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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, May 11, 2012.

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  1. Yllnath


    Dec 18, 2008
    I'm very much so against Drought, not because I feel it's overpowering or anything. It just feels that we are doing two projects at once. I thought we voted for the concept of exploring how to make over an otherwise bad typing, not a concept of making the ultimate weather-mon.
    All the arguments for Drought are considerably much more aimed at giving more viable playstyles and more playtime in the process. Is this really necessary? If we would just give CAP3 some STAB moves now and kick it into the metagame, would the concept utterly fail immediately? I personally don't think so. Why does every CAP that we need to make have to end up in the top 10 before we satisfied our own ego's enough to be proud of it.

    I feel that's really what Drought's only purpose is in this CAP. Make it even more versatile, regardless of what the original concept was we're pursuing.

    In that sense, the only viable argument I've read in this entire thread, is FlareBlitz making a case for Intimidate. He actually reaches back to the typing, tries to find out what qualities may yet be found in the typing that we can emphasize, without messing with the general direction of CAP3 or threat list that we decided upon, and made a solid and valid point about how Intimidate could be used.
    Through just that one alinea, I'd already be more inclined to support Intimidate than Drought, because it really does nothing to bring out more potential out of the typing, which is what the concept is about in the first place. It's just slapping on a different role that even something as bad as Ninetails can perform in OU, basically guaranteeing CAP3 game-time in OU one way or another. Whether that actually counts as a decent form of trying to make over a typing? :O I seriously can't see how that's the case.

    Anyway, since Intimidate is not slated in Deck's latest mock-up slate, because the basis of that slate seems to rest only on whether or not that the new ability can be considered competitive in comparison to Dry Skin, I'd like to ask Deck a question:

    If we would vote No Competitive Ability, and we would again return to the ability discussion stage, where we need to decide on the non-competitive ability for CAP3, are we then still limited to the true non-competitive ability like Honey Gather/Pickup/etc?
    Or would every ability that we are now just blatantly crossing of the slate, simply because they are lesser than Dry Skin be up for discussion again?

    I personally don't give a damn about R_D's somewhat elitist argument that "Any 'decent competitive battler' would never pick xx ability over Dry Skin if that were to be chosen". After which he mentions MagicWatt. Yet I still remember clearly how darn effective the single trace set was on certain teams, even if only for unpredictability.

    I don't think I'm the only one here that would love to see a secondary ability, that would normally fall under the competitive ability classification, but are not strictly competitively comparable to Dry Skin at this point. A secondary ability and perhaps even a tertiary (DW) ability that both only deal with minor niche add-ons, that are much more pinpoint focused on bringing certain aspects of CAP3 typing to live. For example, poison's resistance to walling fighting. Or CAP3's already current ability to wall half of the volt-turn strategy, where a simple volt absorb would make it a full wall to this particular strategy.
    Minor ability additions, while still in comparison to Dry Skin possibly somewhat underwhelming or less competitive, yet ability additions that are much more focused on bringing a potential of the typing alive and giving it a minor viable niche next to the existing fire-type-walls-rain play style that we designed for it.

    Going back to my question to DK. If voting NCA would mean that in a second round of deciding NCA's, we would be allowed to pick stuff like Intimidate or Volt Absorb, or what have you, then I'd say that of these 3, No Competitive Ability is sounding damn good right about now, and I feel is the only option in this slate that actually resonates at all at what the original concept is about. Weather may be unexplored grounds for CAP, but this concept isn't weather exploring. Leave the weather exploring for CAPs where we choose for a weather concept.
  2. Wyverii

    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 1, 2008
    I'd like to post support for drought.

    The vehement and actually scathing opposition to it is actually rather concerning. If you have to resort to name calling in order to get your point across then it probably wasn't a strong arguement in the first place.

    To me Drought is a fantastic opportunity for this CaP. It's duality with Dry Skin is nothing short of amazing. The typing really works in our favour with both of these abilities. It's very rare that we get to make something that looks so, deliberate. So well engineered.

    I would really love to see what would happen if we were to release Dry Skin/Drought into the metagame. Regardless what happens, whether one overshadows the other or if they're both roughly equal it would be incredibly interesting data to see. It's very easy to knee jerk reaction and say Drought is too powerful, but I think people are forgetting how powerful Dry Skin is with our typing, and how bad the typing is in general as per the concept.

    I honestly do hope it happens. We might never get another chance to do something like this again.
  3. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

    May 13, 2010
    I disagree with deck knight (or whoever said it first) that ability 2 needs to be as good as dry skin.

    We built this CAP, to this point, around dry skin, so the odds of other abilities being as good on our CAP is low, but that doesn't mean we give up and just give it a flavour ability.

    A Sunshine Ability gives our CAP some actual use on sun teams.
    Vital Spirit/Limber/Insomnia lets our cap come in on pretty much any status attack with complete immunity.
    Arena Trap combined with its immunity to WilO'Wisp and Toxic makes it a situational counter to status walls.
    Regenorator gives it at least SOME use to heal stealth rock damage outside of rain or a water switch-in
    Levitate removes our CAP's water immunity, but gives him a ground immunity which he desparately needs.

    Just saying, every ability listed there has a purpose and gives our CAP an alternative use. Is it as good as dry skin? maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't HAVE to be, it just has to be functional.
  4. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 29, 2011
    Yeah, in retrospect, supporting Drought pretty much eliminates Water Absorb as a tertiary competitive ability, as running Drought CAP3 would be completely better than running Water Absorb CAP3 + Ninetales. In that case, full steam ahead for Drought as second ability! After that, we can either go for a flavour ability (which can still be good, it just won't be used over Dry Skin or Drought that much realistically) or just keep it to two abilities.

