CAP 14 CAP 3 - Playtest (Conclusion in Post #61!)

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
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#51
Snail's out of the bag it seems.

Yeah, this thing is a Tentacruel that can run a Scarf set. However, let it be known that Tentacruel wishes it could be Mollux because Mollux has infinitely better typing, bulk, and that godly Special Attack. I wouldn't go all the way in saying that it's a Tentacruel clone, as it's more of a fusion between Heatran and Tentacruel given the roles it plays on a team. It does well against both Sun and Rain, which is why I've found it best on a Sand team because it can check both opposing weathers at once. Instead of a Sand team having to run Tentacruel and Heatran for covering Sand and Rain, Mollux can feasibly check both at the same time. However, Mollux falls short in this role in practice because it has some of the worst four-moveslot syndrome CAP has ever seen.

Mollux has every move it could dream of with the exception of Water coverage, but it can't do everything it wants to because it has to dedicate moveslots to Rapid Spin and Recover, assuming the defensive set. The Offensive set doesn't have 4MSS. Mollux, a Rain counter, shouldn't be mono-attacking with Lava Plume because it's power is pathetic in Rain. Tentacruel can get away with mono-attacking because Scald can pack a punch in Rain. Therefore, I've found it almost necessary to run two attacks on Mollux if it wants to counter Rain effectively. Sludge Wave, though a Poison move, is its best bet simply because of the STAB factor and usefulness outside of Sand. Thunderbolt is definitely a viable option as well, of course, for the better coverage and synergy with Lava Plume. No matter what Mollux's secondary coverage is, it's already at four moves with Rapid Spin, Recover, and two attacks, so it can't run Spin plus a hazard like Tentacruel can.

For that reason, Mollux cannot do very much on its own. If you run a hazard on Mollux, you need a Spinner to get rid of the hazards. If you run Spin, you have to outsource your hazard. I can't get behind the absolutely pathetic coverage of Spin+Recover+SR+RainFailPlume/ThunderGroundsLolAtYou/SludgeFail.

Mollux needs to be part of a defensive core in order to shine in my opinion.

In short, it's Tentacruel of the Sand. Tentacruel is probably better on Rain teams because it can Protect for recovery (which, face it, is good enough) and mono-attack. Mollux is better on Sand teams for being able to Recover and being a better Pokemon in general. Use SandMollux people it's really good.

EDIT: I'm not saying Mollux is a failure btw. I think Mollux is one of the more successful CAPs because it successfully fulfilled the concept. Its role in battle, however, is very similar to Tentacruel's.
 

Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
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#52
Just a few notes from an old-timer, though this might be better posted in the Final Product thread:

Replicating a similar Pokemon in function can't really be classified as a failure. When you have 400+ FE Pokemon like 5th Gen has, there's bound to be some similarities to other Pokemon, even if it's only inclusive of the 50 or so things in OU.

It's also not bad to have a Pokemon with clear weaknesses and drawbacks. You don't necessarily want something that can perform offensive and defensive roles equally, as that may make it overpowered. I imagine if we ended up giving Mollux Agility comparisons to Cloyster might be made instead, though Cloyster has a decent level of coverage and Mollux doesn't, on purpose.

In general I'm heartened to hear Mollux described as a Tentacruel / Heatran fusion, since it says to me we've built an effective defensive Fire-type that can fit in on many teams because of its unique typing / ability combination and raw offensive ability (Heatran is a particularly acute comparison, as without its Fire Immunity from Flash Fire, Fire/Steel would have some serious problems with a lot of OU, and Heatran in the sun would be far more difficult to use).

All of the sets I've used and seen to be effective always have either two-attack coverage with Recover or are entirely defensive with a single STABbed option to ward off opposing walls. In general I like it because you can't just slap it on a team with any item and watch it rampage, you have to use it intelligently and make it work with your team.

One comment I did find interesting would be that Tentacruel wants its typing. I don't really think that's true, the SR/Rock weakness in exchange for the Electric weakness along with its STAB being neutered rather than enhanced by rain would leave Fire/Poison Tentacruel wanting. They have a similar set of skills but they perform different roles for a team.

