1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 12 - Complete Movepool Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Nov 1, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    203
    Thanks so much for pointing that out Korski, I don't know how I could've missed it...

    Glad to be of help. It's more interesting with everybody's answers clarifying where you're coming from.


    And to capefeather in particular.... I'll put it in hide tags since this is a long reply.

    Show Hide
    Perhaps my tone was too harsh. You have your methodology as I have mine, and it's not up to me to judge which is right or wrong. I can admit it's valid and will produce its fair results, especially when you put so much effort into your research, it shows in the movepoll.

    But as regards to the special frame... I did read your proposal carefully. Really, I did. I just didn't refer to your competitive concerns because the conservatist in me is opposed to the idea on principle. However, that's not to say I don't see what a threat Aurumoth at +2 Speed (or +2 QD outright) can pose in OU.

    The way I see it, however, by that point Aurumoth is fully setup, primed to sweep entire teams. The difficulties and risks taken await their reward. That a bulkier set aiming to reach +2 would be discovered isn't a surprise for me, I took it as something for granted.

    Does this mean Quiver Dance on Aurumoth would be broken, if joined by its coverage moves? Well, here we differ in opinion capefeather. When I got to this point along similar reasoning, I concluded 'Aurumoth shouldn't have QD'. And I ended right there.

    I didn't go off on a tangent proposing an alternate forme just to experiment 'what if Aurumoth had the boosts but none of the coverage?' You can theorymon that one yourself, but for the CAP process, I don't think pulling everybody into such an experiment is good. Even if the public warmed up to the idea, I'd be concerned about breaking precedent.

    But, as I said, that's my inner conservatist speaking.

    If you're that confident about this plan, I'll wait until the movepoll with its proposed alternate forme appears in the upcoming poll. It's fun discussing 'what if's' but if I finished this reply asking you for proof that's the best solution, which none of us can provide anyway, I'd start thread hogging. So I'll wait for the results to defend themselves. For what it's worth, I wish you good luck from here on still.


    .... hmm, didn't get ninja'ed for once. Cool.
  2. ThePhalanx

    ThePhalanx

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2011
    Messages:
    255
    One quick question. Is Glare outclassed by Thunder Wave as a VGM? TWave is 100% accurate, and can hit Ghost types. However Glare can hit Ground types. I'm asking this because I want to see if I need to remove something from my movepool so I can fit in the correct amount of VGMs.
  3. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,304
    No, it isn't. These lists are on-site if you need to look at them.

    Also briefly while jotting down movepools on the spreadsheet: Mdevil, you say you have Bug Buzz and Sucker Punch in your explanation, but neither are actually anywhere in your movepool. Furthermore, you've also not counted some moves, such as Sleep Talk, as VGMs where you should have done. Just letting you know - by my count the movepool as you already have it has 38 VGMs, so you may have to remove some stuff to fit Bug Buzz and Sucker Punch in.

    EDIT2: @Rediamond: You have 39 VGMs - you failed to count Blizzard as a VGM, I think.

    EDIT3: @ Nyktos: You have 37 VGMs, rather than 38.

    EDIT: I have a few comments to make later, but I'm only updating the spreadsheet for now.
  4. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    I had a feeling I missed something. I'll re check my written pool and edit that by tommorrow.
  5. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,304
    As a note, it helps if you point out where you make a change rather than just posting your entire submission again. But thanks and fixed.

    Nope. OHKO moves are banned from being used in OU anyway, so there's not much point disallowing them from movepools.

    Plus if the Ubers Council does end up unbanning OHKO moves, AND we get a CAP Ubers ladder, No Guard Aurumoth will be hilarious. And yeah, No Guard does actually make OHKO moves always hit (its effect has nothing to do with stat-related accuracy modifiers).

    I don't think we need to worry too much about these two. It's not like they have any competitive relevance anyway.
  6. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    My movepool has been fixed at the cost of Pusuit, Cut, and Fly. I was tired during my original post and had done some bad math (had 76 moves.) Also a VGM list has been added for convenience. I could have miscounted again, though so don't take my word at the new 38/75 total.

    Edit: I have some free time; going to add the egg move parents.

    Edit 2: It took me a bit to figure out the formatting; but I completed the mission.
  7. srk1214

    srk1214 The Wuthering Heights of Billionaire Gay Dinosaur Fiction
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,405
    So uh... I'm not sure how much longer this thread is gonna be open, but it turns out I may have a submission with extremely limited explanations. At the moment nothing is in my submission, and really, I don't have much more written elsewhere anyway. Alas my 4 exams this week take much, much, much higher precedence. Might stay up late tonight and do some shoddy work just to get something added in before the deadline, since I probably won't get another chance until the 7th, which I assume is much too late.
  8. Verminator

    Verminator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    101
    I just did a fuckhuge edit to my post, adding explanations and changing a fair amount of shit. It's probably going to be the last version before the final submission.
  9. uwnim

    uwnim

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    198
    I have all the moves I want it to have in my movepool now. Unless someone points out an error, it won't change from its current form. Only thing left to do is add supporting reasoning and explanations.
  10. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,884
    I knew people would comment on my tone... :(

    The movepool stage has become a weird stage for me. In the past two CAP projects, I had my movepool submission go up against a submission that I did not agree with at all in the final poll, only to lose to my opponent. I won't lie when I say I felt badly about these losses, not only for myself but also for the submissions that I felt were significantly better than the winners, and to which I really wouldn't have minded losing. There has also been the pressure from winning the other two competitive submission contests and trying to pull off that hat trick / turkey. So I apologize for coming off as somewhat hostile to other submissions this time around. I have made an effort to tone down that aspect of my movepool descriptions.