    I also wholeheartedly agree with Wyverii's post. Dry Skin + Drought is going to lead to CAP3 being used in completely opposite roles, and I think it's a great opportunity to explore the duality of a pokemon that can function well in both weathers. :)
  5. Juicy


    Jun 7, 2011
    If Cap 3 gets drought it makes the Dry Skin vs Drought vote pointless. I am completely against it.

    We already have a direction for CAP 3 that Drought will completely demolish. We will be moving in an different direction. Not that I am against that direction but it completely undermines the effort and thought put in so far- Dry Skin will not be used. It will be completely eclipsed ...Unless someone can tell me a reason why we should use Dry Skin CAP 3 and not Drought CAP 3? Which we have not seen much off in this discussion, maybe because there is no argument that Dry Skin will be eclipsed?

    I think the voters have already spoken and this seems like a new wave of 'trying-to-get-drought-in'.

    We already know what Drought does to an underwhelming typing in Ninetales. Can't we explore something else instead of going along old ground that gamefreak has already supplied for us. I don't particularly want this cap to be a a project for creating a replacement/better sunny day starter.

    All that said, status is a horrible thing that cripples any pokemon. What better way to compliment this CAPS's typing (and therefore in fitting with the concept) by introducing a status immunity such as Limber/Insomnia. It does give our little CAP a useful niche other than the one already given to it in 'the status absorber.'
  6. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

    Apr 15, 2010
    I would like to propose the ability Harvest as cap 3's secondary typing. Harvest would allow the cap the option of moving out of the rain and into the sun without forcing it to. become a dedicated sun sweeper. Harvest could also allow the cap to counter the water Pokemon we want it to by using a water resistant berry, which in conjunction with sun, allows it to shake off byproduct pumps as if they wer water guns. Furthermore harvest would still keep the focus on the actual typing of cap, since the ability does not feature the support value that drought almost certainly will. Harvest could also allow us to fully explore offensive capabilities of cap as well as its defensive abilities. Considering that cap could use a dragon resistant berry to take on dragonite or a suture berry to become an all purpose wall, harvest could give sun that tiny leg up it wants to be able to compete with the other weathers while not over shadowing the potential of cap 3 in rain. Just something to consider.

    Edit: I made a mistake and forgot how damage reducing berries work. Cap 3 won't. E able to pull out the stops to counter dragon ire or anything like that, but it can use harvest to exchange immunity to water for neutrality to a possible super effective hit like stone edge, which could make it viable in sun all the same if that's what we want to go for. Also to those who believe this undoes the threat list we made, I think we should remember that we are trading lefties or lo for neutrality to a certain weakness, which I believe should be a reasonable trade.
  7. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 29, 2011
    Well the poll wasn't intended to allow only one of those abilities... it was just to pick the most preferable option. And Dry Skin will not be completely dominated by Drought, as Drizzle teams will still be able to put up a lot of resistance. Sure, Drought teams get something usable instead of Ninetales, but fundamentally they aren't much better than they were before. Furthermore, Dry Skin CAP3 shuts down both Fire and Grass types extremely effectively if it can avoid Earthquakes, so it gives Drizzle a good weapon against Drought teams too.
  8. verbatim

    verbatim The costume fits Just a little too tight
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Forum Moderator

    Jun 11, 2011
    Could you please flesh out your explanation a bit more because from my perspective your just stating things and failing to follow through on them.

    Dry Skin still will be usable if this pokemon gets Drought. As strong and as scary as Drought may seem, we have to realize that as a weather pokemon CAP3 is checkmated by Dugtrio. Once Dugtrio gets in (revenge kill) their is absolutely nothing you can do without resorting to the temporary Air Balloon.

    The big difference for the Dry Skin version is that you do not need to play protect the king with him to win the match. You can sack the Dry Skin (or for that matter ability three) version to get a crucial kill and not have your strategy crumple up and die.
  9. Juicy


    Jun 7, 2011
    I understand the poll was not just for one of those abilities, but as you say the most preferable option won out over Drought. To bring Drought back into the race just undermines what has already been voted in, instead of Drought. Drought discourages Dry Skin through many avenues. It gives double STAB, gives team support and also causes damage to any other Dry Skin users. Drought, with the bulk CAP 3 has can wall certain bulky waters anyway (which was the intention of Dry Skin been voting in) further undermining Dry Skin usage. It will therefore be taken in a completely different direction.
    Mostly what I am saying it that I am still unconvinced Dry Skin, that has won out over Drought, would be used if Drought got in on a second vote. It therefore makes the original vote of dry skin pointless imo

    Would we be playing protect the king with two sunny day starters? Also there will be no surprise as to what CAP 3's ability is. It either sets up the Sun or is a Dry Skin variant therefore the idea of giving CAP 3 drought covers no new ground, even when combined with Dry Skin. There's no surprise to it's ability which would be otherwise achieved if given Limber or otherwise. This is a discovery I hoped, not a project to make this CAP decidedly strong and never out of OU. It's already been done- Ninetales was a low tier pokemon, due to typing and stats. Even with these disadvantages it has been propelled to OU usage because of Drought. What CAP 3 will be doing is basically becoming a better alternative to Nintales or a set up partner. Do we really want to add to the weather wars?

    The basis of my point is:
    Yes, Drought helps our typing a lot. But has this already been explored with Ninetales?
  10. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1

    Jun 30, 2010
    Wyverii, I have the utmost respect for you, but....

    You said it yourself, if you have to resort to name calling then it wasn't a strong argument in the first place. Well, the positive equivalent is that if you have to resort to fanciful ideas coincidental things that look "so well engineered", then it wasn't a good argument.

    I hate to break it to you, but your post reads like its a person's dream, rather than necessarily CaP3's best interests. All I get from it is that you think Dry Skin and Drought look good together and that you would love to see the result of a Pokemon with both Dry Skin and Drought, almost like its an experiment. Which, while every CaP should be to an extent, isn't really sounding like an argument that's any better than what I've read against Drought.

