CAP 11 CAP 11 - Stat and Movepool Limits

[Fuzznip]

This is where we will discuss CAP 11's stat and movepool limits.

Our CAP so far:

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate

Typing: Fighting/Dark

This is a new addition to the process of creating a Pokemon, so I strongly recommend that you read this entire OP to understand what is to be discussed in this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be specifically constrained by Stat Bias Limits; the other part will be explained below. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.
​

Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.
​

Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.
​

Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense.
​

An application for calculating the biases can be found here and the formulas themselves can be found here. For each individual bias, a named range will be specified by me at the end of this thread. These are the named ranges:

Below Average

A stat bias between 0-80
​

Average

A stat bias between 81-99
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Above Average

A stat bias between 100-149
​

High

A stat bias greater than or equal to 150
​

Base Stat Rating & Movepool Limits

The Base Stat Rating is simply the measurement of the overall "power-level" of the Pokemon's base stats. In the past, the Base Stat Total (BST) was used to measure the power of base statistics. BST is a very poor measurement for stat power, however, so the CAP project now uses Base Stat Rating (BSR) to determine the overall effectiveness of a Pokémon's base stats. The results are more useful and relevant to the relative power of a created Pokémon's stats.

The Base Stat Rating directly impacts the number of moves and Very Good Moves in a Pokemon's movepool. The higher BSR a Pokemon has, the smaller movepool and Very Good Movepool size it has. The BSR of a Pokémon is divided into 12 different categories, ranging from the exaggerated rating of Arceus and other Ubers to the awful rating of Pokémon like Unown and most baby Pokémon. A better description of these ratings can be found here. For the purposes of the movepool limitations linked to the BSR of Pokémon, only five of these categories are available as listed below. More details on what the Very Good Movepool of a Pokémon means can be found here. Below are the five categories along with what the movepool and Very Good Movepool size will be; examples are provided.

+----------------------------------------------+       +----------------------------------------------------------------+
|          Base Stats Rating                   |       |                        Movepool                                |
+---------------+-------+----------------------+       +---------------+-------------+----------+-----------------------+
| Description   | Limit | Examples             |       | Description   | Total Moves | VG Moves | Examples              |
+---------------+-------+----------------------+       +---------------+-------------+----------+-----------------------+
| Above Average | 250   | Spiritomb, Azumarill |  -->  | Fantastic     | 95          | 45       | Tyranitar, Togekiss   |
| Good          | 300   | Swampert, Gliscor    |  -->  | Excellent     | 85          | 40       | Sceptile, Swampert    |
| Very Good     | 350   | Infernape, Lucario   |  -->  | Very Good     | 75          | 35       | Mismagius, Steelix    |
| Excellent     | 400   | Mew, Heatran         |  -->  | Good          | 65          | 30       | Walrein, Heracross    |
| Fantastic     | 450   | Deoxys, Garchomp     |  -->  | Above Average | 55          | 25       | Jumpluff, Swellow     |
+---------------------+------------------------+       +---------------+-------------+----------+-----------------------+

At the end of this thread, I will be posting the ranges for Stat Biases, Base Stat Rating, Total Movepool Size, and Total Very Good Movepool Size, depending on the arguments presented and what I think would work best.

Because this is probably the most confusing part of the process, I really want everyone to be sure you understand what is supposed to be discussed. Read and re-read this thread if you're lost, or you can always PM me if you want me to explain it to you. Also, I urge you to read through this article as it explains everything about this topic pretty clearly.

It should be noted that this thread is NOT going to lead up to a poll. After a period of about a day or two, I will be deciding the limits that all stat spreads must conform to.

Rules:

• No poll jumping. We are only discussing Stat and Movepool Limits and nothing else. There should be absolutely no talk about specific stat spreads in this topic.
  

• No threadhogging. This is an open discussion and should not devolve into a back-and-forth between two people. This is something that can tend to happen at this point in the project a lot, so watch it.

• Don't get hung up on the same points. The discussion should remain fresh throughout the course of this thread, and you really shouldn't be posting the same arguments over and over.

This thread will probably close around 11 pm EST on July 18th. Have fun!

 

[Deck Knight]

ATL and resident Stats Zen Master here.

The fundamental things you need to understand about biases is how they affect Base Stats. The defenses are a bit more warpable because of limitations in the system to account for the general superiority of HP as a defensive stat, but you need to make a spread that's also appealing aesthetically.

Back on track, the most important thing about Physical/Special Sweepiness is Speed. Rank 5 (Good) Sweepiness for example and say, 110 Spe makes maximum Attack/SA of around 80 combined with the Speed. Rank 6 (Very Good) Raises the 80 Atk to 95 while maintaining that Speed, etc.

Since we want an offensive combo, it's important to consider the Speed you want to work around in your arguments. Defenses are more fungible. Basically just look at the examples in the linked thread.

Finally, since Stats impact movepool now, consider that the average of the four BSR ratings is usually going to be the Overall BSR rating that sets movepool limits. So Ratings of say 4/5/8/5 is going to have a BSR rating of 6 (Very Good) and the movepool will be restricted to 75 Moves and 35 VGM.

