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CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, May 11, 2012.

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  1. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Tsk, how disappointing. Can't say I expected much from the idea, though.

    As far as Drought goes:

    Code:
    CAP3 sun-boosted LO Fire Blast vs. Blissey (OU Support): 45.51 - 53.78%
    And for comparison's sake

    Code:
    Kyogre rain-boosted Choice Specs Surf vs. Blissey (OU Support): 45.79 - 53.92%
    Drought was nice to talk about when Politoed levels of offensive stats were assumed. Now, though, we've been given Heatran-esque power levels, and we're adding effectively another STAB boost on top. I'm sure somebody somewhere will want to say something to the tune of "oh but tyranitar" and yes, I'm sure that will be a very prickly problem, even if we do go the Ninetales route and all run Sunny Day Drought sets. But to be quite honest, I think the cons outweigh the pros here. These were given sufficiently in the previous thread; I don't think anything else needs to be said about it here.

    So I suppose I would support No Competitive Ability now, as no remaining abilities allow us to explore the typing in any meaningful capacity, with the possible exception of Regenerator, and only then because arguably being able to heal off Stealth Rock automatically makes us slightly more capable defensively.

    Also Solar Power for the fun times
  2. jackm

    jackm

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    I support Regenerator fully.

    Considering CAP 3's immunity to both burn and poison, as well as the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, Regenerator would allow it to be a potent weapon against stall teams and defensively-oriented teams which would abuse residual damage.

    In addition, if CAP 3 was to take a more offensively minded approach, running something along the lines of a bulky Choice Specs attacker, Regenerator would be highlight its decent 95/83/105 defenses by providing it with ample opportunities to switch in on weak attacks from stall-based pokemon and wreak havoc, with
    Regenerator
    reducing the damage taken.
  3. Rising_Dusk

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    Firstly, bugmaniacbob's calculation below for a sun-boosted Fire Blast is wrong.
    Code:
    252 Timid Life Orb CAP 3 (Sun) Fire Blast
    
      vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 41.3% - 48.7%
    We have a powerful Pokemon now with 131 base Special Attack.

    It's important to remember this, and even more important to consider what that can do in sun. It's also important, however, to remember that it forfeits our Water-type immunity for a pseudo-resistance that hinges on our ability to maintain weather.

    Let's look at some relevant calculations offensively. I will assume two sets, a Choice Scarf set that attempts to sweep and a Choice Specs set that attempts to wallbreak. First of all, note that Choice Scarf Heatran and Choice Scarf Landorus, the most popular variants of those two Pokemon which threaten us still walk all over both sets once safely in.
    Code:
    252 Modest Choice Specs CAP 3 (Sun) Fire Blast  
      
      vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 52.7% - 62.2%
      vs. 0/4 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-W : 94.6% - 111.6%
      vs. 0/4 Timid Life Orb Starmie : 105.7% - 124.9%
      vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Tentacruel : 56.9% - 67.3%
      vs. 252/0 Adamant No-Multiscale Dragonite : 63% - 74.4%
      vs. 252/0 Timid Latias : 53.3% - 62.6%
    Ow. As far as a wallbreaker goes, CAP 3 is immensely powerful. Even the mighty Latias and Blissey are 2HKOed a majority of the time. Rotom-W and Starmie are OHKOed with and without SR, respectively. This is pretty damned powerful, indeed. Let's try it against its two best switch-ins, however:
    Code:
    252 Modest Choice Specs Pokemon Fire Blast  
      
      vs. 252/192 Sassy Leftovers Tyranitar (Sandstorm) : 20.3% - 24%
      vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Politoed (Rain) : 21.1% - 25%
    Amusing, at best. Now let's try Choice Scarf.
    Code:
    252 Timid Choice Scarf CAP 3 (Sun) Fire Blast  
      
      vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 31.9% - 37.5%
      vs. 0/4 Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-W : 57.3% - 67.6%
      vs. 0/4 Timid Life Orb Starmie : 64.4% - 75.9%
      vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Tentacruel : 34.6% - 40.7%
      vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 38.3% - 45.1%
      vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Latias : 32.1% - 37.9%
    I'll be pretty honest, Choice Scarf CAP 3 is going to be fairly bad. It can't beat any of the list of normal Fire-type switch-ins, it can't outspeed Heatran, it cannot outspeed +1 DNite, and err, it cannot outspeed +1 anything pretty much except like Scrafty and TTar.

