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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Concept Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Rising_Dusk, Nov 7, 2011.

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  1. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident zombie
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    Concept: Eliminating the weather
    Description: A pokemon that can effectively take on and eliminate all four weather starters in the current metagame. ​

    Justification: It's common knowledge that whenever you click the Find Battle button on PO you are most likely to run into a weather team. There is no 100% guaranteed answer to stopping all formes of weather. So you can have a rain team set up to take on sandstorm and sun but other rain teams give you problems. This is to see if there is a way to actually beat every form of weather with one type of team.

    Questions to be Answered:
    • Will this be a broken concept in the current OU meta?
    • Can it effectively take on every form of weather (primarily the inducers) without having to drastically change strategy?
    • Overall can this actually work?

    Explanation: It's pretty obvious that in the current metagame one single team cannot counter every current strategy being used. If played right you can give everything a run for its money but you are not guaranteed an equal fight. I'm pretty sure that if there's a pokemon that can take on weather (at least the inducers) it will finally debunk all the debating about whether weather is truly broken as a whole or not.
  2. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Wow! So popular! Not that I'm surprised, but I've got some meat to chew on as I discuss my thoughts on the concepts proposed so far. I'm not going to touch on all of them, so if I don't comment on your concept, let that be your feedback. It probably is too specific or too vague or really doesn't help to teach us anything. Check out the ones I do discuss and you'll see the type of concept you should aim to submit.

    Firstly, there are several concepts that are basically "This Pokemon has tons of versatility". These styled concepts lack direction, but more importantly promote creating CAPs that have too many options and don't teach members of the community anything. Please do not underplay the "Questions to be answered" part of the submission; if you are asking questions like "Will this Pokemon be too powerful?" there is a very serious issue with your concept.

    Secondly, I want to discuss the concepts that talk about either countering specific strategies very well. A lot of them sound like Tomohawk's concept, momentum! I don't want to reiterate Tomohawk with CAP 2, so anything that focuses on seizing momentum from specific strategies will probably not be slated. Keep that in mind; let's look for some originality here!

    Now for some specific discussion in order of submission..
    Hail is a very relevant concept, as I said in IRC. I think that now is a very useful time for hail to see some light, and it's just enough related to the Pokemon that I think it could be cool.
    This is really cool, and actually really interesting to think about. Theoretically a lot of things could be a fatal flaw. While most OU Pokemon have flaws, none have really fatal flaws except a few (Volcarona is a great example). What we could learn from intentionally weakening the CAP would create a great CAP process. My only concern is that it slightly lacks direction, and would require a lot of thought at concept assessment. Still, it could work well.
    It's a little broad is my first thought. While it can be sorted out in concept assessment, I can't really see myself agreeing with your questions to be answered as serious questions. There are a lot of Pokemon that benefit from field effects, and many of them are very well understood. I also don't see how it would make the Pokemon very unique or affect the metagame substantially. It seems like it would result in a very generic "New Pokemon", and I'm not really okay with that.
    I'm not sure how I feel about this. It's very one-dimensional, and there are already a lot of Pokemon with the ability to sweep in the way you describe. Sure, we could give it a gimmick, but this really isn't described in your concept. I'd think that a sweeper as you suggest under the Fatal Flaw concept would be much more interesting to develop and playtest than what you propose here.
    I don't really like stall, and I don't think that a CAP with a concept like this would result in an interesting process at all. I also don't know if I really think it's all that relevant. I mean, yeah, defensive teams have some trouble in BW, but I get the feeling that it's not something that's really necessary or called for. I'll think about this some more, but I'm not really digging it currently.
    Most of my comments for Leading the Barrier above applies here as well.
    This is actually quite interesting, as it not only forces us to think about Substitute and how it interacts with the metagame, but also about how to best it. I like it.
    I really like this concept. As a player, I know exactly what you're talking about when you discuss stress and psychological warfare. There are lots of ways to do this too, and it might be really exciting to explore. This is a solid concept.
    I think this is an awesome concept, but would be a really huge gamble. So many things can happen when you can have any single move in the game at the exclusion of others. The possibility for the Pokemon being broken is great, and the possibility that the project spirals out of control even greater. I am open and encouraging of discussion in this vein, though, because who honestly can say?

    Keep the concepts coming, and don't be afraid to discuss other concepts you like/dislike too!
  3. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    Concept: Tanking the Metagame

    General Description: This pokemon excells at taking hits, but unlike dedicated walls, it has a meaningful way to hit back.

    Justification: There are many great sweepers in the metagame for hyper offense, and a smaller but still usable number of walls for stallers. But one pokemon that can help both styles very well in 5th gen is a tank.

