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CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 2 -(Main Type Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 5, 2011.

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  1. Lady Salamence

    Lady Salamence
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    Aug 4, 2010
    Going for Dragon and Fighting.

    Dragon and Fighting both have 2 weaknesses, and both of their weaknesses are uncommon, except for Dragon's Dragon weakness, which can be outdone as well.

    Both have pretty good resistances, especially common types.

    While these 2 types have no immunities, a second typing could change that.

    I'm tired, so no huge post, but I hope I got my point across.
  2. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 1, 2007
    After reading through the thread so far, I decided to throw my support towards Flying and Ghost. Both types have immunities towards some of the most commonly used attacks in the metagame (Ground and Fighting respectably). While both typing have their merits I like to bring special attention towards Flying. It's natural immunity towards Spikes and Toxic Spikes as well as resisting U-turn and being neutral towards Pursuit well not taking secondary typing into account is very important in my point of view. This pokemon will probably be switching around a lot in order to fulfill it's goal. Having less entry hazards to worry and/or taking less damage from U-turn/Pursuit would be a big boon towards CAP1's success. Now I know that Stealth Rock hurts Flying types bad but that can be fix through second typing and/or ability.
  3. Thorhammer


    Jun 18, 2008
    Both Dragon and Ice are common attacking types.

    Not that that's a problem. As discussed earlier, having weaknesses to some common attacking types can guide the opponent into making a particular action. Fighting would be a poor choice for that reason.
  4. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 30, 2009
    I feel there are 2 ways to take this.

    Since reachzero has not mentioned whether we're taking an offensive or a defensive approach, I'd back 2 different typings, one for offensive, and one for defensive.

    Offensive: Fighting

    Fighting is one of the best typings of the game, with an SR resistance, and its psychic weakness is only taken advantage of by Reuniclus, but on an offensive momentum gainer, it is bound to have a way to keep on the move and not lose momentum. Fighting type synergizes well with pretty much every non-ground type, meaning we get a lot of leeway with our secondary typing as well. Fighting also has defensive possibilities, meaning that it is a good choice for both cases.


    Steel is one of the best types in the game, boasting access to 11 resistances and 1 immunity. If we wish to garner defensive momentum, we require Pokemon with several resistances, and a Steel typing is the best way to do this. As a means of controlling our CAP, it saddles it with one very poor STAB, so that our CAP can focus on its main job, and not turn into a bulky sweeper. However, a steel type is not impossible offensively, as demonstrated by Scizor and Excadrill, but they use it mainly for the defensive properties of the steel type. For this reason, I would support the steel type as well, as it it is obviously useful defensively, but it can also aid a Pokemon offensively by virtue of the resistances it provides.
  5. capefeather

    capefeather toot
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    Apr 26, 2009
    I think that CAP 1 should focus on responding to the big threats and being threatened by common Pokémon.

    Going to the responding first, I eliminated types that would keel over to STABs from the biggest threats, which left me with three types. Then I realized that the "threatened" part was largely solved between these three types. So now I present the possible primary types that I would like on this CAP:

    Ground - This type gets props mainly for its Electric immunity. As well, it is weak against both Grass-types and Water-types - Ferrothorn/Jellicent, anyone? Ground is a very good defensive type and it's easy to see why; it funnels the opponent into a defensive strategy rather than an offensive one. It also compels rain teams to resort to their predictable Water STAB.

    Ghost and Psychic - These two largely serve the same purpose, and IMO are even better than Ground. Resisting Fighting is an obvious selling point for both of them, and both tend to attract Ghost-types, Tyranitar and Scizor to an extent as well. All of these are common but not as huge threats. Ghost has a sort of edge for being able to block Rapid Spin.

    I think that it's rather clear that I'm preferring Ghost, but any of these three types would be great on CAP 1.
  6. Rising_Dusk

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 27, 2009
    I'm going to chime in my thoughts on the most popular of what has been presented so far, hopefully to detail how each is attuned to our concept assessment and concept in general.