In general I still think Mollux has bad typing, but Dry Skin alleviates its biggest problem in dealing with Rain, letting the strong points of the typing shine. I also think the stats really helped out - it needs the strong offense and passable speed, I don't think a Fire/Poison Tentacruel with the same movepool but Tentacruel's lacking offensive stats would have been nearly as effective. The ability to force out Ferrothorn before it can ever lay a hazard, even in Rain, is crucial.

I'mma still say project well done, heh.
 

nyttyn

Even ghosts stray from the path of righteousness
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#53
Just to say, I don't really consider this project a failure in terms of making a successful pokemon, because Mollux is still successful. Doesn't do anything extremely new, but it's still a solid pokemon.




Still think it could've used agility though, but that's something I'll be taking to the bitter grave I suppose.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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#54
I vehemently disagree that Mollux can only run a Tentacruel-like set under the rain. I maintain that Mollux can work fantastically as not only a defensive pivot but also as an offensive pivot. Under Sand, Mollux gives the Sand team the single best mon since Gastrodon to combat the opponents rain. Mollux is way more versatile than you are giving it credit for.

I've seen many many different sets and while the strictly "best" one may be the supporter, other spreads and movepools are totally viable and work well as small surprises. I really do wonder what people would be saying if Mollux had not gotten Rapid Spin. Would everyone claim it was awful? I sure hope not. I still haven't used Mollux as a spinner and, in fact, face no difficulties against spinning Mollux. I find it a mediocre spinner in many ways.


Anyway... On a separate topic, how do people think Tspikes Mollux will affect the CAP meta game? Right now it's fairly useless, but what about when you have Arghonauts to break down?
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#55
Anyway... On a separate topic, how do people think Tspikes Mollux will affect the CAP meta game? Right now it's fairly useless, but what about when you have Arghonauts to break down?
tomo is immune to tspikes, every other mon is irrelevant

edit: tho when i'm not being a smart-ass (with good points), I don't think mollux will want to use Tspikes anyway. Soil has guts and can spin them (though who uses soil anymore), tomo and kit avoid them, fidgit and mollux absorb them, along with all your usual OU suspects. Mollux in the suspect test will probably be best seen on Hail teams who are already trying to be anti-meta, because it can a) buttrape opposing hail and b) buttrape opposing rain. to do so, i bet it would want a 4 attacks set. or at least 3 attacks and recover. mollux is a shitty supporter.
 

Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
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#56
As others have noted, Gliscor and Mollux make a neat little core and can together cause some serious damage in this metagame. I won't pretend like I'm the first person to think of this pair, but I thought I might as well post my version of the duo, as I've found some success with it:


Mollux @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
Nature: Modest

Flamethrower
Rapid Spin
Toxic
Protect


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 212 Spe
Nature: Impish

Earthquake
Substitute
Toxic
Protect

I use the duo for Toxic stalling and general mayhem because they each have access to increased, continuous healing (stalling) and STAB attacks that can eliminate foes that can't be stalled. Only Balloon Heatran can boast an immunity to both movesets, and that sort of thing can't last too long. When Mollux or Gliscor get in safely on an immunity or weak/resisted attack (of which there are plenty in OU), it's off to the races and Toxic stalling is a go. When it comes to the Steel-types that cannot be Toxic-stalled, Mollux can handle Skarm/Scizor/Ferro/Forry/Zong, as well as Breloom, if Gliscor can handle Balloon-less Heatran and opposing Mollux. Gliscor is also the "main" staller of the pair by virtue of Speed, Poison Heal, and Substitute, which is why it has less offensive responsibility to Steel-type threats (both can hit Metagross, Magnezone, Jirachi, and Lucario, so they are less of a concern).