    I have also been meaning to make a statement with the whole alternate forme thing. The movepool discussions really left the Quiver Dance issue inconclusive, in my opinion, because each side was arguing from completely different perspectives, one assuming Quiver Dance and saying how un-risky that would be, and the other not assuming Quiver Dance and saying how bad that would be. There is clearly this huge divide that Quiver Dance arguably overcompensates for, when the ideal may require something in between. That was what my proposal was meant to illustrate, as I didn't have much of an opportunity to conduct a more thorough investigation during that time.

    All that said, I've taken to investigating the Quiver Dance issue a bit further. To my surprise, I found another check, not in the 70+ scarfers, but in 252 HP Choice Specs Politoed:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. +2 100 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in rain: 357-420 (100.56 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ SpA (custom) Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 225-265 (58.59 - 69.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252+ SpA (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 316-374 (82.29 - 97.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252+ SpA (custom) Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 400-472 (104.16 - 122.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 292-344 (76.04 - 89.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    In a way, it makes sense to find a check in an offensive Politoed set, since Politoed is one of the best checks to Aurumoth by design (with respect to the stats). The surprising thing, though, is that it essentially compels QD Aurumoth to run Thunderbolt or Thunder. Moreover, Politoed actually loses if it switches into Tail Glow (multiply the first Bug Buzz calc by 5/3... yeah...) or Swords Dance Aurumoth. This, I suspect, changes a lot.

    Those of you who can think back to Necturna may remember that we designated four solid checks for it. This resulted in a Pokémon that was very good, but arguably not top-tier material, and certainly not as broken as people initially thought when they considered Sketch morphing into Shell Smash, Sacred Fire and Spore. And that was when we designated four solid checks to an entire Pokémon. My proposal was meant to make Aurumoth scramble for coverage moves, but maybe it already does this. Without Thunderbolt, Politoed wins (if it hits) and Skarmory becomes annoying. Without Psychic or Ice Beam, the Therians, Dragonite and Salamence are significantly more threatening. Without Focus Blast, Heatran becomes a problem. And if you go Bug Buzz / Thunder(bolt) / Ice Beam? Terrakion and Magnezone murder that. And of course there are always Scizor and Jirachi.

    Quiver Dance might still end up being stupid with Illusion and/or Weak Armour. We might still have luck factors deciding matches. Should Quiver Dance be restricted to No Guard? Should I just go with my TM illegality thing? Or should Quiver Dance be dropped? I'm still not sure, and I'm pretty sure that, in the end, no one's sure about this.

    I disagree with the notion of comparing Aurumoth to Volcarona and concluding that it's less risky and less rewarding. Like I said in my movepool submission, I think that this is a misleading way of thinking about risk and reward. One of the questions posed in the concept submission is:

    • What is the relationship between risk and potential consequences, both positive and negative?
    What I've been getting out of this process is that risk and reward aren't independent of each other. A lack of reward is a risk in itself, and a lack of risk is a reward in itself. Treating them differently does not tell the whole story about risk.

    I also disagree with the general fixation on Volcarona. We can't just look at successful Pokémon and conclude that we'll learn more if a CAP is not successful than if it's strong as hell. I certainly don't think we'll learn much more if Aurumoth becomes more like Honchkrow or Magmortar. Even Hydreigon is beginning to become a liability because of Genesect.

    I also agree with Korski in that I don't think that having one set is necessarily a bad thing, especially if there is a lot of move and ability variation. In fact, that might be a good thing. Predictability is a risk in itself. I'll be honest; I always envisioned Aurumoth having one or two sets with minor variations. Though I haven't said "no" to the notion of multiple sets, I'm not sure we necessarily learn a whole lot by making Aurumoth super-versatile.

    It's funny because, at the beginning of this process, I never really imagined that I'd post a serious defense of a sweeper setup move, even if it's not conclusive and I've said as much. My original attitude toward this concept was "aim carefully or die". So it's been interesting to see where Aurumoth has gone so far. Maybe this seems strange coming from the guy who won concept and stats, but it's true.

    tl;dr: Sorry for talking like a jerk in my submission. I'm still giving a lot of thought into Quiver Dance and I think it deserves a better look than what we had in the movepool discussions.

    At below: I suppose you can, but it might be a little bit weird.
  11. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    Capefeather: Do you mind if I take a quote from your last post and use it in the reasoning for my submission? (I wouldn't ask if it wasn't a submission.)