    I for one am against drought because I feel the abilities should provide a general role which reflects the concept, and a secondary, more niche role which can be implemented in specific teams. Dry Skin's role is generally agreed to be quite general, as it grants the precious type immunity to Water as well as extra healing, while risking the Sun's extra damage. With Drought, it is not providing and extra niche role, it is redefining the purpose of the Pokemon, as CaP3 doesn't just threaten to be a sun-inducer, but an inducer and sweepr in its own right with STAB Fire attacks.

    To use an analogy, Drought CaP3 is like Trick Room Reuniclus or Rain Dance Kingdra, except without the need to waste a moveslot. In essence, it's what Reuniclus and Kingdra wish they had. CaP3 would become a Pokemon who threatens to be a powerhouse with no setup, and while it's no Infernape when it comes to wall breaking, it will still hit hard off that base Special Attack. We've all seen how effectively Reuniclus can be under its own Trick Room, but it has to survive a turn to set up TR in the first place. Now imagine if Reuniclus didn't need that one turn of setup. That's what I think Drought CaP3 will be the equivalent of. It may or may not be as effective, but with that base Special Attack stat, Drought will be like an instant setup, without having to waste a moveslot.

    I still think options other than Drought ought to be considered instead. I accept Adaptability is in a similar boat to Drought, but I allow it on account of it being limited to CaP3 alone, while Drought could potentially be taken advantage of by teammates as well.
  11. Screw-On Head

    Screw-On Head

    Nov 6, 2006
    I like forestflamerunner's idea for Harvest. It would be an powerful and versatile ability that hasn't seen much (if any) top tier play. Harvest would allow CAP 3 to function on a variety of teams while not overshadowing Dry Skin in competitive use. Sitrus Berry would be a powerful defensive option to help negate Stealth Rock weakness and residual damage from Sandstorm/Hail, as well as increasing general survivability against neutral and resisted attacks without negating it's weakness to powerful super-effective attacks. There is something poetically satisfying about taking 25% damage from Stealth Rocks, only to have that 25% damage help reach 50% health to activate Sitrus Berry for a 25% heal that exactly negates the Stealth Rock damage. Type resisting Berries would be interesting niche options that might help it a lot with specific match-ups, at the cost of very little general utility. The "pinch" stat-boosting Berries (if/when they are released) would have potential offensive applications that would take advantage of CAP 3's excellent Special Attack stat and moderately good offensive typing. Overall, Harvest is just a very versatile option that could go far to making CAP 3 a viable option on many teams without feeling "overpowered" or "cheap" and compliments the already excellent Dry Skin.

    The other ability I'm really liking the idea of is Regenerator. Besides the obvious benefit of helping against entry hazard damage and increasing it's overall bulkiness, it would also make CAP 3 a viable hit and run type Pokemon. Choice Scarf/Specs sets could be really valuable to many teams, and Regenerator would make such sets work, and work well. Like Harvest, Regenerator is a very powerful ability (but not overly so) that compliments Dry Skin and allows CAP 3 to be a complete competitive package.
  12. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 30, 2010
    So, I would like to bring up a few more points as to why Drought is not a good idea for this Pokemon. I honestly think that we have gotten too much away from discussing what makes a good ability in the first place. A lot of arguments I see on both sides are about how the other side is wrong, rather than how the ability actually is good or not. So I just want to throw out a few reasons as to why Drought is not a good idea for CAP3.

    Firstly, as was show very well already by FlareBlitz, Drought simply make CAP3 too strong for its counters. With incredible Special Attack and double STAB, naught but Tyranitar, Politoed and Flash Fire Pokemon can really switch in safely. Now, Tyranitar is indeed one of the counters we want, so that is not a problem. But all of the other counters we listed would no longer be able to switch in due to the massive damage they would take. Additionally, Politoed would essentially become a counter, and we have already decided we want to counter Politoed, not vice versa. I mean, its just a simple fact that the power provided by this ability to something this strong makes it near impossible to counter in the traditional sense. I mean, look at Politoed. Very few things in OU, even ones with a resistance can tank a Specs Toed Hydro Pump. And that if off of a much lower attacking stat. But really, the point is not that it is obscenely powerful. No, the point is that Drought lets it overcome its counters while doing nothing to actually help it fit the role we have chosen for it so far.

    Secondly, I just want to touch on what Deck Knight has said in one of his posts, specifically about disallowing Adaptability while allowing Drought. Now, I don't think Adaptability is a good ability for this CAP. Not at all. But the fact is that Deck said it was disallowed because "CAP3's STABs don't need an additional power boost when they have a 131 Attacking stat." Well, if that is true, then why is Drought even being considered. Outside of rain CAP3 might as well not have Poison STAB for all the good it does it (hell even in rain it is questionable), so a boost to STAB is essentially a boost to Fire moves. And you know what? Drought boosts them more than Adaptability. So if an ability is disallowed because it gives a boost to STABs, then Drought should not even be considered. And that is not even counting all the team support that it provides as well. For a Pokemon like this, Drought is essentially Adaptability++.