The pair boasts immunities to the common Water, Electric, and Ground-type attacks, and they are also both immune to all forms of damaging status (Gliscor is immune to all status), which will play severe mindgames with opponents. Mollux completely compensates for Gliscor's common Water-type weak spot and creates a lot of anxiety for opponents by actually healing itself when switching into such attacks. Mollux also resists incoming Ice attacks (mostly weaker and without STAB), has generally superior Special bulk, and can take advantage of opposing Rain teams. In return, Gliscor is immune to Mollux's glaring Ground weakness, is a better response to physical threats, and can also check plenty of common Sandmons that would threaten Mollux. Gliscor can also take quite a few Rock-type attacks (49.7% - 58.8% from Jolly CB Terrakion Stone Edge, stallable) from the Fighting types that may be trying to lure Mollux in.

Magnezone support doubles up on Ground weaknesses, however it gives the core some leeway against Lati@s while doing its normal Steel-trapping thing and allowing the pair to focus on the Toxic strategy. Blissey is a good team member as well for soaking up the powerful Special attacks that this duo struggles with, making SkarmBliss or Blissey+[Steel-type] a good combination for defensive teammates. Finally, the VoltTurn core of Scizor and Rotom-W can really frustrate opponents trying to avoid the safe re-entry of these terrible Toxicmons, and the type synergy amongst the four is phenomenal. Rotom-W also crucially helps with opposing Gliscor (watch out for Toxic Staller Gliscor though!).

Specifically:

Mollux:

The EVs are designed to allow Mollux to outrun 36 Spe Celebi, which is a little arbitrary, I'll admit, but Mollux can cleanly 2HKO the little pixie and outrun some other fun things along the way, including Adamant Breloom (OHKO), Timid Magnezone (OHKO), 72 Spe Gliscor (52% - 61.3%, reliable chance of 2HKO factoring in SR, Poison Heal, and one use of Protect), and SpD Jirachi (2HKO w/SR). It also lets Mollux get more crucial Rapid Spins off before I sack it to tankier opponents. Speaking of Rapid Spin, Mollux learns Rapid Spin! It sacrifices longevity in the Toxic wars in exchange for a neat little utility move a la Tentacruel (Tenta can indeed run a similar set to great effect in conjunction with Gliscor, but the Fire STAB is really actually what sets Mollux apart here). This helps tremendously with team support and allows Mollux to fully stand in the way of OU's most common layer stackers: Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. While it can only wear down Jellicent with Toxic, Jellicent can't do much back to it. So, while Mollux heals off its hazard wounds, Jellicent has to sit on its poison timer and Taunt on a non-Protecting turn and switch out or just switch out.

Offensively, Mollux can OHKO or 2HKO every non-Heatran Steel-type outside of Rain. In Rain, it can still OHKO CB Scizor and Forretress (81.4% - 96% to SpD Forry), and it can 2HKO standard Ferrothorn (54.5% - 64.8% to 252/252+ Ferro) and Skarmory (58.1% - 68.9%, 39.5% - 46.7% to SpD Skarm). This of course means Mollux can still abuse Dry Skin in the Rain and pose a threat to the same Steel types that stand in the way of Toxic stalling, which is a huge success, considering the ~19% healing per turn that comes along with it (more than Gliscor!). The power boost of Flamethrower is needed here, since nets more KOs, so I opted out of Lava Plume.

Gliscor:

Gliscor has to take down Heatran, and so I've given it enough Speed to do just that (outrunning Lucario is so gen. IV), with the rest going into Defenses. I don't have to do a lot of explaining here to justify Gliscor's #1 set, but let's just all agree that it's a monster and is one of the coolest toys in the metagame right now.
 

Birkal

caw
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#57
Love the post, Korski. I've basically been running the same Toxic stall set on Gliscor, but I took Mollux in a bit of a different direction. That's probably because I'm a lil' pansy who's too afraid to commit to full on Toxic stall, haha. Your post is convincing enough that I want to try it out though, haha.

Anyways, when I came into this playtest, I really don't know what I was expecting. I've been developing my own thoughts and reading some here. I guess I would say that I do consider Mollux to be some sort of Tentacruel/Heatran lovechild. Its defensive and supportive sets are definitely they way to play, in my opinion. I love that Mollux has many of the options of both mons, like SR, Tspikes, Lava Plume, and Rapid Spin. The addition of Recover sweetens the deal even more. Its 131 base SpA gives it some much needed oomph on those defensive sets.

