1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

CAP 16 CAP 5 - Concept Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Feb 4, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Psylink

    Psylink

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    256
    Maybe I should explain more. This pokemon will use something uncommon, but isn't horrible. It could be used to the benefit of it's more, let's say regular moves, maybe like Mean Look and Perish Song. The same applies to abilities. I'm not sure I cleared anything up, but I hope it did. :D
  2. chuddlewinks

    chuddlewinks

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    10
    Concept: Chancey (no, not the fat pink thing)

    Description: A CAPmon that relies primarily on percent-based chance within pokemon. "Hax" and other (non-evasion) related mechanics within the games are this CAPmon's bread and butter.

    Justification: It's always seemed that "hax" mechanics and strategies have been relegated to the lowest tiers of strategy in Pokemon the infamous "paraflinch" strategy, abused almost exclusively be togekiss in UU and Dunsparce in NU. These strategies, and essentially any mechanic involving chance has been treated as a nuisance, an unfortunate side-effect of the Pokemon mechanics. This CAPmon would give us a chance to analyze how much (and to what extent) chance plays in the metagame, and how prediction/risk assessment play into games when there are forces beyond either players' control.

    Questions to be Answered:
    • Can a pokemon rely on chance and be usable, or even be a threat in the OU metagame?
    • How is prediction affected by significant random chance?
    • Will a chance-based pokemon always be a niche build, or does it have actual application?
    • Is there enough of a range of chance-based abilities in the game to make an effective pokemon?

    Explanation: This concept is fairly straightforward, but raises some interesting questions. As said earlier, the most common chance-based moveesets are paraflinch ones, while everything else is seen as meer "hax," often stigmatized as negatively affecting the game. Pinch situations are often turned around by random chance, yet most people see it as a flaw in the game, or are incredibly frustrated by it.

    Is it possible to create a pokemon that uses (or abuses) these mechanics in a way that's informative and constructive to gameplay? Can we equip such a pokemon to be balanced? Are there other strategies than paraflinching? All are questions worth answering, and I feel this provides a great opportunity to make a great and unique CAPmon!
  3. Mr Holiday

    Mr Holiday

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    27
    Alright...I'm gonna try to be active throughout this entire process. Emphasis on try. Anyway, I was going to suggest a viable Hail-starter, but I think someone did that, so...

    Plan B. "B" here meaning "Likely to get me burned at the Smogon stake."

    Name: (Uber CAP!!)
    General Description: (A Pokemon which, despite it's average or below-average appearance, has somehow found it's way into the Uber metagame, or conversely a Pokemon which seems like it should be in Ubers which is stuck in OU. )

    Justification: (This concept would primarily allow us to explore the Uber metagame the same way CAP has explored OU, discovering exactly what makes an Uber pokemon. Furthermore, there are some Pokemon whose inclusion or exclusion from the metagame can be confusing. Simply put, this concept seeks to examine why some Pokemon which were never intended to be hugely dangerous (like Ditto) find themselves in Uber, and why Pokemon like Entei, which at first glance should belong in Ubers, typically only find use in OU or lower. )

    Questions To Be Answered:
    (~What combination of Base Stats, Movepool, Abilities, etc., make a seemingly OU Pokemon Uber, or vice verse?
    ~Can a seemingly average or below-average Pokemon compete in Ubers without a game changing ability or move (Ditto Impostor, Cloyster Shell Smash, etc), or is it required?
    ~How will this Pokemon change the Uber metagame? Will certain Pokemon become more or less common in the metagame in response to it? How will this in turn effect other metagames?
    ~What flaws can bring a seemingly Uber worthy Pokemon down to OU? Is it still at all viable?)

    Explanation: (Alright. Here's where I justify why you all shouldn't burn me at the stake. I know CAP has traditionally been an OU event, considering most competitive play takes place in OU. However, I feel the Uber metagame deserves at least one CAP so we can explore it the same way we have OU. How do we do that? By figuring out either A) How can a seemingly average or below average Pokemon be made Uber? or B) How can a seemingly Uber Pokemon be brought down to OU? In essence, we wouldn't be making a Garchomp or a Rayqyaza, but we wouldn't be making Slaking or Regigigas (I know I probably spelled that wrong.) either. We want to make something more like Cloyster, which was more or less NU material until it got Shell Smash, or Latios which typically needs Soul Dew to really compete in Uber, and finds itself in OU without it.)