    Finally though, I want to mention something that I think may not be a competitive reason, but is important to consider anyways. As I and many others have said before, CAP is like a science experiment. And, no matter whether or not Drought is a good ability for the concept, it will skew the results of our experiment in a negative way, simply because Dry Skin is the first ability. What I mean by this is that, during the play test, as we all know, CAP3 will get a disproportionately large amount of use. Now, with Drought and Dry Skin, it would have two roles: Killing Water and Setting Sun. With both of those getting enormous amounts of usage who in their right mind would use rain? Significantly fewer people than in a normal stable environment. And when rain is not common, a water killer isn't needed. And when sun is common, Dry Skin is a negative. So suddenly, Drought is completely superior to Dry Skin. Now, as I said, this is not exactly what would happen in a standard competitive environment, but it is what will happen in the environment we have to work with. We have already decided we want to test out Dry Skin, and the decision to go with Drought will simply undermine that, as Dry Skin, at least during a skewed playtest environment, will be outclassed.
  13. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Was fun while it lasted
    is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 19, 2008
    I'm sure that no one is denying that Drought "fits the concept", though that statement in itself is rather dubious given the somewhat vague nature of the concept. Drought enables a boost to Fire-type attacks while at the same time the Poison-typing makes it immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes, two admirable qualities in a weather starter. Nobody can doubt that the efficacy of said CAP3 variant would indeed play to a good extent on the typing.

    The difference in opinion between those for and those against Drought comes at the point at which we ask ourselves "is this something we want?". On the one hand, Drought provides a very much sought-after, rare, and most importantly safe niche - there is no way in hell this thing will not be OU, unless we give it Ember as its only attack. On the other hand, Drought is large, unwieldy, and to a large extent unnecessary. But most importantly, I think, it is very much defining of the Pokemon it is given to. I have spoken before of the concept of an element being "distracting" - and Drought more or less entirely swallows up a CAP, regardless of what else we choose to give it. It will always have to be considered in the context of Drought. And that outshines anything else we may choose to give it. This is why I consider it a very unwieldy answer to a problem that doesn't really exist.

    It is interesting that Krilowatt has been brought up. One thing I learned from that CAP, and indeed from Kitsunoh, Colossoil, and the like, was that giving something a very powerful ability indeed with the loosest possible verification by the concept (this is not the case here, as the concept is so loose that it would be hard to objectively argue for any ability), it will become defined by it, regardless of the usability of the other option. When people see Krilowatt, they see Magic Guard, or rather they see recoil-less LO 95 BP STAB attacks. The Trace variant is a good utility counter, but the Pokemon itself is defined by the powerful ability.

    The case here is different. If we pick Drought, rather than having one ability that vastly eclipses the other (as Dry Skin is likely to be very much usable in its own right, and probably more usable), we have two abilities that to a great extent eclipse the typing. As I have said before, Drought CAP3 will only really be used on sun teams, as it can't switch in on any of the other 3 weather starters safely, and at that point is it really being used for anything other than Drought? As Rising_Dusk said and I happen to agree with, CAP3 lacks the power and very likely will lack the coverage of most of the Fire-type sun powerhouses. It will just be a Ninetales that isn't a liability - and I don't see that as really being interesting information.

    Interesting point, that of seeing what happens. As far as Drought goes, I'm not sure what we will actually learn from it that is of any interest to us. A Drought user with 131 SpA and Toxic Spikes absorption makes sun more viable? I very much doubt anybody here needs a playtest to work that out. We compare it to Dry Skin - all manner of questions pop up here - Will it be viable on rain teams? Will it be more viable on rain teams or against them? Will normal teams be willing to use it for that great set of resistances? Or will it just be another niche Pokemon?

    This is the reason why I am so much in favour of creating a new niche, as opposed to merely supplanting an existing one. With a new niche, there are questions to be answered and avenues to be explored - with an existing niche, there are remarkably fewer. This is not, of course, an argument against Drought - there are no abilities now, I think, besides Pure Power that can create a currently non-existent and at the same time competitively viable niche - but Drought is unnecessarily distracting and complicating to what is already a CAP that is trying to do a lot with a little. I would sooner see us concentrate on the Dry Skin niche and work towards cementing that than to try to do two things at once. To that end, I think that having No Competitive Ability is probably ideal.

    I do think that we've come a little too far in the CAP already to be seriously considering Drought, as Drought is one of those forces that really needs the CAP shaped around it, and I do not want to have the Dry Skin build compromised by any attempts to limit the power of the Drought build, as I feel that would be very counterproductive to what we are trying to accomplish here.

    Even so, I'm still more or less ambivalent towards Drought. Either way, I still want to concentrate on the Dry Skin niche. People in this thread seem to be very vocal in their support of Drought, and that's fine. More power to them. I will only entreat that we consider Drought as an afterthought rather than the main attraction, if it is selected.

    That's my opinion at this stage. I feel that this discussion has run its course - the battle-lines between Drought and non-Drought were already drawn up during the first ability stage, and any more debate is likely to merely be pointless bickering. Both sides have good reasoning and a good case behind them, but are unlikely to convince the others aside from being very loud and obnoxious, or else employing unpleasant rhetoric and hyperbole.

    EDIT @ RD: I see the flaws in that calculation, but they can only be taken to account if I had any point to make by making them. Hence my point in both cases was that "CAP3 is strong" and nothing more than that, unless it was "CAP3 can 2HKO Blissey with SR without the need of set-up or even a Choice item". The only comparison I made was with Kyogre, and both of them had the same nature regardless. Had I had a point to make I would have included further calculations. It was a qualitative observation based on the history of CAP giving unnecessary power to its creations, and nothing more.
  14. Jac

    Jac Yami-no ken yo... Kirisake!
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Jun 27, 2011
    After a much heated (lol) discussion in PS! with Verbatim/Aquaaa/Zt/Pwnemon, I think I have made my decision.

    Drought: I personally dont thin he will be made/broken form having Drought as an ability. He's kinda slow and not very bulky. Plus he's RKd by a lot. Heatran completely walls him. Terrakion/Tyranitar/Gliscor/Landorus all have power EQs to knock him down. Dugtrio is CAP3 worst nightmare. Also Politoed can stop the Sun. So it's not going to be more powerful with Drought.