I'd also like to draw the comparison between Mollux and mons like Excadrill, Toxicroak, and Venusaur. Basically, its effectiveness is based off of its reliance on weather. Initially, I questioned whether or not Mollux would be OU. However, I do believe that it would be OU because of a) the abundance of Politoed that already exists and b) it functions phenomenally within the rain. Venusaur wouldn't be OU without Ninetales; similarly, Excadrill wouldn't've been banned to Ubers if it weren't so good in sand. Mollux is a continuation of this, in my opinion. If Politoed didn't exist, Mollux wouldn't have a shot at OU. However, it performs so well in the rain that I would argue that it would naturally sneak its way into OU. It's supportive and Specs/Scarf sets are so tempting to utilize when you're running rain. I have further thoughts on whether we accomplished our original concept or not, but I'll save that until the end of the playtest.

Also, I wouldn't recommend using a Calm Mind set. Imagine if Heatran got CM; it probably wouldn't use it. It's already got enough Special Attack and it can go specifically defensive if it needs to. CM doesn't fix any of its problems; it's still rather slow and easily susceptible to Ground-type attacks. I've been trying to get a CM set to work in the playtest just for kicks, but it's not going very well, haha.
 

nyttyn

Even ghosts stray from the path of righteousness
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#58
It is not that Mollux cannot run non-spin sets. In fact, it can.

It's simply that its non-defensive spin/hazard sets are all outclassed by other pokemon in ou, with the sole exception of the scarf setting having utility as being the only viable scarfer that gets leftovers recovery (albiet requiring lane to have said leftovers). Still, scarf set is outclassed due to lack of coverage.

Keyword outclassed. It's viable, it has surprise value, but NEVER rely on surprise value.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
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#60
True, I can't think of a single OU-viable user of Acid Spray. But that could also be because because Acid Spray is not the most competitively viable move in and of itself, with such low, non-threatening BP to start with, and its effect arguably being a weaker Nasty Plot. One thing that make it pretty cool though is that special attackers actually make decent partners to it now, since Reuniclus can't just come in and start setting up; it'll be at -1 even if it sets up immediately, and if Mollux can't take advantage of the drop then and there, Starmie or Hydreigon can get in there and show the little blob how OU does shit on a rainy day.
 

Birkal

caw
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#61
And with that, the results from the playtest are in! After two weeks of competitive battling, we've come to our conclusion this very evening. Tons of Mollux sets have been roaming the ladder, ranging from Choice Scarf to Toxic stall. It's been a great time, in my opinion; I know that I was greatly looking forward to this playtest ever since we picked our concept. Remember, there are a few rules in order to be considered as a playtest finalist. They are:

  • Your ranked account must be registered to verify identity.
  • Your ranked account, at the end of the playtest, must not have a 'Provisional Rating' to reduce the impact of ladder abuse based on the way ACRE works now.



Coming in at #1 is DetriotLolcat, who has both a registered account as lolcat and has passed the provisional ranking! He will be crowned as our Playtest Champion and be recognized on site for his dedication. Coming in second would be the name Plusle. However, this account is currently unidentifiable so we cannot give credit for this achievement. If you are user Plusle, please PM me on Smogon's forums. If you registered that name on Pokemon Showdown!, I can confirm that registration and give you credit as our #2 player.

The top 5 players that meet the requirements are as follows:
Code:
 ACCOUNT    ACRE    SMOGON ACCOUNT
----------------------------------
Lolcat      1967     DetriotLolcat
Plusle      1915     Plusle 
Pwnemon.3   1825     Pwnemon
Birkal      1807     Birkal
jas61292    1768     jas61292
If you have any final thoughts on CAP3 in relation to its playtest, go ahead and post them in this topic. We'd all love to hear your thoughts! If you want to discuss Mollux in general, check out the Final Product thread. Thanks for playing, ladies and gentlemen. I'll see you next CAP!
 

nyttyn

Even ghosts stray from the path of righteousness
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#62
Final Thoughts, mark deux!

Original Final Thoughts
Right, after hearing about and trying out Mollux in a lot of scenarios, I believe now is the time to give my final thoughts:

In short, Mollux can be described as a square peg in a round hole.