    ------------------------

    Well. That's my idea. I welcome comments or complaints, though I really don't expect it to get any traction.
  4. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Currently experiencing a serious case of Dance Kittens
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,779
    Final Submission
    Name: Chill Pill

    General Description: A pokemon that can slow down the pace of the game for the user's control

    Justification: It's no doubt that BW2 is one of the fastest-paced metagames in existence. With "power creep" rising up as expected, the game speeds up when offense counters offense and bigger hitters fall to bigger hitters. One of the very reason stall can't function as well is because the game often moves too fast to get an advantage. However, offensive teams could also make use of a "reset" in terms of game pacing to further their own strategies.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How does negative momentum affect the flow of battle?
    • What causes a slowdown in tempo during gameplay?
    • How can a single pokemon work best to slow down an opponent's strategies?
    • Will defensive playstyles operate better without constant pressure maintained on them?
    • Can offensive playstyles make use of a slower tempo in gameplay?
    • How can a team best capitalize on a loss of momentum by the opponent?
    Explanation: At first glance, this seems like stall's dream pokemon. However, instead of just focusing on buffing up stall and defensive play, I thought it would be possible to take a stab at the metagame in general. Fast-paced offensive play is extremely common in the current metagame, and involves sharp, quick, decisive games. I'd like to see how things could develop if matches were given just a bit more time to play out; a bit more time to work with. I'd like to see what happens when things take a step back. The game could possibly get more interesting if battles could slow down and focus on a turn to turn basis rather than throwing the single most powerful moves at the opposing side.

    There are numerous ways to turn your opponent's momentum against them. Ditto is a great example of this: it can steal an opponent's boosts and revenge kill an opponent. CB mamoswine also can work against a dragonite for example, and a scarfed keldeo versus a Kyurem-B. However, this results in what I call a net increase in offensive momentum, beating offense with offense. There are also ways to decrease the momentum of a match. Switching Gastrodon into a rotom on volt switch is a great example. Nobody has attacked, and nobody has a clear advantage, but the momentum of the match has been killed to zero. Switching a Landorus-T into terrakion is also one, albeit a bit of an advantage for the landorus due to the threat of an earthquake incoming. However, this is the capitalization on the loss of momentum. Now if this concept could be applied to a much larger scope of the metagame, think of what could happen. Hyper offense/rain hyper offense (keldeo+toxicroak and others)/sun hyper offense (venasaur+volcarona+victrebel, etc) could get stopped dead in their tracks by a poke that doesn't counter the opposition by revenge killing or putting powerful moves out there. Instead, CAP 5 would counter an opponent by decreasing the pace of the game back to an initial neutral standpoint, whereby CAP 5 would be designed to support its team when the momentum of the match is zero. While tomohawk was built around strictly its user's momentum and controlling, returning, and making use of its team's momentum, I propose CAP 5 be built around controlling and nullifying both teams' tempo.

    This would be quite a boon to stall, but offensively built teams could also make use of a reset in game momentum, through switching and boosting in other means. But that's left up to the later stages, and I think this concept can both increase defensive playstyles' usage and decrease the overall extremely offensive tone of the current metagame.
  5. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,782
    Ok, let me start off by giving some responses to the newest concepts.

    Midnight's Tricky Cloud: Well, the first thing that stands out here is that by specifying a specific ability and a stat bias, your concept is not even actually legal. However, going beyond that, even if you use a more generic terms, this concept seems way too specific. I don't know how, or more importantly why, you would play the role of partial weather counter and Trick user at once. Regardless, since the concept would need reworking regardless, let me suggest that you focus more on one part or the other. I would suggest focusing on Trick, since there are already a large number of weather concepts out there.

    jynx KB's Bring Something Back: Now, I'll be honest, I don't actually know if altering the banlist for a playtest is legal within the CAP rules, but I do like what this is getting at. Similar to Electrolyte's concept, this aims to study what exactly it means to be "broken." While I do think it could use a bit more elaboration on what we want to learn specifically by unbanning a Pokemon, I like the ideas behind this.