Just a little advice to help you all make arguments. Remember that even though ratings affect upper limits, you are arguing for a certain ranking (PS/PT/SS/ST), not a certain Base Stat (ex. 95 Atk/110 Spe).

 

[CRC]

I would say, due to the typing, that this pokemon could make a good partner with Rotom. To do that, however, would require the right stats.

Average HP - This is because it does not need enormous hit points to be able to take hits if the other stats work accordingly.

Above Average Attack - This would be on the higher end of above average as being a counterpart to Rotom would be easier to achieve with a higher base attack.

Above Average Defence - There are very few Pokemon in the OverUsed ladder with good defence stats, and too many with enormous special defenses. Good defense is the reason Skarmory pairs with Blissey.

Average Speed - Not horrible but not great. All this Pokemon needs, especially if it gets priority moves...

Below Average Special Attack - Its a fighting/dark pokemon. It does not need any special attack to be used well.

Below Average Special Defense - This Stat would need to be low to make sure this Pokemon does not become overpowered. This would allow it to have a weakness that is covered by many other Pokemon.


I think Stats similar to these would pair well with the various forms of Rotom, but truthfully they could pair well with many special attackers with good special defense.

Blissey would not be covered by this due to the fighting weakness. I find this to be good as Blissey doesn't need anything else.

Also, just as a side-note, if this Pokemon were to be given these stats and an instant recovery move, it would fill a unique niche in the metagame being able Attack relatively hard as well as be able to heal due to its defenses. It would be a great partner to other pokemon.

Another side note is that it would be a mistake to pair a pokemon with these general stats with swords dance or dragon dance as it would overpower.

And that app thing gave this:

• Physical Sweepiness - Rank 8
  ​
• Physical Tankiness - Rank 8
  ​
• Special Sweepiness - Rank 2
  ​
• Special Tankiness - Rank 2
  ​
• Offense/Defense Balance - -1.58
  ​
• Physical/Special Balance - 43.84
  ​
• Overall Rating - Rank 5
  ​

 

[familyguyman]

I feel we need to go balanced for a variety of reasons.

Firstly, we don't have great defensive synergy via typings. Togekiss can't handle all the special attacks even with dedicated sets and we should let something weak to Fighting have to take on the physical attacks. Therefore, high physical and special defense will be a must, buffered with high HP for sure.

Offensively, we have amazing STAB. Physically or Specially there are high BP, reliable moves. As such, we don't need mind blowing offenses. I recommend the balance to add flexibility, for example; Close Combat + Nasty Plot Pass for Dark Pulse + Aura Sphere. The important part is to avoid making a perfect partner for someone else; hence mild bias to physical create redundancy for Gyarados which helps lowers potential synergy. The same holds true for Gliscor and Skarmory. Zapdos might appreciate the help though so we have to tread carefully.

Finally, many of Togekiss' problematic opponents are varied. Physical Rotom, Blissey, Special Defense Zapdos all need different means to break them.


Therefore, I am proposing:

Physical Sweepiness - Rank 6
Physical Tankiness - Rank 6
Special Sweepiness - Rank 5
Special Tankiness - Rank 5

Overall Rating - Rank 6



Keep in mind Togekiss is:

Physical Sweepiness - Rank 3
Physical Tankiness - Rank 5
Special Sweepiness - Rank 6
Special Tankiness - Rank 7

Overall Rating - Rank 6

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I would say, due to the typing, that this pokemon could make a good partner with Rotom. To do that, however, would require the right stats.

There is a rules sticky in this forum; it mentions lurking a while before posting. This CAP is meant to be a Perfect Mate for Togekiss, not Rotom. Also, this thread is for suggesting Base Stat Ratings, not actual stats. Look at the OP for the right tools. I'm sorry if I sound rude here, but we must try to keep the discussion on track. I'm not ready to give biases and BSR yet; I would suggest a higher attack than Special Attack, in order to hit from both sides of the spectrum, but it's not essential.

 

[NARFNra]

I suggest we stay balanced, as other have suggested. As such, I think we should have slightly lower Special stats, but have them balanced enough to make Nasty Plot passing much more of a posibility. As such, I suggest something like:

Physical Sweepiness: Rank 5 (Good)
Physical Tankiness: Rank 6 (Very Good)
Special Sweepiness: Rank 5 (Good)
Special Tankiness: Rank 5 (Good)
-
Overall - Rank 6 (Very Good)

First of all, I believe that decent or speed or high attack, either one, can help this thing take down it's specially defensive opponents well enough and still work with Togekiss. Special attack was explained earlier. The Special tankiness and Physical tankiness are to allow it to switch in from Togekiss despite it's lack of resistances and take down the target, especially taking physical attacks aimed at it and turning them down.

I also agree with fammilyguyman that balancedness allows the CAP to help with the myraid of different things Togekiss dislikes.

As for the Gyarados thing, most attacks aimed at Gyarados are Special(strangely enough), and thus the lower Special Tankiness should at least offset the target.

NOTE: I also support familyguyman's BSR choices.