    Questions to be answered:

    -What attributes make the difference between popular tanks like Swampert and Hippowdon and less popular ones like Drapion and Cryogonal?
    -What kind of movepool do tanky pokemon need to distinguish them from walls?
    -How will the introduction of a new defensive+offensive threat affect the metagame?
    -Will the new tank be overly targeted against by battlers?

    Explanation
    One of my favorite pokemon to use in both late 4th gen (when I started playing competitively) and 5th gen is Swampert, who was one of my main sources of inspiration of this challenge. Swampert is still OU in this gen thanks to great typing and movepool and a decent BST distributed in just the right ways. But there are multiple other legal pokemon in 5th Gen that are almost never used, but have similar attributes. I'm interested in seeing what makes the difference between the Swampert, Reunicli (do I have that right?), and Conkledurrs and the Torterras, Drapions, and Porygon2s.

    An interesting way to take this pokemon could be to give it a stat spread more suited to special attacking, since so many of the the bulky pokemon are also physical attackers, differentiating CAP 2 from similar existing pokemon. CAP 2 also could use a type not normally associated with bulk, like Fire or Dragon. Also important to this pokemon is to have a decent attacking movepool no matter whether it attacks physically or specially, because unlike Blissey or Ferrothorn, it isn't here to sit there as setup fodder until Toxic racks up damage. Instead, CAP 2 would, under my idea, focus on dealing damage directly instead of waiting on status.

    Tanks make a big difference for stall teams and offensive teams alike, without being excessively slanted towards one side or the other. In fact, there are very fine lines in the current OU metagame between walls (i.e. blissey, ferrothorn, skarmory), tanks (i.e. Jellicent, Swampert, Hippowdon, Scizor), subpar balanced pokemon (i.e. Samurott, Lickilicky), and sweepers (i.e. Salamence, Terrakion, Heatran, Lucario). It will be a difficult process to make a pokemon who stays within the (admittedly small) section of the spectrum that belongs to tanks, without becoming overly stally or just weak in general (like Pyroak). Through the process, however, I think we can learn a lot about the metagame.

    Always welcoming constructive criticism on this idea, since it is very much a WIP.

    In addition to my own idea, I'd like to cherrypick a few ideas from posts around mine that I like.

    Korski's "Sketch Artist" looks fun to me, partially because unlike Smeargle, it could end up as something more than my entry hazard slave.

    Also a fan of JellyOs' "Complete the Trifecta" because IMO cores have died in favor of whole team strategies like Weather and Trick Room.

    Steamroll's "Eliminate the Weather" is also interesting to me, because I hate weather in general.
  4. Skore

    Skore

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    Name: The Annoyer

    General Description: A Pokemon that is blessed by having what are generally viewed as annoying or hax-like moves with a status or 2 to back it up as well as having access to a recover move or ability.

    Justification: Hax or Luck is something that many rail against but just as many players love to "play the odds" with strategies like Para-Flinching, Chain-phazing on top of entry hazards or using high critical ratio moves. If there was a pokemon designed to encompass all of these strategies, would people learn to work around it or would they instantly cry for a ban?


    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Is solely relying on moves with a secondary effect a truly viable strategy?
    • Could this pokemon be used vs a wide range of playstyles?
    • Could this pokemon be incorporated INTO a wide range of playstyles?
    • Would this pokemon need to have a vital flaw, such as poor offenses or defensive typing in order for the playerbase to justify it's annoyance factor?

    Explanation: I am aiming at a Pokemon that people will love to rage at, that when you see it pop up in team preview that you immediately start to wonder WHICH SET of annoying moves this one will be equipped with and maybe even which annoying ability it will be packing. It should also be a pokemon that you consider when building many types of teams as it's annoyance factor should not be one to skip over lightly.
  5. Birkal

    Birkal Caw.
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    Name: Ability Reliance-Punisher

    General Description: A Pokemon that can successfully strike the opponent's reliance on its own ability. While this individual could still utilize attacking moves or status to hinder the opponent's performance, this Pokemon functions best by punishing the opposing Pokemon for depending heavily on their ability for success.