    Chou Toshio's Rain on Everyone's Parade: While I like the sentiment behind this (making something that teams have to worry about but not actually something that is an outright counter), I can't really see this as working out. Kingdra does its job so well simply because of the artificial ruling preventing rain from using it itself. To have that level of success against any weather without being good in it will be a struggle without something like what Kingdra has, much less all of them. Additionally there is the practical concern of how we would actually do it. Forms are not all that feasible, since most form abilities are now banned from use in CAP as of recent PRC threads. And, without forms, this becomes even more difficult to pull off. If we are to make a Pokemon that works at all like this it would probably have to be limited to one, maybe two weathers.

    HiipFire's Anti-type Advantage: Honestly, I am having a hard time understanding this concept, but if I am getting it right, it sounds to me like you want to make a Pokemon that uses moves such as Soak to turn opponents type advantages into downsides. This is a cool idea, but I'm not sure how well it would work as a concept. Right now your concept is very underdeveloped, and I would definitely need to see more explanation and questions to say much more. However, I think what you might be going for may actually have been done already (sort of) in gen V CAP 2, Necturna. While not focused on this at all, one (surprisingly good) Necturna set revolved around using Soak to change its normal counters into water types so that it could KO them with STAB Super Effective grass moves. If this is indeed the kind of thing you are looking for, I suggest you check it out on PS. Its actully pretty cool.

    Legend13's Problem?: The problem I see right off the bat here is that you reference how you want to be able to stop "strategies in OU which are nearly impossible to stop without suffering losses," but you never really say what you mean by this. Making a Pokemon that is simply an annoyer is something we could do, but we really need to have a focus on what exactly we are trying to have the annoyer accomplish. I think you need to go into more detail on what are the specific kinds of strategies we should be aiming to stop, and why an annoyer is the optimal way to do it.

    And, once again that covers all new concepts. So, now I'd like to comment on some that I know have made some significant changes since I first responded to them. I know a lot of people made edits, but this is mostly for people with major changes rather than simple additions or subtractions.

    First off is capefeather and his Faustian Bargain. So, the big change here was that instead of opening this up to multiple different paths, you now have it specified that we would take an existing pokemon with a notable trait, and working off of it. I definitely like this much more focused approach. That being said, I'm just not so sure how interesting of a process it would lead to. If I am getting it right, we'd essentially be making a slightly better overall version of an existing Pokemon, but with out a key trick. I think this would be fun to do, but I just don't really see that as leading to the most interesting of discussion.

    Next let me comment on Pwnemon's Hazard Control. Most of what you have here was already done when I first read it, but the questions, which I consider oh so important were updated, and definitly for the better. I don't have too much to add, but I do think that the new questions are great discussion points that could be used throughout the process.

    The next one I want to metionion is Bashfrog's concept, now known as Stat-Lowering Terror. I think it is a good idea that you decided to focus in on a specific class of underused moves, rather than them all at once. Stat lowering moves are an odd niche that doesn't really exist in the metagame. I think they have potential, but more as a form of phazing than anything else. It is an interesting idea though, and definitely an improvement.

    Finally, we have Birkal, and his revamped Dethrone Drizzle. Definitely a step in the right direction here. No longer do I fear that it is such an impossible task, even if it is still difficult. Additionally, the learning goals are now much more meaningful, which is a huge plus. That being said, it is now very much in the same place as some of the other top weather concepts, and I wonder whether we will get as much out of it as we would from some of its competition. Honestly, I am not sure, and it is something I will be thinking about when I make the slate.
  6. jynx KB

    jynx KB

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Messages:
    223
    Jas61292 As I said, wording and clarification aren't my strong suit. Anyone willing to help me hone out the details and get them properly represented in the post, by all means give whatever help you're willing. Thanks for the recognition though, I was thinking I'd be buried under the weather wars.