 

[Scoopapa]

Considering that Zapdos and Rotom are most commonly physically defensive, and Blissey will require only a decent attack STAT to beat, this partnership might benefit from a "Very Good" or "Excellent" Special Sweepiness. This preserves the awesome potential of Baton Passing Nasty Plot and using Vacuum Wave+dual STAB, as well. Special Fighting-types are pretty limited (Lucario, Fire starters) so going this route would also be very interesting.

 

[HouseFantastic]

I think I have a good understanding of what is being debated, thanks to Deck Knight's clarifying post.

Firstly, we don't have great defensive synergy via typings. Togekiss can't handle all the special attacks even with dedicated sets and we should let something weak to Fighting have to take on the physical attacks. Therefore, high physical and special defense will be a must, buffered with high HP for sure.

I disagree with this slightly. I think that we could maintain the notion that "The best defense is a good offense." While making CAP11 a glass cannon would be foolish, a mixed physical spread of biases might work.

To pair with Togekiss, I tried to take the numbers that her biases have (that data is graciously supported by familyguyman) and assign them differently, effectively mirroring Togekiss in certain aspects. The only adjustment I made is an improvement in the PT score, which still allows for an overall rank of 6 well under 350.

Phys sweep: rank 7: Excellent
Phys Tank: rank 4: Above Average
Spe Sweep: rank 6: Very Good
Spe Tank: rank 5: Good
Overall: rank 6: Very Good

I think rank 6 is necessary overall, because in order for the two to be an equal pair, these things need to be pretty equal. CAP11 can't be comparable to Mew and Heatran in terms of stats because then it would be a very imbalanced duo. Pretty straightforward.

With this spread, it is very easy for a maxed-out attack/spa EV to score 2HKOs on Defensive Rotom-forms with either Crunch and Dark Pulse, while a NP-boosted Dark Pulse would have a great chance at scoring a OHKO. This all depends on the exact stats, obviously, which are not in yet. The point is, we wanted the dark secondary typing to be able to take care of Rotom, and this stat spread can do so very effectively while still maintaining a symbiotic relationship with Togekiss.

Zapdos is another story. With these limits, most of the time, Zapdos will still be an effective counter for the duo. This is an acceptable drawback, given that no currently existing 'perfect' duo can counter every single pokemon in the OU metagame. However, if using a NP-boosted Dark Wave with a Life Orb or Choice Specs against a physically defensive Zapdos, it will probably scare it off, if not score a kill. I hope that this possibility alone should comfort some of the Zapdos-invoking doomspeakers.

PT being so low might be a scary idea, but its high sweeping scores should be the result a solid speed score with strong offenses. In other words, if CAP11 goes first against something like the Rotom forms, it ends up taking less hits. This also means, unfortunately, that CAP11 would not be able to take Thunder Waves in stride. However, the possibility for a low speed (and thus, less emphasis on avoiding thunder waves) does exist within a PS score of 7, which is why it's not higher. Also, in order to come up with these values, I entered an HP value that was higher than Togekiss's, and as Deck Knight said, HP is part of the reason why PT and ST are warpable. Add on to the idea that some very common physical attacking types (rock, fighting, dark, and ) are reduced by the typing that CAP11 has, and it becomes reasonable to lower the Physical Tanking ability in order to support Togekiss more efficiently with strong, mixed offensive capabilities.

The ST score should definitely be in the "good" range as we designed this pokemon to be able to handle thunderbolts from pokemon like Gengar and fight back with powerful dark moves. OHKOing gengar would hardly be an issue with a move like Sucker Punch that would hopefully be on the movelist, which circumvents Gengar's high speed, as well as Jolteon's. After having taken a thunderbolt's worth of damage, it could easily be healed off by a wish from Togekiss barring a critical hit or a negatively biased SpD nature (which would be one of the least smart things to happen)

Speaking of natures, it comes to mind that one stat should be notably lower than the rest, so that it becomes prudent to sacrifice that stat further for the sake of a beneficial nature. This is optimal because of the reduced loss of lowering an already low stat, while increasing a high one (for example, using a brave nature on Swampert is optimal in many cases). This is not possible with balanced biases.

Being balanced in stats would make the pokemon far too weak for its own good. Having a way to deal with zapdos, even in an unlikely situation, is a very advantageous prospect. Scoring 2HKOs or OHKOs on Rotom forms is a possibility that is best exploited with an offensively mixed bias. Basically, this pokemon is strong enough to run physically on its own, while it greatly appreciates a baton-passed NP or substitute from Togekiss, as well as a Wish to heal off any possible recoil damage suffered from what is sure to be a commonly used Life Orb set. Togekiss appreciates CAP11's fighting and Dark arsenal that would be granted through a moderately deep reservoir of 35 VGMs enough so that it can run different offensive options like Shadow ball, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, maybe even Signal Beam or Psychic, should the need arise.