    Now let's do ourselves a favor and compare a Choice CAP 3 to Heatran, because that's really what it'll come down to in sun. I'll say this:

    • CAP 3 is weak to Stealth Rock
    • CAP 3 has far fewer switch-ins than Heatran
    • CAP 3 is slower than Heatran
    • CAP 3 is not as bulky as Heatran
    • CAP 3 is negligibly more powerful than Heatran
    • CAP 3 starts its own sun (Assuming Drought)
    Thus, CAP 3 is not as good as Heatran in the sun-wallbreaking role. The reality is, as I intended it to be with the stats, that CAP 3 without Dry Skin simply won't be getting as many switch-ins without investment in its defensive stats. It's too slow to do anything akin to what Infernape achieves, and too type-weak to achieve what Heatran manages. About the only way you'd be able to use CAP 3 as a wallbreaker is if you used it alongside Ninetales, because quite frankly, Modest Specs CAP 3 will be dying really fast. That in itself isn't a terrible idea, but invites redundant weaknesses on your sun team, which typically doesn't end well.


    --


    As far as other abilities go, capefeather summed it up quite nicely.
    This rules out a lot of suggestions thus far, namely Sheer Force, CompoundEyes, Rough Skin, Vital Spirit, and even Regenerator. I'm surprised that cape lists how good it will be, because quite frankly, without its Water-type immunity or pseudo-resistance from Drought, CAP 3 will be able to switch into a very small list of Pokemon in OU successfully. It's not that bulky, and its typing leaves it with holes that basically every OU Pokemon except Scizor can capitalize on (And Scizor will just U-turn out to something that can threaten you). Regenerator is good on totally offensive and fast Pokemon because they can punch you and then run away, but CAP 3 is slow. 76 isn't catching anything really, and will barely be forcing switches in the first place. CAP 3 will always use Dry Skin if given Regenerator.

    Regenerator isn't even good enough on stall teams. Consider that over three turns, Dry Skin in rain has healed CAP 3 more than Regenerator would have. That's not even a stretch because it will always get at least two turns (switch-in + opponent switch). What's more is that if CAP 3 switches into a Water-type attack in rain, Dry Skin in one turn heals CAP 3 more than Regenerator would. Pack Protect and you can get four easily. Consider further that CAP 3 maintains an immunity to Water-type attacks with Dry Skin, which is countless times more valuable than anything Regenerator provides. Seriously, Regenerator simply cannot compare to Dry Skin on this Pokemon. It isn't even worth supporting.

    The only ability I can think of with enough potency to match what Dry Skin achieves for this Pokemon is Drought.
  4. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    252+ SpA CAP 3 Solar Power boosted Fire Blast = 595 SpA x 270 power = 160650
    252+ SpA CAP 3 Solar Power boosted Overheat = 595 SpA x 315 power = 187425
    252+ SpA Charizard sun-boosted Overheat = 522 SpA x 315 power = 164430
    252+ SpA Charizard sun-boosted Blast Burn = 522 SpA x 337.5 power = 176175
    252+ SpA Chandelure sun-boosted Overheat = 427 SpA x 315 power = 134505

    I'm pretty sure you weren't entirely serious with the Solar Power comment, but don't you think it's a bit odd to say that Drought-boosted Fire Blast is too powerful, and then turn around and suggest Solar Power? It would be possible to have a Fire Blast that exceeds the power of Chandelure's Overheat (which OHKOes offensive Gyarados after Stealth Rock with Modest Choice Specs, btw), which I would consider the strongest immediate, remotely viable attack in OU. In fact, it approaches the power of Charizard's Overheat. Charizard's Overheat! Not only that, but if CAP 3 itself got Overheat, it would exceed Charizard's Blast Burn in power. That's right, Charizard's Solar Power boosted Blast Burn, the strongest immediate attack in Generation V. We'd be dealing with straight-off-the-Poké-Ball power levels that are literally uncharted outside of DPP Lickilicky's Explosion. We might end up with one of the most ridiculous attackers ever. We might end up with a stupid gimmick that no one sane would even look past Dry Skin to try out. And this is supposed to be an alternative to Drought?

    Again, I'm pretty sure you weren't entirely serious about Solar Power but...

    I maintain that Regenerator is too good specifically for what it would be intended to do on CAP 3. At least Dry Skin needs two turns and rain to compensate for Stealth Rock damage... Whether it would generally be comparable to Dry Skin is I guess another matter.