    Edit: Some fleshing out and more questions added. Let me know if it could use more.
  7. Little Battler

    Little Battler

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    252
    Oh god, more responses than I've ever had on smogon.

    Honestly? The easiest solution would be to implement a custom move that raises defense while reducing attack. However, there is a workaround for this. Contrary. The ability that doesn't seem to have any viable users. Contrary Shell Smash fits the concept quite well, doesn't it? It is, however, simply one of the many ways we can get around the problem, and happens to be the only one currently on the top of my head.

    But form changing is also awesome, although I am aware that it is pretty difficult to implement, which is why I didn't state it out loud.

    Oh god yes thank you Lol_cakes, you are too kind~
  8. Repairmanmanman

    Repairmanmanman

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Hi everyone! I've been on the sidelines watching CAP since Tomohawk so I've decided to register myself as a member and get my hands dirty and attempt in submitting ideas for the upcoming CAP. I'm all eyes and ears for opinions =)

    Name: Mr. Toolman

    General Description: We create a CAP based around an item(s) that are rarely utilized within the metagame.

    Justification: Ever since items were released during the GSC era, they redifined (and are continually redefining) how to go about formulating a victory. Some items are used more than others depending on what it was best designed to do. This Pokemon will utilize some (or one) of the rarely used items currently available to be a potential threat to the metagame.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • What defines an item's usefulness?
    • What defines a Pokemon's purpose based on the item it carries into battle?
    • What makes particular items (ie. Choice items, recovery items, berries, Gems) crucial to the current metagame?
    • Do typing, abilities, and EV's/IV's play an essential role in deciding what item best suits a Pokemon?
    • How do we choose a particularly rarely used item(s) (ie. King's rock, Scope Lens, Metronome, etc.) based on these factors?
    • What kind of impact will this Pokemon have based on the item(s) we choose to give it?

    Explanation: Just as abilities added another dimension onto battling when released during the RBE era, items play an important role in every match. Whether you need a Jellicent to carry leftovers to recover HP when walling hits or you need your shiny Scizor to power through your opponents team with Choice Band, items play a determining role in how a match will play out. The key here for this CAP however is to utilize some items in the metagame that are either rarely used or never looked upon based on their merit. As broad as this topic may be, it still serves as a template for a possibly threatening CAP within the metagame. Similar to Necturna, I want us to really study how items have defined previous and current metagames and possibly redefine or find new strategies surrounding what items are used. Though finding typings, stats, and abilities will be tricky for this CAP, if we can find rarely utilized items that we can work around, we'll already have the stepping stones for a unique CAP.
  9. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,524
    Name: Setting the Pace
    General Description: This Pokemon plays very differently against Pokemon slower and faster than it, exploring the concept of speed benchmarks.

    Justification: Speed is one of the most defining aspects of a metagame. How "fast" or "slow" a metagame is largely defines the style of play and the usefulness of various moves, yet the concept of speed benchmarks remains largely unexplored. Pokemon fundamentally relate to other Pokemon on the basis of "faster" and "slower", and this concept would teach us about that relationship. Speed is a complex subject, since maximizing a Pokemon's speed is not always the best way to maximize that Pokemon's effectiveness, yet there are certain Pokemon that make such a great impact in terms of their maximum speed that they must be accounted for. Many Pokemon need to decide how much speed is enough, and understanding speed benchmarks will help us to understand that decision-making process.
    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How do the important speed benchmarks in a metagame get set?
    • How do they react to new Pokemon that directly relate to those benchmarks?
    • Which moves and strategies most greatly impact slower Pokemon?
    • Which moves and strategies most greatly impact faster Pokemon?
    • How does the utility of a tactic change based on the speed of the Pokemon involved?