    First, let me recap some things from concept assessment that I think are crucial to the success of CAP1 from a typing perspective.

    • We're not going to be sweeping
    • Good neutral attacking coverage is a good thing for the concept
    • CAP1 needs a few serious weaknesses that opponents can use to their advantage and will make their playing against CAP1 more predictable
    • CAP1 needs solid switch-ins against key opposing threats that pretty much can't touch CAP1. This means we need to address Pokemon, not types.
    Ultimately, these come together to tell me that it's ok to have a weakness to a common attacking type so long as it's made up for by resistances and the capacity to check other common threats. Pokemon like Thundurus and Lati@s are tricky to check in the current metagame, but we shouldn't bind ourselves to checking them or something. If we do, then the playtest metagame will simply see less of those Pokemon and more of what beats CAP1; we don't want that, as that would be a repeat of the issues we encountered long ago in Arghonaut's playtest. Instead, we want CAP1's typing to check an entire swath of Pokemon in the metagame, many of which will continue to be used even in spite of CAP1's presence because they're so good and so varied.

    #1: Ghost

    For this reason, I think that Ghost is the strongest type that we can pick. Ghost has a key immunity to Fighting and turns around and can hit Psychic-types for super effective damage. Fighting-type Pokemon (Conkeldurr, Scrafty, Virizion, Terrakion, etc.) are everywhere in BW OU, and Psychic-types (Reuniclus, Sigilyph, etc.) have become very popular as well. In this manner, Ghost enables CAP1 to have many relatively safe switch-ins into many common Pokemon and turn around to threaten them. The fact that Ghost also enables CAP1 to be a spinblocker is icing on the cake, as Rapid Spin, when used successfully, is one of the best ways for an opponent to steal the momentum of a match against a Spike-stacking team. As a last note, Ghost also has respectable neutral attacking coverage with the only types resisting it being Normal-, Steel-, and Dark-types.

    #2: Steel

    Some people have put down Steel, but remember, friends, this is a Dragon's metagame once more. We're no longer playing in DPP where Salamence, Lati@s, and Garchomp are banned. No, now all of these threats are back, and more have taken hold (Hydreigon, Kyurem, etc.). That crucial Dragon-type resistance gives CAP1 great switch-ins into the quintessential Dragon-types of this generation, and also packs handy resistances to a plethora of other things like Psychic, Dark, Grass, Rock, and so forth. The clutch weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, and Ground are a good place to start for the opponent having a predictable response to CAP1. We would need to cover at least one of these weaknesses with the secondary typing or ability, but that's neither here nor there. For a primary typing, this is strong, and would be a great asset to the CAP. Lastly, the neutral attacking coverage for Steel is surprisingly not bad, being resisted only by Fire-, Water, Electric-, and Steel-types.

    #3: Flying

    Flying is a great type for this CAP as well, though not as great as the above two. Flying looks great on paper for its immunity to Ground-type attacks, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, but unfortunately lacks a ton of very safe switch-ins. The only key resistances Flying has are to Fighting-type attacks and Ground-type attacks. Unfortunately, these attacks are always supplemented by a coverage move that beats up Flying-types, such as Rock-type attacks (Terrakion / Landorus / Fighting-types). As nice as the typing seems for those handy immunities, it's really lacking in safe switch-ins for CAP1 to take advantage of and gain momentum, and pretty much forces our secondary typing to resist Rock-type attacks (and thus that typing doesn't actually help with new switch-ins). I don't think this is really the best of ideas, but it's certainly far better than other suggestions like Bug or Ice. Flying also picks up excellent neutral coverage in the current metagame, and actually hits for neutral or better against lots of popular 'mons.

