hydro Pump
Sacred Sword
Sub
Calm mind
its great, just switch it in on something you can force out, sub then smack that tornados with a rain boosted hydro pump.
This set does have hard counters, which is why I suggest Tyranitar as a partner to deal with literally all of Lati@S, Jellicent and so on. You're best off using 352/364 HP for optimum Leftovers recovery, with the remaining EVs thrown into SAtk for more power. And you're investing in some time on the playing field with this set, so Surf must replace Hydro Pump to prolong the outcome.
Hydro Pump may hit like a truck, but I recommend that you reserve it for the Choice Specs set; perhaps an offensive Life Orb varient for crucial OHKOs.
Think you meant Secret Sword bud. Sacred is a physical move ^^ and doesn't hit as hard. Used this set myself and works great!
Grass Knot only deals 40 base damage against Lanturn, so neutral Focus Blast easily outdamage it.
To be fair, Lanturn isn't total garbage. STAB Surf-Thunder in rain is pretty good with Lanturn's bulk. It's also arguably the best Parafusion abuser in the game.
It's just slow as molasses. If it had a better speed, it would be a LOT better.
Bear in mind garbage like Gastrodon is OU to counter rain. If Lanturn can stop Tornadus and Thunderus at the same time, it's viable.
The thing about lanturn is that while it can be good against rain, it really falters against anything else. With no recovery, it can't handle Sun boosted moves, and even if it did, it can't handle the grass moves. On Sandstorm, it's walled by Amoongus and is too slow to avoid Earthquakes. Keep in mind that Mamoswine is as popular as ever (even on rain)
Gastrodon more reliably counters things like Rotom-W, which are not just found on Rain team better than Lanturn due to recovery. Gastrodon in general takes physical hits better due to it's stats and recovery. Lanturn also has a ground weakness, making it difficult facing most sandstrom teams.
Gastrodon takes no damage from Sandstorm and can even tank rock type attacks. It handles ground types like Gliscor much better due to lack of ground weakness, While Lanturn gambles to see if it is faster than Gliscor (which is rare) Not to mention Heatran also carries Earth Power too, further making Lanturn's life difficult.
Gastrodon takes no damage from Sandstorm and can even tank rock type attacks. It handles ground types like Gliscor much better due to lack of ground weakness, While Lanturn gambles to see if it is faster than Gliscor (which is rare) Not to mention Heatran also carries Earth Power too, further making Lanturn's life difficult.
Lanturn's lack of recovery seriously hurts. People can just keep on switching out as you rely on a non-healing tank to continue taking hits. Maybe use a wish supporter with it? I agree with the above post. Gastrodon is a lot more reliable against sand teams. Also, recovery helps it tank hits and not die.
I agree...i learn my lesson from over perdicting things and keep taking hits is ridiculous and having tanks that don't recover like ferrothorn with leech seed or a milotic for rest and sleep talk is better option to me ...i mean lanturn is a nice attacker but i don'think it go's very well as a defender but going full out with no tanks that recover is a bad option..even cressilia is a better option...wish is a good touch to lanturn but will it really save from a hard hit grass hit?
Ok guys, lay the fuck off of Lanturn. I doubt any of you have ever even used it. Additionally, you guys are posting some pretty stupid shit.
If you people wanna rag on Lanturn, go use it, find out what its actual flaws are instead of pretending you know, and then come back. Lanturn isn't outclassed by Gastrodon, and you guys made up just about every argument you had. Get real.
</me defend Lanturn>
You guys brag about how Gastrodon is fullfills the exact same niche, but better, then you post this. Oh yeah, because Gastrodon can totally "handle the grass moves" from a Sun team.
First of all, Lanturn has Ice Beam, so Amoonguss can't switch into it. Second of all, Amoonguss deals with Gastrodon even easier than Lanturn (4x weakness). And I notice that Gastrodon is slower than Lanturn. All of Lanturn's flaws are magnified on Gastrodon.
This doesn't even make sense. How does Gastrodon handle Rotom-W better? Gastrodon can't even touch Rotom-W without Rain and a Storm Drain boost. Lanturn can Thunder its ass off, Gastrodon just sits in front of it all day looking goofy.
I'd like to point out that Lanturn can be faster than most Gliscor if it wants, it just takes a ton of investment. I don't see your precious Gastrodon out-speeding anything. Also, Heatran's Earth Power fails to 2HKO Lanturn if you invest in SpDef, which you should be doing anyway. So Lanturn can fucking switch in on an Earth Power, tank another one, and OHKO the Heatran if wanted to.