First of all, while Mollux has a lot of options at its disposal, it tends to have to heavily segment itself into parts. This is a consequence of its awkward stat spread. As a result, once you see one, sometimes two tops, moves of a Mollux's moveset, you will 9 times out of 10 know exactly what Mollux is running. This is unfortunate as Mollux really requires the opponent not knowing what it is to do its job.

STATS

To further understand Mollux's issues, we have to delve into its stats. First thing's first: Speed. My god, we could not have given this thing a more awkward speed. Quite frankly, this ties in with ability. We should not have given it stats until after the secondary ability polls, as this speed was clearly designed with drought in mind. Using RD's ideal EVs of 248 HP / 88 SpA / 172 SpE Modest, we can kill steel/grass types with lava plume, sure...but that leaves it outclassed by Magnezone utterly. So, really, 76 speed just shoots it in the foot for the roles it excels at, as it's too fast for trick room while too slow for any speed investment without scarf. Mollux is, unless running the rare scarf set, going to run last. I'll go back to why this is a problem in a minute.

Its defensive stats are...well, they work. Makes it go up against bulky waters with ease, which is what it mostly wants to do. Can survive one sassy Ttar stone edge at max HP, but don't expect it to take physical non-fighting/grass hits without investment.

131 SpAtk wrecks faces, but is crippled by the speed. It can run a scarf set, but it's outclassed. More on that in a bit.

ABILITY
Hardcounters bulky waters and spins in the rain. Use Illuminate on scarfed sun sets. Niche usage: Water soaker on sand teams. Sun teams already have chlorophyll so not as important, plus dry skin hurts in the sun.

MOVEPOOL

Rapid Spin + Recover + Protect / Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes + Attack under the rain.

This is all Mollux can feasibly run in a nutshell. I don't mean that simply because it's the best set Mollux has, I mean it because Mollux has no setup moves that work, simply because of its EdgeQuake weakness. Look at all the common setup sweepers in OU, and you'll see a common trend - either they have typings that lack horrible weaknesses, which let them set up repeatedly, or they have a way to boost their speed at the same time as their other stats.

The movepool itself has many options, it's just that Mollux is outclassed in almost every roll.


TYING IT ALL TOGETHER

Mollux had a really, really good chance here to be an offensive presence as well as a defensive presence to help migate its x2 and x4 weaknesses, as suddenly it can beat common switchins with a surprise agility! But no, all it has is calm mind, and the ease of which ground and rock types/attackers come in on it means that it can't do shit and has to swap out. In addition, its taking a full quarter of health every time it switches in, so it can't try many times to set up. This makes it automatically inferior in every aspect to every other setup sweeper, as it doesn't have the resistances to pull off a bulky setup, nor the speed to pull off a one turn setup. Plus, although dry skin recovery is nice, fire, its main attacking STAB (lol poison) gets cut in half by the rain.

Can it run a scarf set? Maybe. But if you look at the likes of other scarf users, such as Terrakion and Salamence, you'll see they have high speed and overwhelming offenses, as well as diverse movepools. Mollux has a low enough speed that it cannot properly outspeed and revenge many common +1 spe sweepers, and crappy enough defenses that Blissey and friends just stop it cold. Not to mention its (lack of) coverage, making it even more ill suited to the job of a scarfer. In addition, it requires an inordinate ammount of prediction, as being locked into the wrong move spells your doom. In summary: Outclassed

Can it run a specs set? No. It does not have the coverage, and it is too slow. It is also outclassed by other bulkier specs users. It might work in trick room, but then blissey the fat whore comes in and ruins your day. Or airloon heatran. Plus there's the problem of trick room being painful to set up.

Can it run a Cleric set? No, it has nothing that a cleric wants.

So what can it run?

Tentacruel's set. Mollux is, pretty much, Tentacruel 2.0.

SUMMARY
You'll notice outclassed pops up a lot here. That's because that's what Mollux is. For all the toys he get, he can't really use them. He's too slow and lacks the coverage to use scarf, too predictable and slow to use specs, too squishy, weak, and predictable to use life orb...