    #4: Grass

    Grass is cool, but not that amazing here. This goes to the complete opposite end of the spectrum for its resistance to Water-, Electric-, Ground-, and Grass-type attacks. Those are a lot of key types, and its weaknesses to Fire- and Ice-type attacks really aren't that bad. The Fire-type weakness isn't crippling considering that most of the Pokemon whose attacks CAP1 resists will at best be packing HPFire (which sucks). Additionally, the Ice-type weakness isn't too bad because almost nothing actually picks up STAB on their Ice Beams. With enough bulk we could easily overcome that. Grass-types gets a solid switch-in to Rotom-W, for instance, as well as to defensive threats like Ferrothorn and Jellicent. Outside of that, though, Grass really doesn't have a lot going for it. It doesn't have a huge swath of Pokemon it can switch into alone, and pretty much sucks offensively with Steel-, Dragon-, Flying-, Fire-, Bug-, Grass-, and Poison-types resisting the STAB. I don't really think this is the way to go for CAP1, but I've listed it because it's still not awful. After Grass, though, there's really nothing that's been discussed so far or exists that I'm particularly drawn to.

    Hopefully this post will have given you guys something to work with for typing!
  7. Sextus scion of crazy

    Sextus scion of crazy

    Dec 1, 2009
    I have a few suggestions

    Steel: Steel's numerous resistances, immunity to sandstorm, and resistance to stealth rock make it easy for a steel-type to switch in and stop many sweepers. However, its weakness to ground and fighting type moves limit this type's overall effectiveness.

    Psychic: While this choice may seem strange, It could very well be effective. Psychic's resistances to fighting and psychic moves means that it can switch in to numerous fighting pokemon and into reuniclus. But unlike steel, psychic actually provides offensive coverage, hitting the fighting types it switches into hard.

    Bug: Outside of forretress and scizor, bug types aren't really thought of as pokemon that can repeatedly switch into attacks. But, the bug typing does have a few redeeming qualities. It has its resistances to two common attacking types, ground and fighting. It also is super effective against psychic, threatening Reuniclus. What holds this type back the most is its crippling weakness to rock, a common partner to ground and fighting.
  8. pkmn-taicho321


    Jun 23, 2007
    I'm going to throw myself out on a limb here and suggest Psychic. Perhaps one types that is most overlooked, especially in BW were fighting has become a more common mono-type. I actually haven't seem the useage stats but I seem to remember Mienshao and Conkelderr (good god these american name sounds awful -_-') being pretty high up there in useage as well as Keldeo.

    With this in mind Psychic is a pretty decent STAB missing only a few opinions for nueral coverage, and it keeps this CAP from being too offensively minded, as Pyschic only score Super Effective hits one Fighting and Poison (sorry if that's wrong, I'm a little rust on the details and meta)

    It's not a terrible defensive type either, scoring a very useful Fighting resistance and only two weaknesses, neither of which are hugely popular attacking types on the big name sweepers (except for tyranitar)

    Besides that I think that Water is a great type too. One of the best defensive typings in my opinion.
  9. Admiral_Stalfos19


    Mar 25, 2008
    I feel Bug needs to be promoted a bit more as a primary type, so I'm going to take a stab at it.

    Key Features of Bug

    Bug resists two of the most common attacking types whilst not being weak to the other two: I think that these types are the most common attacking types in this metagame: Fighting, Ground, Ice and Electric... in THAT order (anyone that disagrees, please keep BoltBeam in mind). Bug resists the former two, as does Flying. But Bug has the advantage of not being weak to the last two while Flying is. And you can't really keep momentum that well when you've got two common weaknesses against you.

    Bug has STAB on U-Turn, which greatly improves its power: Slow U-Turns have been suggested by quite a few people as a good means of gaining momentum, and to help make the most of a slow U-Turn, its gonna need some power. Just ask Scizor. If you wanted to match that power WITHOUT Bug STAB, you'd need something like 220 Base Attack Stat, and that's just ludicrous!

