CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Hydreigonz]

Ok, I know that a lot of people want Parting Shot for the novelty of the move, but it would also be very helpful in our core. Everyone thought Volt Switch would've made bulky water types no longer threats, but we all still wanted a pivoting move, so that's why U-turn was voted a viable move. Parting Shot is kind of like a step up in pivoting, as it would let Lucario set up, or let Latias safely Defog while not giving up momentum. Yes, Parting Shot is a very powerful move, but not necessarily game-breaking. Allow Parting Shot.

 

[nyttyn]

This. This 100 times over. While I will comment on other moves a bit later, I just want to take the time to emphasize this as much as I can. Yes, Parting Shot seems to fit in our role. But we have to remember that our goal is not to make a Pokemon to fit a general role. It is to make one to fit a core. That means both making it work in the core, and making it advantageous to it to do so. Parting Shot is a stupidly powerful move in the right hands, and, while it helps Lucario, it helps every single sweeper in the game (hell, every single Pokemon in the game, for what its worth), and many much more so than Lucario (specifically bulkier guys). And of those who it helps more than Lucario, many of them are in the exact same role as it is.

While Parting Shot might help it fill its role better, it will destroy any and all reason to use it in the specified core, as it will just become an excellent partner/supporter for every single sweeper in the game, and especially those in direct competition for Lucario. So, I think it is absolutely imperative that we Disallow Parting Shot.

(Imperative enough to make me use bold there, despite my utter distaste for it :P)

Just to emphasize this: Parting Shot is an incredibly good move. It can force switches, ease prediction to the moon and back, it can allow a free setup even when staring down a matchup that you would otherwise lose...To put it in perspective, Parting Shot is such an incredibly powerful move, that if CAP 18 got it, it would utterly define the pokemon, and cause it to see use in pretty much every team imaginable, just because of how incredibly good a viable Parting Shot user is (especially one with CAP 18's typing and stats I mean holy shit)

Disallow Parting Shot

italics AND bold for emphasis.

 

[Bughouse]

Disallow Parting Shot. Yes Parting Shot helps Lucario set up. But you know what else does Parting Shot help? Every single boosting sweeper, especially bulky ones, and Lucario isn't one of them. There are much better sweepers to take advantage of Parting Shot and if we put Parting Shot in our movepool, the only thing we will manage is to make sure that there are way better partners for the CAP than Lucario.

This a thousand times. If we want to try to help Lucario, we can do so through burning things, slow U-turning against a Latias, etc.

Parting Shot is too good in general and will help anything that likes setting up.

 

[alexwolf]

Why are so many people forgetting that we need to lose to Blissey and Chansey and that a 101 HP Substitute is an AWFUL way to do that? It almost lets us beat the only true counter we have left. We CANNOT afford to have Substitute on this CAP. We couldn't screw Chansey over harder if we gave 18 Heal Block. Substitute is ENTIRELY anti-concept because of our HP stat.

How do 101 HP subs beat Chansey and Blissey? Just because they need two turns to break them? They still have reliable recovery and we don't, and they still wall us to hell and back, meaning that they can and will slowly kill us even with Sub. SubToxic may be a small concern i am not sure, but it doesn't seem such a great idea on a SR weak Pokemon. Heatran uses such a set because of better defensive typing, more bulk, and SR neutrality, but i don't believe that Sub will be such a good option on the CAP, so i don't think we need to worry too much about SubToxic sets pressuring the blobs. It's better to be safe than sorry though, so if it's possible to disallow Subsitute (iirc all Pokemon able to learn TMs learn it) then by all means let's do it.

Also, disallow Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web. Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web fuck up our defensive and offensive checks respectively, as Toxic Spikes let us get past Chansey, Blissey, Jellicent, and other defensive Water-types, such as Vaporeon, while defensive Defog users (Zapdos, Mega Scizor, Skarmory) are all OHKO/2HKOed by the CAP, making Toxic Spikes even more menacing against stall teams. Sticky Web lets the CAP outspeed Pokemon that should check us, such as Keldeo, Raikou, and Mega Manectric, and OHKO / 2HKO them before they are able to do anything. Not to mention that if we give to the CAP Sticky Web, the CAP's teammates will be focused around taking advantage of Sticky Web, and we know very well that there are much better Pokemon than Latios and Lucario to do this. Spikes have a similar effect with Toxic Spikes against defensive teams, allowing the CAP to put Chansey and Blissey much easier into 2HKO range, and pressuring defensive teams like hell in general, due to the inability of the defensive Defog users to switch into the CAP.

