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CAP 15 CAP 4 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by bugmaniacbob, Sep 24, 2012.

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  1. Ragnarokalex

    Ragnarokalex

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    I think I would really have to throw my support behind either Weak Armor or Illusion, although Rattled is interesting too.

    Weak Armor is probably the best option in my opinion. It allows you to switch into a fighting move, or earthquake or something, then proceed to use the boost to attempt to sweep the foe. I think its the best risky option here because it allows you to come in on moves that don't have a huge likelihood of KOing you after rocks+assorted other hazards, but still leaves you extremely vulnerable to priority and stall that can manage to get a status effect off on you. Also taking what is probably going to be a decent sized physical hit with rocks, will leave this CAP probably to weak for another similar switch in attempt, so you only have one shot at it. I believe this risk-reward ratio is what we're looking for with a project such as this, so i think this ability should at the very least be strongly considered. Rattled pretty serves the same purpose as this, however only being able to come in on moves that are going to hit super effectively will make switching in far too dangerous, which is too much risk considering how fragile the sweeper will be even after it gets going.

    Illusion just sounds like a lot of fun, and with proper bluffing it could be a very high risk/reward ability. It would fit the bill for this CAP, but i think Weak Armor does a better job representing true risk to reward management.

    Anyway, those are the thoughts of a noob, consider them as you will.
  2. HAiGAizZ

    HAiGAizZ

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    Would love to support Illusion, the only problem is it would lead to some Zoroark+CAP4 on the same team shenanigans, which isn't really a path I would like to go down. Now when you see a Pokemon you have three possibilities, either it's CAP4, it's Zoroark, or it's actually the real deal. Seems broken to me...
  3. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    I think that Weak Armor would be the best Primary Ability for CAP4. Definitely rewarding, but a vulnerability to non-fighting priority moves keeps the reward from overshadowing the risk.

    Unburden should also be considered. With this ability, you really only have one shot to sweep. Definite risk/reward correlation there.
  4. Tira_ShadowHeart

    Tira_ShadowHeart

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    First, I want to say that I really like the idea of Illusion as a risky ability and I like how it fits the concept. However, I have a question:

    What Pokémon in OU could CAP4 masquerade as with Illusion? Part of the reason this ability is so good on Zoroark is that it shares a moveset with many Ghosts, but resists what they’re weak to. Another part is that it’s neutral to SR. By making CAP4 weak to SR, we could have just shot ourselves in the foot as far as Illusion goes.

    (Throughout this post, I assume that SR is up. If we go with Illusion, that boosts Rapid Spin support from advisable to absolutely necessary.)

    In order to use Illusion to its fullest potential, I thought we’d want to use CAP4’s resists (Fighting x2, Psychic, Ground, & Grass) as the Illusion’s greatest weaknesses – double weaknesses, to tempt the opponent away from simply spamming Rock moves. We’d also want CAP4 to share a moveset with whatever it masquerades as, but that can be engineered later.

    Looking through OU, I see Cloyster, Gyarados, Abomasnow, Tornadus & -T, Ninetales, Thundurus-T, Salamence, and Dragonite that share the same magnitude of SR weakness as CAP4. Including BL adds Kyurem and Staraptor. None of these Pokémon share STABs with CAP4. Ninetales is automatically not an option because when it comes out and no Drought goes up, there goes your bluff. (It could be made to work if you’ve already won the weather war, but by that point, why not sweep?) As for the Dragons, didn’t we decide against Bug/Dragon because of the ability to spam Dragon moves? Dragon moves are great on anything that gets them, regardless of STAB. To make the Illusion work, we’d have to give CAP4 Dragon moves – or just drop those three completely from the options.

    If we bring in a Pokémon from outside of OU and BL, that might work. Ideally, it’d be weak to Rock but doubly weak to Fighting, so it can tempt Fighting moves more than Rock, and can hopefully survive a Rock move after SR. It’d have to be part Ice. It’d have to be Weavile. Weavile can’t survive any moves past SR.

