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BW2 Uber Metagame Discussion Thread: Clean Version

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by barry4ever, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    @Faint

    trickroom and Pokemon Trainer R have shared their input on Multiscale Lugia in its respective thread, having used it themselves. Though this experience might not be as relevant, I've played his Multiscale Lugia a couple of times in DW Ubers and it was quite a pain, Can't share any specific examples but it does make Lugia a huge pain if you're trying to confront it with sheer force (except Zek/Resh/Kyu formes), because it can now actually take the hit from a dangerous Pokemon like Kyogre and phaze you away, and possibly just Roost off if the next thing isn't particularly threatening, and start the chain again.
  2. mtr

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    I will never be on Jibaku's or Trickroom's or whomever's level, but I like to think that I'm an ok player.

    The best, and most accessible, way to get past Multiscale Lugia is Toxic. Even strong special assaults bounce off it, you need to use Calm Mind if you want to get past it that way. Pair Lugia with a Darkrai check like Fightceus and you already have a good team hehe.


    I think that speaks volumes about how great it is.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I am really loving the combination of Lead Froslass with Icy Wind, SubShuffler Giratina-0 (both sets are in the QC phase, credits to Poppy), and offensive Groudon (max Atk, max Spe) with SR. Amazing combo for offensive teams, as no spinner can spin against those, and Giratina-0 abuses the hell out of the hazards with Poppy's great set. Also, whenever the opponent sees Lefties and SR on Groudon, they assume it is the support set, and then you can surprise them by outspeeding their Ho-Oh, Adamant Rayquaza, and some +2 Excadrill that want to spin. For this to happen, you should have not take any hit, though, as against any good players, the damage output will be very different.
  4. polop

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    So I was trying out good old quick stall and semi stall with Xatu, Mewtwo, and Qwilfish (they weren't on the same team I made different teams based around their support), and all I can say is its still as effective as it was in BW1. Perhaps even more effective due to the drop in Mewtwo and the rise of Kyurem-forms as wall breakers (I find them easier to handle for some reason, BK sucks, WK gets walled by chansey :P), it benefits enormously from Exca getting mold breaker as it now basically screws over so much of the meta (Gira-o and Latias) that its not even funny. The forgotten wall that IS Tina fey (gira-a) I find is excellent in this meta. Its ability to wall regen Ho-oh all day while sporting fantastic special bulk is great, and unlike Lugia it spin blocks too.

    THAT THING (Gira-o) IS MEAN TO BE UP AGAINST. The speed shuffling is just... sad, you can't shuffle it out and by the time you break its sub, its phazed and another stall member will just let it get a sub up :(.
  5. mtr

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    I love Qwilfish, though not as much as Tentacruel.

    In general, Poison is a strong typing in Ubers. Mostly just because Toxic Spikes are way stronger in Ubers than they are in the other tiers, as more people are affected by them.
  6. alexwolf

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    Yeah Mr.lol, SubShuffling Giratina-0 is a pain for stall teams to deal with. Skarmory is a problem though, as it doesn't care so much about the burn, and can use you as set-up bait.
  7. gookie

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    yeah credits to donkey for that great tina-o set

    i've still been using sand in the new meta; it's really hard to fit, since lum is usually more useful, but choice band ttar has immense power and when used properly (make an effort to get it in on resisted choiced attacks) can snipe out key threats like scarf palkia, scarf ogre, giratina-o, lati@s, etc. still using sand rush drill but with the new iron head, kicks a lot of ass.

    with the advent of regen ho-oh and latias sand doesn't need to fuck around with its defensive pokemon. latias handles kyogre so perfectly (fuck t-wave) and ho-oh patches up fighting, ground, and grass attacks - these two cover almost the entire special ubers metagame.
  8. spuds4ever

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    Idk about the lati twins taking on kyogre. Both are still 2hkoed easily by a specs ice beam or water spout even if they're running 252HP/252Sp.Def with soul dew.

    One thing I've found very effective in this metagame now is steel-arceus. Not only do you hard counter the kyurem formes in the rain, you still counter e-killer and pretty much every physical dragon-type around (courtesy of being able to run will-o-wisp with calm mind due to toxic immunity). I'm quite surprised that it hasn't been seen more.

