-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 6a - Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Fuzznip
- Start date
- Status
I'm gonna throw Simple into the mix. This lets us:
Use Agility (Assumed common move) etc. and suffer less of a Speed Drawback in Paralysis, allowing for Cap11 to continue in the pair and not become a dead weight. Also means that although Cap11 will be fine in it's own right, and would be able to use Defense + Sp.Def boosting moves as well. In addition, it won't get outsped to baton passing speed (Might happen when paralysed), meaning it might pull of one better pass. Useful, since Togekiss and Flinching work better with a faster pass, meaning this mon isn't required to become a T-Waver.
The ability to use powerful Nasty Plot boosts, making it a better reciever than most, making Cap11 better to use with Togekiss than any other reciever.
Focusses on only thew main problem Status (Bar Freeze) Meaning that it will not have as much overlap.
Lets the duo work ok alone, but better together.
Use Agility (Assumed common move) etc. and suffer less of a Speed Drawback in Paralysis, allowing for Cap11 to continue in the pair and not become a dead weight. Also means that although Cap11 will be fine in it's own right, and would be able to use Defense + Sp.Def boosting moves as well. In addition, it won't get outsped to baton passing speed (Might happen when paralysed), meaning it might pull of one better pass. Useful, since Togekiss and Flinching work better with a faster pass, meaning this mon isn't required to become a T-Waver.
The ability to use powerful Nasty Plot boosts, making it a better reciever than most, making Cap11 better to use with Togekiss than any other reciever.
Focusses on only thew main problem Status (Bar Freeze) Meaning that it will not have as much overlap.
Lets the duo work ok alone, but better together.
Of all the abilities suggested thus far, I support Limber and Special Guts the most.
As another user said, one's first instinct upon encountering Togekiss is to TWave it, stopping it from ParaFlinching one's own Pokemon. Limber blocks TWave and prevents Paralysis without completely absorbing Electric attacks and becoming Gyarados's perfect partner.
Special Guts, however, would allow CAP11 to take advantage of all four common statuses instead of just preventing one. The Special Attack boost gained would free up Effort Values that could be used in other stats while maintaining the ability to net specific KO's.
And to those proposing Motor Drive or Volt Absorb: No. They guarentee that CAP11 would be Gyarados's perfect partner as opposed to Togekiss's. If you're worried about Electric-type attacks, make one of the other 4 Pokemon on your team a Ground-type.
As another user said, one's first instinct upon encountering Togekiss is to TWave it, stopping it from ParaFlinching one's own Pokemon. Limber blocks TWave and prevents Paralysis without completely absorbing Electric attacks and becoming Gyarados's perfect partner.
Special Guts, however, would allow CAP11 to take advantage of all four common statuses instead of just preventing one. The Special Attack boost gained would free up Effort Values that could be used in other stats while maintaining the ability to net specific KO's.
And to those proposing Motor Drive or Volt Absorb: No. They guarentee that CAP11 would be Gyarados's perfect partner as opposed to Togekiss's. If you're worried about Electric-type attacks, make one of the other 4 Pokemon on your team a Ground-type.
I believe Simple would be broken. Give it Swords Dane, it dances on the switch, and BAM complete sweep of everything.
I believe Simple will actually be overpowered. Think about it. CAP 11 will already have decent attack, special attack, and speed, judging from the stat spread poll. This means that after a single boost, it becomes an offensive juggernaut.Think of BP Gliscor passing to this pokemon - it will OHKO every single pokemon after a +2/+2 boost, I'm very sure, and BP Gliscor is actually not that hard to pull off. (Not to mention using Ninjask (lol).)
I dunno about being broken. After all, our best STAB has base 90 and we've only got 100-105 base satk. Well, I mean, I suppose there is Fail Blast, but that should never be your primary sweeping move. With LO you can do some damage, but either you're losing 22% per turn or still have the 25% Para rate. Specs+Burn could do some damage, but switching into a burn would still take effort.
I also oppose "Special Guts". We should *always* avoid custom abilities unless absolutely necessary, and I really don't see this one as being necessary.
I really like Thick fat/ Motor drive because they allow CAP 11 to cover its bases as far as Togekiss's weaknesses. (if only it was a rock type...) I really like the idea of CAP 11 being able to pass Motor drive boosts to Togekiss. It also lets you play mind games as to what ability it has, as your opponent won't want to thunderbolt or ice beam until it sees what ability your packing.
Except Jolteon, Zapdos, and to a somewhat lesser extent Rotom-A are serious problems for us. If Rising_Dusk's spread wins, Starmie and Scarftar remain threats to the team, and there's also Metagross, Scizor, and Weavile.