    For the Psychic resistance, the Pokémon would ideally be Poison/ Fighting: Toxicroak. Toxicroak isn’t especially bulky, and isn’t weak to SR.

    For the Ground resistance, the Pokémon would ideally be Fire/ Rock: Magcargo. Magcargo is also doubly weak to Water and Ground, and wouldn’t stand a chance in a weather war. The possible (likely) speed difference would give it away, too.

    For the Grass resistance, the Pokémon would ideally be some combination of Ground, Water, or Rock. While we have some viable Pokémon for this, none of these types are weak to SR.

    I just wanted to point out that if we pick this ability, we have to work at not only making CAP4 function without it but with it and with certain Pokémon already in mind to masquerade as. I haven’t found any Pokémon with ideal type combinations to take full advantage of this masquerade yet, and I’m afraid going with this ability would just boost the general use of Stone Miss. That reintroduces the luck-risk we’re trying to avoid, and almost nullifies the benefits of Illusion. While I’d love to play mindgames with Illusion, and it sounds great, I don’t know how we could make this quite work without a dedicated Rapid Spinner. Then whatever you switch to after the Rapid Spin, the opponent can almost safely assume is CAP4 anyway. Which means more mindgames, which is good. So if we pick Illusion, we have already dedicated a spot on CAP4's team to a Rapid Spinner; likewise, if a Rapid Spinner doesn't show up in the team preview, it's likely CAP4 isn't running Illusion.

    (If I'm missing something incredibly obvious, please please PM me about it, because I really would like to use Illusion and I don't want to make any invalid points.)
  5. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    I'm actually loving the potential abilities with this CAP. A lot of them would satisfyingly fulfill the concept of risk/reward. Out of them, my favorites are probably No Guard, Zen Mode, Illusion, Rattled, and Weak Armor.

    No Guard brilliantly removes the factor of the RNG distracting from "true risk" and gives us access to the moves we'd really appreciate. The fact that things like Fire Blast, Stone Edge, and Hurricane actually threaten CAP4 only makes it more appealing in that the opponent can create risk for the user as well.

    Zen Mode allows for much more customization in this CAP, which would in turn make CAP4 way more fun to use during the playtesting period. Darmanitan got an absolutely horrid stat-spread in trying to use Zen Mode, so I feel like the potent of it could be learned in addition to exploring risk. To those who hold making the project longer as a downside to the idea, clearly they do not understand that CAP is to explore new concepts in a balanced form, not to dish out a brand new Pokemon by the end of the month. If we'd need more time for the CAP, so be it, I'm for whatever will make this CAP better.

    Illusion is also relatively unexplored through no fault of Illusion itself nor Zoroark, but simply the metagame they were tossed into. Team preview ruined what could have been one of the most influential new abilities to possibly exist, simply because you'll know for sure that it's Zoroark's ability. Should Illusion become a part of CAP4, we not only get to see the ability's increase dramatically, but we are presented with the chance to test the mindgame aspect of risk/reward. An opponent believing they're about to trash a Heatran with Close Combat will find themselves doing next to nothing while you get a boost that could potentially stop you from taking a followed-up Fire Blast. Sounds excellent to me.

    Rattled, more so than even the above two abilities, is an unexplored risky ability as well, literally stuck on only things found in LC and NU. Since our CAP is actually weak to the things Rattled benefits against, the opponent has to choose between killing CAP4 now with a U-turn or hold off making CAP4 that much harder to kill should it survive the hit. Since OU doesn't ever really see Dark, Bug, and Ghost-type moves that exceed 100 Base Power, it wouldn't be unrealistic to see use with Rattled on our typing.

