CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 11 - Movepool Limits

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bugmaniacbob

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#1
So this is now a thing

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This is the stage where we set limits to Aurumoth's movepool ahead of the actual movepool submissions. According to the B2W2-updated Base Stat Ratings, Aurumoth's stats generate a rating of 384.059 (Excellent). According to the on-site article, an Excellent BSR corresponds to a Good movepool limit of 65 total moves and 30 "Very Good Moves". However, we may end up going higher or lower depending on the Pokémon. That is where this thread comes in. The list of VGMs can be found in this article.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Topic Leader (ArthropodMasterRobert) will decide the movepool limits for CAP 4 upon the conclusion of this thread.

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Below is CAP 4 so far:

Name: Aurumoth



Name: Risky Business
(formerly "Living On the Edge")

General Description: This Pokémon is very risky to play, but very rewarding if played correctly.

Justification: Many of the Pokémon that are successful in OU are relatively easy to play or have great "safe" options (e.g. U-turn). Yet, many other Pokémon look very powerful, but are less successful than they could be because of some large risks involved (e.g. Hydreigon), and some aren't successful at all (e.g. Honchkrow). This self-balancing concept intends to explore what it takes for a risky Pokémon to be successful, and how much inherent risk a Pokémon can get away with. It should be emphasized that this concept is NOT about luck management, but rather, it is about what the user can afford to do given his/her opponent's options, and vice versa.

Questions To Be Answered:

  • What is the relationship between risk and potential consequences, both positive and negative?
  • What kinds of inherently risky tactics are successful in the OU metagame?
  • Do risky Pokémon need some form of safe options (e.g. switch-ins) to be successful in OU, or can it get away with having few really safe options?
  • How does Substitute, a well-known "safe" move with nearly universal distribution, impact how this Pokémon is built and played?
  • How do existing Pokémon use and deal with risky situations?
  • Can risky Pokémon be played well in the early game, or are they better off put into action later on?
  • How do different playstyles interact with risky situations?
Typing: Bug / Psychic
Abilities: Weak Armour / Illusion / No Guard
Base Stats: 110 HP / 120 Atk / 99 Def / 117 SpA / 60 SpD / 94 Spe
 

bugmaniacbob

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#2
So, we come to our final preparation stage for our movepool submissions, and indeed the penultimate competitive stage. This is, my dears, the movepool limits. Since this stage isn't up on site yet (a matter I have tried to rectify, so the TL for CAP 5 shouldn't have to explain this), I'll go through it quickly. In essence, what we must accomplish is to decide the Maximum Total Number of moves that all movepools will be allowed to have, as well as the Maximum Total Number of Very Good Moves that movepools will be allowed to have. For a reference on what moves we are considering to be Very Good Moves, please see the Movepool Submissions guide on-site.

Now, this CAP has a BSR of "Excellent", which recommends a Total Maximum of 65 and a VGM maximum of 30. However, I personally believe that this is not enough – a large part of our Pokemon's success will likely come from versatility, and more to the point, I want to ensure that both offensive and support options are being given equal footing. Thus, I am upping the limits from 65/30 to 75/35.

So, this is the base we are going to build the limits around.

Here's the important info:

Number of Attacking VGMs: 39 (2 potential repeats)
Number of Non-Attacking VGMs: 39 (7 potential repeats)

Bear in mind that clearly not all of these will be able to fit on the movepool.

As a reference, Dragonite and Gengar have around 50 VGMs each, as a mark of "this is stupidly high versatility". Granted that they can't use most of these moves, but still. Mollux had a limit of 40, Necturna had a limit of 30 (though with Sketch) and Tomohawk had a limit of 35.

So, I think the following question is really the most important:

Is a limit of 35 or 40 VGMs optimal for this CAP, or somewhere in the middle?

Of the work-in-progress movepools I have currently seen, all of them function perfectly well as cohesive movepools with the 35 VGM limit, but at the same time all lack some moves that could be nice little niche or flavour options. So, food for thought.

Of course, you are all more than free to argue for any number above or below the starting number of 35 if you wish. I would prefer not to exceed the total move count of 75, but you can argue on that count too if you really must – not that it makes much difference, competitively speaking.

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BMB's obligatory Topic Leader footnote gimmick - My Top 15 Arthropods

#3 The Robber Crab



Fascinating Fact said:
The best crab ever, in my humble opinion. These are the largest of all terrestrial crabs – in fact, the biggest land arthropods full stop – but are restricted mostly to islands (or rather, basically anywhere there are coconuts). They can climb trees to get to their precious coconuts and smash the coconuts into pieces with their claws. They are related to hermit crabs, and the young even mimic the habit of using snail shells to cover for their lack of a carapace. Despite having gills, they can't swim and will actually drown if you leave them in the water for long enough – hence, they are pretty much the only exclusively land-living crab in the world. Sadly, they are thought to be a tad endangered.