People, stop saying that Lanturn doesn't have recovery. Oh, I just switched into Thundurus-T's Thunder? I get 25% back. Oh, I just switched into Rotom-W's Volt Switch? I get 25% back. Oh, I just switched into Starmie's Thunderbolt? I get 25% back.
I already said, Lanturn is NOT a "defender". Stop calling it one. And really? Cresselia is better? Maybe on a Sun team, but Cresselai is straight-up bad anywhere except in Sun. Lastly, you say that Wish won't save Lanturn from a hard Grass hit. Well Wish won't save Ferrothorn from a strong Fighting hit. Wish won't save Tentacruel from a strong Psychic hit. Don't expect a Pokemon to tank attacks it's weak to, that's just ridiculous.
If you people wanna rag on Lanturn, go use it, find out what its actual flaws are instead of pretending you know, and then come back. Lanturn isn't outclassed by Gastrodon, and you guys made up just about every argument you had. Get real.
</me defend Lanturn>
I actually have used Lanturn before, it's good against rain but with no recovery at all, it's not very good outside of rain where usually Gastrodon can do the same thing outside of rain, but better, due to recovery, and generally higher stats (especially offense).
You're right, both don't like sun team very much, but are you really saying that Lanturn would do well against a Sandstorm team? If you want to outspeed Gliscor that's going to take quite a few EVs (in fact you would need a Speed boosting nature to achieve this), and with that you're losing out on either Special defense, so that Earth Power from Heatran has a chance to 2HKO you, or from Special attack, to which point you won't be hitting as nearly has hard as Gastrodon would. So, Would I use that much speed, and hinder my offensive or defensive capabilities with Lanturn just to out speed Gliscor for fear of an Earthquake, when I could just use Gastrodon or even Rotom-W to achieve the same thing but without losing offensive and defensive capabilities?
That pretty much sums of Lanturn right there. It needs to make too many compromises to be effective. Yes, it can be good in rain but if you are facing Sandstorm or even Weatherless it won't be as good as Gastrodon.
That is what I experienced and that is all I will say.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Honestly, neither Pokemon deals with gliscor in a sandstorm team at all. Gastrodon will be eating a +2 flying gem acrobatics while lanturn will be eating an earthquake. For that matter, both get stalled out by toxic stall gliscor. And while gliscor won't switch into either one, they have no business switching into him.
Not all Gliscor on Sandstorm teams are offensive variants. In fact, all the Gliscor I've seen are defensive ones. Keep in mind Gliscor is often seen on Weatherless teams and even Hail teams.
Also, Choice Band Dragonite is incredibly effective, as it can pick off many threats with a simple E-speed. Many offensive teams I see are lacking a steel type (I can't really see why.) Superpower is great to hit steels outside of rain and is very powerful. Things like Keldeo are easy pickings for Dragonite.
Also, Choice Band Dragonite is incredibly effective, as it can pick off many threats with a simple E-speed. Many offensive teams I see are lacking a steel type (I can't really see why.) Superpower is great to hit steels outside of rain and is very powerful. Things like Keldeo are easy pickings for Dragonite.
Cooky
Banned deucer.
a slightly favourable metagame does not necessarily mean its effective. yeah it fucks over rotom-w and thundurus-t locked into volt switch, but no ones spamming electric moves while immunities are present once you get above 1300. hurricane resistance doesnt mean much when youre getting u turned the first switchin anyway and then 2HKOd with sr damage.
in the meantime, its weak to sr, spikes and ss, and has no reliable recovery (no volt absorb doesnt count), which is pretty shit, especially if you consider that its free layers for ferrothorn / deoxys d / roserade / anything. moreover its defenses are average, so as you can see this bad boy gets worn down fast. non existant offenses dont help its competition for a team spot either.
one good thing that sets it apart is volt switch which is i guess an incentive for teams that love momentum. bleh conceptually its ok but dont use this whats the point
in the meantime, its weak to sr, spikes and ss, and has no reliable recovery (no volt absorb doesnt count), which is pretty shit, especially if you consider that its free layers for ferrothorn / deoxys d / roserade / anything. moreover its defenses are average, so as you can see this bad boy gets worn down fast. non existant offenses dont help its competition for a team spot either.
one good thing that sets it apart is volt switch which is i guess an incentive for teams that love momentum. bleh conceptually its ok but dont use this whats the point
I personally thing the biggest threat of the meta at the moment is Doexys-D. It's spike stacking capabilties are amazing, heck id rather deal with Deoxys-S than this thing because it could be easily 2HKOed. Honestly I think the only reason its useage isn't as much as it should be is the high use of Scizor and Tyranitar, both of which are being slightly less used in the BW2 meta.