With the Rotom and Gengar problem solved, and the Zapdos problem... not really solved (more tolerated than anything), this stat bias spread catches my eye as an extremely competent one in terms of being able to support togekiss by removing a lot of its counters, forming an offensive core, and liberating Togekiss of its moveslot syndrome to an extent. Perhaps Togekiss is going to be less of a physical powerhouse than most people thought it was meant to be, but the fact of the matter is, no matter who does the killing, both pokemon are going to be used in tandem, which would give togekiss increased use. This means that theoretically, questions one and four would be answered with a resounding yes.

 

[callforjudgement]

Not proposing anything immediately, but: I've been looking at what sort of stat values we'd need in order to get certain KOs. For instance, you need an Excellent level of special sweepiness to be able to outspeed and 2HKO Zapdos with a (non-STAB) positive-nature LO Power Gem; that sort of trick, therefore, would mean we'd need relatively low defences, or a very focused movepool, to make an acceptable CAP. If you don't care about outspeeding that typically defensive Pokémon, a low Very Good special attack is needed to get the same 2HKO on Zapdos with a speed more similar to Togekiss's own. On the physical side, you need Very Good physical sweepiness to be able to OHKO Blissey with Close Combat after SR damage, assuming a neutral nature no EVs (i.e. a special-sweeper build which has a physical move on it to take out Blissey) at a base 100 speed, or just Good at base 80.

Just for fun, I also looked at what it would take to be able to OHKO Jolteon with a +2 Vacuum Wave; the rather implausible base stat of 186 required to pull off that trick would ironically not require a massively high Special Sweepiness due to the effects of speed if it were very slow, but even at a speed like 80 would easily rank in the Amazing category. It seems that due to its typing, CAP11/Togekiss is going to be defeated by SpecsJolt with pretty much any sane build (unless CAP11 has a speed of at least 131, the aforementioned stupidly high SpA, or is very specially defensive), and that's not a weakness it looks possible to patch at this stage.

I feel that the correct sort of build, incidentally, is something specially aggressive but physically defensive (to give both offensive and defensive synergy with Togekiss; you want to attack the same way to help wear down common checks, but defend differently so you don't die to them). I'm going to assume that being much faster than Togekiss would be counter-productive, as it wouldn't help beat many of Togekiss's counters/checks in particular (but rather help out other Pokémon more), and both CAP11 and Togekiss are likely to be spreading paralysis around anyway. So this leads me to conclude that sensible sweepinesses would be Good physical sweepiness, Very Good special sweepiness.

I haven't calculate Tankinesses yet, but I'd suggest that CAP11 should be specially tanky enough to survive two Thunderbolts from Zapdos or Rotom (two Pokémon Togekiss hates), yet crippled in the attempt; and more physically tanky than specially tanky (in order to provide good synergy with Togekiss's excellent special defences).

 

[petrie911]

High speed should be considered for CaP11, I would say, as one of the things it would be nice to have is a good receiver of Nasty Plots, something Togekiss is rather unique in passing. Good, but not great, special attack would also be needed. CaP11 should be able to beat Blissey with Aura Sphere at +2

Because of this, I would suggest a special sweepiness of 7, which allows CaP11 to do exactly that.

As far as physical sweepiness goes, Blissey is the main thing. OHKOing her takes a fair amount of attack power even with STAB CC, though 2HKOing is really no problem. A physical sweepiness of 5 should be sufficient for 2HKOing Blissey straight up with CC. However, 5 sweepiness puts stringent limits on attack power if we want high speed, so maybe rank 6 would be better.

In conclusion

PS: Rank 5 or 6
SS: Rank 7

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I personally feel we require CAP11 to be a sweeper, or at the very least, something speedy for shooting Thunder Wave everywhere. Keeping this in mind, I propose that:-

Physical Sweepiness: Rank 7
Physical Tankiness: Rank 6
Special Sweepiness: Rank 6
Special Tankiness: 5

Togekiss is mainly specially bulky. Now whiel I know we aren't going for a defensive core, CAP11 may have to face a few resisted hits on switch ins. However, to discourage defensive core creation, I suggest giving it have a decent Defense and bad Special Defense, so that no serious attempt at stall can be made.

Offensively, a perfect mate needs to be able to go Physical, with perhaps a Special move thrown in. For this reason,I propose giving it good physical Sweepiness and OK Special Sweepiness.

 

[Zystral]

In my honest opinion, due to the way typing has gone, I don't think we can make CAP11 an effective offense supporter of Togekiss, mainly because it isn't as effective as getting rid of Togekiss' counters, and has a chance of being autonomous to the point that it wouldn't need to be paired with Togekiss to be effective.

Thus, something I have talked about on IRC a lot; My proposal is to make CAP11 the Main Sweeper in this Offensive Core, with Togekiss being the support instead.
Rather than tailoring CAP11 to suit Togekiss' needs, we can tailor CAP11's needs to suit Togekiss. This would mean making some sort of sweeper that benefits from Paralysis Support, a Nasty Plot Baton Pass, perhaps Wish/Encore support. This way, we still fufill the concept in some way, and the end result of a CAP would still be extremely effective in the current metagame.