    Ditto has also been pretty impressive and is actually one of the best cleaners in the tier and definetely the best revenge-killer while still having utility against stall by being able to transform into their spinner or something.
  9. gookie

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    they outspeed kyogre so specs spout isn't an issue (it doesn't 2hko with investment btw, not that you even need it) ice beam you can just go to an easy resist

    steel arceus isn't an ekiller counter

    DD v-create rayquaza beats steel arceus

    ditto doesn't get the right typed judgments nor does it get a soul dew boost, so its uses aren't as widespread as one might think
  10. spuds4ever

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    Hmm, that's strange. Clearly honko's calculator isn't doing that calc then properly (unless I'm doing something wrong or my PC is messed up).

    How is steel arceus not an ekiller counter? Switch-in, outspeed (I haven't seen e-killer go jolly before) and burn it and then you can knock it down quickly in HP with judgement. I'm no expert on ubers, though, so I'd appreciate it if you elaborated a little more.

    That's true, though v-create I haven't noticed to be particularly common on DD ray seeing as it lowers speed.

    Still, all you miss out on though are latias and a few arceus forms (latios is still OHKOed with draco meteor, soul dew or not).

    Ditto is still very useful though, at least for offensive teams, as it makes setting up very dangerous for the opponent.
  11. Pokémon Trainer R

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    This is why Arceus-Steel is not an Extreme Killer Arceus counter:

    Start of turn 5
    Kirge Opie called Wisemon back!
    Kirge Opie sent out OverlordGAIA! (Arceus-Rock)
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used Swords Dance!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus's Attack sharply rose!
    The sunlight is strong!
    [805]Killer G's reflect wore off!

    Start of turn 6
    OverlordGAIA used Will-O-Wisp!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus was burned!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus ate its Lum Berry!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus's status cleared!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used Swords Dance!
    [805]Killer G's Arceus's Attack sharply rose!
    The sunlight is strong!

    Start of turn 7
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used ExtremeSpeed!
    It's not very effective...
    OverlordGAIA lost 175 HP! (39% of its health)
    OverlordGAIA used Will-O-Wisp!
    The attack of OverlordGAIA missed!
    The sunlight is strong!

    Start of turn 8
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used ExtremeSpeed!
    It's not very effective...
    OverlordGAIA lost 177 HP! (39% of its health)
    OverlordGAIA used Will-O-Wisp!
    The attack of OverlordGAIA missed!
    The sunlight is strong!

    Start of turn 9
    [805]Killer G's Arceus used ExtremeSpeed!
    It's not very effective...
    OverlordGAIA lost 92 HP! (20% of its health)
    OverlordGAIA fainted!

    Keep in mind that Will-O-Wisp only has a 56% chance of hitting twice in a row, meaning that all it would take would be for a Brick Break or Earthquake-using Arceus-Normal to hold a Lum Berry in order to get around this Arceus-Steel almost half of the time.
  12. spuds4ever

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    "If will-o-wisp missing" is your argument that you can't beat e-killer, than you might as well say it has no real counter. Giratina still gets 2hkoed by a +2 shadow claw and if it misses will-o-wisp then rest-talk isn't going to save you. Terrakion can't safely switch in due to the threat of EQ or brick break.

    In such a fast-paced and dangerous enviroment that ubers is, missing a crucial hit will lose you a pokemon anyway and that's one of the reasons why lum berry e-killer is good.
  13. Pokémon Trainer R

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    Indeed, neither Giratina nor Terrakion are Extreme Killer Arceus counters for the reasons you mentioned.
  14. polop

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    You definetly copied and pasted that post, I'm 100% sure of it lol. Eh if your paranoid about Will-O-Wisp missing you could just run Roar on Steelceus and Gira-a and call it a day -_-. Physically Defensive Gira-a also doesn't get 2HKOed by Lum Berry Shadow Claw lol (40.16% - 47.32%), you'd need sr + 2 layers of spikes to gurantee the 2HKO, although this technically does back up my next point.