    Lastly, Weak Armor sounds fun. It's in a similar boat to Rattled I suppose, the main difference being that we are trading off Defense and likelihood of choosing when we activate the ability in exchange for overall more frequency of becoming faster, due to how the opponent will actually have to think heavily before just hitting the Close Combat/Superpower button. If anything, the less Defense after a speed boost only makes it more appealing to a concept about risk, which would definitely be present when something with Pursuit or Sucker Punch switches in.
  6. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    So in hindsight it was probably a bad idea to post a discussion thread and then disappear for a few days.

    Oh well.

    So, I've been seeing a rather alarming number of abilities being proposed, although happily the existing abilities are being discussed quite a bit more towards the end. I think we have a very reasonable pool to choose from now - at any rate, there are enough abilities that I like that I can justify saying so. Once again, I feel as though some people are not quite grasping the point of an ability that provides Risk, though this is hardly the community's fault - I believe that all abilities can, in some situations, provide Risk to their users, if only because using them prevents the use of another, equally useful ability. This can be seen in Doug's examples at the beginning of this thread - it can also be seen in Pokemon like Relicanth, who have a choice between Swift Swim and Rock Head - each negating one of Relicanth's core weaknesses (either its Speed or its inability to hit hard). Perhaps Yanmega would be another good example. However, in both of these cases we see very basic, powerful abilities, wherein, although granting a certain Risk in that the use of one, one must necessarily forgo the use of the other, I believe that there are abilities that can hold this general rule while at the same time providing disadvantages that are not necessarily linked to loss of advantages provided by the alternative.

    Now then, as for what I like (as well as what I could like, but am not sure about) so far:

    I would first like to reaffirm my support for No Guard. I absolutely love this ability and the way it plays for and against the typing - with a Pokemon weak to Stone Edge, Fire Blast, and Hurricane, alongside a vulnerability to such moves as Thunder and Hydro Pump, there is a real Risk involved with using this ability, or at least to any battler who wishes to play the probability game. That's not the only reason why I like this ability - one thing it gives, which is so very important to nearly offensive Pokemon, but to a sweeper especially, is reliability - there is no need to trust to the will of the RNG or any other such variable outside one's control. This is a quite significant Reward in itself, but is also notable in that the gross Reward this ability brings is entirely under our jurisdiction, by the movepool stage. The final thing that I really like about it is that it, to a very significant degree, removes luck-based Risk from CAP4, both in terms of the inaccuracy of moves super effective against it and in any mildly inaccurate moves it chooses to use, which I find intriguing from an experimental perspective.

    Illusion is another one I wanted to talk about - and as I have often been a fan of psychological warfare and the concept of player stress in CAP, I like how some of the principles involved can be applied to Risk. Unlike Zoroark, CAP4 is pretty much covered in weaknesses and resistances, so pulling off a successful bluff would be difficult - and made even more so by the fact that Stealth Rock, likely as not, would reveal the secret as soon as CAP4 switches in. I'm less fond of it because of its inherent riskiness, as really the only Risk involved is on the choices the player and opponent make - so it is not entirely within the user's control - and more because of the way it interacts with the typing, such that it enhances the ordinary Risk/Reward element of Bug/Psychic. I'm fascinated by this ability and its potential applications, though at the same time I am a bit wary.

    Moxie is the only other ability on the list that I feel has some sort of connection to the concept - not by much, though. The Risk from this ability, I feel, comes from the timing - if you KO a Pokemon at the wrong time, and a revenge killer forces you out, you aren't getting your adequate Reward. Which is an enormous shame. The Reward, as with No Guard, is largely found in increased reliability for offensive sets. I can't say that I find the Risk with this ability to be all that great, though, and I don't like the way that it is pretty much solely good for physical sets, as this means that purely special sets will take the other ability by default, rather than there being any Risk attached, or else will simply be less viable.

