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CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 2 -(Main Type Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 5, 2011.

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  1. Marioaddict


    Sep 8, 2010
    I agree with the thought of steel typing. It has many resistances, making your opponent likely to switch out, and 3 weaknesses, making it easy to predict what they will send in. ghost type works in much the same way: it pretty much WILL force out a fighting type pokemon, and the opponent (from what I've observed, which isn't a lot) usually will switch in a dark type. Either of these would be a good primary type choice.
  2. Not Scicky

    Not Scicky

    Jun 30, 2007
    Ghost also has the advantage of getting STAB SE on Reinculus and many other Trick Room users/pokemon, which can otherwise be a dead stop to certain teams.
  3. gamerdna223


    Dec 29, 2010
    I would say something like Steel/Grass, Steel/Ground or Grass/Ghost. Those are all good momentum types and Steel/Grass and Steel/Ground, as we've already seen with Steelix, Ferrothorn and Excadrill, are great type combos. Grass/Ghost seems interesting, and has 5 weaknesses and 4 resistances, along with 2 immunities, is an OK type for momentum.
  4. darkchicken


    Jan 30, 2009
    I'd probably go for Grass.

    It resists Ground and Water, both very common, and of its four weaknesses (Fire, Flying, Bug, Poison), three of them are very easy to see coming. Fire could be addressed with a secondary typing if necessary, but I think it can be pretty easy to tell what the opponent will do based on the team preview.

    EDIT: I forgot Ice. This is slightly more problematic than Fire, but can still be predicted around. Remember, we WANT to give this thing common, but foreseeable weaknesses.
  5. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 12, 2009
    I'm throwing my full support behind Flying as the main typing choice. We've established that Momentum should involve a balance of offensive and defensive prowess. Here are just some of the key attributes that the Flying type has to offer this particular project that are very important in succeeding:

    • Flying is a great neutral offensive typing. It is only resisted by three types: Electric, Rock, and Steel. Electric types are few and far between, with the most common being Voltos, Zapdos, and perhaps Jolteon. Tyranitar is one of the few Rock types to worry about and actually has a Flying resist (Terrakion, for example, is neutral). Steels are indeed prevalent, but this can be worked around later on through moves and secondary typings.
    • Flying has decent SE coverage this generation. It's not going to hit 1000 things super effectively, but hitting Fighting, Grass, and Bug types are pretty valuable. It's niche hitting, but very useful.
    • Flying has key resistances and immunities. Resisting Fighting is awesome in this generation. Being immune to Ground attacks is even better. Resisting Grass and Bug also has huge merits. It's not like Steel, which can resist over half of the types, but that many resistances are not necessary. We should be looking for key resistances, similar to Breloom and Lati@s. We don't want to turn this Pokemon into a pivot.
    • Flying is immune to Spikes and TSpikes. No one wants a SR weakness, sure. However, no one can deny how incredibly important it is to be completely immune to Spikes in an era where Ferrothorn is the #1 Pokemon. Spikes are just as common, if not more common, than SR is. Toxic Spikes are also the main "attack" of Stall teams, which allows Momentum to affect both offensive and defensive teams. Don't forget this tidbit, too: one layer of SR and one layer of Spikes, very common to get down, equals 25% damage too!
    There are many reasons why Flying is cool, but if we look at just these three examples, they match exactly what Momentum should be aiming for: a semi-offensive Pokemon capable of hitting many things with its STAB while forcing switches thanks to its typing. It needs key resistances, not just "a great number". Resisting Steel is cool and all, but it's not 100% necessary. Meanwhile, being completely immune to Spikes is an excellent advantage for a Pokemon that wishes to switch in once or twice during the match.

    I like Grass as my second choice, although I do not like the offensive coverage that Grass has or how Fire and Bug hit it for Super Effective damage. The last thing we need is to switch in CAP1 and get hit Super Effectively by a random U-Turn, losing almost all momentum.