    Justification: Ever since their inclusion in third generation, abilities have played a significant role in the Pokemon metagame. Some threats rely on their ability to succeed much more than others; some are even defined by their ability and tiered consequentially. This Pokemon would aim to attack its opponent's trust in their own ability to become a feasible threat. We would essentially meet all three of the goals outlined by our TL in the original post:

    • Has a positive effect on the metagame: This concept focuses on the equalization of abilities, which allows Pokemon with sub par abilities to become more viable while taming over-dominating ones, such as Chlorophyll, Magic Guard, and Multiscale.
    • Allows us to learn more about the metagame: True understanding for this concept would require categorization of abilities while asking a variety of questions about the importance of abilities and the roles they fill.
    • Introduces a new niche in the metagame: An Ability Counter is an entirely new niche that has hardly been explored, if ever. Removing the opponent's ability and/or abusing the opponent's reliability on their ability is rarely utilized in today's metagame.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Which threats in today's metagame rely heavily on their ability? Which don't?
    • Which abilities cause centralization? How so?
    • Can removing that ability or punishing the opponent for have a great ability decrease their viability?
    • By hurting a Pokemon for using their ability as a crutch, would other, less-viable Pokemon with lackluster abilities become more popular?
    • What determines what is a good ability and what is a poor one? Can abilities be "tiered"?
    • Is a Pokemon defined by their abilities? To what degree? Furthermore, does an ability play a significant role in Pokemon selection in terms of team building?
    • Is an ability defined by the Pokemon who have access to it, or by other factors?

    Explanation: Abilities play a huge role in today's metagame and often make or break a Pokemon. Dragonite, the top threat is BW OU, worked its way up through its game-making ability Multiscale. Many other Pokemon have arisen from the depths of "never used" simply because of their abilities, from Water Absorb Gastrodon to Dry Skin Toxicroak. This is likely due to the advent of the Dream World releasing new abilities to shake up today's metagame. The recent addition of the manor to the Dream World has brought two new threats into the OU scene: Magic Guard Alakazam and Prankster Sableye. To underplay the value of abilities is a serious mistake; they have become the defining factor of many Pokemon.

    While new abilities induces a positive effect on the metagame, it also has a very serious negative consequence in the form of banning. In the most recent Suspect Vote, both Excadrill and Thundurus were shipped off to the Ubers tier. This was due, in part, to their abilities. This is quite a shame, since both Pokemon fulfilled new niches in BW OU: Excadrill was a speedy fast Rapid Spinner with considerable bulk while Thundurus was a frail but powerful Electric-type attacker. But with their banishment, we have lost the valuable niches that they once fulfilled, decreasing the variance in today's metagame.

    Furthermore, certain abilities decrease the viability of certain playstyles. Just the fact that Serene Grace Jirachi exists means that teams are required to have at least one Pokemon that can outspeed the incoming Iron Head / Body Slam and threaten it off of the field. The release of Drought Ninetales and Drizzle Politoed has played a gigantic role in the molding of how we play, which has decreased the viability of weatherless teams. Furthermore, the advent of Drought and Drizzle propitiates the viability of weather-abusing abilities, like Chlorophyll and Swift Swim (the latter was banned for being too centralizing of an ability). Espeon's Magic Bounce added a whole new dimension to Baton Pass teams that put the entire move up for consideration in the Suspect Round. While abilities add new playstyles and make certain Pokemon usable, they also have the negative effect of decreasing the viability of other playstyles.

    This is the point where my submission steps in. Abilities play both a positive and a negative role in today's metagame; this concept is designed to decrease the wide and untamed gap between the two. By punishing the opposing Pokemon for relying on their great ability, perhaps the metagame will become less centralized upon those abilities and open up a door for less-viable Pokemon to become desirable. As another bonus, Pokemon would no longer necessarily need to be banned due to their ability pushing them over the edge of "brokeness", as was the case with Excadrill and Thundurus.

    I'm not going to lie, this concept is going to take a lot of creativity. We'd have to consider utilizing rarely-used moves in a competitive sense. Furthermore, abilities that punish the opponent's self-reliance are currently under appreciated could be called upon into allowing this strategy to work. While at first glance it might seem impossible to execute this concept, there are a variety of ways to achieve it, even without the aid of customized abilities/moves. Remember, this is an almost entirely undiscovered aspect of the metagame. We'd have to delve through many possibilities and bring forth numerous discussions in order to achieve our goals in pulling off this concept. However, it can certainly be done! We would learn about an aspect of the metagame that is barely touched, simply due to poor distribution of moves and abilities that punish ability reliance. The reason this concept seems so foreign to some degree is because there is nothing like it in today's metagame. Please don't let that fear frighten you away from this submission! GameFreak has given us the tools to create this niche (read: we don't need customized abilities and stats). It will simply require that we put our thinking caps on in order to find methods that truly exploit the opponent's reliance on their own ability.

    Thanks for reading!
  6. cartercr

    cartercr

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    First time in the CAP project :D

    Name: What's a moveset?

    General Description: A Pokemon with great stats, but very limited movepool to work with. Perhaps it could have one or two niche moves that make it worth using.

    Justification: Pokemon such as Breloom give us an interesting metagame. One niche is sometimes all it takes to become a supreior choice in OU. If one move was given that stands out above the rest, perhaps it could take care of a "mediocre" movepool.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    - Can one Niche move make up for a terrible moveset?
    - What kind of niche can be filled in the current metagame?