    I saw a post about Storm Drain. I think it wouldn't do much better than Water Absorb would, honestly. +1 SpA possibility is "cool" but it's not reliable enough. The reasoning behind Storm Drain uses a fallacious compartmentalization of offensive and defensive benefits. Offensive Pokémon would certainly benefit from a defensive ability like Dry Skin. Just ask Toxicroak or (in the case of Regenerator) Mienshao. In fact, Tyranitar is right there. No, it doesn't bite (out of battle). Even Gastrodon I would say benefits far more from the Water absorption (like Dry Skin) than from the SpA boost itself.

    Also @ above post regarding Choice Scarf Heatran:

    Item | 7.1 | Choice Scarf

    Just sayin'.
  5. Rising_Dusk

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    Heatran is also immune to our Fire-type STAB, which makes it a good response to offensive CAP 3 in sun regardless. You also can't look at BW OU's stats and say "Well that's how it's going to be." Remember that when CAP 3 is added to the metagame, those statistics will change. If CAP 3 forces Heatran to want a Choice Scarf more often than normal, Heatran will use a Choice Scarf more than normal. It's that simple.
  6. jas61292

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    I was somewhat against Drought before the stats were known, but now that they are set, I am dead sure that Drought would be a terrible move for this CAP. I have detailed many of my reasons before on how it does not really do much to help with the concept, and that what it aims to help it beat is accomplished better by Dry Skin anyways. But I think one of the biggest arguments that needs to be carefully looked at is what Bugmaniacbob just talked about above. The power. 131 SpA with double STAB is just obscene. I mean, just look at that calc above. Its mere decimal points away from the power of one of the hardest hitters in all of UBERS. And that's only carrying a Life Orb. Absurd power with no real reason is not at all what we need here.

    As for some abilities I do like, first and foremost is Regenerator. Yes, we are Stealth Rock weak. And that is important. I would never suggest that we eliminate the weakness itself, but I think mitigating it would be great. It does not allow us to switch in and survive more things than normal, but it lets the CAP get in, do its job, get out, and then still be able to do it again. One of the key things countered by this CAP is Scizor, but as I'm sure you all know, even with double resists, U-Turn damage racks up. Well, with Regenerator, it won't anymore. It would let us easily take advantage of the types natural ability to beat the number one OU Pokemon, without worrying about it slowly chipping away at us.

    However, I do acknowledge that Regenerator is a very powerful ability, and if we would prefer to err on the side of caution, I think a something like Flame Body would be great. Sure, it might seem inferior to Dry Skin, and it might not be used nearly as much, but it gives us an option for those who wish to run it in Sun without penalty, and deters frequent U-Turning from Scizor and company as they risk burn if CAP3 switches in.

    Additionally I think a status immunity ability such as Vital Spirit could be interesting. Once again, it may seem vastly inferior to Dry Skin, and it probably is, but I don't think that is a bad thing. I think the key with this second ability is to give it some options outside of rain. The ability to become a general status move absorber could be a cool way to approach this, especially since it has the power to threaten most Pokemon who would be throwing status moves around.

    Another option would be to go for Water Absorb or Storm Drain. These would provide the same kind of utility to Dry Skin, but with less pronounced side effects, for those who like sun or just don't want to risk facing it with a non rain team.

    However, all that being said, I would not mind if we went with No Competitive Ability. I honestly feel that there is no ability out there better than Dry Skin for this CAP. Anything we do would be giving it power for the sake of giving it power. If you look at OU, very very few Pokemon have more than one viable ability, and that is because you only need one. We don't need to be unpredictable. We just need to do our job. Dry Skin already does that.
  7. Birkal

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    This is something that every single user needs to consider before they dismiss Drought. CAP 3 is going to have very few switch-ins in OU, even with Dry Skin. Right now, I see CAP 3 as a Pokemon that is outclassed by Heatran except for the small niche role of being able to take Water-type attacks. Most teams already pack a few Water-type resistances (Ferro, Dnite, Rotom-W, etc.), so I don't see it as a groundbreaking ability. Giving CAP3 Drought actually gives it some purpose in OU, in my opinion. Right now, we're staring down the barrel of an incredibly niche Pokemon that I don't see getting much use. Drought absolutely fulfills our concept by appraising both the defensive and offensive capabilities of Fire-type (and defensive Poison-type to take away T-spikes + Toxic immunity). I don't see the issue here.
  8. bugmaniacbob

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    Tsk. Don't assume things like that.

    You used Timid, I used Modest.

    I assumed it was patently obvious that I was referring to CAP3's maximum damage output - evidently it wasn't.