 

[Albacore]

In order to contribute to the Parting Shot/Memento discussion, I've decided to run a large amount of calcs to check whether these moves matter or not, and for different chosen offensive moves. Obviously, we will assume that the switch-in is an Adamant Lucario and that our CAP is Modest with max speed. We will also assume that Lucario will set up a Swords Dance, try to KO the opposing Pokemon, and be able to sweep from there. However, this is different in practice, since Lucario will not be sweeping if it's facing an Aegislash, so take these with a grain of salt. Also, keep in mind that our CAP will not necessarily live all moves it needs to Parting Shot or Memento. A stat nerf matters solely if it turns a 2HKO into a 3HKO, or a 3HKO into 4HKO. Life Orb will be taken into account : leaving the Pokemon at less than 20-10% health will be considered to matter. Neutral calcs will be assumed with U-Turn or Baton Pass or something. When it comes to judging usefulness, Parting Shot calcs will be compared to neutral calcs, and Memento calcs will be compared to Parting Shot calcs.

On the first turn, he opposing Pokemon will be assumed to be using the optimal or most likely move against our CAP and that this move will hit Lucario, unless it is faster or Memento is used (so prediction is removed from the equation), in which case the optimal move against Lucario is used, at it will always be on the second turn, unless the Pokemon is choice locked. The CAP will be assumed to have max Speed with a jolly nature, and the other Pokemon will be assumed to have their most common sets. These calcs have been run for every Pokemon currently in the OU tier that can 2HKO Lucario at +0 (basically everything besides Blissey, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Venusaur). Also, I won't even bother calcing Bisharp, partly because there is no way it is staying in on Lucario, but mostly because Parting Shot increases its Attack and Memento doesn't change it. Mandibuzz has Foul Play as its main attacking move and isn't worth calcing either.

Remeber, these calcs are mainly here to compare the effectiveness of Parting Shot and Memento and won't always be relevant to an actual battle. Some of these calcs are more important than others, I just treated them equally for simplicity's sake. Feel free to point out my mistakes and criticize my procedure.

massive calc dump

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 213-252 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, hit on switch
-1 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, hit on switch -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 108-127 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- -2 0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 124-148 (44.1 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO -- doesn't matter due to Shadow Sneak (but seriously don't set up on Aegislash)

252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 360-424 (128.1 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 240-284 (85.4 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 478-564 (170.1 - 200.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 318-376 (113.1 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 240-284 (85.4 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter in the long run

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 213-252 (75.8 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, hit on switch
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, hit on switch -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 108-127 (38.4 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters (yeah good luck taking out Azumarill)

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 43-51 (15.3 - 18.1%), hit on switch -- possible 6HKO -- 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 343-406 (122 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 29-34 (10.3 - 12%), hit on switch -- possible 9HKO -- -1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 229-273 (81.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 322-380 (114.5 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 214-254 (76.1 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 162-192 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

-2 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario in Sun: 420-494 (149.4 - 175.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, so there, no need for more calcs, doesn't matter

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO, hit on switch -- 4 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 88-105 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 82.3% chance to 3HKO, hit on switch -- -1 4 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 136-160 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run, unless you get a really good damage roll
-2 4 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 102-120 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 380-450 (135.2 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO, hit on switch
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO, hit on switch -- -1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 134-162 (47.6 - 57.6%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 192-228 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

4 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 174-206 (61.9 - 73.3%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 4 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 116-138 (41.2 - 49.1%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters
-2 4 Atk Deoxys-D Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 88-104 (31.3 - 37%) -- 68.9% chance to 3HKO -- matters

252 Atk Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 282-334 (100.3 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 188-222 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters
-2 252 Atk Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- -3 252 Atk Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 112-134 (39.8 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 328-388 (116.7 - 138%), hit on switch -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 164-194 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252 SpA Espeon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 177-208 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 SpA Espeon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 118-139 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters
-2 252 SpA Espeon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 88-105 (31.3 - 37.3%) -- 82.3% chance to 3HKO -- doesn't matter

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 494-584 (175.8 - 207.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter in the long run

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 440-518 (156.5 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 218-260 (77.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters slightly

-2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 270-318 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO so doesn't matter

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 350-412 (124.5 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 174-206 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters (don't try this at home)