    Others? Sheer Force is probably my next most favoured, but really, it has very little Risk attached to its use, to be honest, as most side-effects, aside from being generally so little game-changing that no reliance on their activation is planned beforehand anyway, happen to pertain to the probability game that I want to avoid. However, it has merit in that it to an extent reduces passive damage by removing LO recoil, and possibly the removal of effects also tends to aid the concept in the same way that it does for No Guard. Simple used to be something I favoured for the combination it makes with Stored Power and a variety of set-up moves, but I am starting to believe it is not really feasible, aside from there not being any real danger in the current metagame of any stat-down tactics being even remotely common, so any potential Risk is very greatly lessened, and as such, really isn't that good for our purposes.

    There are also some that seem to be extremely popular, though I'm not really sure why. Here are some that I do see the appeal of, though. Weak Armour is the only one of the "Get hit by <X> Move and Get a Boost" abilities that I can really see working. Type-specific abilities such as Lightningrod, Flash Fire, Sap Sipper, or whatever else was suggested, are quite significantly limited by whether or not the opponent happens to have a Pokemon with that move, and whether or not they are likely to use it - this is less the case for some abilities than others, but it makes me favour them less, as they are pretty limited. Rattled is the least of these, as it incorporates three different types, but even so, intentionally walking into super effective attacks is a pretty stupid Risk - and unlikely to pay off unless this thing has both godly defensive stats and high Speed - at which point it probably wouldn't care about Rattled. On the other hand, Weak Armour has a suitably large attack range (everybody runs physical attacks) and it really isn't hard to get the boost. The drop is what makes me wary - I am worried that it may be too much of a Risk. I imagine that this boost would be best suited for sweepers, who take a colossal Risk trying to set up with Defence slashed. Which means the realm of this ability falls to general attackers, and this seems to go against the "can't sweep without boosting moves" note we agreed in Concept Assessment. I also worry that it may be shunted aside if we choose a less Risky ability alongside it, or that we may be unwilling to give it another competitive ability if it is chosen. It's still an interesting option, and that archetype of abilities is rather neglected.

    Swarm is simple and sweet, but it is hard to get any kind of strategy going involving the ability as a whole, without becoming easy prey for priority and passive damage of all sorts. Unburden is really in the same boat, but is one-time use and as such can't really be described as an alternative to another ability on the same set, so that element of Risk is removed. This is a valid criticism of Swarm as well.

    So... talk, I guess. And please do feel free to lobby me if you think I'm missing something, wrong, or just plain insane. That's what I'm here for, after all.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention. Wonder Guard / Magic Bounce / other stupid abilities are off-limits. I was going to put Zen Mode here too because it's dumb and I'm pretty sure it's programmed to be Darmanitan-exclusive, but then I realised that that hasn't stopped us in the past. So I'd like more opinions on that, please.
  7. verbatim

    verbatim Red like Roses
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    Zen mode is specifically coded for Darmanitian and based on the way PS is laid out, if we want to use a form changing ability, a custom ability would be better insofar as it pertains to how we code it.
  8. This is CAP, so that doesn't matter. I've specifically asked some of the more senior members before about abilities and moves, like Forecast, Relic Song, and so on, that are normally coded only to work for a specific Pokemon, and the response has generally been that, if there were sufficient reason to grant such a feature to a CAP, it could indeed be done without violating any general guidelines. That said, I don't think that Zen Mode is at all a good fit for this CAP, and it would unnecessarily lengthen the CAP process, so don't see a reason to worry about it. I'm just saying that we could if we wanted to, but we shouldn't anyway.
  9. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    I honestly think we should decide to use Weak Armor because it is the most risky/rewarding ability. I get where you guys are coming from with No Guard being risky, but I don't see it being high riskand high reward. Considering that most physical pokemon that run a fighting type move also run a rock type move, a switch in could either be highly beneficial or highly dangerous.

    little side note, I've confirmed with V4 and Marty that weak armor is activated by physical moves, not whether it's contact/non-contact
  10. BreloomMaster99

    BreloomMaster99

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    Wow, just got ninja'd.