    Explanation: Spore for Breloom, Iron Head for Jirachi, these types of niches give some Pokemon good viability in the metagame. I think that a Pokemon excelling at one particular niche but with a limited moveset outside of that could become a very powerful asset for any team.
  7. Nintendoofus

    Nintendoofus

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    I like that Ability Reliance Punisher concept, and would find it interesting to see how it could be done. It'll be a good experiment on abilities for certain Pokémon and could certainly change the way we play if certain Pokémon are affected. As you say, the concept will require creativity. I for one can imagine a bulky user of Mold Breaker with some other tricks up its sleeve, since many of the mold breaker Pokémon are not that great defensively, or maybe another ability (perhaps klutz to trick toxic orbs from Gliscor?). This is just me though, and I'm sure other people will have ideas for what to do with it that are better than mine. If it is chosen I'll enjoy looking forward to its development.

    As for my own concept, it is now only in hindsight alongside the words of Rising_Dusk that I see the similarity between Tomohawk and the concept. Sorry about that! :3
  8. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    With some refinement; I could draw a lot of similarities between Skore's Annoyance concept and bugmaniabob's Psychological Warfare concept.

    A Pokémon dedicated to griefing the opponent could be very interesting to see. It would disrupt carefully-laid strategies and add insult to the injury, leaving the opponent frustrated and feeling a little bit violated. A good TCG example is Life's Finale from Magic: The Gathering - not only does it destroy all creatures in play, but it then allows you to search your opponent's deck for three creatures and send those to the graveyard as well - the deck search is insult to the more direct injury.

    How we could go about a griefing concept can be determined later, if either of the mentioned concepts are chosen; but it's certainly a very interesting path available to us.
  9. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
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    Name: Hazard Guardian

    General Description: A top tier spinblocker that provides quality Spin Protection and can easily fit into many types of teams.

    Justification: It seems like, in this metagame, many Stall Teams choose to defer from using a Spinblocker, or at least opt to use a 'Pseudo-Spinblock' like Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn. This could be due to a few reasons, one of which is that Jellicent simply does not provide the Spin Protection that Rotom-A did last generation, or the fact that Jellicent can't fit on a team and is often deferred due to the fact that the team calls for another Bulky Water to wall key OU Threats that Jellicent can't. Now that Excadrill is gone, it was assumed that Hazards would be ever-present, yet they haven't really skyrocketed, I believe that if a solid spinblocker emerges in the OU Metagame, more use of entry hazards will arise and stall as well as offense will benefit from them.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    What constitutes a "Good Spinblocker"?

    How much offensive and defensive capability will this Pokemon need to have to be able to fit into both offensive teams and stall teams smoothly?

    How prevalent will hazards be after this Pokemon enters the OU Metagame?

    How will this affect the viability of stall teams?

    How will this Pokemon fare against common Rapid Spinners in the OU Metagame?

    Explanation: This concept aspires to make hazards a driving force in the B/W OU Metagame like they were in the 4th Generation, and give Stall a small boost against the many offensive teams that appear on ladder, but also being able to maintain smooth synergy when used on Spike Stacking Offensive Teams or Balanced Teams. While Jellicent is considered the best spinblocker of the 5th Generation, it just doesn't cut it for some; the goal of this concept is to do what Jellicent and all of the other Ghosts cannot and emerge as the premier OU Spinblocker.
  10. jessifer

    jessifer

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    Name: Weather Wall

    General Description: A pokemon that is effective in stalling specifically in a certain weather.

    Justification: We have seen many pokemon that are generally consider effective only in weather, such as some Swift Swimmers and Chlorophyllers. (In OU, at least.) However, most of these pokemon are offensive. Types of "weather stall" (such as rain-stall) are used. However, the pokemon used generally can be used outside of weather as well.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    -How does this pokemon use weather to stall?
    -How does this pokemon fare outside of its weather?
    -Will the usage stall in weather increase?
    -Will the usage of the selected weather increase?

    Explanation: A wall designed to be used only in a certain weather should boost the use of weather stall, something I really don't see often. The typing of the pokemon should benefit from the weather or cover weakness of the weather.
  11. GtM

    GtM

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    I suppose the reason my concept didn't get through is because it wouldn't teach us anything we didn't already know from the target pokemon and past experience (ie all my examples :P)?