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 276-326 (98.2 - 116%), hit on switch -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
-1 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 186-218 (66.1 - 77.5%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 138-164 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO -- matters

252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 128-151 (45.5 - 53.7%); hit on switch -- 41% chance to 2HKO -- 252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 85-101 (30.2 - 35.9%), hit on switch -- 36.9% chance to 3HKO -- -1 252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 158-186 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 265-313 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 175-208 (62.2 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO -- doesn't matter

252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%), hit on switch -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 158-186 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 366-432 (130.2 - 153.7%), hit on switch -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 244-288 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 182-216 (64.7 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 216-256 (76.8 - 91.1%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 146-172 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 110-130 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters

-2 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 291-346 (103.5 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- doesn't matter

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 357-421 (127 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 238-282 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 178-211 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
-1 216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters
-2 216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 134-158 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO -- doesn't matter

-2 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 307-361 (109.2 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, so doesn't matter

-2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 260-308 (92.5 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO, doesn't matter in the long run

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 203-239 (72.2 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 134-160 (47.6 - 56.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 101-121 (35.9 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 230-270 (81.8 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 153-181 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 114-136 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters

-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 335-398 (119.2 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- doesn't matter

-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 315-374 (112 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO -- doesn't matter

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 163-193 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 109-129 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters
-2 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 82-97 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 6% chance to 3HKO - matters

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 373-439 (132.7 - 156.2%), hit on switch -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 249-294 (88.6 - 104.6%), hit on switch -- 31.3% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 190-224 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters
-2 252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter

Rotom-W is just volt switching out so whatever.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 144-171 (51.2 - 60.8%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 96-114 (34.1 - 40.5%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters
-2 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 73-87 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO -- matters

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 183-216 (65.1 - 76.8%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 121-144 (43 - 51.2%), hit on switch -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO -- matters
-2 4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 93-109 (33 - 38.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO -- matters

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 286-337 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 192-226 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters
-2 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 144-169 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter

-2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 260-308 (92.5 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter in the long run

252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 340-400 (120.9 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 170-202 (60.4 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 135-160 (48 - 56.9%), hit on switch -- 91% chance to 2HKO
-1 4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 90-106 (32 - 37.7%), hit on switch -- 92.2% chance to 3HKO -- matters
-2 4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 67-81 (23.8 - 28.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 4HKO -- matters

252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 61-72 (21.7 - 25.6%), hit on switch -- 2.4% chance to 4HKO -- 252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 328-388 (116.7 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 40-48 (14.2 - 17%), hit on switch -- possible 6HKO -- -1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 164-194 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 65-76 (23.1 - 27%) -- 58.4% chance to 4HKO -- 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 348-410 (123.8 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 43-51 (15.3 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO -- -1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 174-206 (61.9 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 392-464 (139.5 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO -- doesn't matter
-2 252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- matters

0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 157-186 (55.8 - 66.1%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 2HKO -- 0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 105-124 (37.3 - 44.1%), hit on switch -- guaranteed 3HKO -- -1 0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 146-174 (51.9 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- doesn't matter in the long run
-2 0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 112-132 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- matters

summary

Parting Shot matters at all for : Blissey, Chansey, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Espeon, Ferrothorn, Greninja, Kyurem-B, Manaphy, Pinsir, Scizor, Mega-Scizor, Skarmory, Slyveon, Talonflame, Togekiss, and Venusaur
Memento matters at all for : All of the above, Alakazam, Azumarill, Breloom, Mega-Charizard-X, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Deoxys-D, Dragonite, Garchomp, Gengar, Gliscor, Goodra, Gyarados, Mega-Gyarados, Heatran, Keldeo, Latias, Latios, Manaphy, Mega-Mawile, Skarmory, Sylveon, Thundurus, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Mega-Tyranitar, Volcarona, and Zapdos

So, what does this all tell us? Well, as alexwolf pointed out, Lucario is too frail to really take advantage of Parting Shot well, since opposing Pokemon can still deal enough damage to it even at -1 offenses. However, that nerf would really help a bulkier Pokemon that could easily take a -1 hit and setup, and I may show this by posting the same calcs using a bulkier sweeper like Mega-Charizard-X or Mega-Scizor. This would make Parting Shot detrimental for the concept of this CAP.
Memento, however, does matter a lot, and pretty much consistently guarantees, or at least facilitates, a setup opportunity for Lucario. Thanks to what is basically the equivalent of Dual Screens as long as the opponent stays in, a frail sweeper like him can abuse it about as easily as a bulkier one. Hence it being pro-concept.

tldr; allow Memento, disallow Parting Shot

 

[EternalSnowman]

Allow Pain Split, Parting Shot: PainSplit is non-reliable recovery and CAP18 doesnt have an really low HP stat to abuse it, but could be niche, however it threatens the blobs. Parting Shot however would be really nice with Overheat, as stated in previous posts. It is also like a weaker Memento that would allow us to have set up opportunities for Lucario.