I haven't used Keldeo yet, but i have faced lots of them, and tbh, they were underwhelming. Well the skill level on Pokemon Showdown is average at best (i am at 1850 rating now and still 3 out of 4 opponents are noobs/semi-noobs) but i still haven't lost a singe poke to it (except from fodder pokes).
The best use of Keldeo seems to be as a straight-up attacker that hits very hard in rain with either LO or Specs. This way you don't have to get forced out by Starmie, Tornadus, Amoonguss and Scarf Thundurus, which are everywhere. So when you try to force out my Tyranitar with Keldeo, please don't CM up, simply hit Hydro Pump to damage my switch in.
Maybe a well played SubCM Lefties Keldeo with some bulk will have great potential if used by a good player and with proper support (Pursuit trapping and T-Spikes mainly), but i have yet to see one.
Oh and i have faced zero Specs Keldeo on the ladder.
The best use of Keldeo seems to be as a straight-up attacker that hits very hard in rain with either LO or Specs. This way you don't have to get forced out by Starmie, Tornadus, Amoonguss and Scarf Thundurus, which are everywhere. So when you try to force out my Tyranitar with Keldeo, please don't CM up, simply hit Hydro Pump to damage my switch in.
Maybe a well played SubCM Lefties Keldeo with some bulk will have great potential if used by a good player and with proper support (Pursuit trapping and T-Spikes mainly), but i have yet to see one.
Oh and i have faced zero Specs Keldeo on the ladder.
While my team might not use it, I've used Keldeo twice - a CM + 3 Attacks version and a Specs version, the latter under Rain. The only Keldeo I normally see are SubCM Keldeo. That being said, I honestly think Keldeo actually makes an excellent CMer, if you can keep it away from Scarfers and priority - which I believe are its only two weaknesses. SubCM is great in its own right, although it is somewhat limited in its coverage options. (Damnit, why couldn't GF make Clear Smog go through a Sub?) Specs Keldeo is absolutely incredible in the Rain - I'm not sure I've ever seen something so powerful that didn't set up beforehand. I've also seen a physical Keldeo (lol) and a mixed CM version (in Rain) that really surprised me - and it's apparently not bad. It ran Aqua Jet over a coverage move / Sub to disrupt revenge killers.
There are so many things I want to test (including Landuros-T, Klinklang, and NU in its entirety) but I want to hold off until Iconic's tournament ends.
There are so many things I want to test (including Landuros-T, Klinklang, and NU in its entirety) but I want to hold off until Iconic's tournament ends.
CM+3 Attacks with Life Orb makes an excellent late-game sweeper, and also puts pressure on slower teams. It shouldn't be discounted, but I agree that SubCM is generally better.
No, I'm not saying that Lanturn excels against Sandstorm teams, and I have no clue how you got that out of my post. I'm saying that Gastrodon doesn't do much better. Gastrodon still can't switch into CB Terrakion Stone Edge (it gets 3HKOed, and it can't even 2HKO Terrakion back). Gastrodon still isn't going to handle that SD Lucario your opponent has. And Gastrodon still says "Fuck." when a Celebi switches into it. My point is, Gastrodon is no better off against a Sandstorm team than Lanturn is.
And stop saying Lanturn has no recovery. It heals every time it comes into the STAB of Jolteon, or Magnezone, or Rotom-W, or Thundurus-T, and more (all of which it counters anyway). And the number of Pokemon that love running Thunderbolt for coverage isn't that small either.
I never said it was a good idea to out-speed Gliscor. I said that Lanturn could do it, because you made it seem like out-speeding Gliscor was a big deal (not like Gastrodon can out-speed Gliscor). Gliscor still gets fucked if it tries to switch into Lanturn. Oh, and by the way, Lanturn can tank an Earthquake from full health, and OHKO back. So Gliscor is actually shit against Lanturn.
How does Gastrodon fare against Gliscor? Well, it gets 2HKOed by a completely uninvested +2 Earthquake. Meanwhile, Scald fails to KO Gliscor in return. A Gliscor with 252 Atk EVs (and a neutral nature) will OHKO Gastrodon with a +2 Earthquake after Stealth Rock or Spikes (and without any HP investment, Gliscor STILL isn't KOed by Scald). So Gastrodon does shit vs any Gliscor with SD. And don't get me started on what SubToxic Gliscor does.
So you don't need to detract from SpDef EVs, and Heatran actually can't 2HKO you with Earth Power. Lanturn is almost as bulky as Gastrodon, and is more powerful than Gastrodon. As I've been showing you, Gastrodon is better than Lanturn in NONE of the ways that you've said.