    Bug is only weak against ONE common attacking type: And last time I checked, Rock wasn't that common an attacking type, and neither was Flying. In fact, Flying only really shines in usage as a STAB move... on stuff like Staraptor, Togekiss and Braivary. As for Rock, it's usually used only either as STAB or on Ground or Fighting guys, and it was only a big type to watch out for thanks entirely to Stealth Rock, which I'll cover below.

    Bug won't be as badly hampered by Stealth Rock as you might think: Firstly, Stealth Rock has gone down in usage quite a bit in this generation. Secondly, there are lots of SR weak Pokemon that still make the cut in OU. There's Gyarados, Zapdos, Volcarona, Chandelure, Scolipede in some cases, etc. etc. Maybe most of them ARE offensively geared, but Gyarados and Zapdos HAVE proved themselves able to be played defensively as well. Thirdly, even if the community has that much of a problem with it, there's still Fighting, Ground and Steel that we can slap on the end (preferably not the latter though, otherwise it'll end up like Scizor or Genesect...)
  10. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    Aug 16, 2007
    edit: @Bug or Flying-- Yes, there are many SR weak Pokemon in OU who succeed. Are any of them particularly good momentum/pivot Pokemon? No. Also Bug's only relevant resistances-- Fighting and Ground, could basically be treated as just 1 type offensively (largely overlapping in coverage), and there's a long list of OU Pokemon who resist both, so being able to resist those 2 in particular is nothing special.

    I agree with many posts-- whatever we pick, it's got to be something with lots of relevant resistances. No matter what kind of awesome initiative-snatching strategy we create for the pokemon, it won't be a real momentum changer unless it can switch into battle frequently (Ie. this is where Flygon succeeds and Breloom fails).

    Having some weaknesses is ok if we're thinking this Pokemon will be very fast (most likely necessary for a momentum-builder). The primary concern is having many relevant resistances/immunities.

    Second most relevant is having access to truly threatening offensive coverage-- to keep the momentum, it's got to pose a genuine threat to the enemy, at least to a degree. True we can give the Pokemon extremely threatening support moves like Spore, but ONLY CONSIDERING TYPE, we want something that has good potential offensive abilities. It doesn't matter how easily Crobat can switch into battle if all it has are easily walled poison and flying attacks.


    Ground comes across as a very appealing type for both of the above reasons.
    a) Immunity to Electricity and resistance to Rock are both very relevant
    b) Immunity to Thunder Wave is always welcome for a speedy threatening Pokemon
    c) Resistance to Stealth Rock is always great for a Pokemon likely to be moving in and out of battle often.
    d) Ground has terrific type coverage in combination with a multitude of other types.

    A) Only 2 relevant resistances
    B) is a sub-par choice for a Choice Pokemon (getting locked into EQ, ew . . .)
    C) We have to try hard to avoid rebuilding Flygon or Landlos . . .

    Dragon is another big standout
    A) Resistances to Water, Grass, Fire and Electric are all extremely useful and relevant
    B) Fantastic Offensive power is obvious

    A) Erhm . . . it's Dragon . . . it's pretty boring choice in OU . . . we all know it's the best type.
    B) We'd have to be careful to avoid rebuilding Flygon . . .

    Fire would actually be a really potentially potent choice.
    A) Very relevant resistances
    B) Good offensively

    A) SR Weak . . . pretty big downfall unfortunately . . . I'd only really be behind Fire if we were going to give it Magic Guard or something . . . :S
    B) No "Near-perfect 2 move coverage" except for shitty Un-STAB Dragon moves

    Ghost obviously has some stuff going for it
    A) 2 very nice immunities and a resistance to bug
    B) Fair offensive abilities (pretty "average" in OU)

    A) A fast, offensive ghost that can switch easily in and out of battle, is threatening, and can change the momentum of the game . . . why are we retrying to rebuild Gengar?