So look at it this way - Togekiss can give paralysis support. So we should aim to make the CAP abuse that. Low speed would be in order.
Togekiss can Baton Pass Nasty Plots. So having a higher Special Attack (110 ish?) would be even better, so that with the proper paralysis support, once it is Baton Passed a boost, it become a wrecking ball with near perfect STAB coverage. Give it some means of giving back to Togekiss as well - perhaps after a single Nasty Plot it has balanced yet powerful attacking stats meaning it can be an effective mixed wall-breaker (similar to old NP MixApe).

Alternatively, ignore the Paralysis Support and just build something that absolutely NEEDS a Nasty Plot to be effective.
My example I used on IRC was Crobat; once it obtains a Nasty Plot boost it becomes a very effective, very devastating Special Sweeper, although the biggest problems it has are; 1. Stealth Rock weakness; 2. Priority weakness; 3. Lack of time/opportunity to set up Nasty Plot.
So, what we could do was make something that was moderately bulky, but not too much. Something along the lines of Mesprit or Starmie - can take two or three hits, but can't tank at all. Give it bad attacking stats. maybe 60 Atk if you want to kill Blissey that badly, although we can then give it high Speed and decent Special Attack. However, The important thing to note is that we cannot have too high a Special Attack, as we want CAP11 to rely on obtaining a Nasty Plot boost. Something in the range of 90 would be effective, as it would not be OHKO/2HKOing many threats, yet after a Nasty Plot boost it would be sufficiently powerful enough to KO the likes of Rotom and perhaps even 2-3HKO Blissey with STAB Focus Blast/Aura Sphere.

Either way, it would be more effective from this point now to make something that can benefit from the existence of Togekiss more than having Togekiss benefit from the existence of CAP11.

 

[Deck Knight]

My considered suggestions:

PSweep: Rank 4 (Above Average)
PTank: Rank 5 (Good)
SSweep: Rank 7 (Excellent)
STank: Rank 6 (Very Good)

The stats I was looking at in general for this combination landed in Rank 6: Very Good territory.

Now for my reasoning:

The way I see it the best way to complement Togekiss and little else is to make our Fighting/Dark Type primarily biased to special, offensively and defensively. There are already a multitude of physically based Fighting types, which even includes Infernape since its mostly using Fire Blast off special Attack and Close Combat, a physical attack. Physical Fighting attacks do a lot more to help Zapdos overcome Blissey, and while there will always be room for things like Focus Punch and Close Combat almost be default, Togekiss' supportive movepool, especially Plotpassing and its generally excellent coverage makes dual spectrum attacking less important.

It should have a decent level of physical defense, Machamp-esque is quite good for what it needs to take. Opposing STAB Close Combats will probably take it out anyway, but it should be able to at least take a random Waterfall or two, maybe an unboosted UBSTAB Superpower, in addition to being able to switch into Stone Edge and Crunch.

The special stats are the most important. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are still neutral attacks right now, and Zapdos is fairly threatening without a decent level of special defense, as are offensive variants of Rotom. Moreover, with both it and Togekiss having high levels of SpD, taking neutral attacks is eased if both are healthy.

Special Offense is the most important aspect. The reason it's so high is because of Speed. Unfortunately Togekiss' most threatening foes have speeds ranging from 90-110. Worse still, many of them have powerful offensive stats and strong Fighting-type moves, which means our CAP may need to have 110+ Spe. In order to make it's Special Attack acceptable for a boost without being able to sweep on its own, Rank 7 Special Sweepiness is very beneficial. It can KO important threats like Gengar and Rotom-A with STAB Dark Pulse, and possibly take a stab at taking out Tyranitar with Focus Blast or Aura Sphere, even if it's Scarfed or +1 DD. It would also reap massive benefits from Plotpass Kiss.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

Here's my suggestion:

Physical Sweepiness: Rank 6 (Very Good)
Physical Tankiness: Rank 6 (Very Good)
Special Sweepiness: Rank 7 (Excellent)
Special Tankiness: Rank 6 (Very Good)
Overall: Rank 7 (Excellent)

CaP11 should be able to hit from both spectrums, although it's Special should be the higher of the two, able to make use of a Plotpass to it. It should be able to at least take a couple hits, both physical and special, while hitting the foe back for decent damage.

 

[Wikey]

I was going to suggest a bias very similar to Deck Knight's. The only difference was one higher rank in PSweep. I think I may have been over-estimating the level needed to do good damage with physical fighting attacks. I just want to second that the best way to make CAP11 want Togekiss as a partner is to give it a build that wants to be passed NPs and enough Speed to take out Kiss's enemies.

 

[Deck Knight]

Upon further review, I don't think Rank 7 Special Sweepiness is sufficient for CAP 11 to be an offensive threat on its own. Consider the following: Despite nuetral coverage on nearly everything, the best special moves are Aura Sphere, the poor accuracy of Focus Blast, and Dark Pulse. Not exactly the most viable of special moves from a power perspective.

I think Rank 8 Special Sweepiness would be required to get the kind of Speed/SA combination capable of being a threat. For comparison, Gengar is rank 9. It doesn't need the power of Gengar but in order to achieve significant offensive KO's against Pokemon threatening toTogekiss and any CAP 10 with the sort of defenses being suggested. Togekiss isn't too big a sweeping threat on its own, so hopefully it can act in a support capacity.