    Ghost is an okay alternative, as being immune to Fighting is cool. However, it doesn't boast many other important resists (except I suppose Bug) while having relatively poor offensive coverage (Dark types are more prevalent than Rock or Electric types).

    Steel is a bad choice for this Pokemon. Unless we're making this thing like a pivot, where it can come in on many resistances and force things out as a result, I don't see the need for this. Not to mention that Steel is terrible offensively.
  6. chum breath

    chum breath

    Feb 25, 2011

    For this reason many conkledurr and machamp come packing payback. Other than that I do see ghost as a good option offensively aswell, being resisted by only dark and steel (and normal is immune to it but lets face it, unless your using arceus, normal is not a popular type after the downfall of blissey, with most normals lurking within the depths of NU). However my backing goes largely to grass. With both strengths and resistances to both ground and water and resistant to electric, it can force a switch on many major threats. I am also fond of Dragon with handy resistances and only two weaknesses, and its stab damages much of the game for neutral damage (bar steel).
  7. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    But what about ice?

    Nearly every special attacker in the game is going to be carrying a coverage HP of either fire or ice, at least in my experience, unless they already have it in their primary movepool. This gives the opponent too big of a spectrum of things to do to a Grass Type, which is my primary reason I dislike that option. The only type to resist both Fire and Ice is Fire itself, which I oppose making a dual type because 1) It gives weaknesses to Stealth Rocks and Rock Type moves, 2) It loses its resistances to Ground and Water, which is basically the reason we want it in the first place, and 3) It wouldn't have access to many momentum moves logically.
  8. zarator

    zarator ^_^
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 12, 2008
    I agree with the people who said immunities should be our primary concern. You do not need a gazillon of resistances to come in and force momentum (read: steel). An immunity to a common type like Ground or Fighting is much more important than resisting 5-8 types. In a generation where Landorus can easily 2HKO even the likes of Impish Breloom without any prior setup, you need immunities more than anything else - especially on a sweeper (and for reasons I already voiced out I think this thing should be more offensive than defensive).

    Now, the main choices here should probably be Flying and Ghost. They pack huge immunities to the most common attacking types thrown around (Ground and Fighting), while holding good STABs (especially Flying). Now, the main choice is whether we want our mon to suffer Stealth Rock or Spikes (note: the ability poll will be even more influential towards this point, but we are not supposed to poll jump). Personally, I'd rather go for Flying. Not only it resist Fighting (so we catch 2 birds with one stone), from my experience I found Spikes to be almost more common than Stealth Rock nowadays, due to the ubiquitous Ferrothorn. Plus, the reasons listed by Darkslay are good, too.
    Don't get me wrong, Ghost is still a great choice. I only think Flying is probably better.

    Now, to address the other types nominated here:
    1)Steel: an immunity to Poison is completely trivial besides Toxic Spikes (which are probably the less threatening hazards as far as we are concerned with this concept). The point about immunities>resistances has already been mentioned.
    2)Grass: among the ways to keep momentum, certainly being weak to U-turn is not the best one. I never saw a Grass Pokémon creating momentum besides Pokémon who resort to much more than simply their Grass-type (Breloom, Whimsicott, Shaymin-S).
    3)Ground: An immunity to Electric is certainly not bad, but not as good as Fighting or Ground. My only concern is that Ground STAB, while good, is not the type of STAB which easily creates momentum, since Earthquake is easily nullified by any levitating/Flying Pokémon (whereas Flying is resisted only by the frail electrics, and the weak-to-Fighting Rock and Steel-types)
    4)Dragon: If you are to create momentum, you don't use moves like Draco Meteor and Outrage. Period. They are great moves in themselves, but they do everything BUT creating momentum.
    5)Water: Decent choices, but too few resistances (and 0 immunities) to come on. If even stuff like Milotic struggle to come in unscathed this generation, probably we should rethink water as a good defensive type. (although I'll admit it has good STABs for gaining momentum)
    6) Ice: Just no. It can't come in on ANYTHING, SR weak, Fighting weak... Good STAB is everything it has going for it.