    So far, my favorites from the ones given are the Let it Snow and the Eater of Subs concepts. The former is cool because Hail is cool and it would be nice to see Hail get a little more of an even footing in comparison to the other weathers. It's also pretty versatile in that you could have a new Snow Warning mon, a Hail sweeper, or you could do something like put Ice Body on a pure-Water type to make an excellent bulky water for Hail teams. Cacturne gets Sand Veil so I'm sure this could work somehow. Eater of Subs is also pretty cool because the use of Substitute has largely been unexplored so far, and there'd probably be some creative solutions to getting rid of them. It might give us an opportunity for a Dragon type CAP, with Dual Chop to remove Subs and deal damage and Taunt to prevent them from going back up. Encore is also a pretty good way to deal with Substitute users if you come in at the right time and you're fast enough, so that could work as a surprise option.
  12. WeatherEffectRain

    WeatherEffectRain

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    Name: Snoop

    General Description: A Pokemon built to study the opponents' and learn about their Ex: Moveset, while holding a moveset for several different plays.

    Justification: Rising_Dusk outlined in the first post that we should study the Pokemon itself and how it impacts the metagame instead of the metagame itself. What, say you, could do this better than something to "Get the answers out" of the opponent?
    This concept would tell us how working around in a match works out, and how the different plays will effect it: undoubtably, finding out what set the opponent is running would open up a chance for something else, and make hard countering or checking that much easier.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    - How useful is it to know the opponent's Set?
    - How would players choose to avoid them from learning their set, orwould they at all?
    - If so, what could you accomplish in the added turn? Would it be enough to change the game in your favor?
    - Would this Pokemon be obsolete against Pokemon who typically run few variants?
    - Would having this Pokemon around(In Team-preview) warrant different plays?
    - Would this simply be figured out and become obsolete due to different threats?

    Explanation: A Pokemon of this caliber would take some getting used to; Something that can, say, as an example, come in on Dragonite's DD or Sub and immediately make it want to switch out, would be very interesting indeed. Like those, it may run a multi-hitting move and immideately threaten all substitute users. Of course, once you know it has a Multi-hitting move, X could switch in. So, it would come to pass the question of: What's the set he's running? If he has X, then Y would come in and wall him, amirite? Or maybe you could run U to beat Y... but then T might be able to wall you. And if you run something to beat T, you may lose out on something; It's the dreaded four-moveslot syndrome, and it may help with this CAP's plan... Knowing their set.
  13. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    Name: Ultimate Revenge Killer

    General Description: A revenge killer can have an answer to everything in the meta and it can have all of them at the same time, but through some handicap is prevented from an actual sweep.

    Justification: Today's metagame is centered not around a battle for momentum, but more a game of capture-the-flag. Sure, momentum can go back and forth early and mid-game, but in BW OU I've been finding that either you sweep or you lose most of the time. By introducing an ultimate revenge killer, offensive Pokemon will be hampered, so that once the Dragon dances the game isn't necessarily over.

    Questions to be Answered:

    • How do we cripple a powerful Pokemon from obtaining a clean sweep?
    • How do you steal back momentum from Pokemon that are fully set up?
    • How do we fit a tailored move pool on an offensive Pokemon without breaking it?
    • How do you defeat a Pokemon with an array of strong moves?

    Explanation:

    I, personally, would feel this concept to be a failure if it was not able to stop Dragonite, the most potent threat in the game. Further, I believe that this Pokemon would be much more threatening to Hyper Offense than to Stall due to the fact that HO teams are easier to kill.

    You all should have thought of the same Pokemon upon reading my topic title: Gen IV Heatran. In fact, this is more or less exactly how I would like this Pokemon to function. While Heatran could take a hit and demolish everything in sight, it was confined to simply revenge killing by a few different things: 1) It was mandatorily choice-locked; whether banded, specked, or scarfed, I think this is rather important, as the ability to switch moves is what broke Krillowatt in my opinion. 2) It lacked access to any boosting moves. Again, that's important, because a revenge killer should switch in and back out, and aside from a late-game clean should not be able to stay put for long. 3) It had an exploitable weakness. If Heatran ever got too big for its britches, Earthquake was (and is) the strongest physical move in the game and it would quickly learn its place. As such, it was not able to switch in often and mostly had to come in after a kill.
  14. Libelldra

    Libelldra

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    Name:No such thing as a free switch

    General Description:A pokemon designed specifically to counter switching beyond just hazards. Something for countering U-Turn, Volt Switch, Baton pass, not just the standard switch out that pursuit deals with.

    Justification:In todays metagame, there are many pokemon that abuse moves that allow them to switch, passing boosts, netting free damage, and avoiding things like pursuit and magnet pull. Hazards can only go so far to discourage this, there needs to be a solid counter, something that all abusers of these moves would fear.