    A) Threatening offensive abilities? lol
  11. NeoSeth


    Jun 21, 2010
    1. Ghost. I support this typing the most, as it provides great defensive momentum with it's immunities to Normal and (more importantly) Fighting. It also nails other Ghost-types super-effectively, plus important Psychic-types like Randorusu (Or whatever it's English name is). Ghost resists Poison and Grass. While the poison resistance isn't a big deal, resisting Grass provides set-up on Breloom and possibly Nattorei. On the offensive side, Ghost packs solid neutral coverage, which is something that Steel lacks. In terms of weaknesses, Ghost is weak to Ghost and Dark. These few weaknesses force your opponent to react in a very predictable manner, letting you keep your momentum going. I think a secondary typing in this case would have to focus more on adding some key weaknesses, along with a few more resistances, but that's besides the point. Spin Blocking is also VERY important on this Pokemon, as losing hazards is disastrous for momentum. Not only that, but switching in on an attempted spin and threatening the opponent could cause a switch, which equals a free turn, and...

    2 Dragon Dragon is a solid defensive typing, resisting Grass, Water, Fire and Electric. It's weak to only Dragon and Ice, so your opponent's response will be VERY predictable. Offensively, only one type resists Dragon, so again, your opponent is forced down a narrow road. This typing is possibly the easiest to use to force your opponent's hand, since the possible responses are so narrow. Luring in Nattorei or Skarmory is an easy way to net Magnezone a free kill, thus putting you ahead of the opponent. Or, forcing your opponent to attack you with their own Dragon attacks could allow Nattorei to come in and set up hazards. STAB Dragon attacks are a fairly solid way of deterring other Dragons from setting up, I would think. If I was voting for a full typing, I'd say Ghost/Dragon, but as it is, I support Dragon less than Ghost, since Spinblocking is such a big asset.

    3. Grass. With resistances to Grass, Water, Electric and Ground, Grass is a solid typing this gen. Resisting the STAB moves of the JelliThorn combo is especially nice. In the way of weaknesses, Grass is weak to Poison, Flying, Fire, Ice and Bug. Fire is the big weakness, as this Pokemon can lure in Pokemon like Heatran, Blaziken, Infernape and that fire-ape thing, allowing potential set-up by other Pokemon of your team. The Bug weakness, I'm not sure about, since I can't remember the last time a Bug-type threatened me. As for Ice-type attacks, you can bring in your own bulky-Water or Steel for set up. The Grass-typing also grants you immunity to Leech Seed, which is a sizable boon against Breloom, Nattorei and Parasect. Offensively, Grass does have a lot of types that like to switch in, namely Steel and Dragon. However, luring these types in to resist your STAB allows other Pokemon to set up, i.e Nattorei setting up hazards on an Outrage.

    With these typings, I'm noticing that CAP 1 could fit in very well with the Jellithorn combo, so I'm predicting that defensive teams will get a boon from this Pokemon in the metagame, unless we opt for a much more offensive CAP than we seem to be.
  12. Thorhammer


    Jun 18, 2008
    I don't think we should assume this CAP has to be offensive in nature.
  13. doominic77


    Jul 3, 2010
    2 Best Types IMO:

    1.) Steel - Steel has many resistances and a handy immunity to Toxic. Like many of you said, Momentum is being able switch in on a pokemon and force it out. Steel does just that. Although not resisting the common fighting type moves this could be solved by a secondary type or an ability.

    2.)Bug - Bug, like said by Admiral Stalfos, has many helpful resistances and is not weak to any common attack types. Although it has a weakness to Stealth Rock this can be solved with a secondary type.

    Why I don't think Ghost would be a good type:

    Ghost - When you look at ghost you see a useful Fighting immunity and a strong STAB but if you look past that it doesn't look that good. It doesn't have the helpful resistances that Steel has. You can't switch into much resisted and Dark attacks are a major attacking type. For these reasons i don't think Ghost would be a good type.
  14. bubbly


    Dec 4, 2009
    Backing Ghost for primary. Originally was going to go with Grass before remembering the rubbish offensive STAB.