    Edit: the quote(s) were added into the Overall Reasoning section of my movepool; feel free to check it out.
  12. Rediamond

    Rediamond

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    3,171
    Removed Dragon Dance. It makes it fit more in my vision of "wallbreaker/weak armour abuse physical, sweeping special." I also swapped Assisst with Foresight.
  13. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    387
    I forgot to justify Power Gem in my Level Up description. I agree it's a bit of a stretch but it does provide some good flavour in my opinion. Not sure how necessary having Ancientpower is when it learns Silver Wind too, but I'll consider it.

    Guard Swap, like I said, is just a fun gimmick I came up with. Yes it's more logical to include it with Power Swap, though keep in mind that it's an Egg move, so it's hardly an integral part of its movepool.

    I forgot that Overheat was a TM, haha. That's been fixed.


    Anyway, out of interest, when is the deadline? I'm pretty busy with uni stuff at the moment - it would be useful to know so that I can manage my time wisely so I have time to complete my descriptions.
  14. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,304
    At the moment, you should really be working to the point that you can call your submission a Final Submission at a minute's notice; I can't specify any particular time beyond "whenever it's convenient". At the moment, a few people seem to have relatively complete movepools, and others don't. Once a majority of people seem happy with what they have, I'll post a 24 hour warning.

    That said, I'll probably post said 24 hour warning this evening, as I do think we are now at that stage where we can think about closing up shop (and I do have a pool of almost 20 movepools to choose from).

    A few comments:

    @Mdevil: You still have 39 VGMs.

    @cape: ...gah. You know how much I despise daft events or bizarre mechanics and it's a very wonky solution to a complicated problem, which is annoying as there isn't strictly speaking anything wrong with it. I'll allow it until it's proven that such a thing isn't possible within the bounds of the game (it should well be, but just in case), though this isn't a guarantee of slating by any stretch.
  15. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    Ugh, I'll get right on that.

    Edit: Are you sure you're not counting Frustration/ Return or Defend Order/Cosmic power as two because I keep coming up with 38. Do i have an unmarked VGM? You also may have counted Light Screen twice as it repeats but isn't very clearly marked.
  16. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,304
    I rechecked the spreadsheet, turned out I had yours marked as having Superpower, when you actually didn't have it. Apologies. You are correct, you do now have 38 VGMs, so your submission is legal.
  17. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    524
    I made some changes to my submission just now. In the level-up moves, I removed Extrasensory and added Stored Power. In the TM list, I removed Reflect, Taunt, Overheat and Attract, and added Safeguard. I also added more moves into the Egg moves list, but the VGMs there remain the same.

    Hope the changes gets reflected in the spreadsheet bmb. Thanks! Will be adding descriptions later if I have more time, hopefully before this thread gets locked.

    Also, can Frustration and Return be counted as one VGM?
  18. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,304
    Yes, ergo you currently have 29 VGMs.
  19. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,884
    One source of frustration for me this time around has been a general lack of opinions from other people as to what they think about Quiver Dance (typically referring to when I ask about it on IRC). I've gotten nothing from the TL, nothing from people I'd particularly trust to advise me on decisions like this, and nothing from just people in general. I'm not holding that against any of you, but I'm just saying. I'm also getting the sense that my attempts to generate some more enlightening discussion on the matter have failed. So I think I'll just go one way or the other on Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance. Right now I'm leaning toward... not putting them on due to concerns about luck-based situations, as well as the historical unpopularity of ability illegalities.

    I'll just leave this here for historical purposes:
  20. Yarnus of Bethany

    Yarnus of Bethany

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,065
    I just want to give my support for Capefeather's proposal
  21. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    2,304
    24 hour warning

    I think it's about time to wrap this up. Simply post "Final Submission" somewhere in the post containing your movepool and make sure that the spreadsheet is consistent with your movepool.

    Good luck to all.
  22. RavensNation

    RavensNation

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    106
    Added Wish to level-up moves. Removed Whirlwind from Move Tutor moves.

    I felt like the riskiness of my movepool outweighed the reward, so I powered it up a little more by letting Aurumoth learn Wish to try to recover some health for itself. Also provides solid Wish support for its party members with that 110 base HP. I left Healing Wish on the list because it provides additional support by fully restoring a party member rather than healing only by 50% of Aurumoth's HP.

    I decided to remove Whirlwind mostly because Aurumoth has better things to do than try phazing opponents. The downside to it is that now it has no way of stopping set-up sweepers by imitating a counter and phazing, though Illusion may still do the job of forcing the opponent out.
  23. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,884
    I could have sworn I posted about adding Agility... but yeah it's in my movepool.
  24. Verminator

    Verminator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    101
    Job's a good 'un. I axed Light Screen in favour of Will-O-Wisp and added a bunch of TM and Tutor moves as non-VGMs to pad out the movepool. Now it's good to go.

    bmb, I noticed one error on the spreadsheet. It said that I'm not using Pursuit, but I am. Otherwise it's fine, with the exception of the aforementioned change I just made.
  25. Mdevil

    Mdevil

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    I'm pretty sure I accidently counted repeated moves in my total moves. Technically, right now, I'm at 38/72. Any suggestion for 3 flavor moves?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)