    Questions To Be Answered:


    • How much do teams rely on moves that allow them to switch?
    • Is there really a way to counter things like U-Turn and Volt-Switch?
    • What happens to the usage of Pokemon relying on these moves once that option isn't completely viable?
    • How far would such a Pokemon go in stopping Baton Pass teams?
    • Would such a Pokemon be over-centralizing?

    Explanation:This Pokemon would be mainly designed to deal with the pokemon that abuse switching moves, i.e. Scizor, Rotom-W, etc. It would need to be able to abuse the most common builds, and greatly discourage the opponent from using those moves through its various unique aspects, including movepool, typing and abilities. It would also need a little unpredictability, to become difficult to out-predict with said switching, as well as a way to deal with the other switching move, baton pass.
  15. spitze

    spitze

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    Priority

    Name: Priority

    Description: A pokemon that relies largely on priority moves for damage, such as mach punch and shadow sneak.

    Justification: With the speed of today's meta-game, it would be good to have a pokemon that could take down a lot of the faster, frailer threats. This would leave places for slower, bulkier pokemon.

    Questions:
    Is this strategy viable?
    If it is viable, would it be overpowered?
    Would more slower, bulkier pokemon actually be used?

    Explanation: Speed is a huge factor in the meta-game, leaving otherwise solid pokemon behind because they are slightly too slow, while not having the bulk of a wall. This pokemon would take out the faster threats so slower pokemon can excel.
  16. cartercr

    cartercr

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    Outside of pursuit, is there really a way to effect something that switches out? Magnet Pull stops switching for Steel-types, and Shadow Tag stops others, but switches based on the use of a move can only be effected by Pursuit, right?
  17. Libelldra

    Libelldra

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    Pursuit only stops switching if you choose it. It does nothing against U-Turn, Volt Switch or Baton Pass. That's what this Pokemon would be designed to deal with.
  18. Lady Salamence

    Lady Salamence is a three-dimensional retard.
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    How would it do that?
  19. Nintendoofus

    Nintendoofus

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  20. Solstice

    Solstice

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    Name: Defensive Stat-Upper

    Description: A Pokemon that can use moves to increase its Defense and Special Defense to its advantage.

    Justification: In the current metagame there is no Pokemon that can use moves to increase it's defenses to become a more powerful threat. In a metagame filled with powerful hitters, Conkeldurr, Reuniclus, etc. having a wall who can actually increase their defensive capabilities to have a better chance of defeating the opponent doesn't exist. This concept would allow us to see how a wall could fulfill such a position while still supporting the group.

    Questions:
    Can a wall be able to set-up their stats while still supporting the team?
    Is it possible to counter an offensive set-up strategy with a defensive set-up?
    Why can't other Pokemon use this strategy effectively?
    Is a set-up wall possible to acheive despite type weaknesses?

    Explanation: In the opening post Rising Dusk said that instead of a Pokemon that has a unique affect on the metagame, how about a unique Pokemon that has an effect on the metagame. This idea brought me to my concept, because there is no Pokemon that fulfills this niche. The possible exception may be Cosmic Power Sigilyph, but with Shared Power half of it's ability rests in the power of its offense, which isn't what is supposed to be acheived here. Defensive Stat-Upper is based on the idea that higher defenses can be used to wear down the opponent through a slow damage system, abilities like Rough Skin, status, phazing and hazards, etc. It would allow us to explore an entirely new niche in the metagame, especially with the inclusion of Team Preview. If you know you can be defensively set-up on, how is this going to affect your strategy?
  21. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck you spin mine head right round right round
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderator
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    Name: Hazard Abuser, Not a Hazard User

    General Description:
    A Pokemon designed to take advantage of entry hazards as fully as possible to either cause damage to the opponent, discourage them from switching, or cause as many switches as possible. However, this pokemon does not actually have the ability to lay entry hazards.

    Justification:
    This metagame is possibly the metagame most centered around hazards yet. We have Deoxys-S and Ferrothorn, both two examples of nearly perfect hazard platforms. Nearly every team carries a spinner as well. In fact, more than any previous gen, the ability to keep hazards on your opponent's side of the field and off of yours is crucial to the outcome of the game. However, instead of simply being a hazard layer, it should be the perfect pokemon to take advantage of its teammate's hazards, whether it be by forcing switches (this is very broad) or by completely requiring on that hazard damage to net crucial KOes for a cleanup sweep.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    (See rules below.)