    I don't really agree with you here Chou. I haven't seen much support at all for this being a fast offensive pokemon, mostly balanced or defensive with at least a reasonable amount of bulk.

    One thing about a Ghost type, when its acting as a Rapid Spin blocker, is that it almost perfectly fulfils the momentum concept. If you have a decent array of hazards, then you have the momentum. Your opponent will often need to get rid of your hazard advantage to get back into the match, but to do that he needs to kill your Ghost.

    This is a great example of creating long term momentum just through the CAP's typing, as it forces the opponent to play in a certain way to respond to your hazards.
  15. ungulateman


    Apr 11, 2009
    Ghost and Bug look like the most promising candidates to me.

    My problem with Steel is that:

    - the CAP would resist Pursuit.
    - the CAP would resist Stealth Rock.

    I think everyone can agree that most of the CAPs already have these attributes. We should be trying something different, in my opinion. (inb4 "New generation, none of this applies, herp".)

    Ghost gives the CAP fantastic support capabilities, thanks to blocking Rapid Spin, and (not to poll-jump!) likely access to Will-O-Wisp. It's also a decent neutral coverage type, as RD pointed out.

    Bug is interesting due to its odd typing. It has multiple great resistances (Fighting and Ground in particular), several weaknesses which give us a base to counter CAP1 (Fire and Rock), and excellent neutral coverage - while Fighting-types resist it, it also hits the ubiquitous Psychic-types super-effectively. Almost guaranteed access to U-Turn helps as well.

    Grass has a few too many weaknesses to make it work without a fantastic back-up type, which would make it either a rebuild of Torterra or Ferrothorn.

    Ground grants beneficial bonuses, but we've already created a plethora of CAPs that are Ground-types. Their roles don't apply in the 5th Generation, but the sam eprinciple stands. Ground also has two very common weaknesses and has pretty medicore neutral coverage (although great super-effective coverage).
  16. andalite191


    Aug 12, 2010
    I think that two major types that could completely turn the tide of a battle are Steel and Dragon. They both have good resistances, and could switch in with minimal damage from attacks and entry hazards.
  17. Zebstrika


    Oct 3, 2010
    #1: Bug
    A fast, powerful U-turn can almost guarantee some momentum against certain pokemon. Take Genesect, for example. It can come in, threaten a switch with its awesome coverage and U-turn to the counter. Even if the opponent doesn't switch, you still deal heavy damage with U-turn (especially with a Download boost) which creates quick momentum in the sense that you are now one pokemon ahead.

    Defensively, Bug has very useful resistances to Fighting, Grass, and Ground, but those pokemon must watch out as those pokemon frequently carry Rock moves for coverage. An ability or second type can help with the Stealth Rock weakness.

    #2: Flying
    Offensively, Flying is only resisted by three types. Those are Electric, Rock and Steel. However, Flying pairs very well with Fighting or Water. When it is paired with Fighting, the combination is only resisted by four pokemon: Zapdos, Thundurus, Rotom (Original and Fan forms), and Emolga. When Flying is used with Water, that duo is only resisted by 3 pokemon (not including Dialga and Zekrom): Empoleon, Lanturn (who may have Water Absorb), and Wash Rotom.
    Due to this, Flying can achieve great neutral coverage, and it is also easy to fit U-turn into the flavor.

    Defensively, Flying also has those resistances I said Bug had. Fighting, in my opinion the most centralizing type currently in the metagame, Ground, with the consistently powerful and devastating Earthquake and because Flying has an immunity it bypasses Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and Grass, used by common pokemon like Breloom, Ferrothorn and Virizion. Flying also has a resistance to Bug, which is somewhat common, but with Team Preview, U-turn, which used to be a very common Bug typed move, has become less useful. However, like Bug, Flying has that weakness to Stealth Rock which can stack up with a lot of switching like a momentum pokemon is supposed to do. Again, this can be covered with a second (actually likely primary) type or an ability. Another option that is easy to put in the flavor is Roost, and the CAP will not be frail so Roost is a good option. Flying also has weaknesses to two other common and strong attacking types, Electric and Ice. Pairing Flying with Ground can remove the Electric and Rock weaknesses, but magnify the Ice weakness and probably make the pokemon similar to Gliscor. Steel can remove the Rock and Ice weaknesses, while the Electric weakness remains. Steel also makes Flying neutral against Fighting, which is a crucial resistance.