    Also, another point to make is that just cause there is another Drought pokemon, That doesnt mean that Ninetales is going to be usurped from it's throne -whatever throne it wants to have at least...- People will simply choose to run both to keep the weather intact.
  15. ZhengTann

    ZhengTann Nargacuga
    is a Forum Moderator

    Mar 7, 2012
    This is after the verbal showdown (eh??) with Verbatim/Aquaaa/Pwnemon/Jac.

    I'd still rather be leaning towards a status-immunity for a secondary ability, such as Vital Spirit / Limber. Indisputably, the ability would give CAP3 niche in the metagame as a quasi status-absorber, which fulfils theorymon's proposition about making the typing a selling point using abilities/etc.

    Towards Drought, I'm ambivalent. Yes, it can still be checked, but notice that the threatlist just shrunk (I don't know about you guys, but it seems pretty noticeable to me). Basically only Heatran, Politoed and Tyranitar can switch in without taking a serious hit, while the rest can only hope for a revenge kill else they get neutered on a switch. Meaning, the potent threats turned into more of a soft check towards Drought CAP3.

    Regardless, if I may, I'd say that if Drought is chosen, we have to be extra careful when it comes to movepools, which isn't a good answer to the opposition, whom I believe are never sure about the unknown future. Can we say we'll not change the future we envisioned? Can we say we'll keep to our path? Those are the questions Drought supporters need to answer in order to convert the Drought opposition, in my opinion.
  16. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    May 28, 2010
    I would like to take a second to remind everyone that we are building CAP3 for the OU metagame. Not for the CAP metagame. I just want to make that clear. If you've actually been encouraging Drought just so Sun gets some love in CAP, like Rain, Sand, and even Hail have gotten, I'm sorry but that's not good enough. You must truly believe the best thing for CAP3 to fill its project goals is Drought. And I just don't see it.

    I'm not saying anyone has been secretly been doing this, but I know I've been tempted to...

    What it boils down to for me is clearly the movepool. If CAP3 gets the necessary movepool to make a Drought set good, it will potentially completely overshadow Dry Skin. We can't do this since Dry Skin is the primary ability. But if CAP3 doesn't than what is the point of Drought other than to make a buffed Ninetales?

    I don't see a way out of this snafu.

    Another problem I see is that, by nature, making CAP3 a Fire/Poison type will increase Dugtrio's usage meteorically in the playtest. This is inevitable (barring Levitate, which I still support... but got no comment on... It changes threatlist entirely while remaining unbroken). But you know what would make Dugtrio usage skyrocket even more? Making CAP3 a weather starter.

    I'm fine with weather. OU IS weather. I get it. I'm not stupid. The last thing I want though is a CAP to exacerbate weather + Dugtrio teams to the ridiculous.
  17. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    that's the problem i have with the name "primary ability" and "secondary ability." It has nothing to do with which we wish to have more use. it just has to do with which we voted on first.

    officially proposing that we change the name Primary Ability and Secondary Ability to Ability 1 and Ability 2

    to bmb: i was also arguing the point of "overshadowing" until i realized how silly that was. Is there a better typing for a Drought mon than Fire/Poison? not one I can think of (except maybe Poison/Flying to escape the clutches of Thugtrio). The best way to make the typing the selling point is to say "hey you can try to find a better typing to fill this role but good luck because there is none." Whether the typing is the MAIN point is virtually irrelevant.
  18. kevlarscale


    May 12, 2012
    Previously I rather stupidly posted limber as an ability,and I now see that that would never be used, but what if we gave it quick feet which would give it the ability to be the ultimate status absorber and even enjoy paralysis. Quick Feet would allow CAP 3 to out speed uninvested base 100's without any investment itself or out-speed max speed 130's with maximum speed investment. For those wondering when this would ever be used instead of Dry Skin, just remember that occasionally people use heatproof bronzongs because most people don't even try to use earthquakes on them, this may be the case with CAP 3 and quick feet, creating an interesting niche that could be useful on non-rain teams if they feel they have rain properly countered.
  19. The Reptile

    The Reptile ( ̄^ ̄)ゞ
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Sep 16, 2011
    The only problem with this is that if Sun or Rain is up, it becomes clear that CaPmon doesn't have Dry Skin, thus ruining the surprise. This is also why Heatproof Brongzong isn't used that much, if spikes are up, Brongzong takes damage and the surprise is ruined. Not only that, but you're going to be hard pressed to get CaPmon statused, as the only one it actually takes and abuses is Paralysis (Sleep makes going faster irrelevant), which still hinders it due to the chance of full paralysis.
  20. Imanalt

    Imanalt I'm the coolest girl you'll ever meet
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2010
    Most of what i would have said has already been said, so i would just like to throw my support behind Regenerator. I strongly feel that cap 3 should be usable in sun, as sun boost is one of the strong points of fire typing. This would be hugely helped by a good ability other than dry skin, and regenerator just seems like the best option for this. It patches up one of the big problems with fire typing in a SR weakness, and makes cap 3 viable in sun.