    And while I am absolutely certain that you could make a case that CAP3 would not be broken with Drought, that doesn't mean it isn't a bad idea to make something that stupidly powerful.

    1. Ninetales is currently more or less a liability, but a necessary one
    2. Sun teams pack many many dangerous sweepers, Chlorophyll or otherwise
    3. We are giving their ace card to a Pokemon with 131 SpA and 95/83/105 defensive stats

    Does nothing about this seem a little off-putting to the Drought supporters?

    More to the point, the arguments against Drought as an entity still stand, as Drought can only really be seriously used for sake of Drought. Why would you really use CAP3 when you could use Heatran? Certainly it might help in the weather wars, but then, you still can't switch in on any common sandstorm Pokemon and Dry Skin is better against rain teams anyway. As for hail teams, I'd bank on Fire STAB, but they're not really common enough to justify forgoing Dry Skin. Thus Drought can only seriously be used in the context of a sun team, and at that point I think all we have really managed to do is to create a better sun summoner. That is something I don't want to see happen.

    Your comments about Dry Skin being one of the best possible abilities for this CAP are sound, but I don't think giving it Drought is at all a good idea in light of this. There is nothing wrong with giving it an outclassed secondary ability, but there is everything wrong with giving it an eclipsing secondary ability.

    @cape: Naturally I'm not serious with Solar Power. I don't support any simple power-boosting abilities without a very, very good reason behind them.
  9. The Reptile

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    I would like to throw my support for Regenerator. Our CaP gets worn down by hazards and possible attacks it could take while it switches in really fast, and it would die pretty fast. Also, I would like to point out that this won't end up being like Mienshao. Mienshao resist SR, meaning that (assuming 3 layers and SR), Mienshao takes around 31% damage, with is less than 33%. This means that Mienshao can always recover entry hazard damage by switching in. CaP, on the other hand, does not have this luxury. Again, assuming 3 layers and SR, we take 50% damage. Also, iirc it only takes 1 layer of spikes and SR to damage us to a point where Regenerator can't heal us off completely (it's around 37% I believe).

    Also, we could go with Water Absorb , since it works exactly like Dry Skin except for the weather part, which means we could use it in Sun Teams better.
  10. Mari

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    I also would prefer Tinted Lens. This ability allows CAP3 to hurt Tentacruel, Jellicent, Washtom, Gastrodon, Nidoqueen and most other water, ghost or poison switch-ins - so they can swich-in less often - but has no effect on Heatran. Dry Skin is a very interesting, but risky ability - making CAP3 only working well in specialized teams. Tinted Lens would give more capabilities to it, so that you could use CAP3 for more different purposes and to aim on more different scopes.
  11. DetroitLolcat

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    The three abilities that I think have the most merit on this Pokemon are:

    Regenerator, Suction Cups, and No Competitive Ability. Each of these three abilities allow us to overcome the limitations of Fire/Poison in unique ways.

    Regenerator is pretty obvious: it allows us not to worry about entry hazards as much as we normally would. This is both an interesting ability and one that fits the concept well. However, Regenerator also encourages the use of Life Orb, which I see as detrimental to this CAP in the long run. If the stat spread was tailored to make Lava Plume the Fire move of choice, it seems Regenerator would be rather contrary to the concept and make CAP3 into a slow, bulky Life Orb tank.

    Suction Cups allows to abuse the typing and make CAP3 into the best stallbreaker in the game next to Reuniclus. With Suction Cups, we're immune to Burn, Poison, and Phazing, which means common stall staples will fail to faze (no pun intended) us at all. This is especially good towards the concept since when you think Fire/Poison, you don't think "stallbreaking machine". Suction Cups might be the best ability possible for the current CAP.

    No Competitive Ability might also be worth discussing, as Dry Skin is also wonderful towards this concept and giving the Pokemon another ability might be a needless complication. Think of Colossoil and Krilowatt. Rebound and Trace were good abilities, but Guts and Magic Guard overshadowed them and lowered the degree to which they fulfilled their concepts.

    Drought shouldn't even be considered at this point in my opinion. CAP3 should be a Rain-centered Pokemon, not a Sun Abuser that makes Ninetales cringe. We do not accomplish anything that Dry Skin doesn't do in the context of the concept, and Drought allows it to ROFLstomp its counters like Terrakion, Landorus, and Gliscor.