    #3: Ghost
    Offensively, Ghost is pretty average. It has good neutral coverage, as Normal is very rare now with Fighting types everywhere, which leaves Dark and Steel as the only remaining resists. All three of those types are weak to Fighting, making it a great type to pair Ghost with. However, the lack of particularly strong moves (outside of Shadow Force) hurts. We are capable of giving it a somewhat stronger signature move.

    Defensively, Ghost alone has two immunities. All other types have either zero or one. One of those immunities is to Fighting, but Ghost types must watch out for coverage moves. Therefore, a secondary typing of Steel or Dark would be good. Dark and Ghost would fail to lure out particular attacks (but it still lures out the strongest attacks so it can be somewhat predictable) for teammates to switch in to, making it somewhat inferior to Steel, which is especially good because it lures out pretty much any type that can even hit it neutrally, making Steel very predictable. The other immunity is to Normal, and the most notable move is Rapid Spin.

    #4: Steel
    Offensively, Steel is often outclassed by Fighting, which is super effective on Rock and Ice just like Steel, but also 3 other types. Steel fails to have widely distributed moves with a base power above 80, which isn't helping (Clefable, Metagross and Jirachi being the exceptions with either Meteor Mash or Doom Desire). Steel doesn't have any good two move coverage, and especially not much that can't be done with Fighting. There is one thing Steel has, flavorwise, and that is access to Volt Switch.

    Defensively is where Steel shines. Opponents will strain to hit Steel even neutrally, which can make their attacks quite predictable. Steel mainly draws in Fighting or Ground attacks, and a lot of pokemon have the respective type so they can be immune, or Steel lures Fire, Water or Electric attacks, and there are somewhat common abilities that can benefit from those attacks. Using Steel's 11 resistances and one immunity, those pokemon have an easy time synergizing with other pokemon. Steel even has a resistance to Stealth Rock and Pursuit and an immunity to Toxic Spikes. Steel often has access to Spikes and Thunder Wave which are nice support moves.

    #5: Fire
    Offensively, Fire is decent, being super effective on four types and not very effective on four others. Its damage is slightly increased by Dry Skin while not doing anything (good) against Flash Fire. Two of the four types Fire is super effective against are Steel and Grass, which are quite common in this metagame. Water is the main resistor, as Water types are often pretty bulky. Fire doesn't pair well with too many types. Outside of typing, Fire has some strong moves to spam, including Flare Blitz, Fire Blast and Flamethrower.

    Defensively, Fire has three common weaknesses. One of them is to Stealth Rock, and we probably should do something about that. The other two weaknesses are to Ground and Water. The former is very easy to switch in to, and the latter as well, but not with nearly as many pokemon. Fire has 5 resistances, which is second only to Steel, and three of those resistances are to Fire, Ice and Grass.

    @Erick Sorry, fixed.
  18. Erick


    Mar 5, 2011
    Ghost and Fighting both hit Fighting neutrally. I'm guessing you meant Steel where I bolded?

    Edit: Cool.
  19. masterful


    Aug 7, 2010
    Steel, with its ample resistances and very common weaknesses would be the perfect typing for a momentum poke
  20. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Apr 18, 2008
    Resisting those two hazards (not to mention Toxic Spikes for a throw in) are obviously great attributes for one who is built upon the concept of momentum. Getting hit by those on a regular basis makes it hard for you to take control of a match commandingly. You'd have to create sets with such factors in mind. I think this CAP should have the characteristics that would either give it a healthy amount of resistances/immunties or a few critical/quality ones. And just because we have already used these characteristics before, it doesn't mean we can't use them again (unlike matters such as concepts). We can't base all our decisions on what was or wasn't used in the past.