    My biggest objection to drought: Assuming we make cap 3 such that drought does not break it, its movepool will not be great. As such, sets using our third ability (if we gave it one) would be horrid in comparison, and so cap 3 would be ONLY useful in sun or rain, which i believe limits us more than we should.
  21. kevlarscale


    May 12, 2012
    Well this is true but CAP 3 could also run a very effective restTalk set probably with dual stab in the same vain as restTalk Heracross just with more bulk, more speed, and less power or maybe even a cro-Cap 3 if we decide to give it a boosting move.

    edit: also this was just an attempt to provide a slightly better ability than limber to make the 'Ultimate status absorber' role even more effective, and give it a better chance of being slated, which on the topic of drought I feel we should agree to slate it and argue then so that way potential new possibilities of ability will arise and not get lost in the drought discussion.
  22. prem

    prem failed abortion
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 25, 2011
    me discussing this topic with others in #cap (open)

    <prem> wait
    <prem> since when would dry skin be more viable than drought
    <prem> except on a rain team
    <+Quanyails> http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8189/temporaryfile.png <-- paintseagull:
    <bugmaniacbob> people without a water resist I guess
    <prem> i use ninetales to tank water attacks
    <prem> on sun teams
    <prem> cause in sun it can easily tankt hem
    <bugmaniacbob> that's news to me
    <prem> well
    <prem> it can take one or2
    <bugmaniacbob> well then, I suppose if you wanted something... hard-wearing
    <+Mos_Quitoxe> pretty newt~
    <prem> in sun
    <bugmaniacbob> not that this is going to be bulky in any way
    <bugmaniacbob> but still
    <prem> the water multiplier is
    <prem> .75
    <prem> ?
    <bugmaniacbob> I actually don't know
    <+Quanyails> In other news, that means I'm only fourth page of CAP art. D:
    <prem> i dont see it cutting it in half
    <bugmaniacbob> "decreases by 50%"
    <bugmaniacbob> what is that in mathematical terms
    <prem> honestly i have no idea :(
    <prem> does anything
    <prem> have
    <prem> 95/105 special bulk
    <verbatim> um
    <verbatim> *(1/1.50)
    <verbatim> ?
    <bugmaniacbob> yes verbatim
    <bugmaniacbob> I meant is it decrease by a factor of 50% or just subtract 50
    <prem> okay jellicent is close enough
    <bugmaniacbob> though your one is probably right
    <verbatim> i have no idea
    <prem> its probably a multipler
    <prem> not a
    <bugmaniacbob> I like how revising for english puts my mathematical ability to sleep
    <verbatim> oh
    <bugmaniacbob> or lack thereof
    * Flarephoenix (~Flare@synIRC-89505136.vdsl.bright.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
    <verbatim> decreased by 50%
    <verbatim> is just
    <verbatim> 1/2
    <verbatim> well
    <verbatim> 1.00-1/2
    <prem> Politoed@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Hydro Pump vs Jellicent (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 73.1 ~ 87% (242 ~ 288 HP) (sunshine)
    <erisia> ...what
    <prem> thats a fire/poison jellicent
    <prem> with
    <prem> 21 hp ivs
    <verbatim> ..........
    <verbatim> oh
    <erisia> oh, okay
    <erisia> lol
    <verbatim> someone should quote database
    <verbatim> just his original statement
    <prem> anyway
    <prem> no one actually uses specs toad
    <prem> Politoed (0 EVs, Neutral Nature) Scald vs Jellicent (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 23.5 ~ 27.7% (78 ~ 92 HP) (sunshine)
    <prem> what water types exist
    <bugmaniacbob> Starmie
    <prem> specifically ones that invest in offenses
    <verbatim> vaporen
    <prem> Starmie@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Hydro Pump vs Jellicent (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 61.6 ~ 73.1% (204 ~ 242 HP) (sunshine)
    <+jas61292> God, I honestly think of it the other way. Bulky toed is awful compared to other bulky waters. At least Specs Toed isn't outclassed as badly
    <verbatim> suicune
    <prem> either way
    <bugmaniacbob> it's not bad
    <bugmaniacbob> but it's not exactly comfortable
    <+jas61292> Though nowadays Scarf Toed is my favorite anywasy
    <bugmaniacbob> depends on movepool really.
    <prem> outside of checking the 3 water types in the metagame
    <bugmaniacbob> if we have Thunderbolt and Recover, we're all set
    <prem> 2 of which do not actually use spa
    <prem> drought purely outclasses dry skin
    <prem> and jellicent and toed
    <prem> get walled pretty hard in sun
    <bugmaniacbob> what about um
    <prem> Politoed (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Hydro Pump vs Jellicent (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 45.3 ~ 53.1% (150 ~ 176 HP) (sunshine)
    <bugmaniacbob> Latios
    <prem> thats scarf toed
    <prem> latios?
    <prem> latios is just using draco
    <prem> ll
    <bugmaniacbob> well, for sake of argument
    <prem> surf?
    <bugmaniacbob> yeh
    <bugmaniacbob> how much does that do
    <prem> Latios@Choice Specs (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Surf vs Jellicent (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 45.3 ~ 53.7% (150 ~ 178 HP) (sunshine)
    <prem> this is all assuming
    <prem> no bulk cap3
    <bugmaniacbob> "switch out"
    <prem> which is honestly NEVER gonna happen
    <+jas61292> And then Politoed switches in on it and it dies
    <bugmaniacbob> depends if RD's magic speedy thing comes to fruition.
    <prem> magic speed means nothing
    <prem> when nothing can come in
    <prem> on a base 131 specs fire blast in sun
    <paintseagull> Quanyails: !!! he's so precious! awesome drawing!
    <bugmaniacbob> well I mean
    <prem> what has 130 spa
    <prem> jolteon
    <+jas61292> no
    <AJC> jolt has 110
    <paintseagull> Quanyails: I like how you did his frill
    <bugmaniacbob> if, as he said, we're all running 252 Spe Timid to try to outpace careful heatran
    <AJC> 130 is it's speed
    <bugmaniacbob> *careless
    <+jas61292> Espeon
    <prem> (fire typed) Jolteon@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Fire Blast vs Latias (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 46.9 ~ 55.2% (171 ~ 201 HP) (sunshine)
    <bugmaniacbob> but it's better than Espeon
    <bugmaniacbob> also, Heatran
    <prem> heatran is a counter
    <prem> i guess
    <+jas61292> And yes
    <prem> politoed is considered overpowering
    <prem> with its hydro pump
    <verbatim> prem
    <verbatim> politoed isn't guaranteed screwed by dugtrio
    <verbatim> seriously
    <prem> okay
    <prem> one pokemon
    <prem> doesnt not validate an ability
    <bugmaniacbob> Shed shell
    <verbatim> that completley warps this pokemons behavior
    <prem> dugtrio fucks up ninetales too
    <prem> its a shit mon
    <prem> that because top 20 inusage
    <bugmaniacbob> run your own dugtrio to trap
    <prem> like every arguement i see
    <prem> isnt very good at all
    <bugmaniacbob> didn't we consider it once
    <prem> well imo
    <&elevator_afk> everyone should just play lc its the best~
    <prem> yes we should
    <&elevator_afk> ironically around the time of cap 3 iirc
    <prem> like this
    <prem> I thought we voted for the concept of exploring how to make over an otherwise bad typing, not a concept of making the ultimate weather-mon.
    <prem> how does giving it drought make it a god weather mon
    <bugmaniacbob> well
    <bugmaniacbob> it's a weather mon
    <bugmaniacbob> and it's good
    <prem> not the ultimate weather mon
    <prem> if we wanted the ultimate weather mon
    <prem> we would give it lugia bulk
    <prem> and roost
    <prem> recover
    <&elevator_afk> it doesnt need to be (see: ninetales ?_?)
    <prem> its a horrible mon
    <prem> that we use because we like sun
    <&elevator_afk> yea but this cap isnt terrible :S
    <prem> notice my problem.
    <bugmaniacbob> Ninetales' ability is evidenced by the fact that people are willing to run Sunny Day on it, I think
    <AJC> drought ninetails with sunny day
    <bugmaniacbob> or lack of
    <prem> yes
    <prem> we have a bad pokemon being used a lot
    <prem> because of a game changing ability
    <prem> now we want to give it to something with ttar level statsv
    <prem> the reason ttar isnt broken is because sand doesnt actually support too many mons that are good
    <prem> sun supports a shit loads of mons
    <AJC> thats because we banned the ones that were
    <AJC> :P
    <prem> exactly.
    <prem> sun supports literally every fire and grass type
    <prem> anything tahts weak to water
    <prem> and we have it on something
    <prem> that gets double stab
    <bugmaniacbob> I like how people in the thread are using the word "ambivalent" after I used it
    <prem> unlike ttar
    <V4> w/ RP to take care of opposing Chlorophyll abusers
    <prem> who has similar offensive stat
    <prem> a similar*
    <prem> but has a lower bp move
    <prem> and doesnt get the double stab