    My 2 cents.
  9. Unlimited Breadsticks

    Unlimited Breadsticks

    Sep 26, 2009
    Honestly, Ghost and its plethora of game-changing immunities seems like one of the best possible options for a Pokemon built to help you gain momentum. A few people have mentioned it being good for forcing out Conk and stopping spinners in their tracks (eh heh heh). It seems like the best primary type to force bigger threats out and start turning things in your favor.
  10. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 22, 2008
    Funny thing is, when I saw that this won, I was thinking we already did this with Kitsunoh. Ha ha ha.

    Down to brasstacks. Ghost is what we're looking for here. Blocking Rapid Spin is the crux of a momentum shift for both Stall and Offense, as it forces more your opponent to keep taking indirect damage while you initiate your own plan of action, while your momentum stealer is free to do as it pleases.

    Steel seems good in foresight because of its resistances, but its established dominance as a defensive typing makes its weaknesses too common, not to mention it forces a really poor STAB into the equation.
  11. iRamen


    May 10, 2010
    how bout poison? an uncommon and unopopular choice. w/ cap it might give poison a little moment to shine. Poison comes with a handful of resistance. But of course it is going to need a secondary type that gives it a good STAB, maybe rock, fighting, ground?
  12. Tayla


    Sep 4, 2008
    Flying would definently be a great primary typing. Like other users have said, complete immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, as well as Ground attacks, is a huge boon. While Steel typing has many resistances, what good are they when many OU Pokemon are capable of using Earthquake? Ground is pretty much the best offensive typing in the game, and for our Momentum Pokemon to have a weakness to it is pretty glaring.

    Flying has KEY resistances to Grass, Bug, and most importantly Fighting. Its STAB is also excellently neutral, with only three types resisting it, and no immunities (like our Ghost type would have).
  13. Unlimited Breadsticks

    Unlimited Breadsticks

    Sep 26, 2009
    Hang on, what about Bug? It might be weak to rocks, but it's also got the two essential resists we're looking for, not to mention STAB U-turn. Not to get ahead of the subject at hand, but there are definitely ways to mitigate the hazard damage.
  14. Erick


    Mar 5, 2011
    It's important that this Pokemon can switch in easily, I think that most of the types mentioned so far are good for that. Flying and Ghost have great immunities, Steel has a lot of resistances, and Water and Dragon both have only two weaknesses yet four useful resistances. I'm a bit iffy on Grass, It definitely has useful resistances, but it also has a plethora of weaknesses that can not only make it a bit harder to switch in but also make it more difficult to maintain momentum, since your opponent has more options than it would with a different type. Still, this can be solved with appropriate stats, secondary typing, and movepool. Breloom, a Grass type, was one of the most common examples used in the concept discussion thread of a Pokemon able to create momentum, mainly because of its STAB Mach Punch, high attack, and access to Spore allow it to force the opponent into an uncomfortable situation, while Breloom usually could keep doing what you wanted.

    In my experience, the most common attacking types are Ground (obvious), Fighting, and Dragon, followed by Ice, Rock (also a very bad weakness to have because of Stealth Rock), Fire, and Water. The only types not weak to any of these are Water, Ghost, and Fighting. It doesn't have to be any of these types for it to have ample opportunities to switch in, but these are the best. Out of them, I think Ghost is the best, as it also has two great immunities.

    With additional respect to hazards, Steel is also good for its resistance to Stealth Rock and immunity to Toxic Spikes. Flying is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, but is weak to Stealth Rock, although I don't think that's too big of a deal so long as the Pokemon doesn't end up 4x weak to Rock. For your own hazards, Ghost spinblocks, further limiting your opponent's options.

    On the offensive side, Water is great, hitting three common types super effectively and is one of only five types not resisted by Steel. Fighting is great too, as it hits five types super effectively, although it is also resisted by five types, so it might not be as good at forcing what your opponent will switch in. Dragon and Ground would also be great, but I fear that they might make this Pokemon too offensive rather than a Pokemon who forces your opponents hand and keeps things going your way (other than just sweeping). On the other hand, they make it very easy to tell what your opponent is most likely to switch in on an expected STAB attack: Steel and Flying, respectively.
  15. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    May 28, 2010
    I believe that whatever typing CAP 1 has, it cannot be beaten by Gliscor, since if it is worse than the best momentum gainer this metagame has right now, it will never be any good.