However, much for a similar reason that Jolteon makes a good partner for Gyarados and Electivire doesn't work nearly as well, CaP11 doesn't really have anything on the bulky waters that plague Gyarados. I mean, Jolteon switches in on Suicune/Vaporeon's HP Electric and forces them out. What does CaP11 do against them?
This assumes Swords Dance is allowwed - And I get a feeling it won't, as it doesn't really help Togekiss. Also, what would it switch in on? Don't forget Choice Scarf users, Priority, entry hazards and status other than paralysis will easily wear Cap11 down.
And we are sure this thing is going to get high powered physical attacks because....?
Brick Break and Sucker Punch I can see, but I doubt things like Earthquake and 100/100 power/accuracy moves will be picked, due to the fact this is going to be a special attacker, and will probably not need to create new moves to do its job, and EQ is useless against Togekiss's major counters, Zapdos + Rotom.
Moves which act like flavor (Close Combat is generally on a fighting type) aren't all good. -2/-2 defenses leaves Cap11 open to priority, or having to baton pass -1 defenses to another mon.
My choice would be Limber. The reasons for such have really already been discussed; Togekiss is horribly crippled by paralysis, keeping it from abusing Serene Grace to the fullest, and leaving it disgustingly vulnerable to threats it otherwise outpaces, who can set up on the switch or fire off powerful attacks. With Limber, CAP11 will be able to take advantage of Togekiss's status trouble and switch in for free on, say, Celebi or Jirachi.
Another potential ability for CAP11 could be Immunity, for the same reasons that apply to Limber. Togekiss hates poison nearly as much as paralysis, due to the drastically hindered sweeping time it inflicts. Pokemon who can take a special attack and retaliate with Toxic (such as Blissey, Zapdos and Skarmory) will enjoy the opportunity to make Togekiss cry. With Immunity, CAP11 can switch in on Toxic and threaten many of the offenders. An immunity to Toxic Spikes is also a nice bonus for dealing with stall teams.
This might be poll-jumping a little (if it is, I'll remove this bit), but I like the idea of CAP11 possessing both Immunity AND Limber. Choosing the status you want to be protected against can be used for mind games with your opponent: does he REALLY want to try and paralyze Togekiss when Limber CAP11 is waiting in the wings? Should he try poisoning it instead and risk an Immunity switch? I feel it's an interesting dynamic that allows you to cover certain threats, but not all of them.
Another potential ability for CAP11 could be Immunity, for the same reasons that apply to Limber. Togekiss hates poison nearly as much as paralysis, due to the drastically hindered sweeping time it inflicts. Pokemon who can take a special attack and retaliate with Toxic (such as Blissey, Zapdos and Skarmory) will enjoy the opportunity to make Togekiss cry. With Immunity, CAP11 can switch in on Toxic and threaten many of the offenders. An immunity to Toxic Spikes is also a nice bonus for dealing with stall teams.
This might be poll-jumping a little (if it is, I'll remove this bit), but I like the idea of CAP11 possessing both Immunity AND Limber. Choosing the status you want to be protected against can be used for mind games with your opponent: does he REALLY want to try and paralyze Togekiss when Limber CAP11 is waiting in the wings? Should he try poisoning it instead and risk an Immunity switch? I feel it's an interesting dynamic that allows you to cover certain threats, but not all of them.
I just want to make it clear that I don't believe custom abilities are really important for this particular CAP. There are a handful of very useful abilities that increase the synergy between Togekiss and CAP 11, and I think the suggestion of custom abilities is kind of pushing it. Furthermore, the custom abilities already posted are seriously awful and I don't want to see any more awful custom abilities.
However, if you honestly think you have the perfect custom ability for CAP 11 that helps synergize it with Togekiss, private message me your idea first before posting. I'll let you post it if I approve of it (which really won't be likely, I can tell you that now). With that said, if I see any more custom abilities posted from this post forward (without any approval from me), they will be deleted without warning.
I'll be back later.
However, if you honestly think you have the perfect custom ability for CAP 11 that helps synergize it with Togekiss, private message me your idea first before posting. I'll let you post it if I approve of it (which really won't be likely, I can tell you that now). With that said, if I see any more custom abilities posted from this post forward (without any approval from me), they will be deleted without warning.
I'll be back later.
Forget Swords Dance for Simple, Bulk Up is required on the movepool so it would already have +2 Atk/+2 Def.