Interestingly enough, in 1951, 26 people who fell asleep on an island beach were killed by robber crabs, which apparently mistook their heads for coconuts, and well… I'll let you figure out the rest.
 
#3
Definitely go for 40. A lot of VGMs fit the flavour of Aurumoth (or, at least, strongly fits the typing and/or abilities and/or in-demand moves) that are next to useless on it.
 
#4
I agree with Capefeather; Aurumoth should get if not 40 VGM's then at least close to it. One of the cool things about Aurumoth is that it seems to be really versatile, and we don't want to put too much of a damper on that.
 
#5
I support 40 VGMs because 50, like BMB said is stupidly high versatility, and considering Aurumoth is a psudo-legend, I feel as though it would overpower itself. 30 is too low to effectively go around battling, because then movesets get predictable and stale.
 
#6
I also find 40 VGMs to be a good number. Although Aurumoth may not need too many moves to operate as a sweeper, I really want to see some attempt at a support set with options to choose from happen - and for that, there's no way around how most of them add to the VGMs already present. Therefore 75/40 seems right (75 total moves should also be enough for our purposes).
 

jas61292

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#7
Well, while I would have no problem with 40, I really don't think we need that many, and I feel making it higher will encourage people to throw in more competitive moves just for the hell of it. Personally I would prefer something a bit lower, say, 38, as it will make people have to think a bit more rather than just throwing a few more competitive VGMs in. Though, as I said, if we end up with 40, I think it would be fine. As cape said, there are plenty of VGMs that are more about flavor for Aurumoth that would be cool to have room for.
 

Birkal

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#10
I am gonna be "that guy" and suggest that 40 is both unnecessary and a big jump from the recommended 30 for an excellent BSR. I personally think the job can be done just fine in 35.
 

ZhengTann

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#11
Was only here during that same discussion last CAP, so I'm gonna compare a little...

Mollux discussion said:
...Ended up with 75/40 due to limited coverage, but wide range of support moves.
In comparison, Aurumoth was supposed to have versatile coverage, but less so on support options. With the potential repeats provided by BMB - meaning we're more likely to have less than 78 VGMs to choose from - I'm more in favour of going for less than 40. We don't have to adhere strictly to 30 or even 35 VGMs - cape has said that there are plenty of flavour VGMs that wouldn't fit otherwise. But I think that, given Aurumoth's typing (which isn't exactly miles better than Mollux), Excellent BSR (on par with Mollux), having 40 provides more of a distraction rather than leeway for movepool submissions.
 
#12
I think 32-36 VGMs is perfectly sufficient; realistically, Aurumoth probably isn't going to need a massive movepool to be effective; it just needs the right moves for the right situations. I'm naturally more inclined to a minimalist approach - in my opinion the less we clutter its movepool, the better.
 
#13
To, support my argument of 40 VGMs, I reccommend going over the moves allowed/required for Aurumoth and thinking "What does it need?" Personally, I found 40 VGMs to be a comfortable number to make "risky" movesets and offered just the right amount of versatility.
 

Korski

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#14
This post may come as a surprise to anyone who's been on IRC recently, but I actually think we should stick with 35 VGMs. I happen to have constructed my draft movepool already, a challenging process that I sloppily poured onto the #cap room over a period of several days and often resulted in me cursing the 35 VGM limit as though it had harmed me or my loved ones personally, to everyone. HOWEVER as I look at my "complete-but-changeable" movepool with its 75/35 limits agonizingly reached, I see what is in my opinion a completely viable and cohesive set of moves. Yes, I had to make sacrifices of moves I really wanted Aurumoth to have, and I included all the terrible "required VGMs" like Frustration and Rain Dance, and I let the Type-Move and Move-Move lists eat up my VGM slots as much as the TL-list would allow, and still in the end I wouldn't write off my movepool as "incomplete" or "less-than-desirable." It is focused, for sure, because of the limit, but I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. Some people will focus on one group of things, others will focus on other groups of things, and in the end I presume one of the focused movepools will be chosen by the community as the one with the most popular focus. Versatility (which isn't even related to the concept as far as I can tell, besides being "good to have") can be achieved with 35 VGMs, as can good flavor; just because it's more difficult than usual to make movepool decisions doesn't mean we should skirt the rules any further than we already have by upping the limit from 30.
 

bugmaniacbob

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#15
Near enough 24 hours so let's wrap this up.

My qualms with 35 VGMs were not about any loss of versatility; rather, they stemmed from a fear that people would sacrifice interesting support options to ensure Aurumoth's sweeping ability remained intact.

In comparison, Aurumoth was supposed to have versatile coverage, but less so on support options.
I don't know where you got that idea, but it's patently not true.

As such, I feel that, given support in this thread, I am in favour of going above 35 VGMs, but that 40 is somewhat excessive. Ergo, I'll put down limits of 75/38 as a compromise, which should allow for cohesive movepools, with a bit of leeway, without going overboard.

And now, crunch time. Stay tuned...
 
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