Which leaves him with a spin, recover, attack, hazard set to use. Which, while great, is...pretty much all he can do.

So uh, if you want to know what Mollux can and cannot do, just imagine a better Tentacruel with fire instead of water typing. We...didn't really create anything new here. I appologize if this seems like it ran out of steam at the end, but...

well...

it's tentacruel.



tl;dr
=
but better.
Mollux in a song: http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/169148

I have decided to redefine Mollux. To call it simply Tentacruel is a bit of a simplification. Instead, Mollux is a interesting hybrid of defense and offense, having the BST to be tanky while at the same time having a high enough SpAtk to leave a dent should it chose to attack.

Therein lies Mollux's greatest asset, and yet at the same time its most crippling flaw. It can do a wide range of things, but it can only pull off one set better then anyone else. Then again, surprise factor can count for a lot. Using a non-spin Mollux is very much a high stakes gamble - but one with a high reward. Know however that you cannot half ass Mollux and spread him in several directions - you have to go all in with this mollusk.



also illuminate sucks



how the fuck did I get fifth
 

jas61292

used substitute
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#63
Well, I had a great time with this playtest. Mollux was a lot of fun to use, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Honestly, this playtest made me think of Mollux as one of those Pokemon that is low OU or even UU, but not because it is not good in OU. It has niche roles that no one else can fufil, but outside of those few areas is outclassed by Pokemon like Tentacreul and Heatran. Personally, I think that this is basically a successful realization of the concept. Now, it is debatable whether or not it succeed in these roles due to its typing or in spite of it, but either way, it definitely provided positives that helped it realized its niche.

And congratulations to DetroitLolcat for finishing at the top. Great job.
 
#64
Man should have played more games, would have been finished top 5. Too bad. Fun play test though.

I found mollux to be fairly underwhelming though, but his impact was widely felt. Ferrothorn completely disappeared, making some very rarely seen Pokemon completely thrive in the play test.with the prevalence of rain teams, kingdra became a very useful Mon, and dug trio became very useful for trapping opposing weather starters(minus politoad) and for quickly eliminating mollux as well.
 
#65
This may be because I never used Mollux in the playtest, but I found it to be rather under whelming. I already had Heatran on my team who was my offensive fire type w/ hazards so I didn't feel the need to swap out. All I changed to my team was giving my Starmie Psychic instead of T-bolt for the occasional surprise KO. But most of the time, and I mentioned it on the previous page, I just used my Mienshao's Stone Edge to take it out. I was worried that I'd have to find a replacement for my Scizor as Mollux walks all over him, but I didn't need to do that either.

Making Mollux was fun, though it did take some turns I wish it hadn't. (Soo wanted to use a gimmicky coil set at least once just for lulz) But overall, I'm happy with the final outcome. Mollux has found a role it works well in and I feel that we did make a pokemon that uses its bad type as an advantage. I sat most of CaP3 out, only participating in the polls, but since school is out now I plan to be participating much more. Looking forward to the future of CaP.
 
#66
I am Plusle in that screenshot. Congrats to lolcat for winning.

I found Mollux to be a good spinner on my sand team as well as a counter to rain teams but the Stealth Rock weakness hurts it a lot as well as the ground weakness. I think it has a niche role in OU because of its versatality allowing it to run a lot of effective sets.
 
#67
Wish I knew when this ended so I could have gotten rid of the provisional rating [Logic], anyways Mollux was really cool to use albeit it was inconsistent [being extremely useful in some matches while more of a liability in others], needless to say the team I made with Mollux is one I'm really proud of and wouldnt work without it. Congrats lolcat.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#68
yeah i played lolcat a great many times on the ladder and no matter how hard i tried i could never break his team, a greatly deserved #1 spot on the ladder bro! ($#&! Reuniclus)

if only plusle could have played my latest iteration of my mollux playtest team i am nearly positive i could have beat him... :P ah well, i'm very content with third considering that i'm terrible at Pokemon!
 
#69
I really wish I would've played more :/ Ah well... It was a lot of fun while it lasted (which was until I deleted cookies and stuff only to find out that doing so deleted my team off of PS! )