    After reading many other posts, that Weak Armor is the ability we are looking for. It has a lot of risk, since Bug/Psychic is weak to SR, will have its defense lowered - but the payoff is great. Having one of its possible lower stats raised and now outspeeding possible check/counters, this CAP can start a possible sweep. A 4x fighting resist is also really appealing considering the number of fighting moves used by every team (especially for coverage). My main worry is that unless this CAP has high enough attack and defense, this ability will be a real letdown, and just make an already risky typing more prone to priority and revenge killing.
  11. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    OK, after a bit of discussion I'd just like to make the point that Zen Mode is off-limits as it is a unique ability, hard-coded to Darmanitan, and as such constitutes screwing about with the game's core mechanics to an unacceptable extent. EDIT: Plus what verbatim said about ease of coding for PS!.

    You can suggest a custom ability with Zen Mode characteristics if you want. Just don't expect me to slate it without some VERY good arguments for it.
  12. psykokitty

    psykokitty

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    I think Zen Mode is a viable, risky option for CAP4, insofar as it activates a second form once the pokemon loses a certain amount of HP. Like Asylum_Rhapsody said, this does run the risk of lengthening the CAP process as we'd have to confirm the details on the second form (stats, how much HP must be lost before it activates, etc), however I feel that if we took the time to do this it would be worth it. If CAP4 runs more efficiently when it has a lowered HP, it runs the risk of being revenge killed; I believe this kind of risk would fit the concept beautifully.

    I'd like to hear BMB's thoughts on status-related abilities like Guts/Toxic Boost/Flare Boost, as well as Trace. Also, BMB, could you be more specific on what "other stupid abilities" are off-limits? Hopefully not any of the ones I listed off.

    EDIT: Ninja'd by BMB. Scratch what I said about Zen Mode and change that to a custom, Zen Mode-esque ability
  13. CuteandScary

    CuteandScary

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    What if we had Lightningrod and Sap Sipper. Not inherently risky but having to use one of these abilities makes your opponent know what kind of set you're running by showing what they gain from switching in. My two cents.
  14. Ewil

    Ewil

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    qft.

    No Guard, as Faranfell said, grants more advatanges then disadvantages, so is more an a little risk, high reward at my eyes.

    Weak Armor on the other hand is more suitable with ours idea of Hrisk/Hreward, but that's true that everyone is running at least one physical move and it's pretty obvius when our Bug/Psychic comes in on a predicted Drain Punch from Conckeldurr or a Close Combat from Lucario, but the most part of those offensive mons, pack a Priority or a coverage move with the Fight attack, so if our pokemon get the boost, the opponent's pokemon can always hit him with a priority attack reducing his Health and his defense (but boost already his speed, but i think we want a pokemon that needs only a +2 speed boost to be nearly instoppable, so the second boost/drop is more a weakness then a power up). Never counting that your opponent can bring a dedicated check after the death of the physical mon that gave him the +2spd-1def, so our mon can be forced to switch loosing the boost(s) and his hard work to gaining them.
  15. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    Weak Amor would be good until you realize that in exchange for a rather mild boost and some loss in HP, CaP4 can be revenge killed by almost every priority move except Mach Punch. Scizor, Mamoswine, Metagross, Lucario, Dragonite, Donphan, Toxicroak, and others all gain an easier time of shutting down CaP4, and all it gains is a speed boost. While the +speed is nice, I can't really see it being worth the reward.

    Swarm is also a really poor choice of ability. Since Generation Three, almost nothing has been able to use low health strategies effectively due to the abundance of priority. I can't really see it becoming any better given our typing, and could just see it becoming a rather marginal aspect of the Pokemon. Of course, maybe having the risk come from the Pokemon as a whole and not just the ability is a good thing.

    No Guard is my favorite of the abilities currently up for discussion. It shows the other side of the risk coin in risk management, and I find it as a very clever way to explore risk from an unconventional angle. Beyond that, the arguments have been done to death for the most part.
  16. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

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    I can't understand all the support for No Guard, I understand the high risk from making Hurricane, Stone Edge, Fire Blast etc never-miss, but just what moves are people thinking CAP4 will be able to abuse with No Guard?