    Therefore I am leaning towards Water as the primary typing for CAP 1. Water has always been a good type, and Suicune, Vaporeon, and Milotic all see use in this metagame.

    However, I would love to create a dual typed water CAP that can work. Maybe Water/Ground to help with the fall of Swampert? Maybe Water/Fire simply because it is the only type Water has never been paired with.
  16. Chameleon


    Jan 18, 2010
    I think it is important to resist attacks commonly used alongside each other on a Pokemon. For example, Ice and Water attacks are often seen on the same Pokemon, as are Dark and Fighting or Rock and Ground. A type which resists and is weak to certain attack combos like these should be adept at forcing switches and luring predictable counters.

    I think Ground fills this role well. It is weak to water, ice, and grass - all of which are predictable due to relatively poor distribution on those who lack STAB. The electric, rock, and bug resists are also decent defensive bases.

    Other options are flying and ghost, for which a lot of good points have been made earlier in the thread. Grass is also okay because of its good resistances and varied weaknesses - good for having counters and forcing switches (being vague for conciseness and to not restate too much)

    I'm iffy about Steel. The poison immunity and slew of resistances is nice, but being weak to common auxillary attacks - ground and fighting - makes defending against many non-choice sweepers difficult without massive BSTs. We also have to compete with Scizor, the current master of slow U-turns, and Metagross and Heatran, two hybrid offensive/defense 'mons with high overall stats.
  17. kalamadude


    May 19, 2010
    I'm going to throw my support behind Ghost and Grass.

    Ghost I think embodies a lot of ideas of Momentum. It has immunities to two types, one of them extremely common. It has very few, but very obvious weaknesses (plenty of Fighting types can set up on Dark attacks and Normal types are immune to Ghost, giving very favorable potential team synergy). In addition, it has immunity to Rapid Spin which is a huge momentum-controller. A lot of teams put tons of focus on their Spinner (whether they be a stall team trying to win a double stall battle or an offensive team with Volcorona). A Ghost is very frequently a complete dead-stop to almost every spinner there is. Not only do the opponents waste a turn spinning but they frequently cannot do anything at all in return and thus lose a second turn switching out. Yes, Ghost doesn't have many resistances but the immunities and obvious weaknesses combine to make a very useful momentum-changer.

    Grass is a whole other thing. With no immunities and no dynamite full-stop momentum shifting like spinblocking, Grass gets its kicks from fun resistances. Resistances to water and especially ground are huge boons in this weather-filled metagame (look at Virizion). Their weaknesses can be both limited and turned into predictable 4x weaknesses with a clever secondary type. Finally, while it might not have too much offensive momentum, Grass types, as they are uncommon, can frequently find themselves faced with something that can't hit them super effectively (though this is changing with all the HP Fire anti-Ferrothorn pokes). This buys you a free turn where you can do whatever you wish (this is poll-jumping, but Leech Seed and the various status powders give Grass types great flexibility in messing up the opponent's switch-in and further gaining momentum).
  18. Niched


    Mar 3, 2009
    Steel's been done, and being weak to fire, Fighting and Ground leaves you open to lots of stuff you should beat. Grass would be an interesting starting point, but I support Ghost as the primary typing for this CAP, because not only does it stop Fighting cold, but it also functions as a spinblocker, keeping your hazards and defensive momentum alive. Ghost also comes with all kinds of movepool tricks.
  19. Tayla