Disallow Wish: Wish gives us Semi-Reliable recovery, especially since Protect is a pretty much must have move (Standard Pokemon get this move). Also since Latias already has the ability to Wish/HealingWish pass I don't think that CAP18 really needs it.

Allow Swords Dance, Disallow any moves that boost Speed or Special Attack: Speed and Special Attack boosting moves like Flame Charge could potentially allow CAP18 to become a hardcore sweeper rather than or designated role of wallbreaker. I could see Swords Dance on it as a niche physical set, considering that some pokemon like Tentacruel get Swords Dance, I mean Wynaut?

Disallow Sticky Web: Offensive Sticky Webber that isnt a bug type! Sign me up! With Decent speed, good special attack and a reasonable speed, I could see Sticky Web becoming its own set on this thing. There was an entire concept based around Sticky Web before (didn't get selected) so I think that we should steer clear of it.

 

[farmer Potato]

Curse appears to be that one awkward move. It ups Defense, beneficial vs Mawile and Azumarill, but the Attack raise is nigh useless (not enough for even a niche offensive set)

And then the speed drop. NO. This allows it to Analytic Nuke Washer, Goodra, which will outspeed upon a speed drop. This causes us to threaten them enough that their roles will be compromised.
On that note, any non-SwordsDance move that boosts offense has some negative side effects. They either give us an extreme meat shield, or the ability to outspeed and crush our wanted threats.

Ban all offensive and speed boosting moves except Swords Dance.

 

[Expulso]

I'd like to make a case for Flame Charge.

Flame Charge, as you likely know, is a physical move with 50 BP that increases your Speed by 1 stage. Analytic, CAP 18's primary ability, increases power if you move second. This move would force CAP 18 to choose between extra speed or the power boost, putting it in a dilemma that somewhat neuters Flame Charge's effects.

Thanks! :)

 

[FierceDeity1]

I gotta agree with Albacore and all others who say Disallow Parting Shot. Although it certainly helps our core, it doesn't necessarily help our concept. This would make CAP a Major Third in almost any core we wanted it to. If we want to keep CAP together with Luke and Latias, it shouldn't have Parting Shot. I do like the idea of Memento, however, as it lets Luke or Latias in easier after finishing its job, but will probably have a hard time fitting into a moveset. Allow Memento.

 

[FireArrow]

We should allow dragon dance but disallow agility. You have to remember, if cap18 boosts on the switch, we're sacrificing nuking the switch in with analytic. The +1 in attack would be useless, and +1 speed isn't enough to sweep until really late game (which lucario does better anyways.) It doesn't help us against any of our counters but does prevent Excadrill and co. from revenge killing us.

And dear god, disallow sticky web and parting shot. There are so few viable users that these moves alone will give us a niche outside of our core. Do you want to see cap18 as the premier lead for every web team, or a staple on voltturn teams? The amount we get out of it for our concept is just so little in comparison.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Well, Albacore's reasoning has persuaded me. Disallow Parting Shot and allow Memento.

After a few calculations, I've reversed my opinion on Sticky Web. While it doesn't affect some of CAP 18's checks to a significant degree, the ones that Sticky Web does affect allow CAP 18 to easily KO them before they can move:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 278-330 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb CAP 18 Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 316-372 (112.4 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Raikou: 294-347 (91.3 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

This doesn't even take into consideration the other Pokemon (e.g. either Mega Charizard) that would take greater advantage of Sticky Web's effects than Latias or Lucario would. With this considered, I'm going to reverse my earlier opinion. Disallow Sticky Web.

As for a few other moves, Baton Pass and Substitute should both be allowed. Considering Chansey and Blissey can wall CAP 18 all day long with their bulk and healing, taking an extra turn to break a substitute will not be a huge deal for either of them. In turn, Baton Pass can be passed to either Lucario to allow it to set up or to Latias to allow it to Defog with minimal risk. Allow Baton Pass, and allow Substitute.