    <prem> i dont get r_d arguement
    <bugmaniacbob> which one
    <prem> The issue here is that in the role of a Water Absorber or Water-resist in general is completely eclipsed in sunlight;
    <prem> so hes saying
    <prem> dry skin is shit
    <prem> compared to drought
    <prem> from what im reading.
    <bugmaniacbob> I think he was referring to the people supporting Water Absorb and Storm Drain
    <prem> yes but cant we apply that to dry skin also
    <bugmaniacbob> and saying nobody in their right minds would use those abilities anyway
    <bugmaniacbob> over Dry Skin
    <bugmaniacbob> since Dry Skin is clearly the preferred ability in rain and in any weather save sunlight
    prem> yes but why woudl we want a fire type to not be in sunlight :(
    <bugmaniacbob> meh
    <bugmaniacbob> he said somewhere that heatran totally outclasses
    <+jas61292> Actually, Water Absorb is prefered in any weather bar Rain
    <bugmaniacbob> why
    <Chispy> Dry Skin is that it performs in both Sun and Rain.
    <Chispy> It still gets a boost to its STAB in the Sun but heals in the Rain.
    <+jas61292> Out side of rain all Dry Skin has different is a loss of full fire resistance
    <bugmaniacbob> anyway, the argument being that nobody would use it in sun anyway if it didn't have Drought
    <prem> how would heatran totally outclass it
    <prem> does he not understand
    <prem> poison fire grass
    <prem> has literally perfect coverage outside of heatran
    <prem> and that
    <prem> cap would be setting up the sun just by coming in
    <prem> while heatran
    <prem> would have to wait for ninetales to come in
    <prem> and THEN come in

    yes i know there is some clutter and everything in there but im too lazy to get rid of it. ill just summarize this somewhat.

    i think both arguements being made are horrible. pro-drought people, to me, are sounding like they think drought wont be used over dry skin in nearly every circumstance, while anti-drought people think saying "it doesnt follow the concept
    and is a bad idea" without actually explaining why is okay.

    with drought, cap3 can practically be a water counter anyway to everything but purely offensive water types, such as starmie and gyarados, and even then it not going to get OHKOed by a lo hydro pump from starmie even after sr. standard toed does 23% to NO BULK CAP3, which honestly will not exist because its at a speed tier where it doesnt really need speed at all. and then it can use its overpowering attacks in sunlight to destroy everything. we have had issues with specs toed hydro pump, who has 90 base spa, and now we have a pokemon with power equivalent with specs tran in the sun, except is always in unless a tyranitar switches in. specs fire blast in sun from cap3 literally 2hkos everything assuming in sunlight, making heatran and tyranitar the only 2 viable switchins to it at all.

    we saw ninetales go from a horrible horrible nu mon (which by stats it still is) to a top 20 mon in ou BECAUSE of drought. now we are giving something with stats somewhat comparable to ttar (good bulk and high spa). the difference is that sand is not a very supportive weather. it doesnt support anything in ou besides tyranitar because we banned everything that got support from sand. it doesnt have a 1.5 multiplier to a type, it doesnt reduce the damage of water-attacks in a primarily ground/rock based setting (i cant think of a better word), it doesnt support like 10 mons who are really good when they have double stab or double speed. im not sure who said this (it could be dusk but honestly i dont care who said it), but whoever says that heatran is a better sun mon than cap3 in sun is sorely wrong. the issue with suntran is that it has to hope ninetales has kept it set up, or set it up themself. cap3 would not have to worry about ever NOT being in the sun, because its setting it up just by coming in the field.