    Sep 4, 2008
    To you water guys, keep in mind some Pokemon do have an immunity to Water. Both Water Absorb and Storm Drain make Water moves useless. Though only Vaporeon and Jellicent really pose any kind of threat in OU, if you play in DW (not sure how this works with CAP) Suicune also benefits from Water Absorb, plus it can set up in your face. Nothing like breaking your momentum than restoring another Pokemon's HP. But, other than that, Water's offense typing is excellent. Being susceptible to all three hazards is a shame though.
  20. AlphaJolt


    Jan 14, 2010
    I think Ghost would be an awesome typing for previous reasoning that I will not repeat. I don't like Grass as much because even if it does have some nice resistances (Ground, Water, Electric, and Grass) it comes with a billion weaknesses (Fire, Bug, Poison, Flying, and Ice). Fire and Ice are bad weaknesses to have, Poison isn't seen that much, Flying is semi-common, but a weakness to U-Turn can be deadly (just ask Celebi), and if anything will cause it to loose momentum for the team.

    I want to backup Ground as another option. It resists Stealth Rock which is good, and it gives an Electric immunity. While not as good as Fighting (which is why I prefer Ghost), its still a nice immunity to have. It also resists U-Turn (then again so does Ghost). Even if it can be easy to predict, Earthquake is always a nice STAB. You just can't fire off EQs all the time, for the same reason you can't do that with Draco Meteor/Outrage.
  21. nardd


    Sep 5, 2006
    Based on resistances and immunities, I would go for ghost, flying, or bug. All three give would be great to switch into a fighting type attack (though most have some sort of secondary move you would have to predict like stone edge or payback) and all three have predictable weaknesses that limit your opponent's ways to hurt you and give you momentum.

    If we do center this thing around switching in on a resistance or an immunity, we need to take other moves into consideration that common attackers have. If I send in a parasect to resist that close combat, I need some way to make them switch out rather than get nailed by a stone edge. Flying types and ghosts are similar, with stone edge and pursuit/payback being something commonly paired with fighting attacks in general.

    I feel like entry hazards can be dealt with in other ways than primary typing and shouldn't be as much of a concern for this vote.
  22. ryik7


    Dec 25, 2010
    this is kinda funny, were all saying random types already.

    I agree with common opinion: steel has some sort of multiplier (keep in mind x.5 is a multiplier) for almost every type, making it very manipulative-able, alternatively, i like ghosties, (for example) I remember gengar, he would be the ultimate counter for my accuracy blissey since I couldn't hit him with mud slap or toxic, you also can't hit him with seismic toss making him irritating, forcing a switch (ghost/steel+levitate... no, no, no, this is only primary typing)
  23. SupremeDirt


    Apr 15, 2009
    I'm going to throw my weight behind Bug. Fighting and Ground resistances are always great. Also, bug is only weak to Rock, Fire, and Flying. Few Pokémon carry multiples of these types, allowing quite easy predictions.
  24. cco


    Oct 9, 2010
    Well, since the ultimate goal of this CAP's typing is to force opponents to make Predictable moves, I'm going to have to join the club which suggests that Flying is the way to go with this CAP's primary typing. Thanks to the immunity to Ground, which contains Earthquake, the most popular move in the game. In addition, Flying provides a Fighting resistance. With the huge popularity of Fighting types this Generation, Flying lets our CAP snatch momentum in that fashion, forcing Fighting types to abandon their stab. Flying also gives our poke an immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes Not to mention that the only Priority move which hits Flying for super effective damage is Ice Shard, so hypothetically, our CAP could be untouchable, depending on the route we take. The weakness to Stealth Rock is an unfortunate downside, but we can work around this with typing.
  25. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Sep 30, 2010
    Like many people have said, I think Flying would be a great, as well as Ghost and Grass. All three have useful resistances and/or immunities. Grass especially I think would work well, as not only does it have useful resistances, but it also has many weaknesses. When it is paired with a second type, this will probably turn into fewer weaknesses, but quite possible with at least 1 double weakness. Having a double weakness can actually help make the opponent more predictable.

    I also think Poison could be a decent choice. It has nice resistances, and while it has only a few weaknesses, they include an important Ground one, which, once again, can help make the opponent predictable. Also the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes is nice.
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