On a related note, any boosting move should be disallowed. Not only do they not fit the offensive nuke and pivot concept behind CAP 18, having access to both Baton Pass and boosting moves is a poor decision in a metagame where Baton Pass itself is currently being heavily debated.

 

[FireArrow]

Well, Albacore's reasoning has persuaded me. Disallow Parting Shot and allow Memento.
As for a few other moves, Baton Pass and Substitute should both be allowed. Considering Chansey and Blissey can wall CAP 18 all day long with their bulk and healing, taking an extra turn to break a substitute will not be a huge deal for either of them. In turn, Baton Pass can be passed to either Lucario to allow it to set up or to Latias to allow it to Defog with minimal risk. Allow Baton Pass, and allow Substitute.

On a related note, any boosting move should be disallowed. Not only do they not fit the offensive nuke and pivot concept behind CAP 18, having access to both Baton Pass and boosting moves is a poor decision in a metagame where Baton Pass itself is currently being heavily debated.

If we're not gonna have a boosting move, I see very little point in baton pass. Passing substitutes is literally only useful for pivoting out of Blissey/Chansey. Also, your reasoning against boosting moves is very vague. Analytic was based around nuking switch ins, but CAP18 was never intended to solely be a wall breaker or have absolutely zero "sweepiness." Additionaly, CAP18 as no place on full baton pass teams as it doesn't have reliable recovery and a SR weakness.

Basically: Disallow SpAtk/SpDefense/Speed boosting moves, allow Dragon Dance/Attack Boosting moves/Defense Boosting Moves.

 

[Korski]

Personally, I don't think it would be healthy for us to throw a bunch of support options into the movepool. We have labeled this Pokemon an "offensive support" from the get-go and subsequently loaded it up with so much power that giving it a bunch of non-attacking options runs an enormous risk of going overboard. The direction we've taken with this concept has everything to do with "dealing with" the Pokemon that give both Latias and Lucario problems and nothing to do with being versatile/unpredictable/sneaky/etc. Nowhere did we decide we needed a bunch of different ways to deal with Aegislash, Fairies, and bulky Ground-types, and since we already have the high-powered STAB attacks enough to accomplish ~90% of what we need this CAP to do, the last thing we want is go off track here and give this Pokemon tons of versatility on top of its great bulk and overwhelming offensive presence.Those are my opening remarks, so let's get down to the specifics.

All moves that boost stats should be disallowed. In stats, we chose specific power levels on both the offensive and defensive sides that work well for what we need this CAP to do; boosting them further would be an automatic detraction from our goal of completing a 3-Poke core. Making a Pokemon that can sweep or wall any major portion of the metagame on its own is specifically anti-concept. This extends to Flame Charge and Dragon Dance, as it would be incredibly easy to spend the early-mid game just nuking things and then waiting for the end-game to nab that +1 Speed boost to clean up. This CAP cannot be a one-man show if we want it to primarily support our core.

All entry hazard-related moves should be disallowed. This is a sort of role that was never discussed or endorsed anywhere along the way in discussions. Regardless of whether or not this CAP would be good at laying or clearing hazards, giving it the option to set Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes or whatever does nothing in the way of stopping our intended targets. It turns the CAP into an offensive hazard setter in its own right and could very easily push the entire core idea out the window with that much generic utility. If anything, laying hazards would do more to trample our intended threats than to help overcome our intended targets.

Pain Split should be allowed. The main draw of Pain Split for me is that in can indiscriminately drop a lot of opponents into +2 Extremespeed KO territory for Lucario without being a spammable insta-recovery option that only supports the CAP. It's also not entirely reliable, meaning good prediction and teamwork amongst the core members will allow users to get the most mileage out of this move.

Wish should be disallowed. Much like how insta-recovery does nothing to help Latias and Lucario finish off opposing teams, Wish only helps out whoever can switch in safely, which is rarely going to be Lucario. Latias has Wish if the core needs it, and it also has Recover to keep itself healthy. This move is too generally useful and does not fit in with any of the goals of this project.