    A lot of ubers don't have many counters lol, they have "checks" XD.

    NO JUST NO. V-Create + DD, nullifies the speed stat boost, only making you prone to revenge kill, while its definetly an option on Rayquaza, its about as terrible as using Air Ballon on Shedinja to get through spikes O_o. Earthquake still manages a OHKO on standard steelceus, and will OHKO wierd versions using maximum defense + max HP after two layers of spikes.

    What, are you certain your using Soul Dew, it prevents those 2HKOes you know, although maximizing defense is a bit superflous IMO.

    Specs Modest Water Spout vs 252/0 Latias@ 1 Calm Mind:(21.98% - 25.82%)
    Specs Modest Water Spout vs 252 / 252 + natured Latias: (24.73% - 29.12%)
    Specs Modest Water Ice Beam vs 252 / 252 + natured Latias: (41.76% - 49.45%)

    The maximized defense calcs were just to show that if Latias wanted to she could tank those moves.

    I think Ditto is a bit overated tbh, its honestly just.... wierd. It can revenge kill everything but most of the time I'm against it the move Ditto's going to use is so obvious, that I can confidently switch into a resist, knowing that it probably is holding choice scarf. Although I ironically did have trouble with one holding lefties O_O, but that was more to it getting freeze hax then what not. It's probably just hyped up a lot now and the hype will probably die down soon lol.
  15. Pokémon Trainer R

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    I indeed copied and pasted that post... but the person who originally posted that message was also myself :)

    And yeah, using Roar/Dragon Tail/Whirlwind on Arceus is definitely a lot more reliable than trying to burn it (potentially twice) with a highly inaccurate move. By relying on the move Will-O-Wisp to stop Arceus, one is already essentially limiting their chances of winning most battles down to 75%, or 56% if the opponent's Arceus holds a Lum Berry. And it is virtually impossible for any trainer to make their way high up on the ladder and maintain their own position there if even the slightest bit of bad luck could make them lose a battle against even people who are far lower on the ladder (and therefore resulting in the loss of a significant number of points).

    Not really. I personally know of a certain top-level trainer (he is one of, if not the best DW Ubers battler ever) who uses a Ditto in his main team, and got to #1 on the old DW Ubers ladder on the Pokémon Online server with around 1720 points. He claims that his Ditto, along with his Extreme Killer Arceus is the best Pokémon in his team. The fact that one of the very best DW Ubers trainers thinks that the Ditto in his team is on the same level as his own Extreme Killer Arceus of all Pokémon is something which I believe speaks volumes about the usefulness of Ditto in the Übers tier.
  16. calze6

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    More lati twins means more jirachis as well, as it is one of lati@'s primary counters. The new kyurems look like awesome stallbreakers and I look forward to trying them
  17. polop

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    You realize I'm googling that now to find out who your alts are right O_O.

    You know just as well as I do about how terrible the ladder is, its hardly an accurate estimation for determining stuff (I'm assuming the fate of the wifi ladder is the same as the dream world ladder, correct me if I'm wrong sorry). I don't doubt that the person your referring to is skilled but you can't help but feel that ditto is out of place. It doesn't provide synergy, its scouting skills are possibly the best out of all mons in the game (it doesn't get the ability to find the item though...), its horrifically predictable, it completely shuts down some smash pass teams, its hold item is almost always set, it lacks true counters and checks but in a sense every pokemon counters and checks it. That is why I used the term weird and not something with negative connotation :P. Its THAT unique.

    The only mon I find comparable to it as Wobbufet, how are these blobs similar? HO / any type of offensive teams require a free slot to use it, often which they can't spare. <- Yes this prose is awkward don't judge me
  18. Pokémon Trainer R

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    Yes, and that's fine. I completely don't mind that.