So I'm basically supporting Zy, but being more specific. Incidentally, you hit 150 (High) with Rank 7, 8, or anything above Rank 5 really.

 

[Rhys DeAnno]

Because the excellent dual stabs let this thing sweep well, we need to focus on making togekiss an excellent supporter. That means we want to take advantage of Togekiss as much as we can, and the most unique support function of Togekiss is to pass Nasty Plots. When recieving a Nasty Plot from Togekiss, the pokemon will often be taking a Physical attack, since Togekiss is so Specially tanky, so to be a good partner we want something Physically bulky but Specially frail. Being specially frail will hamper it in taking advantage of some other common Baton Passers in OU, namely the soon to be legal Nasty Plot Celebi and the Agility Passing Gliscor.

So my suggestion is it looks something like this:

Physical Sweepiness: Rank 5 (Good)
Physical Tankiness: Rank 7 (Excellent)
Special Sweepiness: Rank 7-8 (Excellent-Fantastic)
Special Tankiness: Rank 4 (Below Average)

We want it to be able to come in on a Physical (Rock Type) attack aimed at Togekiss, take it like a champ, and rip shit up with a Nasty Plot. We want it to have very high SpA so it can even wound Blissey with its fighting STAB special at +2. Its good physical durability will let it take most priority attacks well, but if not supported by a NP it will be in an almost Gengar-esque situation and be KOed by the first thing that survives to fire a special attack back at it or outspeeds it.

A concern is people may get wise to us and throw special attacks at Togekiss, but this can be abused if Togekiss also has substitute and is given a lot of Special bulk EVs, possibly allowing it to pass a sub as well if people get too smart with their special attacks.

 

[hydrolphin]

CAP11 will need very good speed in order to beat common Fighting types like Lucario that currently bother Togekiss. If given low speed, the only chance the combo has to beat Luke is for Togekiss to T-Wave it... which would severely cripple Togekiss in the process. As such, a high speed is required.

With a high speed in place, I then considered should the pokemon be physical, special or mixed. Mixed would hurt the pokemon as a whole due to stat limitations. If CAP11 were mixed, we would be locked into 2 scenarios:

1. We give CAP11 great offensive stats, but counterbalance it by giving it dismal defenses.

2. We give CAP11 great offensive stats, and continue with solid defenses, but the movepool is shot.

3. CAP11 gets mediocre offensive stats.

None of those options are desirable, so that leaves Physical and Special as the only options. To compare these, I made a list of what gives Togekiss trouble.

Rotom-A
Zapdos
Jolteon
Blissey
Tyranitar

Of these, Rotom and Zapdos are primarily Physical defensively, and Blissey and Tyranitar are Special. Jolteon extremely frail, and will die to a good powered STAB from either side. CAP11's typing, Fighting/Dark, can take care of Rotom, Blissey, and Tyranitar from either side, though it does help to be from their weaker side. So that leaves Zapdos as the remaining threat, who must be covered with a nonSTAB move. Zapdos is weak to Rock (primarily physical) and Ice (primarily special). Since Zapdos is most commonly seen as a physical tank/wall, and it has a weakness to be exposed on the special side in Ice, special would be the best choice.

So with this in mind, I had to find a combination of Speed and Special Attack that would make CAP11 viable. I need at least 91 speed, but more is welcome, and I want good special attack, that would become very dangerous if passed a NP. At Rank 6 Special Sweepiness, CAP11 would be able to have the speed it needs and still a solid SpA. Contrarily, we could also give CAP11 very high speed and a usable SpA, and it would still sit in this range. As for physical sweepiness, I don't see any reason to have this even be usable. As I said before, either movepool or defenses would have to be sacraficed to make this thing mixed, neither of which I want to do. So my suggested Physical Sweepiness is Rank 3. Provided CAP11 is given around 50 base attack, you can shoot the speed up as high as you want, and it will still sit at that range.

Next we come to the defenses. Bringing the threat list up again:
Rotom-A
Zapdos
Jolteon
Blissey
Tyranitar
Blissey has essentially no offense, so it shouldn't be considered when discussing defenses. Jolteon, Rotom, and Zapdos are always going to be special, while Ttar is normally only seen physical, but it does sometimes use special moves. Obviously, this thing needs to have great special tankiness, especially when you consider it doesn't resist Electric. Rank 7 Special tankiness is the range I would suggest. This allows CAP11 absorb neutral special hits without much investment. A solid Rank 6 Phyiscal Tankiness, allows CAP11 to still comfortably beat Ttar, but doesn't turn CAP11 into a Gliscor-like tank.

So that brings me to the following:
Physical Sweepiness: Rank 3
Physical Tankiness: Rank 6
Special Sweepiness: Rank 6
Special Tankiness: Rank 7

Total: Rank 6

At first glance this actually looks very similar to Togekiss. This is more Togekiss' fault than CAP11's. Togekiss, despite being very biased to the special side, has poor specially defensive typing, weak to TBolt and Ice Beam. CAP11 is able to cover that, while still taking advantage of Togekiss' unique ability to Pass NP boosts. Should we give CAP11 something like 100/91 Special stats, it can't really sweep without a NP Pass. Togekiss can also give CAP11 T-Wave support. While CAP11 can outspeed Lucario, it will need a bit of T-Wave support to get passed stuff like Jirachi and Infernape.