    Giving full support to Suction Cups

    P.S. CAP3 will most likely not be broken with Drought. It just wouldn't achieve anything towards the concept.
  12. Rising_Dusk

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    Then why did you use LO and not Specs? Furthermore, why didn't you actually point out your nature instead of presuming the reader should assume anything? Your calculation was misleading, and its comparison to Kyogre is fallacious in principle as a result. You compared Kyogre's 150 SpA, 95 BAP STAB with Specs to CAP 3's 131 SpA, 120 BAP STAB with LO. I am shocked that you cannot see the fundamental issues with that comparison.

    --

    Anyway, I would like everyone to face the music insofar as this: CAP 3 will not be used in sun unless it starts sun or has stat-augmenting abilities in sun. jas's argument for something necessarily neutrally valuable like Flame Body essentially underpins the case that "We should be able to use a Fire-type in sun if we want to", when in actuality, good competitive Pokemon players wouldn't use it anyway. Short of giving it something like Quiver Dance or Chlorophyll or Solar Power, all of which I'll argue against incessantly, there's simply no way that CAP 3 will get used in any weather besides rain. It is outclassed in every respect by better OU Pokemon for the job. Dry Skin is a necessary niche for it to actually see use, and even with that I don't think it'll be that popular or worth considering on many teams.

    BW OU is a metagame about powerful Pokemon. There are things in BW OU that not even CAP would have ever considered in its DPP days, citing things such as "blatantly overpowering". CAP 3 might be strong, and it might be pretty decently bulky by BW OU standards, and with Drought it might do a lot to displace Ninetales because Ninetales is a terrible Pokemon. Ninetales in itself is the reason that sun isn't as popular as it might otherwise be; compared to Tyranitar and even Politoed, Ninetales is absolutely awful. A powerful and decently bulky Drought Pokemon with Fire / Poison typing would capitalize on its typing in ways unique to a weather starter, both offensively with Fire STAB and defensively with poison immunity, and it would be veritably OU because it'd legitimize sun as a weather up there with rain and sand. Is that bad? No, it's not, and I'd argue that it is necessarily good. Just as CAP should one day strive to make hail comparable as a weather to the others, we should take this unique opportunity to explore sun as a serious contender and perfectly satisfy the concept all at once.

    There is no better solution, I'd argue. I designed my stats with this in mind, and if you can get past the intentional power of CAP 3 in sun that is still appropriately tempered by BW OU, I am convinced that you will see it too.
  13. kingtrace

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    Well, yes, if we designed a pokemon based fundamentally around countering rain teams, then rain is where it is going to excel the most. Giving it Drought is not fundamentally changing the concept of a Fire type. The only thing that makes it any different than giving another fire type Drought is because it also packs poison stab and toxic spikes immunity/absorb. I understand, also, that weather is the most dominant factor in the metagame this side of Stealth Rock, but why is CaP3's ability to operate in the sun a talking point here? I think there are a lot of interesting things we can do with it to make it useable over Heatran, and just throwing it a weather ability so it can keep up is kind of silly. Gyrados can't keep up and is not relevant anymore? Throw it Drizzle! Want Snorlax to be OU? I bet it would be if you gave it Drought!

    My less ridiculous summary of that is any pokemon, and I mean almost ANY pokemon, will get more usage than similar pokemon if you give it weather. What I want to see is us giving CaP3 a different way to stand out from other OU pokemon. I'm sure that CAP, being an extremely creative and intelligent community, can do that.
  14. capefeather

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    I was going to wait a while before posting again, but I have to address a trend in this thread that I find bothersome. I don't understand what some of the anti-Drought arguments are saying. Would Drought CAP 3 be "too strong" or not? Some people seem to be saying both in the same post! To me, the posts are basically saying, "It's too strong. Even if it isn't too strong, it doesn't fit the concept. Even if it actually does fit the concept to some interpretation (which I do not share), I'd prefer not to make a weather starter to outclass Ninetales. Poor Ninetales." I'd link to one of Doug's posts that comes to mind here, but I can't be bothered to find it right now...

    Drought is not about power for the sake of power, any more than Dry Skin is about passive healing for the sake of passive healing. What it boils down to is, you support Drought because it's "cool" and it fits the concept in some way (and no, insisting that it doesn't will not make it true), or you don't support Drought because it's "not cool" (pun not intended) or it doesn't fit your vision of the concept or however many other reasons. At this point, it's a matter of preference, which is largely outside the scope of this thread, whose main purpose is to convince the TL to put certain abilities up for voting. You can go ahead and vote against Drought to your heart's content in the poll, and I will go ahead and vote for it. This is why we vote on these things at all. I doubt that either side will convince the other on this preferential difference at this point.