    In terms of STAB moves, Megahorn is the only "low accuracy" move that will benefit from No Guard, as Psychic attacks are 90% accuracy at their lowest. Never-miss Megahorns would be nice, but the same could be achieved through giving it Hone Claws/Coil if people are that worried about it. I've had enough UU sweeps with Choice Scarf Moxiecross to know that the 85% accuracy of Megahorn is pretty reliable, if that's the main reward of No Guard, then it's a bit of a crap reward.

    As for coverage moves, accurate Focus Blasts would be nice, but there's nothing to stop us giving CAP4 physical Fighting moves (which would be better against the blobs anyway) or Aura Sphere. Then there's the possibility that we might boost the "high reward" by giving it Dynamicpunch/Inferno/Zap Cannon. Those are the only things that would really make No Guard a "High Reward" choice. Do we seriously want to go down that road?
  17. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    Isn't Reckless one of the more ideal high risk/high reward abilities? I realize Bug and Psychic don't really offer much to use it with, but we could make one Stab move to work off of and throw some Reckless based coverage (mind you, no bloody way it should get Flare Blitz) could we not?

    There's also Color Change which deserves a mention, but i doubt that's the direct we want to go.

    Others that i like are Weak Armour and Unburden.
  18. Pokethan

    Pokethan

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    I would like to bring back out an ability that seems to have lost discussion and I don't even know if people discussed it at all and that would be Flare Boost.

    Flare Boost takes a status that most people can spam recklessly outside of Flash Fire and makes it into a great asset while at the same time being risky besides now you take damage every turn for that boost in power.

    Trace is definitely another ability I would like to see because you can take an awesome ability and make it useful to yourself and it still requires risk because of prediction.

    Analytic is an ability that is another risk and reward type deal. If you go last you gain more power but since Pokemon is basically run by speed this is a huge risk in itself to go slower.

    Weak Armor is an ability you don't see often played and it is certainly an interesting ability that once again goes with our High Risk High Reward idea. I do think its an awesome ability we can use especially since the pokemon that carry it currently are unable to use properly or already have better abilities to use.
  19. srk1214

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    I remain utterly unconvinced of the benefit to concept of No Guard, as quite frankly there has not been a single logical, substantive argument made arguing how it actually enhances risk, rather than removes luck. Many of the users advocating No Guard are experienced CAPers and I expect more from y'all. If it's going to be the ability, convince me why it should. Please. I don't want to be working on a project of which I adamantly oppose a central aspect.

    I have read all arguments fully and remain of the opinion to endorse Unburden, Flare/Toxic Boost, and potentially Weak Armor.

    I quite honestly do not understand the reasoning behind any other ability.
  20. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    An important portion of high risk strategies is that it cannot be manipulable, or at least hard to manipulate. It should be able to provide a significant boost if used correctly, but should greatly harm the user if misused or if the opponent out-predicts the user. There should not be a way to ensure a positive effect if this ability is chosen.

    For those reasons, I want Weak Armor to be the ability for CAP4. Weak Armor is the definition of risky yet nonrestrictive. This Pokemon can be either a Physical or Special attacker if Weak Armor is chosen, as the Defense drop is highly immaterial (are we going to give this thing the Defense to take two hits, one at -1?), while one Speed boost could be massive. On the flip side, this Pokemon will have to switch into a Physical attack in order to activate the boost, and with the power of Physical attacks in OU that's no easy task.

    Weak Armor is a high-risk, high reward strategy that can pay dividends, as one Speed boost can be a game decider. Anyone who's played RU with Kabutops knows this.

    Hustle gets an honorable mention for being a risk/reward based ability, and there's no shame in going the luck route with this Pokemon.