Reflect, Light Screen, and Memento should all be allowed. These moves do have generic usefulness for anything looking to set up, but Lucario is probably the most classic example of a setup sweeper that is just too frail to get away with boosting against unhindered opponents. A DSMemento set would take away most of the CAP's offensive presence in exchange for an ideal setup opportunity for our core's primary sweeper. This is an enormous sacrifice for the CAP's standalone offensive presence for the sake of teamwork, so I consider these moves to be entirely pro-concept in that regard. Most importantly, though, is that running a set with even just STABs + Dual Screens retains that "offensive support" role we want the CAP to fill without wandering into undesirable territory.

That's it for now. I'll probably come back for more once the list gets whittled down a bit.

 

[FireArrow]

Korski
Totally on board with limiting the support movepool.

Your point against Flame Charge/Dragon Dance convinced me at first, but with a bit of further thought, those moves would actually help our concept. Most late game sweepers outclass CAP18, the only niche it having is having great early game potential as well. Unfortunately, to pull it off with a SR weakness, no recovery, and average bulk (univested) he's gonna need wish/defog support. What better pokemon for that than Latias? Additionally, if he can baton pass the flame charge/dragon dance, he can hand it off to an even better late game sweeper - Lucario. The only real problem with this is dragon dance passing is pretty rare (albeit, it is inferior to smashpass.)

 

[ginganinja]

O.k, I have Disallowed Parting Shot

After reading the arguments for both sides, the Pro Parting Shot arguments boiled down to "well it helps Lucario set up", which I decided numerous pokemon could abuse. Sure, a similar argument could be made towards any supporting move we give this CAP, but in my mind there are few support moves better than Parting Shot, and I seeing as their was little logical basic for adding the move other than "Yea sure why not", I have disallowed it. I would prefer to limit any further discussion of Parting Shot, since it derails this thread from the other moves that I really would like discussed.

Aside from this, there are currently a few moves that stand out for me, as being discussion worthy, which I will break down quickly

-Light Screen: In general, people seem to be ok with Reflect, however, it is Light Screen that is dividing some people. On the one hand, people claim that Light Screen allows us to beat Rotom-W, and some of our other counters, and this is potentially a legitimate concern. I would welcome further calculations that continue to support this. On the other hand, people claim that Light Screen (along with Dual Screens), is necessary to help Lucario set up. I would like to see arguments from this group of people directed at why Light Screen is so important, which Latios / Latias could easily take the role of a DSer, and as to why Light Screen in particular is so important, when there are other supporting moves we could do without impacting on our threat list.

-Sunny Day: This is a move that hasn't gotten a huge amount of discussion, and most of the arguments I have seen boil down to "yea ok most fire types get this so why not give it to this CAP", which might be true, but doesn't automatically grant that this CAP should run this. Of particular concern to me is that fact we spent a good deal of time ensuring that our stat spreads could not break through Lati@s, and yet with sunlight, the power of our fire attacks skyrocket. Granted, Sunny Day is not Drought, it requires Heat Rock to get 7 turns, it requires a free turn to set up, however its presence does impact on our checks and counters list. I am worried if this CAP manages to get a free turn, then uses that free turn to set up Sunny Day, and then sometime within the next 4-6 turns tries to switch in again knowing that almost nothing within this meta can survive a sun boosted analytic Fire Blast / Overheat, making it a worthy strategy to try and pull off (although you would potentially need a Volt Turn team to pull this off). Its high possible that I am just being a worrywart but I would like more discussion on Sunny Day in any case, as its potentially one of those borderline moves that impact on our checks and counters list, without it being abundantly obvious.

Discussion so far has been outstanding (bar a few poorly reasoned arguments), keep up the good work!

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I agree with Korski's argument in favor of Pain Split. With Pain Split, we can preserve CAP18 while still being unable to stall out Chansey and Blissey. We also chip away at opponents' HP with Pain Split, placing them closer to Lucario's KO range. It's really only good healing when CAP18 needs it. Furthermore, it's nice against Aegislash if CAP18 doesn't want to nuke something. It can switch in on Shadow Ball, drop to 50% or 60% health, and get that HP back against the switch-in, and have the HP to switch back into Aegislash again. However, if we allow Substitute with Pain Split, CAP18 would run a nasty SubSplit set capable of Life Orb stalling Latios and Latias as well as doing just a little too well against Blissey and Chansey. Even if we disallow Pain Split and allow Substitute, we will still be able to run a SubToxic set much like Heatran or Aegislash can. Allow Pain Split, Disallow Substitute.