    Explanation: A speed benchmark is the number that separates a slow-slow Pokemon from a merely slow one, a slow Pokemon from a midrange one, etc. For instance, Breloom and Politoed set the benchmark that no Pokemon of middling speed wants to dip below for OU at 263. In DPP, Tyranitar set this number at 245. Many moves such as U-turn, Baton Pass, and Substitute play very differently depending on the relative speed of the Pokemon and its opponent. Scizor is especially representative of this issue, as a slow Pokemon that commonly uses Bullet Punch and U-turn, both of which are moves that greatly impact and are impacted by Scizor's effective speed. Essentially, this Pokemon would tell us about the effect of speed benchmarks by playing very differently against Pokemon faster or slower than it, setting such a benchmark. The actual speed number is unimportant to the concept.
  10. Canis Majoris

    Canis Majoris

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,392
    Okay, after reading quite a few of these concepts, I'd say my faves would have to be (Other than myself):

    Yilx's Big Dipper: I absolutely loved this concept since I read it. The idea of tearing something or someone apart without brute force is something I favour. Of course, this is what this concept is all about. Sun Tzu wrote this in The Art of War:
    "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

    BaseSpeed's Type Equalizer: This is an interesting way to look at things. Instead of trying to make the Top 10 Pokémon harder to use, this concept looks at making certain types viable, while making common types less viable. It's hard to pull it off, but if it is done well, it will be an amazing addition to the CAP list.

    Korski's Weather Warrior: Yes, weather concepts are horribly overdone. But this one caught my eye the first time I saw it. The idea of countering a weather and favouring another might be horribly imbalanced, but it seems interesting enough.

    Pwnemon's Hazard Control: Finally, a concept that tackles hazards. This will likely have my vote if it ends up in the poll. Forretress is good, but it's too easy to set up on nowadays. It also seems ridiculously easy to take down with Chandelure. Rapid Spin won't hit and Lure can possibly OHKO. I still have to agree with Birkal on this not being focused enough, though.

    reachzero's Setting the Pace: This is just like Hazard Control in that it's more unique than usual. If this ends up being done, I can't wait for its final product. Speed is, after all, what defines this entire metagame, and having a CAP that works differently against Pokémon with different speeds would certainly be interesting.

    Other concepts I like but are not really favourites:
    Repairmanmanman's Mr. Toolbox; Little Battler's Tactical Retreat; capefeather's Faustian Bargain.
  11. xam13124

    xam13124

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Name: Low Stat Physical Wall
    General Description: A pokemon that can indefinitely wall most common physical threats by means other than sheer stats.

    Justification:
    Most of the Pokemon commonly featured on stall teams are there because of very high stats in either Defense or Sp Defense as well as HP. Also, no Pokemon exists that is ability to wall all physical attacks in the way that Blissey is able to wall all special attacks, which would potentially help currently underpowered stall teams stay competitive with more offensive teams.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    What is the minimum amount of HP and Defense needed to wall common physical threats when combined with other useful attributes such as a useful ability or resistance to common attacks?
    Related to the above, how much of an impact do a Pokemon's ability and typing have on its bulk and survivability?
    What is the minimum amount of recovery needed by a wall in order to survive for an extended period of time?
    How much utility does a bulky pokemon need in order to make up for poor offensive stats?
    Would a Pokemon like this allow stall teams to compete evenly with other teams?

    Explanation:
    I cant think of a lot more to say besides what I already have. One thing that does come to mine is that the primary physical walls in this metagame are all blessed with high stats AND great defensive typings and still arent enough to make stall compete with other teams. I can also see this pokemon as being used as part of a defensive core for balanced teams.
  12. Midnight

    Midnight

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    20
    Thanks for the feedback, I see where I went wrong and went to do some thinking. Came up with a new idea.

    Name: That Opponent Seems Different

    General Description: A Pokemon that can control the opponents abilities, type and/or items across the team and shift these around to destroy momentum across a range of Pokemon both in and out of weather.

    Justification: The metagame is largely based around weather and the pokemon that shine in these conditions. Whether this be through their type, abilities, items or any combination of the three

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How do you go around helping destroy or hindering the above on a scale which is more than the one Trick?
    • What way can we design a CAP that creates a niche that is effective against, not just weather teams, but has uses outside without making it a central mon?
    • What Pokemon already have the ability to somehow screw around with the opponents types, abilities or items, yet cannot use these tools effectively due to their short comings?
    • Where does the biggest problem lie in the above three (type/abilities/items) when facing the top tier OU?
    • After screwing around with the above, how do you capitalise on the mind games to have a chance to take control of the match
    • Do we allow the CAP to have benefits in some of the weather conditions and if so, how od we balance it so it doesn't become a way to counter one type of weather or be used only in weather?
    Explanation: Looking back on my old idea and the metagame as a whole, the thing that does stand out is the over centralization on weather. Being able to effectively "counter" this without he CAP being over powered is hard due to the popularity of the Big 3 (SS, Rain, Sun), so instead lets look at the things that make weather so powerful and try to cripple Pokemon from that area.