 

[Zakki]

I suggest CAP 11 to be much more based on what Zy said, suit it to what support Togekiss could give, and then work from there.

Togekiss is most notably know for its T-wave support. So make the pokemon over all slow, making T-wave a necessity if you would want CAP11 to preform its duty, thus minimizing the chance of a support unit for Gyara (unless your running T-wave Gyara and then I applaud you :) )
Next because of this, I would make it either very strong one both spectrums with weaker defenses [Blaziken Build, ffn Blaze build] or Strong on one area (I think we're leaning toward Special) with decent defenses [Machamp build, ffn Champ build]. The Blaze build would need Agility or T-wave support but would be over all strong on both fronts or the Champ Build would need T-wave support to continue a sweep with minimal damage. Based on then community, the Champ build would be more likely chosen.

Blaze Build:
PS: 5
PT:5
SS: 6
St: 5
Overall: 5
(inversed Blaziken's Attack and Sp.Atk because we are leaning towards Special, and dropped 10 base points in speed. Blaziken's PS is 7 and SS is 6)

Champ Build:
PS: 4
PT: 6
SS: 6
ST: 6
Overall: 6
(Champ's stats inversed Atk and Sp.Atk)

 

[danmantincan]

PS - 5
A decent physically offensive stats will allow CAP11 to use its great physical STAB attacks (Superpower, Focus Punch, Close Combat [sorry if this is considered poll jumping]) and cause some respectable damage to Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar, though it will not be doing a lot of damage to those that it does not hit for SE damage.

PT - 6
Like others have said, CAP11 needs to be able take some physical attacks aimed at Togekiss. Fortunately, CAP11 will resist Rock attacks, but even though this duo will be troubled by Fighting, we cannot make its PT to high, or else it will end up being paired with another Pokemon.

SS - 7
CAP11 should have a high Special Sweeper rating, because it is going to be a recipient of Nasty Plot boosts. Having a SS rating of 7 or 8 would be good for CAP11 since it can hit certain Pokemon for decent damage without a Nasty Plot boost, but because its two special STABs only have a BP of 80 and 90 it can't do well enough by itself.

ST - 6
A ST rating of 6 or higher is needed so CAP11 doesn't constantly get 2HKOd by any strong Electric/Ice attacks aimed at Togekiss.

Overall - 7

 

[Deck Knight]

ATL-Hat again:

Just a reminder for the folks who didn't pick this up in the typing slates:

You are supposed to be convincing the TL of why he should select a certain range or ranking (It's technically supposed to be range but unfortunately our ranges really don't cover a spectrum with enough specificity).

So the absolute worst thing you can do is just say "I support so-and-so's rankings." Every post you make must be made as if you are addressing the TL directly and not the other posters in the thread.

Thank you.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Physical Sweepiness: Rank 4 (Above Average)
Physical Tankiness: Rank 5 ( Good)
Special Sweepiness: Rank 8 (Fantastic)
Special Tankiness: Rank 6 (Very Good)

Total: Rank 6


Overall my reasoning for these BSR it's simliar to Deck Knight's
but with a Fantastic rating for Special Sweepiness. Deck Knight's two post explains how I feel about CAP11 should look like from a statistic standpoint perfectly but since it's mandatory to explain my ratings suggestion regardless if it's just a rehash of someone else's reasoning here they are

PS - Originally wanted CAP11 to have some usable physical attack so it could use Pursuit and/or Sucker Punch to combat Pokemon like Genger and Rotom, but after some tinkering with this I come to realized that they're was no way to have decent physical offensive, great speed and special offensive, and decent defense within a Rank 6 rating so I felt that giving CAP11 better special prowess was more benenfical for the project as a whole.

PT - Similar reasoning towards this as Deck Knight's. We want this pokmon to be sturdy enough to be able to take at least one or two neutral hits and/or a few resisted moves.

SS - I feel that choosing a rating of Fantastic would be the best thing to do for this Pokemon. Fantastic give us enough room to give CAP11 enough power to be consider a threat on it's own. The rating in within itself wouldn't create some unstoppable monster when you consider that Genger has BSR of Rank 9 in special sweepiness and it's walled by many.

ST - Having decent to high SpD will provide some cushions towards those nasty Ice Beams, Thunderbolts, or random Hidden Powers move being thrown in Togekiss/CAP11 direction. Those coming from pokemon such as Zapdos or Genger will probably still hurt like heck, but at least this Pokemon isn't instantly dying from.