I agree with allowing Reflect and disallowing Light Screen. Light Screen can already be done by Latias and allows CAP18 to defeat Rotom-W as well as threaten Latios and Latias well. Lucario can get by with just Reflect support, as Reflect support allows it to set up against Tyranitar, Bisharp, most Scizor, and Mandibuzz Foul Play. Although Light Screen is nice to have for Lucario, CAP18 isn't the Pokemon that should be providing Lucario that support because CAP18 is going to use Light Screen for itself just as much as it will use it for Lucario. To piggyback off of Reflect, Memento is a good way of letting Lucario set up as many others have mentioned. Memento is much more pro-concept than Light Screen because CAP18 can't take advantage of Memento for itself. Allow Reflect and Memento, Disallow Light Screen.

Sunny Day is a move that boosts the power of our Fire moves. It might not be a traditional boosting move, but it will be used in the same capacity as a boosting move such as Calm Mind. Lucario does not benefit from Sun being up (the reduced power of Water moves matters very little because Water types such as Keldeo and Mega Gyarados carry moves that destroy Lucario regardless), and neither does Latias. Sunny Day, however, lets CAP18 fire off ridiculously powered Analytic Fire Blasts that rip right through its counters:

252 SpA Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 144-169 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 170-201 (55.9 - 66.1%)
252 SpA CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 131-155 (43 - 50.9%)
252 SpA Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 196-231 (60.6 - 71.5%)

We cannot afford to let CAP18 boost the power of its moves any more that it already can. If you want to use CAP18 in Sun pair it with Mega Charizard Y. If you want to use CAP18 in Rain pair it with Politoed. If you want to boost CAP18's power use Baton Pass. But we cannot let CAP18 boost its own moves when we already teeter on defeating its counters. Disallow Sunny Day (and Rain Dance).

 

[ganj4lF]

I agree with Korski's arguments on basically everything, especially on hazards moves, which I'm really strongly against. What does puzzle me a bit is that you're against set-up moves (specifically, defense-boosting) and then agree with screens being allowed. A Reflect / Light Screen is effectively like a +2 Def / SpD, so an Acid Armor / Amnesia on steroids (they have advantages and disadvantages, but the basic effect is almost the same). I do not think screens should be allowed based on the same exact logic that leads to the exclusion of defense boosting moves; yeah, screens help Lucario getting its +2, but we can already do so in a number of ways (U-Turn on random special walls that come in and try to wall us, Memento (which should be allowed) + switch to Lucario, hell even a simple WoW can achieve that in certain circumstances) so I don't think we should allow Light Screen and Reflect.

 

[FierceDeity1]

Im still not too sure about dual screens. My thought is that if we want to run screens, we will probably drop Life Orb for Light Clay, along with running Memento (if allowed) or U-Turn with only one STAB, and invest more in bulk to ensure we get our screens up, so we won't be nuking as much as with the offensive set. But if we do end up running offensive screens, it might end up being anti-concept...

 

[Hoping4megasceptile]

For the most part, I agree with korski, but, my only disagreement is light screen. I think we should Disallow Light Screen. While reflect doesn't hurt too many threats, light screen does, as many of our threats are specially based. Also I like reflect because it patches up our worse defense stat. While you effectively get 6 turns of both up, during those 6 turns CAP18 will be a behemoth

Onto my own opinions, I believe we should Allow Aqua Ring. It is unreliable recovery that could be used in conjunction with life orb to make the recoil less impactful or stack with leftovers for a good bulky set. However, I think it could be easy to outstall blissey with this and 101 HP substitutes (which make sense considering every tm learning pokemon can get it) so I am not as sure with it as others.

I also think we should Allow protect, substitute, and swagger. These don't need to much explanation, as almost every pokèmon learns them, and swagger isn't too big of a deal, since it is banned anyway. Also, for those complaining that 101 HP subs let us beat blissey, I did some calculations, and a uninvested thunderbolt from blissey always breaks our sub. If running a sub on this becomes extra common, don't you think a variation to counter it will too.

I say Disallow Sleep and Paralysis moves. While glare would be cool to slow down excadrill without much speed investment, but they cripple most of our counters by slowing them down and preventing them from moving, and most are fairly reliable. This is why we should Allow Hypnosis. It would give us an unreliable way to inflict sleep, while a crucial and likely miss can lead to a loss.

Edit: added more to reasoning for sub and I change my stance on pain spilt, as it's only use on a pokèmon with such high HP is blissey, though it can be abused with prior damage and losing HP from making a sub.