    We already have Pokemon to do this somewhat in the Pokemon world in these spectrums (Alomamola and Soak for type, Rotom Trick for items, Cofagrius and Mummy for ability, etc) but these Pokemon suffer with the problem of:-

    1. Being unable to do anything with what they do (such as Soak)
    2. Can cripple one opponent potentially but then be normal after (Trick users)
    3. Can change abilities but cannot do anything after that
    So what the idea of this is would be to create a CAP that could effectively due one of these roles or be able to capitalise on what they have done on the next turn. Although items are staples of all Pokemon, it's their effectiveness when combined with an ability and/or weather that really makes them shine (Ice Body Walerin, Rain Dish Tentacruel, LO Chlorophyll Venusaur).

    Now the thing I propose mainly is a Pokemon that can "mess" with an opponent to the extent that the Pokemon that shines due to weather or has shined due to weather can suddenly be crippled without taking their sunshine/rain/sand away. It will be a Pokemon not used primarily as a weather counter, but will have use of it's abilities outside due to the Shenanigans it brings through using some possible low end moves and using them to their full advantage.

    I do have particular specific examples in mind with how we could primarily use the tools of something we don't see very often to cripple and potentially create numerous problem but I will leave it open ended to see what kind of things could possibly be brought to the table when looking at this potential CAP idea. It could be a large movepool which allows for these tricks to be used against certain teams and that in itself runs a risk. If you have a set focusing on each one, they will be effective, but will be at it's "peak" in prime conditions and usable outside those conditions.
  13. Magolor

    Magolor

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2012
    Messages:
    102
    Well, I guess why not give some of my thoughts on the more recent concepts?

    Chuddlewink's Chancey

    While hax is a big part of this metagame, trying to find ways to completely rely on it is not the best of ideas, hax is well, unreliable, simply put, and most people try to avoid overtly haxy things if they can. While jirachi is a top threat due to it's parahaxing, jirachi has many other non hax relted things that it could do (Calm mind, set stealth rocks, wish pass etc.) that make it a versatile pokemon.

    Mr. Holiday's Uber CAP

    I have seen similar concepts like this before, and while it does have some merit (helping us know what qualities make a suspect pokemon) I think it's a really vauge, while I like having multiple ways to solve a problem, one problem like this could just lead to a muddled process.

    GatoDelFuego's Chill Pill

    I like this idea, it more or less tries to make stall more viable while not just going "lol fuk offense" and giving offense teams the option to replace a potential attacker with a reset button if things go pear shaped. It seems to try and take a large part of pokemon (battle momentum) while not going for entirely a "Tomohawk 2.0"

    While there are a couple more concpets I really am not sure on what to say on them, I will edit this later when I get an idea.
  14. JEFLIV

    JEFLIV

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    209
    I do like the whole "annoyer concept" but I think that the idea needs some tweaks. The major problem I have is how unspecific you are with the strategies, but I am just a n00b and there is no reason to listen to me. One improvement I have is to make it different from Wobuffet not just HP-wise. Give it some attack like Iron Head with flinch.
  15. Tpyo

    Tpyo

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    16
    Concept: "Auxiliary Afflictions"
    Description: A pokemon that focuses on using secondary status afflictions to defeat the foe.

    Justification: Poison, Burn, Paralyze, and Sleep are important status ailments in the Pokemon meta game. What about using a pokemon that tried to abuse confusion, leech seed, curse (ghost), and attract (unlikely to be effective).