    • In what ways do hazards help teams?
    • How crucial are hazards to the outcome of a game?
    • How do hazards affect different playstyles and team archetypes, i. e. stall, balance, and offense?
    • How can a Pokemon be reliant on hazards to function?
    • In what ways can a Pokemon take advantage of hazards?
    Hopefully, if we do choose this as the concept, we'll be able to "hazard a guess" at these answers don't kill me

    Explanation: (Whatever you want to say here.)
    Part of the reason that I am submitting this concept is that there are simply a ton of directions we could take this in. We could make it a scout to force switches, a Pokemon with an unpredictable moveset to force switches, a cleanup sweeper with stats designed to make it just miss out on certain koes unless hazards are down... we could make it a lure for common spinners, etc. It could even be a Leech Seeder or Encore user (but I don't think we'd be making a second Whimsicott :X). It would be a good idea to have it synergize with spinblockers/hazard layers, but it's certainly not a must.

    What I do think is important is that we don't make the "perfect hazards platform" as making a perfect hazards layer is essentially a bulky Pokemon with Prankster and Gastro Acid that is also a Ghost-type. I don't see us learning much from that, but the idea of a perfect "hazards abuser" is much more open-ended.

    As I've said before, hazards are absolutely crucial to the BW metagame, and they definitely deserve further attention. Yes, we could take it the other way and make an ultimate rapid spinner, but that was... Excadrill, and I don't really want to repeat that again. On the other hand, an ultimate hazards abuser would allow us to see the extent of how hazards can affect the metagame, and while it's difficult to tell what the effect would be from just theorymonning, making this the CAP project would certainly help us on our way to discover just how hazardous BW can be.

    EDIT: I also explained my point later in the thread so I'd like to add on here.
  22. Libelldra

    Libelldra

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2011
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    That is the big question. How could anything stop it bar perfect prediction? With the right moveset combined with the right ability, it might just work. I have a few ideas of how this could work, but I'm pretty sure I can only post concepts, not specific typings or builds in this specific thread.
  23. Paradox

    Paradox

    Joined:
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    Guys please make sure that your concept isn't a rehash of something already posted, I can already see a lot of those - just read the thread.

    I'm just going to comment for now, I don't really have any concepts that are ready for submission yet. Warning, long-ass post, mostly feedback directed towards concept-submitters:

    Show Hide
    This is definitely a solid concept. Weather is still a huge part of the metagame, but I think it has been toned down enough that Hail will have a viable chance of matching up to the others with a real all-star core weakness-coverer or abuser.

    Things to look out for are not just making a slightly better example of already existent abusers (e.g. things like a Ice Body staller or a Bulky BlizSpammer like Kyurem). Cool things would be stuff like a Hail Ferrothorn-in-the-rain who can take on stuff like Bullet Punch/Iron Head, Fighting attacks, Fire attacks, and maybe deal with stuff like Stealth Rocks the same way Ferro tanks Electric, STAB rain-boosted water attacks and more (there is probably a better example but I can't think of one right now). I also like how this would kick Dragonite's ass (directly or indirectly).

    This one seems a little weird, is this mon just meant to be something you can throw on a Clear Skies team to counter weather teams, or should it be able to abuse all weathers regardless of what you are using? I don't see how something like this could be that feasible – you mention Volcarona and Gliscor, but lets face it, Volcarona is much, much better on a Sun team (and it won't be running Hurricane if you're just using it against a rain team), and I wouldn't consider Gliscor an "abuser" in either weather (although I guess it doesn't take SS damage so it can stall in it...), its just that its a pretty good 'mon regardless of the weather. If that's what you're looking for than we already have plenty of those. I like the weather approach I'm just not sure if this is the best way to go about it.

    I kind of skipped over this before but I do kind of like it. Something that needs lots of team support but is deadly with it. At the same time that seems pretty similar to stuff like Cloyster who usually comes with screens, but still interesting.

    I honestly like this approach to weather a lot more. To be fair it may be a little late as non-weather teams are becoming more and more viable, but weather is still undeniably dominant and it'd be neat to see how this guy could really shut it down. The only problem I see is making sure that this doesn't just become a throw-on to weather teams – being able to do damage to opponents when their weather is up and being really helpful against opposing same-weather teams (if that makes sense). Abilities like Snow Warning would work for that though...

    I don't think it's very fair to shut this one down because people (or you) "don't like stall" Dusk... If people don't support it then it won't win (and that will probably be the case to be fair – "Save Stall" got little support back when stall was way more fucked). I still think this is a very interesting concept, stall is definitely in a rough spot right now (although rain stall does fine), it's just not always everyone's favourite part of the game.

    Although this is super limited – to the point of rule breaking – it'd be nice to look at the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban and see if it's really worth it/reopen a pretty unique play style.

    Yeah this is cool.

    The concept is pretty neat, but really you can just go play DW or wait till Ditto is released to get about as good of an example of this as their is. I guess Ditto typically gets locked into a move which isn't great, but anything that really makes such a versatile check in a different way is going to be unbelievably powerful. It'd either be Scizor 2.0 with very powerful priority or be extremely fast and have the ability to OHKO most setup sweepers (or alternatively have the bulk to survive most set up attacks, which is a lot) – seems pretty crazy to me. Same thing applies to Pwnemon's similar concept.