    Steel is a great type to consider. I have my support mainly for Ghost however since the typing brings some nifty immunities and its weak to only two attacking types (Dark and itself). However, that does leave it weak to some certain dangerous attacks.

    Though it's probably not the best for the concept, Electric, to me, is a reliable type. The highlight of course is the single weakness to Ground moves (though it's a serious one, not to mention the type alone doesn't block the entry hazards or some support/status moves). I'm mainly just interested in the type however, so I feel Ghost should be the considered one.
  21. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck actual cannibal
    is a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 25, 2010
    I, too, support Ghost because, as already stated of its spinblocking and other abilities.
    I'd like to point out that Choice Pursuit-trapping can net your team momentum with the opponent locked into a weak move. However, I'd like to caution that we don't make a pokemon that is basically Rotom-A but with its old typing.
    Steel could be a good option, but to me it has too many common weaknesses -- Fire, Fighting, Ground, etc. and we can't plan on a secondary typing to cure these. (Heatproof Skarmory, anyone?) Ghost only has two weaknesses and neither of them have especially powerful attacks that couldn't be taken advantage of by the rest of your team.
    Also, it resists U-turn. Just like to throw that out there.
  22. Zebstrika


    Oct 3, 2010
    I considered that, but Electric simply doesn't have enough to switch in to. Sure, it lures in one type that probably about 20-30% of OU has an immunity to, and it gets a powerful STAB Volt Switch, but Electric just doesn't have good synergy when it comes to taking attacks for teammates.
  23. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    May 28, 2010
    To everyone who has supported Dragon as the typing: If this CAP is going to create defensive momentum, how is this going to be any different from a bulky Garchomp or Mence? And by that I mean a Pokemon that is almost always better suited in their offensive role.

    I get it. Dragon has great resistances. However, it actually suffers in STAB moves that are good for a momentum creator. Outrage and Draco Meteor are not good moves to use on a Pokemon that is supposed to create momentum. Dragon Tail going second is hardly going to help. That leaves Dragon Claw, which, while not awful, is not going to be doing a ton if the CAP doesn't have great attack. And if it did have great attack, it would simply run outrage (which we can't let happen, since the goal is momentum not sweeping).

    tl;dr - If dragon is chosen, then you are committing to giving this CAP poor offensive stats, making its great STAB irrelevant.
  24. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jun 22, 2008
    I'm not sure who's trying to do that. I looked in the OP and didn't find anything about a fast and offensive Pokemon.

    It did mention something with offensive/defensive potential to reverse the momentum of the game, though, so that means it can go either way, or both ways. The first thing to remember about momentum is that you first gain it by switching in. Ghosts have an easier time doing this than most types because they're immune to Fighting, which is basically everywhere.

    They are also immune to Rapid Spin, meaning that if we get a bulky Ghost, we can keep Ferrothorn/Skarmory's hazards up, and absolutely troll the opponent's momentum. I don't think having a fast and flimsy Ghost is a great way to gain and keep momentum because it will just as easily lose it by switching into the wrong attack and dying, just like Gengar.

    Shadow Ball may be the best thing Ghosts have going for them, but that doesn't mean they're guaranteed to suck offensively. After all, they can have awesome Sp. Att, good coverage, etc. We also don't know what the secondary type is going to be either, so we don't need to worry too much about primary STAB unless it's notoriously poor.

    We also don't need to go completely the other way and make it a Dragon type, making it almost guaranteed to be just another offensive threat, or just another repeat of grounds we've already ventured instead of the momentum-stealer we want it to be. Draco Meteor and Outrage are their best attacks and do completely the opposite of steal momentum. This is not a good idea.
  25. Sambobz


    Feb 25, 2011
    quick question, where do we take into account abilities like heatproof and levitate in the type choosing process?
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