    Questions To Be Answered:
    -Is confuse simply too unreliable to be used effectively no matter how a pokemon is built?
    -In what situations are these abilities best applied?
    -What can be done to minimize the danger of relying on these more subtle forms of combat?
    -Does a trap-type ability need to be used to prevent or minimize switch outs?
    -Do these abilities invite pursuit abuse?
    -What are different ways to survive long enough to see these statuses do their job effectively?
    -Can Curse become a reasonable way to defeat an opponent despite its massive cost?

    Explanation: I've seen similar submissions in the past and am hoping to revisit some possible discussion on this matter. The major issue I've seen in the past specifically concerns confuse being too hit or miss.

    I think these abilities have some interesting potential in the meta game. Obviously seed-sub is a great strategy but what about using seed with confuse to keep a pokemon alive long enough to see ghost curse tear the opponent to bits. Perhaps unaware may be a great way to see swagger kill a sweeper. Should abilities be taken that increase the chances for secondary effects like confuse to be applied? Unfortunately attract is not a very reasonable contender for this build because of the existence of so many genderless type and the likelihood of facing a same-gendered foe. Perhaps other moves like bind, clamp, firespin, or wrap could see some work if used just right. I'm sure a pokemon that uses these alternative status ailments would definitely look into playing with the primaries as well, but can we disincentivize relying on them exclusively for this pokemon?
  16. Tpyo

    Tpyo

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    16
    I was all gun hoe on reviewing at least half of the concepts in one go, but got tired quickly! will come back and try to review more later.

    Show Hide
    The Heart of Stall: I like this idea and this is can be taken to some interesting places, however, I am curious how much a single pokemon might be able to transform a stall team into something that can hold up against some of the offensive nightmares that have been creeping up.

    Climate Control: I like the idea of messing with weather starters, but I hope the solution doesn't turn out to be starting a different weather. There are other ways to trap opponents besides arena trap, but could they be made viable? Is shadowtag one of the only alternatives? what about trapping moves?

    The Big Dipper: The idea of neutralizing parts of an enemy's "core" to get to the heart of things is fascinating, but I think the meta game is offensive enough that we may not need to explore this option at the moment. I see somethign like this using Unaware almost garunteed.

    Number Cruncher: Interesting idea, but I am not sure I am qualified to comment... I'm not entirely sure where I could see this going... Just thinking of the math behind it gives me a headache already... Unless you are trying to defeat the opponent by doing exactly that?

    Chill Pill: I support learning more about controlling the momentum in the game with certain pokemon. When an opponent builds up their momentum how can you stop that and slow things down in your favor? Does an example like this require a way to shut down danced up pokemon immediately or are there other strategies? slowing down the game and allowing stallers more time to do their work already

    Compact movepool: This is a neat way to make a less complicated pokemon and it would be cool to add massive diversity despite as few options as possible? Will a pokemon with this design be pidgeonholed with just the best moves it has or what?

    Type Equalizer: I fully support anything that brings more diversity to the table.

    Ability Matchmaker: Same as above, I fully support anythign that takes uncommon thigns and brigns them to the forefront.

    Ultimate Priority Abuser: I think we have enough priority abuse as it is.

    Weather Balancer: I'm not sure balancing all weather is in the hands of a single 'mon.

    Frostbite: Ahhh, Ice! I love the frozen status but the randomness of it can be infuriating. Not sure if there is anything in game without adding new abilities, mechanics, or moves that would be able to fix this though.

    All Hail Hail: Of the weathers, this one irritates me the least at the moment and I would not be against studying a pokemon that takes advantage of this. Its possible that a 'mon like this could play a climate control-like role, but ultimately that would lead back into more weather wars.

    Psych Out: After some of the recent CAPs I imagine a pokemon under this design would rely on a massive movepool so that the opponent never knows what will hit them next, not 100% sold on it, but the Mental Games it brings out is rather intriging.

    Complete focus: Aren't there plenty glass cannon's and meatshields already? I think this role has been done plenty by GameFreak themselves.

    One-Timer: While I like the idea of a pokemon that might only be able to pop in to be a sweeper for its first switch-in, I think a support mon or staller needs the versatility of moving in and out of battle, this concept would only hurt those signficantly and make a great premier sweeper.