    I don't see, for example, why this matters so much:
    This is the kind of preference argument that I'm talking about. I don't want to fundamentally change the concept of a Fire-type. Some people do.

    What remains to be seen about Drought is whether it is too powerful. This is what Deck Knight has posted about concerning whether Drought will be slated or not. Rising_Dusk has put up his case that Drought is not too strong. That's all there is to it. There's no point in asking how his calculations show that you should vote for Drought, because that was not the goal of the calculations. If there is any point to be posting about Drought at this point, it is to counter Rising_Dusk's argument (since everyone seems to agree that it's valid) and thus try to prevent Drought from getting slated. Otherwise, you can hope that Deck Knight disagrees with Rising_Dusk on all counts. I wouldn't bet on that, though.

    Rising_Dusk has argued the inferiority of Regenerator to Dry Skin in the same way. If you support Regenerator, you should probably address the Regenerator vs Dry Skin comparison. Remember that you can easily use a Life Orb set with Dry Skin in rain and heal yourself every attack on average, if you really wanted to.
  15. Meganium Sulfate

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    capefeather, you said that Drought is the best second ability because the other ones won't be used if Dry Skin is an option. Using this same logic, Drought cannot be a good secondary ability, because it would completely overshadow Dry Skin.

    If we wanted this pokemon to have Drought, we would have voted it as a Primary ability. Like Deck said, we have to go with the original concensus; now is not the time to change the concept entirely. How is the Drought ability in any way secondary? You cannot deny that it's a game changer, and a much more significant one than Dry Skin at that.

    As for my preference, I would love to have Huge/Pure Power, because it's likely to generate an entirely new style of playing that isn't too overpowered (the attack and sp. attack wouldn't be too different, so physical sets and mixed sets could be interesting). Deck Knight has already denounced it though, which I guess kills that plan outright. Another option that hasn't been stated yet is No Guard. 100% accurate Toxics, Will-O-Wisps, and Fire Blasts are just the kind of power we need to balance out Dry Skin.
  16. srk1214

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    All right, well I've missed out on a good start here.

    I will add my name to the list of people adamantly opposed to Drought as a second ability. I would have been potentially fine with it with Korski's level of Sp Attack, but not with Dusk's.

    I think Regenerator is a pointless option. I can't see a single case where CAP3 would rather recover Hazard damage than have Protect + Dry Skin.

    However two options I'd like to take seriously are Pure Power/Huge Power (which has already been argued for well) and Levitate.

    Yup. Levitate. Why not? CAP3 would be able to run it as a surprise to gain free switch-ins on Earthquakes. CAP3 also gains immunity to spikes. But the trade-off is steep. CAP3 trades one immunity for another, more common one, but loses T-spikes absorption as well as Rain recovery. As a plus CAP3 can't be trapped by Dugtrio and can become a complete counter to Heatran.

    I think the key is to stop thinking about providing a second truly "competitive" ability, as anything worse than Dry Skin (aka almost everything) can hardly be considered competitive FOR CAP3. CAP3 will run whatever is best all the time. Therefore the trick is to provide something that has niche capability. Like a Pure Power. Like a Levitate.
  17. Unitas

    Unitas

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    @kevlarscale

    Limber seems like a great ability. It would be able to absorb three statuses and would be a great pivot for the team. I also support Magma Armor as it stops the random freezes, but could still be useful.

    I feel like we should not use Drought, as it would neuter all of CAPs counters and would make it a little overpowered. This could also push sun teams in favor of rain as sun teams would have two weather starters which would make it more difficult for rain to keep its weather up.

    Regenerator could be a great ability for CAP because it allows it to use its bulk. It also gives CAP the ability to use its typing and its resistances as a way to switch out and gain the regenerator health boost. This helps the concept also as it uses its typing to be able to lure in threats and then switch back in with one of its many resistances and gain that health.

    I also feel like Tinted Lens would be overpowered as it stops all of its checks.

    I am in support of Limber and Regenerator right now.
  18. Mari

    Mari

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    I mentioned Telepathy as an example for a completely useless ability. You could also take Illuminate instead of it - it should only negate the positive and negative effects of Dry Skin.
  19. The Reptile

    The Reptile Wonderful Wiggling Wyrms!
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    Hey, how about we give it Flower Gift? It probably won't make it, but it would be very interesting to have.