I support Limber primarily because it works for the typing (Hitmonlee being a Fighting Pokemon that already possesses the Ability) and deals with the paralysis issue effectively, and with all forms of paralysis.
For a more offensive ability I think Serene Grace could work. The Hax Couple would be complete! In all seriousness Serene Grace gives Force Palm a 60% paralysis rate and Dark Pulse 40% flinch. If CAP11 got Thunderbolt and Thunder they'd have 20 and 60% paralysis respectively.
Another possibility is Skill Link. Togekiss has trouble spreading around paralysis against Pokemon with Subs, and Skill Link would give STAB Arm Thrust a chance to break them down. CAP11 could also abuse it with Rock Blast to dispatch Zapdos or Bone Rush (ala Lucario if you need a justifcation) for SubTran and Jirachi.
I support Limber primarily because it works for the typing (Hitmonlee being a Fighting Pokemon that already possesses the Ability) and deals with the paralysis issue effectively, and with all forms of paralysis.
For a more offensive ability I think Serene Grace could work. The Hax Couple would be complete! In all seriousness Serene Grace gives Force Palm a 60% paralysis rate and Dark Pulse 40% flinch. If CAP11 got Thunderbolt and Thunder they'd have 20 and 60% paralysis respectively.
Another possibility is Skill Link. Togekiss has trouble spreading around paralysis against Pokemon with Subs, and Skill Link would give STAB Arm Thrust a chance to break them down. CAP11 could also abuse it with Rock Blast to dispatch Zapdos or Bone Rush (ala Lucario if you need a justifcation) for SubTran and Jirachi.
I would like to throw my support behind Limber.
This way the Cap can either come in on T-wave for free, Limber would "force" the Cap to be Togekiss' best-friend, taking the T-waves aimed at her.
I have to say NO to the Motor Drive/Volt Absorb abilities. It really would become Gyarados' best-friend, theoretically removing the user of the Electric-move like Jolteon or HP-Electric Vaporeon (if it used Motor Drive) and Physical walls that Gyarados has troubles getting past like Skarmory and Celebi (unlike Fail-vire), and opening up holes for Gyarados to sweep through.
And NO to Simple. Bibarel is a force to be reckoned with with only a few passes, imagine something with the stats to actually abuse it... yikes.
This way the Cap can either come in on T-wave for free, Limber would "force" the Cap to be Togekiss' best-friend, taking the T-waves aimed at her.
I have to say NO to the Motor Drive/Volt Absorb abilities. It really would become Gyarados' best-friend, theoretically removing the user of the Electric-move like Jolteon or HP-Electric Vaporeon (if it used Motor Drive) and Physical walls that Gyarados has troubles getting past like Skarmory and Celebi (unlike Fail-vire), and opening up holes for Gyarados to sweep through.
And NO to Simple. Bibarel is a force to be reckoned with with only a few passes, imagine something with the stats to actually abuse it... yikes.
Right now I'm leaning towards volt absorb.
CAP11 is tailored to take on the enemies that Togkiss cannot handle, but against the likes of jolteon, zapdos, and scarf rotom both take heavy damage before retaliating. Add to that the prospect of running a mixed sweeping nature that compromises our less than bulky defenses, and we need to be able to defeat the enemies listed. It will be tough to OHKO zapdos and even jolteon, while they can take huge chunks out of our health in return.
Volt absorb gives opponents second thoughts about zapping togekiss for fear of healing CAP11 and forces rotom, jolteon, and most zapdos to use much weaker moves against the CAP. It also provides an immunity to Thunder Wave. Our unwanted "perfect resistance synergy" with rotom is wasted too.
I'm against motor drive because I fear creating the next electivire who trades raw power for good STABs. Gyarados would also much prefer this ability to volt absorb.
CAP11 is tailored to take on the enemies that Togkiss cannot handle, but against the likes of jolteon, zapdos, and scarf rotom both take heavy damage before retaliating. Add to that the prospect of running a mixed sweeping nature that compromises our less than bulky defenses, and we need to be able to defeat the enemies listed. It will be tough to OHKO zapdos and even jolteon, while they can take huge chunks out of our health in return.
Volt absorb gives opponents second thoughts about zapping togekiss for fear of healing CAP11 and forces rotom, jolteon, and most zapdos to use much weaker moves against the CAP. It also provides an immunity to Thunder Wave. Our unwanted "perfect resistance synergy" with rotom is wasted too.
I'm against motor drive because I fear creating the next electivire who trades raw power for good STABs. Gyarados would also much prefer this ability to volt absorb.