And what the hell was that about Rotom-W doing the same thing? Rotom-W is hardly bulky at all, and gets ass-raped if it tries to tank a Thunder from Thundurus-T, or anything like that. Rotom-W also can't Ice Beam the pants off a Breloom which comes in to set up on it.
Okay, well I don't what exactly your experience with Lanturn was, but it's sorta clear that you weren't using it right. Lanturn doesn't need to make many compromises at all, and I've shown that Gastrodon fares just as, if not more poorly, in all the situations you outlined. No, I'm not calling Lanturn the end-all be-all of OU nowadays, but you need to stop saying its outclassed by a Pokemon that can't even do Lanturn's job.
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OKAY, so about WATER PONY. I would agree with everyone who's said that SubCM and Specs Keldeo are generally gonna be what Keldeo runs. They do most all of what you would expect Keldeo to do. And they're good at it (Water Pony fucking terrifies me). But CM + 3 Attacks is also notable, as ArcticBlast said. It's harder to use, from what I've seen, than the other sets, but it's the scariest of all if you get it just right, because the freedom to switch moves, and extra coverage, makes it about impossible to wall after a boost (although it's more easily revenge-killed than any other set). Dang, I love Water Pony, because it's the second cutest Pokemon of all.
Oh, and Scarf Keldeo does work, but only by virtue of its stats. Just about anything with 108 Speed and a 129 Attack/Special Attack could run a viable Scarf set. But honestly, why would you run Scarf Keldeo when Scarf Terrakion exists? Terrakion's movepool is MUCH better suited to revenge-killing than Keldeo's. Things like Salamence, Gyarados, and even Venusaur don't feel particularly threatened when a Scarf Keldeo comes in, but they all piss their pants when a Scarf Terrakion finds his way in.
Also, I've seen so many battles where someone thinks that resisting Keldeo's STABs makes something a counter. It doesn't. Shit like Dragonite gets 2HKOed in the Rain, and yet people never seem to learn. It amuses me.
Scarf Keldeo's merit over Terrakion comes from not being weak to Mach Punch or Bullet Punch, in addition to rain-boosted lategame sweeps. It's something that should only be run in rain, but as SlimMan pointed out that base 108 Speed goes a long way towards making it viable. It also has that lovely benefit of surprising Tornadus-T and Choice Scarf Thundurus-T when they come in after a kill expecting to be able to fire off a free move, only to be outsped and smashed in the face by a rain-boosted Hydro Pump.
Personally, I adore Specs Keldeo. Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / HP Electric / Icy Wind has been working very well for me... as long as Keldeo can connect with Hydro Pump every once in a goddamn while. Sadly the power is too good to pass up for Surf, and I'd rather not give up coverage since Keldeo is difficult to switch into with good prediction. For those wondering about HP Electric, I reasoned that Icy Wind deals with Lati@s even better than Hidden Power Ghost, and that Electric nails everything else that Ghost would hit, and more. Jellicent is still hit for super effective, but now Tentacruel and Gyarados are as well, and Toxicroak is still hit for neutral. Note that Hydro Pump in rain is only marginally weaker against Tentacruel, but the extra damage and accuracy go a long way.
Calm Mind sets generally aren't a wise choice with the Therians running around, which is why I suppose people like the Sub CM version. Personally I want to try pairing Metagross with Keldeo, since it can wreck Latios or trap it with Pursuit, and switch in on Tornadus-T's Hurricane. Zen Headbutt might be a necessary evil now though, with Keldeo and Thundurus-T running about.
Personally, I adore Specs Keldeo. Hydro Pump / Secret Sword / HP Electric / Icy Wind has been working very well for me... as long as Keldeo can connect with Hydro Pump every once in a goddamn while. Sadly the power is too good to pass up for Surf, and I'd rather not give up coverage since Keldeo is difficult to switch into with good prediction. For those wondering about HP Electric, I reasoned that Icy Wind deals with Lati@s even better than Hidden Power Ghost, and that Electric nails everything else that Ghost would hit, and more. Jellicent is still hit for super effective, but now Tentacruel and Gyarados are as well, and Toxicroak is still hit for neutral. Note that Hydro Pump in rain is only marginally weaker against Tentacruel, but the extra damage and accuracy go a long way.
Calm Mind sets generally aren't a wise choice with the Therians running around, which is why I suppose people like the Sub CM version. Personally I want to try pairing Metagross with Keldeo, since it can wreck Latios or trap it with Pursuit, and switch in on Tornadus-T's Hurricane. Zen Headbutt might be a necessary evil now though, with Keldeo and Thundurus-T running about.