    The 50% boost in Attack and Special Defense might not seem that useful to CaP (only a Coil set could truely abuse this, and the damage output would be poor. CaP already has decent Special Defense, and is the target to Physical Attacks anyways), it would allow it to support it's teammates on a Sun team, giving them a boost in the Special Defense department and boosting their attack. Imagine Victini spamming V-Creates in the sun with a 50% power, or even something like Terrakion with that boost. Meanwhile, most of the fire-types that are used in Sun teams run Will-o-Wisp, making the team very defensive. This would turn the CaP into a pretty good supportmon for Sun, absorbing toxic spikes and absorbing status, while also getting it's Fire STAB boosted.

    This might be a bit distracting from the concept, but it's definitely an interesting ability to consider for CaP.

    Aside from this, Water Absorb and Regenerator have my support, Water Absorb so it's not as weather reliant while also having the Water Immunity that heals it, and Regenerator for reasons I have stated.
  20. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    I am still strongly opposed to Drought. It makes the CAP a self-sustaining, absurdly powerful special attacker while still retaining some measure of its defense against bulky water types. Sun-boosted fire attacks absolutely destroy everything in the Threatened By list.

    I know damage calculations were brought up with Drought, but I'd like to add a few more...

    252+ SpA Specs CAP's Fire Blast v. Terrakion (sun): 81.4% - 96%
    Same v. offensive Dragonite (sun, no multiscale): 74.3% - 87.6%
    Same v. 212/252+ Gastrodon (sun): 47.6% - 56%

    Now, opposing weather starters were brought up as a way to deal with CAP. And they do...if it's Specs. If not?

    252+ LO CAP's HP Fighting v. 156/0 CB Tyranitar (sandstorm): 76.8% - 91.6% (ohko after SR and / or Fire Blast damage)
    Same v. 252/192+ Tyranitar: 55.4% - 65.3% (2hko, possible ohko with SR + 1 layer of spikes and Fire Blast damage)

    Minor note, 0 Atk Tyranitar's Stone Edge does not ohko us without SR.

    252+ LO Cap's Sludge Wave v. 252/0 Politoed: 58.1% - 68.8% (possible 2hko after SR + Fire Blast damage, assured with one layer of spikes)
    0 SpA Politoed's Scald v. 252/0 CAP (rain): 67.7% - 80.4%

    252+ LO Cap's Sludge Wave v. 4/0 Politoed: 69.2% - 81.6% (guaranteed ohko after SR damage and Fire Blast, although Scarf Toed will outrun us obviously)

    Note that these calculations assume no prediction - you can mindlessly spam LO Fire Blast and still beat Tyranitar and Politoed with your appropriate STAB or coverage move in common battle conditions. The idea of other weather starters being able to beat this thing is...untrue. Running Life Orb doesn't lose you a lot of notable KOs over Specs, either; it just means that Terrakion can switch into you without being immediately KO'd after SR / spikes.

    Ultimately, though, Drought is the equivalent of making Fire/Poison a good typing by giving it Slaking-level stats, except we do so with a...well, a Ninetales/Politoed-level ability. Remember, these are Pokemon with horrible stats and pretty mediocre movepools who are high OU nonetheless. Our CAP has very good stats, and pretty decent typing, and an already great ability. Drought is unnecessary to fulfill the concept, and actively works against it by threatening our Threats.

    As for abilities I do like...we need to remember that we are competing against Dry Skin, which is a fantastic ability. So we need equally fantastic abilities that open up other niches. I don't like Water Absorb or Storm Drain because...we already talked about and voted on Dry Skin, and giving it something that does essentially the same thing but mildly different strikes me as a waste. That in mind, these are some ability options that intrigue me.

    1) Lightningrod / Motor Drive. My favorite options right now. This option might seem really odd, but it has a few very cool uses. For one, it makes us an absolutely amazing response to Volt-Turn teams, being immune to Volt Switch and 4x resistant to U-Turn. Given our power and bulk, this will VoltTurn teams very hesitant to just start throwing out their scouting moves. Additionally, it makes us immune to the most common paralysis-inducing move, which grants us immunity to all forms of status except Sleep. These abilities open up a lot of niches for this CAP outside weather teams, which is something I really really want. Having this thing be oriented heavily around weather leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    2) Intimidate. Okay, you guys kept hearing me harp on about how I want this to check Fighting-types. Well, we didn't end up with a spread that has the physical tankishness I would have wanted, but Intimidate allows us to fix that. Note that everything on our Threatens list can still switch into us safely, and that it would be highly dangerous for us to switch into Tyranitar or Terrakion with or without Intimidate. STAB Stone Edge will still ruin our day. However, Intimidate will allow us to take unSTAB Stone Edge and also allow us to check physical threats like Breloom, Infernape, Mienshao, Conkeldurr, etc. That leverages our Poison-typing in a very good way
  21. Drought sounds like an absolutely awful idea. If we give CAP3 Drought, then Dry Skin is going to see very little use. Mark my words, it's going to be Krilowatt's Magic Guard all over again.