    The ladder is indeed "terrible"... up until you get to around the top 10 people on it, when you have people like Sheetanshu (the Ditto user I was talking about), Alex Walls, Waddupdue, and of course, myself. And I was mainly referring to the way you said Ditto was "overrated"... when I don't believe it actually is, as all of its advantages that you mentioned are actually huge compared to the disadvantages. In fact, its ability to serve as a revenge-killer against pretty much any user of Swords Dance, Dragon Dance and Shell Smash already makes it one of the best Pokémon ever.
  19. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    I've been experimenting with teams and stuff and of course with Latias. It is very noticeable that Latias and most Steel-types form a very good combo. I wanted to try Latias + Heatran but Heatran is kinda bad now that Taunt sucks with Dragon Tail everywhere. So i decided to go with Jirachi + Latias. I used Jirachi to WishPass and U-Turn to keep the momentum with the usual Iron Head. This really hasn't let me down yet.

    Oh and Poppy's Giratina-O set is so amazing. I've been using it in tandem with my Latias + rachi coreand its been working wonders for me with Deo-S lead. The three of them paired with a revenge killer form a team by themselves and are able to take on most (if not all threats) with ease. All I need to do is just predict in certain cases such as when a Kyurem-W pops up. Its still quite easy to check with Jirachi in rain. Giratina also helps me take on Excadrill which is nice. Another thing which I've noticed is a lot of teams are really weak to strong physical attackers like DD / SD Quaza, especially those packing Dragon-type moves. For some reason , balance seems to be really popular now which can be taken advantage of by brute offensive play.

    Oh and fuck these Thunder Wave Kyogres really - _ -
  20. Electrolyte

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    I've seen a ton of ScarfYogres and have even used one myself. It has a great surprise factor as a lead; though with the prevalence of Lati@s it's losing it's usefulness.

    I must attest to how well non-weather Tentacruel is doing for me; especially against Rain teams. Toxic Spikes is a really really useful move on teams without spinners (and believe me it's not hard to find a team like that). Extreme Killer Arceus and especially Mewtwo are heavily crippled by it, and with the conjunction of Protect and Black Sludge+Rain Dish healing, I can stall the opponent all day. It can even tank Kyurem-W's non-choiced Draco Meteor and live to tell the tale, something not many non-steel types can do. Toxic throws a big middle finger at Giratina-O, though you must be wary of Dragon Tail.
  21. locoghoul

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    ScarfOgre is easy to deal with. CM versions and Specs are trickier imo.

    I've seen quite a number now of ppl using Growth Shaymin-S. If switched on Groudon, it can break havoc as a +2 Air Slash fucking hurts. Flying is such a better attack type in Ubers when compared to OU (ask Ho-Oh) you can even go mono with a set like Sub/Leech Seed/Growth/Air Slash using Lefties or Lum.
  22. Urwurstnightmare

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    I really hope Kyogre doesn't become useless this metagame with the advent of Latias. Kyogre is my favorite poke and I still want to be able to use one. I might think of putting Kyurem-W as my Latias counter since TTar really isn't very good for my team. Though maybe Kyogre has hope with the advent of Kyurem-w. Rain is going to become even more powerful this metagame, so maybe running Kyogre won't be a bad idea after all.
  23. EspeonX

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    Kyogre won't become useless. I just hope that people use TWave + Lum Berry as it is quite a good set, because it somewhat cripples Latias and gives Palkia issues, who would otherwise take Water Spout with ease. I can't tell you how many times I have TWaved Latias as it switches in to take an expected Water Spout. Actually beats any Darkrai lead (though I have like 5 ways to check Darkrai on my team, despite running TWave + Lum) like ScarfOgre, but has other utility as well.

    Rain is, of course, powerful like it has been. Kyurem-W can't counter Latias, as it takes a chunk from +0 Dragon Pulse, btw =) It is certainly a decent check, I agree.
  24. Splendiferous

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    Twave kyogre is an excellent set especially since everything that switches into kyogre, except ferro, hates getting paralysed (latias/os, palkia, grassceus, dialga). I've been using a set with twave/cm/surf/ice beam and it can even beat ferro easily after it takes some initial damage from switching around earlygame.
  25. EspeonX

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    Yeah, I've run a set like that, but TWave/Thunder/Surf/Ice Beam. It does cause grief to special sweepers.

    Anyways, what is this Tailwind Kyurem-W and Reshiram core I've been hearing about?

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