 

[FlareBlitz]

PS: Rank 5 (Good)
PT: Rank 6 (Very Good)
SS: Rank 8 (Fantastic)
ST Rank 6 (Very Good)

Overall: Rank 7

The idea is for this to have excellent stats in both speed and special attack while maintaining very good mixed bulk. Mixed bulk is important because it needs to be able to take powerful attacks from both sides of the spectrum that both it and Togekiss are neutral to. Currently I'm envisioning a slightly higher physical defense than special, but that's mostly because the metagame is more biased towards physical attacks.

The high sweepiness is definitely important, both from an offensive perspective and a defensive perspective. It's important from an offensive perspective because the most reliable special STABs for Dark and Fighting have fairly low BP (like Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere), meaning we need high special attack to compensate. It's important from a defensive perspective because high sweepiness = high speed, which lets us switch into a Thunderbolt from Gengar, for example, without worrying about immediately eating an LO Focus Blast the next turn. High speed also prevents powerful Fighting types from switching in with impunity; while Lucario can take Dark attacks with ease, it's not going to want to stick around while something faster than it can use powerful Fighting moves. Same with Infernape. Machamp is still an issue, but meh.

Basically we went with a very neutral typing (i.e. few weaknesses, only key resists) so we need high mixed bulk to avoid taking too much damage from neutral moves and high speed/special attack to avoid getting slammed by coverage attacks from something faster after the switch. Oh and Rank 5 physical sweepiness, when combined with the high speed, gives just enough ATK to wreck Blissey with Close Combat if the partner decides to go physical.

 

[Staraptor Call]

For two Pokemon to have defensive synergy with each other, they should cover the opposite territory. This allows them to counter as much as possible between each other while not having too much unnecessary overlap. But for two Pokemon to have good offensive synergy, they need to have similar offensive biases. If two Pokemon have similar offensive biases, they put pressure on the opponent's counters, and one can sweep once the other has removed their common counters.

Togekiss has much better Special Tankiness than Physical Tankiness, so in order to form a good defensive combination with Togekiss, CAP11 will have to have high Physical Tankiness. In order to match Togekiss's Special Tankiness well, CAP11 should have Rank 7 Physical Tankiness. Any lower and CAP11 would not make a good defensive partner to Togekiss. Any higher and it would become an outright Physical wall.

However, note that on the previously posted list of Pokemon that threaten Togekiss, most are primarily Special attackers. Particularly of concern in Special Electric, which is a type that even Togekiss, with its large Special Tankiness, cannot take. CAP11's Special Tankiness will have to be above Good in order to not be wrecked by STAB Electric. Ludicolo, an already-existing Pokemon that is at the very top of the Good range for Special Tankiness, would need to run an extremely Specially bulky EV spread in order to not be 2HKOed by Specs Jolteon's Thunderbolt. But Lickilicky, which is on the top end of Very Good, doesn't even need a boosting nature to avoid that 2HKO. SpecsJolt's Thunderbolt is the strongest Special attack that Togekiss can't handle, so CAP10 should have Rank 6 Special Tankiness but does not need more. Also, if CAP11's Special Tankiness were too high, people would not attack CAP11 with the Special moves Togekiss can easily switch into.

In terms of offensive stats, CAP11 should match Togekiss so that they overwhelm the opponent's Specially defensive Pokemon. It is preferable for CAP11 to be heavily Specially offensive to the point of a Rank 8, because that would force the opponent to bring out the most Specially defensive Pokemon he or she has. But CAP11 should not be Physically incompetent because it should be able to lure out and KO that pink blob. A Physical Sweepiness rank of 4 would keep CAP11 almost completely Special but would still allow it to 2HKO Blissey with a Base 100 or 120 power Fighting move.

These stat ratings push CAP11 into the Excellent range, which limits its movepool. But CAP11 will not need a particularly large movepool, since with this stat rating spread it will primarily fill just a couple roles: Special sweeper and remover of Togekiss's counters. CAP11 will not need a large movepool if it is only meant to do a narrow set of things.

tl;dr
PS: 4
PT: 7
SS: 8
ST: 6
Overall: 7

 

[Scoopapa]

I don't have a lot to add that hasn't been covered already, since I generally agree with the direction things are going. However, I'd like to point out that high speed and only decent SpAtk is not the only way to make this a great Baton Pass recipient. Since this CAP could potentially have STAB Vacuum Wave to work with (and dual STAB good enough to have room for it in a moveset), a spread with low speed and very high SpAtk could also be workable (though both could have the same SS rating, I think it's worth noting a distinction). It's probably not quite as scary once given a boost, since it's only going first with one type of attack, but I think it has some advantages, too:

- Makes use of paralysis spread by Togekiss (which goes some way towards specializing this to Togekiss rather than Zapdos and Rotom, who usually Poison or Burn).
- Can still do lots of damage without baton pass. Lots of people will understandably not want to use a baton pass strategy.
- Makes it easier to keep BSR in check.

I don't think the idea of high Speed and decent SpAtk is bad, mind you. Just throwing this out as food for thought.

Edit: If we give this thing a rank 7 BST, I don't think the resulting movepool restriction will be much of a hindrance. With STAB Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere, this guy doesn't really need a very wide movepool. This doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about balance, however. On the contrary, it means the auto-balance of movepool restrictions won't really apply as much to CAP11.