    The only major suggestions that sound like a good idea to me are Water Absorb and/or Storm Drain, because they allow the CAP to retain its immunity to Water while exchanging healing on rain teams for viability on sun teams. Are they as good as Dry Skin is? No. But they shouldn't be. We want Dry Skin to be the focus for this CAP. That's why we voted for it, and it's what we built the stats around. Selecting a secondary ability even as powerful as Dry Skin, let alone more powerful, is therefore unquestionably a mistake. If we want a competitively viable secondary ability, then it needs to be something that will likely only be used on niche builds. Dry Skin needs to remain the focus, or else what was the point in us voting for it as primary ability?

    I also definitely like the idea of have no further competitive abilities. Frankly, I think that Dry Skin is plenty enough for this CAP competitively speaking, and having two flavor abilities to work with would be fun. Liquid Ooze, Magma Armor, Sticky Hold, Tangled Feet, etc.
  22. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    I don't know about drought. Not only doesn't it really make much sense (dry skin and drought possible on the same pokemon?), it will make CAP 3 ludicrously powerful, meaning that pretty much only tyranitar, politoed, and max sp. def chansey can switch in without being 2hkoed just about. Specs toed and tales are, as we well know, very powerful and they can function great with just 81 and 90 base special attack each. Imagine how much 131 b. sp. atk will hurt. Yeah, I thought not.

    Pure power seems quite interesting, but idk if this would make CAP 3's usual checks too risky, like tentacruel and tyranitar, who wouldn't like taking a decently powered physical move.

    Storm drain and regenorator seem the most attractive options in my view at the moment.
  23. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
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    The ability I like the best would be storm drain for many reasons. Firstly, it compliments with the first ability very well as far as the water type immunity but storm drain gives more of an offensive take on cap3 and doesn't rely on rain. Also the fact that our special attack is very high and that a more defensive investment will be very desirable, a +1 boost would allow us to focus Ev's in other areas.

    On top of that, not having a water immunity would blow up cap3's threat list... And really the only way to compensate for that would be to give it drought. Even though drought will make cap3 extremely powerful offensively, it is left very vulnerable defensively so I think drought could be a good way to explore the offensive side of the fire/poison typing.

    So those are the two competitive abilities that I support and since there is really no amazing non competitive ability for cap3 ( hence the "non competitive") I'm gonna suggest poison point if we decide to go the non competitive route. The reason for this is the move venoshock and cap3s insane special attack. Poison point plus toxic spikes would poison most of the opponents team and allow cap3 to sweep easily with a stab 130 base power 100% accurate attack (venoshock has double power against poisoned pokemon for anyone that doesn't know)
  24. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    i'd like to address R_D's argument that Heatran is a better wallbreaker in sun than CAP3, and thus that CAP3 would not be broken in drought because heatran does its role better:

    certainly a compelling list, no? Well, i'd like to offer a list that equally compellingly shows that CAP3 does the job better:


    • If you use heatran, you have to lug around that piece of shit ninetales
    • Using heatran instead of CAP3 would be less conducive to winning weather wars; you would have to switch in Ninetales, then tran, in which time they could remove your weather advantage and ninetales just took 18% sr damage after leftovers, maybe an attack as well


    If Tran had gotten drought instead of flash fire, then RD's argument would be more applicable.

    also, i'd briefly address this:

    Tyranitar takes a hit and KOes back. Terrakion outspeeds and KOes. Dugtrio outspeeds and KOes. Gliscor outspeeds and KOes. Offensive tran outspeeds and KOes.
  25. SubwayJ

    SubwayJ

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    I would like to throw my support behind The Reptile's suggestion of Flower Gift.
    It by no means overpowers CAP3 because of its low attack, and It can choose between extra defensive merit in either sun or rain (but not both)

    It pretty much evens out the defensive boost in either sun or rain making it more versitile

    Other options I support are Pure/Huge Power, Adaptability and Tinted Lens
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