Thinking about what it needs to do for Togekiss, a few things come to mind.
Thick Fat: Giving it some bulk against Ice type attacks obviously benefits the duo, without making it horribly unbalanced.
Limber/Guts/SpecialGuts/Synchronize: Rather obvious way of turning around status for the duo. I don't see any problem with them, but with Togekiss' access to Heal Bell, and our desire to not have this be a standalone Pokemon, i don't see them as neccesary for the role.
Thick Fat: Giving it some bulk against Ice type attacks obviously benefits the duo, without making it horribly unbalanced.
Limber/Guts/SpecialGuts/Synchronize: Rather obvious way of turning around status for the duo. I don't see any problem with them, but with Togekiss' access to Heal Bell, and our desire to not have this be a standalone Pokemon, i don't see them as neccesary for the role.
Synchronize is a cool option, and would help cover all status as opposed to just one, while not being overpowered.
An interesting option I was thinking of, probably not as the primary ability but as an interesting secondary option, was Unburden, which raises the pokemon's speed on use of a one-tme hold item. I think it could have some interesting options with Togekiss to deal with some of it's problems. For example, you give it a chople or wacan berry and switch in as Togekiss is being attacked with a fighting or electric attack, respectively, activate the berry and get a free speed boost, which it can either use or pass back. I think that would steer people away from the typical life orb attacker that CAPs are generally becoming, and help use berries to make it more customized to Togekiss's unique weaknesses.
Just my two cents.
Unburden's boost can't be passed.
There are two abilities I would like to add, in addition to the ones that are already being discussed.
1) Suction Cups. The reasoning behind this is simple. Togekiss does not get Taunt, so any attempt at Baton Pass Nasty Plot boosts to CAP11 is negated by any Pokemon with a simple phazing move. Suction Cups on CAP11 prevents this from happening.
A disadvantage is that this would, in addition to benefit Togekiss, greatly benefit Baton Pass teams in general.
2) Technician. CAP11 will likely have access to Vaccuum Wave and Faint Attack. With Technician, Vaccuum Wave becomes very powerful, and Faint Attack becomes stronger than Crunch. Technician also boosts other random possible moves, like Drain Punch and Charge Beam.
I currently like those two, Thick Fat, and Volt Absorb the most.
1) Suction Cups. The reasoning behind this is simple. Togekiss does not get Taunt, so any attempt at Baton Pass Nasty Plot boosts to CAP11 is negated by any Pokemon with a simple phazing move. Suction Cups on CAP11 prevents this from happening.
A disadvantage is that this would, in addition to benefit Togekiss, greatly benefit Baton Pass teams in general.
2) Technician. CAP11 will likely have access to Vaccuum Wave and Faint Attack. With Technician, Vaccuum Wave becomes very powerful, and Faint Attack becomes stronger than Crunch. Technician also boosts other random possible moves, like Drain Punch and Charge Beam.
I currently like those two, Thick Fat, and Volt Absorb the most.
Now that it's been brought up, Synchronize would be a wonderful choice. It's an ability that works with status, which is pretty much universally agreed upon so far, and it works great against Blissey trying to Thunder Wave or Toxic this CAP, which as a Special Attacker, is going to be it's greatest counter.
Plus, it's not as specialized as Motor Drive or another Electric specialized move.
It also creates a wecome change to the metagame. Finally a Special attacker that isn't completely stopped in it's tracks by Blissey, due to sheer stats, and Fighting STAB. At the same time, it isn't a complete Blissy killer, as Flamethrower and Ice Beam, Blissey's two common offensive moves, are not resisted, and Seismic Toss deals standard damage.
What makes status moves work beautifully with this pair is Togekiss's access to Heal Bell, giving CAP 11 benefits when you want them, but the ability to heal the stat away when the results of poisoning, burn, ect. becomes troublesome.
This also is perfect against Rotom, or Will o Wisp in general. As a Special attacker, the Attack cut of Burn is null and void, making Flame Orb a great option, and allowing CAP 11 to work as a Trick receiver.
Plus, it's not as specialized as Motor Drive or another Electric specialized move.
It also creates a wecome change to the metagame. Finally a Special attacker that isn't completely stopped in it's tracks by Blissey, due to sheer stats, and Fighting STAB. At the same time, it isn't a complete Blissy killer, as Flamethrower and Ice Beam, Blissey's two common offensive moves, are not resisted, and Seismic Toss deals standard damage.
What makes status moves work beautifully with this pair is Togekiss's access to Heal Bell, giving CAP 11 benefits when you want them, but the ability to heal the stat away when the results of poisoning, burn, ect. becomes troublesome.