    I'm sure this would be fun to do, and it'd be neat to find ways to make stuff like a Poison type excel without just giving it amazing stats or abilities – making it good not despite its typing but because of its typing. I'd like to see this reworked a bit because this shouldn't turn into "make a Reuniclus", a mon with a typically burdening typing but an incredible feature that just kind of ignores that.

    This is definitely one of my favourites so far, its a concept that would be really cool to work with and explore, and if pulled of correctly could be pretty metagame-shaking. There are so many neat tools out there in Pokemon - Zoroak's ability, that unreleased one that Weavile is getting (steals items), and those attacks like Encore, Taunt, Knock Off, and much more that can just screw you over. Things could get quite creative here – stuff like Trick Room could be an option. I could see this being like a better focused Kitsunoh – whose Wispy Kit set could really piss people off, especially alongside solid offence and great typing.

    I don't really see how this could work to be honest. Is this possible game-mechanics wise (maybe if it learned Sketch as an egg move? I'd be curious to know). I just don't think this has nearly enough direction beyond giving something Sketch, that could be done with literally any Pokemon and it would be different each way. It'd also be really tough to balance this – with options like Shell Smash, Spore, and every powerful attack in the game it seems like it'd be too fine of a line.


    A lot of stuff like "Complete the Trifecta", "Tanking the Metagame", and "The Annoyer" seems really redundant with pokemon we already have to me (try Gliscor with Ferro and Jelli, meet Conkle/Reuniclus/half of the big BW threats, and "Jirachi"). Other things like "Ability Reliance Pusher" just don't seem well enough thought out to me. Sure that is a really cool idea, but how do you really think we could accomplish that? There's really nothing beyond Mummy, Skill Swap, Insomnia, and Befriend that would really affect all abilities, and those all have huge limitations (wasted turns or "have to get hit by a contact move")
    And concerning the Switching concept – how do you really plan to stop switching? It's not something that any ability has control over (at least Volt-Turn-Pass switching) or any move can stop apart from Taunt with Baton Pass. Maybe if you phrase this as something that could punish Volt-Switchers it'd make more sense (think stuff like Fire Body to burn U-turners and Ground-typing to take advantage of Volt Switchers.) Just something to think about, don't just assume that we'll be able to solve any inconsistencies in a concept later in the process.

    TL;DR: Nice work guys!
  24. Temperantia

    Temperantia

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Name: "The Balancing Act"

    General Description: In a metagame that rewards focus on one or two stats, most of the original generation's more balanced Pokemon have fallen to the wayside. In theory, a Pokemon that has average stats all around is defined entirely by its options or other traits. If we create a Pokemon with only "average" stats, we will be forced to find other ways to define its niche.
    Note: This Pokemon should have a definable and viable role that is characterized by factors other than stats, not be a "Jack-of-all-Trades."

    Questions to be Answered:

    • To what extent can a Pokemon with balanced stats have a niche?
    • How much support in the form of abilities or moves does an "only-average" Pokemon need to excel in its role?
    • Can a Pokemon maintain its role while still containing aspects of other types of Pokemon? (i.e. at what point can a wall have decent attacking abilities without becoming a bulky attacker)
    • Ultimately, just how much do stats affect a Pokemon's viability?
    Explanation:

    Remember Poliwrath? He's that great Drizzle user, Politoed's, older brother. Much like Politoed, Poliwrath has rather... mediocre stats. His stats are all around 70-90, and thus, he's a very confused little Pokemon who has been skulking in the NU tier for quite awhile despite his amazing and almost unique offensive typing.
    Politoed on the other hand, has climbed to the top of OU due to his amazing ability in Drizzle. Remember, this is despite having the exact same BST as Poliwrath.
    Now, I'm not saying we do something as drastic as create a new weather starter, but what if we make another "average" Pokemon that is able to sculpt its own niche?
  25. ShyGuy1221

    ShyGuy1221

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2010
    Messages:
    341
    I had two concept ideas I had in mind coming into this thread, and they were both already taken in the first two posts.

    I agree with Flarephoenix332 that hail is the least loved of weather conditions and I would to love to see how we can try to improve its viability. I would like to add that maybe a CaP made to counter the threats of hail could increase Hail's usage and be fun to make.

    This is a concept I had in mind for quite some time, but has been worded far better than I ever could have. All I can do now is list other potential directions this CaP could move towards. A powerful sweeper that dies to most forms of priority; a defensive mon deathly weak to common attacks (like EQ or boltbeam). There are so many possibilities with this one.
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