    last thing i want to bring up is that if drought is chosen, im pretty fucking sure that it will be used over dry skin 65% of the time at least. in sunlight it can check water types decently well, and can deal massive damage to a lot of them back. with dry skin, it is only better in a single condition that it wouldnt even have to be in with drought. the added healing is nice but compared to double stab, its honestly not worth while imo.

    im different so despite me going on about how drought is a horrible ability imo, i like brokemons so in the poll i will probably pick drought. if we want a not broken cap however, we really shouldnt pick drought.

    sorry if this post wasnt coherent or tl;dr or just factually incorrect iyo, this is just my opinion on the topic.
  23. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Head Mod

    May 27, 2005
    I've been reading the back and forth about Drought and I have a few comments.

    First I'd like to say that CAP3 is probably the most vulnerable Pokemon in sunlight even if it does set it up for the rest of the user's team. Most of the powerful Chlorophyll sweepers completely destroy CAP3 with Earthquake. Both Tangrowth and Life Orb Mixed Venusaur demolish it, and the much rarer Exeggutor has very powerful STAB Psychic attacks. Say what you will about Ninetales, it can still threaten Chlorophyll users from full health. In essense about the only thing it pulls from Drought is the weather change itself and the boost to Fire STAB, which wile powerful still doesn't change much vis-a-vis its checks. Terrakion can still take its Fire attacks and outspeed, while Gliscor and Landorus never wanted to switch into Fire Blast anyway.

    Which is to say that CAP 3 will have many revenge killers if it has Drought - and all of them will be Sun team staples. This creates a paradox among Drought CAP3 itself. It fuels the sweeps of the very Pokemon it's designed to enable. Undoubtedly there will be many Balloon or possibly Shuca CAP 3 floating around at that point, but regardless it does little to adjust what it threatens and what it is supposed to threaten.

    In contrast, Dry Skin is an incredibly safe ability even against Sun teams. Yes, CAP3 will take residual damage, but it will also have its STAB boosted, meaning the sun threats that counter the Drought variants will instead have to switch into its boosted STAB. Dry Skin CAP 3 can win under a double-switch scenario with a Chlorophyll Pokemon if sun is not up, Drought CAP3 cannot. Dry Skin CAP3 can also be put on non-Rain teams that might otherwise have difficulty with Rain, whereas Drought CAP3 lends itself to a far more specific team style.

    Back to Drought, what is important to note is that a Toxic (and indeed, Burn) immune weather starter smashes all of the vital elements of Rain Stall. In fact, since Sunny Day prevents freezing CAP3 cannot be stopped even by an errant Ice Beam. This is something no other typing can really pull off, even Fire/Steel would not be quite as effective given the ability of Politoed to run Focus Blast and the fact that Fire/Poison actually absorbs Toxic Spikes rather than just being immune to them.

    Ultimately whether this is the road we want to go down will be left up to the voters.

    As far as what No Competitive Ability means, it means abilities that aren't as defining as Dry Skin but nevertheless play off of elements of the type, like Suction Cups - that also fit in with Art Flavor, just to save them a lot of hassle.

    Intimidate would not be included in that listing since it falls into generic "good ability" territory and doesn't really emphasize any qualities specific to the typing, it's effectively a +1 Def boost on switchin. My biggest problem with Adaptability stems from the fact it is permanent. In order to keep Drought's Fire boost you have to maintain the weather, which can be a difficult task. So basically NCA postpones the remaining abilities until after Art, and we move on from there.

    I think now would be an appropriate time for a 24 hour warning. Thus far I've been unimpressed with anything outside Drought and Regenerator as far as comparable abilities.

    The reason I like Regenerator, incidentally, is it makes a Life Orb set quite effective at coming in, getting a shot off, and then switching out. Even with a single layer of Spikes out, the net HP gain is 11%, and it also allows us to explore an avenue like a Regenerator Rapid Spinner, which also works quite well with the residual damaging status immunities.
  24. Temperantia


    Mar 9, 2011
    I think more attention should be brought to jas#'s post, namely the last paragraph.

    With such a disproportionate use of the CAP3 that can set up a disadvantageous weather for the other version of itself, why would anyone ever use Dry Skin over Drought?
  25. GlassAbsol


    Jun 18, 2009
    This, so much this. Purely because this brings us back to the original concept which is To take a 'bad' typing and make it a 'good' typing This means that Drought/Motor Drive/Pure Power whatever would make a bad typing into a good pokemon purely by virtue of Ability. Now Ability is important, don't get me wrong and I think that Dry Skin is a superb ability for this pokemon because it takes a hugely negative aspect of Fire Typing (Water weakness) and makes it a good thing, by healing. If we went too far down that line to Levitate, which was out ruled by Deck in the first ability discussion, we would remove a 4x weakness and then remove a key tool in the armory of the pokemon we decided should Check us.

    For those thinking about Drought, think Why would it be in OU? it's typing? Fire/Poison? No it would be in OU because it would outclass Ninetales as a Sun Starter. We need to think: what would make Fire/Poison a good typing? I think that Either Create a Niche from typing and Ability (resist to all main Status) or to make Poison STAB useable in OU. Therefore I think that 2 abilities to be slated are Adaptability because that will make the Poison STAB an Offensive possibility considering that as a STAB combo, Fire/Poison is surprisingly solid. Or Discussing the immunity to Status, Either Limber/Vital Spirit because Immunity to Burn and Toxic is pretty impressive as a type combo, and to add another status immunity would supplement the typing and create a perfect switch in to Ferrothorn.
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