This also is perfect against Rotom, or Will o Wisp in general. As a Special attacker, the Attack cut of Burn is null and void, making Flame Orb a great option, and allowing CAP 11 to work as a Trick receiver.
I don't like Synchronize. It only works once, and several of the opposing pokemon who would be using T-Wave/Toxic wouldn't be bothered: Blissey and Celebi have Natural Cure, for instance. Also, it's completely useless after the turn CAP11 is statused, whereas (Special) Guts and Limber/Immunity remain useful after absorbing a status ailment.
I don't see how Technician helps CAP11 partner with Togekiss better, though using Drain Punch as primary STAB is an interesting thought.
Suction Cups (or a more thematically appropriate copy) is a possibility, though it could very well shift CAP11 from being a 'kiss partner and to just being a recepient on BP teams (which probably wouldn't run 'kiss).
I also think any ability that absorbs electric attacks, i.e. Volt Absorb/Motor Drive, is a bad idea. It will turn CAP11 into a Gyarados partner, as he is much more worried about Electric attacks than 'kiss is, and CAP11 also resists Gyara's only other weakness (Rock). I really want to highlight this point, since making CAP11 immune to electric will almost certainly cause it to fail the concept and turn into a Gyarados partner. Keep in mind, of CAP11's two weaknesses, Flying is hardly ever used and Fighting is resisted by Gyara, who also lowers attack on the switch-in.
I don't see how Technician helps CAP11 partner with Togekiss better, though using Drain Punch as primary STAB is an interesting thought.
Suction Cups (or a more thematically appropriate copy) is a possibility, though it could very well shift CAP11 from being a 'kiss partner and to just being a recepient on BP teams (which probably wouldn't run 'kiss).
I also think any ability that absorbs electric attacks, i.e. Volt Absorb/Motor Drive, is a bad idea. It will turn CAP11 into a Gyarados partner, as he is much more worried about Electric attacks than 'kiss is, and CAP11 also resists Gyara's only other weakness (Rock). I really want to highlight this point, since making CAP11 immune to electric will almost certainly cause it to fail the concept and turn into a Gyarados partner. Keep in mind, of CAP11's two weaknesses, Flying is hardly ever used and Fighting is resisted by Gyara, who also lowers attack on the switch-in.
Rhys DeAnno
Slacking Off
I agree that Synchronize is the best way for the CAP to fight back against status. Togekiss is an interesting pokemon in that it is often attempting to paralyze things, and things often attempt to paralyze it. CAP 11 having Sync would help spread the paralysis that Togekiss loves, and it addition a Togekiss with Heal Bell could cure CAP 11 of the troublesome status. Synchronize also threatens Toxic users trying to stall out the bulky Togekiss, and partially protects CAP 11's Physical side from troublesome burns.
Motor Drive and Volt Absorb would indeed facilitate switching, but both abilities would make this CAP far too good a partner for the much more impressive Gyarados, taking Electric moves and Rock moves with ease and defeating Physical walls with its Special Attack.
Motor Drive and Volt Absorb would indeed facilitate switching, but both abilities would make this CAP far too good a partner for the much more impressive Gyarados, taking Electric moves and Rock moves with ease and defeating Physical walls with its Special Attack.
I would say any ability that would negate or cause a benefit from a status would be the best for this duo. That is Limber, Guts, Quick Feet (though not entirely needed because all the base stat suggestions were over 100 for speed), Immunity, Vital Spirit, or Synchronize.
Limber and Synchronize are the too I feel would be the best, as both can add really benefit. Limber gives some Paralysis immunity while still not favoring Gyarados as well, and Synchronize will, one, deter the use of Status moves, besides sleep, on the duo which could potentially screw over the other people. Similarly, Vital Spirit paired with Synchronize would deter all Status moves, until the opponent knows otherwise. But then both would cover all bases. Plus, Synchro-Bell can be come a very good strategy.
My back is behind Synchronize and Vital Spirit, with an edge to Limber.
Limber and Synchronize are the too I feel would be the best, as both can add really benefit. Limber gives some Paralysis immunity while still not favoring Gyarados as well, and Synchronize will, one, deter the use of Status moves, besides sleep, on the duo which could potentially screw over the other people. Similarly, Vital Spirit paired with Synchronize would deter all Status moves, until the opponent knows otherwise. But then both would cover all bases. Plus, Synchro-Bell can be come a very good strategy.
My back is behind Synchronize and Vital Spirit, with an edge to Limber.
- Status