 

[Salt]

Can someone please explain to me why there's doubt about allowing Substitute? First of all, it's just plain dumb that we would consider disallowing a move that is present in the movepool of every Pokemon that can learn TMs. It would make zero sense to make such a heinous flavor-based crime because we have the potential to become a minor inconvenience for Chansey. Without reliable recovery, 101 HP Substitutes prolong, but don't eliminate Chansey's ability to beat us. Consider the following scenario:

CAP 18 comes in on something it forces out and uses Substitute on the switch to Chansey.

Chansey uses Seismic Toss after CAP 18 does this:

252+ SpA CAP Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 130-154 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

After Chansey breaks the sub, CAP has to sub again, which Chansey can weaken with a Seismic Toss or use the turn to use Soft-Boiled. The cycle continues until CAP is too weak to use Substitute again. Allow Substitute. It does not make Chansey unable to beat us, and disallowing a move that is present in every TM-learning Pokemon's movepool is ridiculous.

 

[Burt Racecar]

I hope we all realise the movepool stage is the final opportunity we have of balancing this guy. We gave it no statistical disadvantage (bar attack as a dump stat), so we really need to limit its movepool in order to maintain a balance and still perform its function within the core. Therefore, have to be careful how much leeway we give it so that Lucario and Latias remain its optimal partners (e.g. disallowing Parting Shot. While that does help Lucario, it helps other sweepers better.)

So I change my stance on certain things, disallow all boosting moves, we want the core to be self-sustaining not the Pokemon itself. With defensive boosts it would turn into a bulky offense 'mon and it would not have to rely on Latias to tank some moves for it. Similarly with speed boosts, again, it could renders Lucario's position in the core shaky at best, the only advantage Lucario would have over CAP18 is access to priority moves.

Agreeing with what DLC said regarding Pain Split and Substitute, Pain Split is fine by itself but behind a Sub it could easily change from being a member of a core to an individual staller. I'm on the fence regarding pain split at the moment, but I strongly think we should disallow Substitute. Even though almost every Pokemon gets it (and that was my earlier argument for allowing it) it is capable of creating 101 subs that chansey/blissey can't break in one turn. That's not such a big deal by itself. Except for the fact that they're now our only reliable counters. Imagine Sub/Pain Split on these blobs, and if CAP18 carries toxic especially, it could probably outstall them.

Disallow sacrificial moves, but allow Memento, the harsh cost of using it makes it a more balanced option than parting shot. The defense drops are also high enough to ensure Lucario can set up or allow Latios to do what it needs to and therefore fits in the core (even though it could easily benefit a plethora of other pokemon)

Disallow all hazards, especially Sticky Web, these cause far too many functions out of the core. With Sticky web, 18 would most likely become the best web setter in the current meta, and would probably find itself pigeonholed into the role of a hazard setter.

I don't know how to feel about Dual Screens, they do allow Lucario to set up. Would Reflect, Light Screen and Memento be a common set? If so, aren't we taking what we want CAP18 to do away from it, that is deal with Aegislash, Azumarill, Mawile, etc? In this case it becomes a fodder just so Lucario can set up, I don't see Latias providing anything in this instance.
Also say we only run Dual Screens and Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, we could tank plenty of hits and deal enough damage back with this coverage to knock a huge chunk out of most teams AND we don't even need the core. I think we should disallow Dual Screens.

That's all I've got time to say right now, I'll be back later to throw in an opinion on weather if it's still necessary.

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

I'm not part of the project, and I'm not an expert on battling, but every fully-evolved Pokémon except for Wobbuffet and Ditto can learn Substitute. So while I can't say for certain that you should allow Substitute, I can say that if you're building a Pokémon and you're disallowing Substitute, Substitute better be pushing it to a MegaKhan level of "obvious Uber". Disallowing Substitute should be done only if that is the ONLY solution to keep the moves that define the CAP and not make it broken. I'm not informed enough to have more of an opinion than this, but I hope this helps.

 

[farmer Potato]

Protect.

Why is this even a thing? It should be Allowed, maybe even required.

This is a standard move in any learnset of all Pokemon save Magikarp, Wobufett, and Ditto.

Now, its clones. Detect disallow. It does nothing anything Protect does not do.

Spiky Shield and King's Shield ban also. They have no use other than loling Aegislash that feel like Shadow Sneaking for some reason rather than high tailing the s*** out of there.