    Illusion, though a bit Farfetch'd, is definitely a cool option as it forces a mindgame that almost always leaves a Pokemon on one side of the field dead.

    One option that I don't like is No Guard. Inaccurate moves are pretty common, but they are by no means ubiquitous. This ability will also encourage using powerful, inaccurate attacks on this Pokemon, which gives CAP4 a massive advantage. Meanwhile, the opponent will not receive nearly as much aid from this ability, as if No Guard is chosen, then CAP4 will be designed to abuse it. Plenty of reward, not much risk.

    Zen Mode is not a good choice for this Pokemon either. It's not difficult to switch into an attack that will do between 50 and 99% damage, especially with this typing. That makes Zen Mode not much of a high-risk strategy in that it is not difficult to activate Zen Mode. Add in a Stealth Rock weakness and a high probability that CAP4 will not resist Spikes and it might be possible to activate Zen Mode right off the bat. Not a high-risk strategy if you ask me.
  21. bugmaniacbob

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    I believe I was asked for my opinion on some abilities. On Trace, I happen to agree with, I think, a number of people in this thread, who said that it has very little risk attached - in that the effect of the ability would almost always be positive - with very little reward, as most abilities in OU wouldn't really be particularly helpful for a general CAP4. As for Flare Boost / Toxic Boost / Guts / and all the rest, I dislike them as well. I said I didn't want this CAP to be the sort of die-quickly glass cannon that a lot of people were expecting from this concept, and as such, I feel it is a bad idea to compound weakness to every passive damage form ever with continuously losing HP every turn, no matter how bulky this Pokemon may be. So, I do not favour either of them.

    Now, what I want to see more discussion on (and I mean discussion, not just blindly spouting its praises or decrying it as an abomination) is Weak Armour. Now, I mentioned earlier that I was unsure on Weak Armour as an ability, but that it was the best of the Get Hit + Get Boost abilities. After discussion on IRC, a number of other points were made. The first is that Weak Armour's Reward is not significant enough to offset the Risk - that the Speed boost does not compensate adequately for the increased ease of being one-shotted by a revenge killer. I am personally not certain how far the benefits of a single speed boost could go - and that is the point, I do not really know what to make of this ability. It has no viable users in OU, and its strength is thus hard to gauge, so it is equally hard to work out what ability it should be paired with. This leads on to another point, which is that, because of the fact that Weak Armour will very likely need a stat spread designed with it in mind, any other ability is likely to be either useless in comparison or much better, as far as I can see - which is not really what I wanted to go for in this stage.

    So yeah, I want to see more discussion on this, please.
  22. Solstice

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    I personally like the idea of Weak Armour. But I'll get to why later, right now I want to touch on BMB's worry about the validity of a secondary ability. I agree that the stats will have to be perfectly tailored to this idea, with a fair defense and very precise speed. Without these two the whole idea is moot. However that does not mean that a secondary ability will be better or useless, if we pick the right one it just has to fit a separate niche within the same stat block. Ones that come to mind right now are Analytic, which functions without the need of speed, in fact speed is NOT what we want at all. So Weak Armour is for a faster, frailer set, while Analytic functions slowly with some bulk. As well Illusion adds a second ability that is difficult to work with, but if it pulled off it works great, and would not be much more powerful than Weak Armour. That being said I feel abilities like No Guard, Simple, or Lightningrod are too powerful in conjunction with Weak Armour to make it valid. Sorry if this was a massive poll jump.

    Reasons why I like Weak Armour are as such, it is a great risk with great reward. Say we tailor it to perfectly get the boost to outspeed Tyranitar on an Earthquake, or catch Conkelldur at the right moment. It would be a huge risk to stay in, especially with SR throwing damage in our face, but we could get a spectacularly timed kill, but we probably would have difficulty staying in afterwards, which if SR is up makes it a huge balancing act with HP conservation. Overall a solid option.
  23. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    551
    i'm with srk in regards to no guard for a few reasons.

    The risk is much greater on cap4's side than on the opponents. Bug and psychic are generally high accuracy moves and stone edge and fire blast, common attacks aimed at out typing, are going to be at 100%.

    I also don't think that we learn anything from this ability. We learn that 100% accuracy moves will always hit. Thats it. Probability (not luck) is part of the game as well as prediction and strategy and thats something every player should take into account and not complain about. It goes along with weighing options, determining the risk and reward of every move based on potential outcomes.

    And lastly to go along with what srk said, there hasnt been an argument to show what no guard would add to the concept. I think this is mostly because it cant add anything, it only eliminates moves missing. But no guard really doesnt enhance the project at all like people would think. You would really need no guard on everything on the field to see how having moves hit every time would truly affect the outcome of matches. Also, in the end, hax is just going to be increased with these moves hitting all the time. More hit attacks means higher probability of crits, and most of these low accuracy moves have secondary effects, so more burns, flinches, stat drops etc. This ability really has too little of an effect to create a game based purely on strategy, which is what i think the supporters of no guard are trying to achieve (or at least come close to). But thats not what pokemon is anyways so there's no reason to change that.

    And in regards to bmb's post on weak armor, if a specified stat spread isnt desired than i dont think weak armor is going to work unfortunately. With all of the specificities of the ability i think that the stat spread would have to be just as specific in order for it to be successful. We wouldnt be able to make sure what hits we could take before and after defense drops and what we would be able to outspeed after a speed boost, unless we were able to make specific stats for this ability.
  24. Meganium Sulfate

    Meganium Sulfate

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2012
    Messages:
    84
    Guys, I have another insane idea, but just consider it:


    Magnet Pull


    There could not be an ability riskier than this. Magnet Pull is, by all indications, a terrible matchup with the typing of CAP4. But that's what makes it so risky. Having another high-power 'mon with Magnet Pull will provide more versatility in dealing with Steel-types and, given our decision to give CAP4 a good movepool to beat a variety of checks, it might not be that bad at targeting Steel-types. Magnet Pull will thus give it a solid use that, when referenced against its inability to effectively use STAB moves against the prime targets of the ability, produces a considerable amount of risk.
  25. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,779
    I feel like I need to adress some of these issues. The effect of weak armor is sometimes desirable, and sometimes it is not (e.g if the opponent has the appropriate priority abuser). I think the instance where the positive and negative effects cancel each other out is relatively rare - after all, speed boosts are useless against priority mons, and defense drops are relatively inconsequential if you're now faster than the opponent (2 hits being better than one). Recognising when taking a hit is useful and when it isn't would be an important part of playing CAP4 "correctly." Don't forget that this ability can easily be activated without intention as well, meaning sometimes you'll have to take care to avoid activating the ability. Altogether, I think this should lead to thoughtful play and risk taking, which is what we are after.

    So you might still be thinking that the "reward" of this ability is inadequate, but I hope you can see that the potential drawbacks are well contrasted to the benefits, meaning that this ability does accentuate the effect of risk well. It's not like this ability can become an irrelevance because you choose not to abuse it, as with, say, Pickpocket (to give an extreme example). The only concern really is that the ability might not be very good; indeed, with poor typing and abilities (as the other abilities would have to be of a similar standard), we would probably end up having to give CAP4 good stats. But that's not difficult, is it? Until we've picked a stat spread I see no reason to worry about CAP4 being viable.

    Also, about the specific stat spread thing, I somewhat disagree. There is no requirement for us to use the ability at its maximum effectiveness at all. The only thing the stat spread will do is determine how effective the ability is, meaning that if we choose the other abilities before the stat spread there could be some potential for imbalance in the effectiveness of the abilities. I don't mean to poll jump, but what do people think this ability requires in terms of Speed? To me, it's not remotely obvious. That boost could be taking it past anything - there's almost always something faster to outrun.
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