    Offense-breaker: Would this pokemon simple have astronomical defensive stats, perfect typing, and rely on toxic or burn to do its dirty work?

    Sacrifice: Initially I think this idea is terrible from a part of the general description "a pokemon that is better for the team dead." There is no case of that, but the "(or dying)" is a possible direction to explore. Maybe an ability like Curse (on a ghost Type), Curse Song, or Lunar Dance (after a few ticks of curse). I would be fascinated by a Ghost type that uses poison heal and curse to do some damage, but in the end is that even the direction a pokemon with those moves would take?

    Weather Warrior: I don't think we need more pokemon that can make use of rain dance or sunny day or Sand storm. Didn't Mollux end up fillign this role by being great in rain dance with dry skin and otherwise beign great in sun with fire abilties and solar beam?

    Faustian Bargain: After reading this I immediately thoguth of the complete focus concept from above, but I am curious more about the "maybe somethign else, by creating a rical that lacks that trait." I would really be interest to see where a concept in that direction could be taken.

    Small But Terrible: I just love this idea because it seems to want to walk away from the power creep but stay useful.

    Leading the Charge: Hmmmmmmm, This one is neat but so difficult to pull off because of game mechanics.
  17. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,782
    Ok, just a few more comments on the newest ones.

    chuddlewinks's Chancey: Well, the thing that stands out here is that it seems like you just want to rebuild Jirachi. While obviously Jirachi has a lot more going for it, and there is certainly something to be learned for seeing how willing people are to trust their fate to chance, I don't see us doing too much with this that existing Pokemon can't already teach us.

    Mr Holiday's Uber CAP: For the CAP project, the Pokemon we make are all designed for the OU tier for many reasons, first and foremost due to the fact that it is the standard and thus most popular tier we have. As such, we really have no interest of doing an ubers project at this time. That being said, we have in the past talked about doing projects for other tiers, and while I can't say if it will ever happen, you can look over to the Policy Review subforum for more info on why we have chosen to stick solely to OU for now.

    Repairmanmanman's Mr. Toolman: This is actually a very interesting approach about which I have never thought before. Since an item is not a part of the pokemon itself, they are often ignored during the process except for certain calcs during the stats stage. With that said, it is still a very broad concept, and I think it could use some focusing. I don't think you want to specify an item or anything, leaving that open is a good thing, but going more into what you want to learn about that item is quite important.

    reachzero's Setting the Pace: I know this has gotten a lot of talk over on irc today since you came up with it, but I want to reiterate here that I think this is a fantastic concept. Speed plays such a huge role in every single turn of a battle, and I love the idea of examining how things work differently depending on the speed situation.

    xam13124's Low Stat Physical Wall: Well, to start off, this concept is similar to a few, in trying to be a non-traditional wall. My primary concern here is that you say you want low stats and to wall through other methods, and yet you claim that the pokemon with great stats and good other things such as typing can't even do it, which makes it hard to believe this will be possible. You should probably think more about how going about a Pokemon like this would even work if existing Pokemon that have what this will not can't get the job done.

    Midnight's That Opponent Seems Different: This is a very unique approach to a weather concept in that it seeks to beat weather but not outright counter it. The goal here is to look at what weather sweepers need most to succeded, other than the weather itself, and take it away. Once again though I will ask what exactly is it that this concept would try and teach us about? Its a cool thought, but I'm not completely sure what we would get out of it.
  18. B.Reinquist

    B.Reinquist

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    30
    I'm a bit late to that party, but I had an idea that I thought of after seeing the other posts.

    Name: The Weather Wobbuffet

    General Description: A Pokemon with limited stats and limited movepool, but due to the synergy of both is able to set up multiple different weather types over the course of a game.

    Justification: Rain, as many have pointed out, is the defining weather of this Generation, not only due to the strength of it's summoner, but it's multiple effects and wide ranging benefits to many different Pokemon. This concept would allow the user to check each weather summoner and shift the weather in another direction with ease, without losing momentum throughout the match. Similar to Wobbuffet, there would be little variation in the movepool, but with proper prediction and planning this CAP could alter the way weather is played.

    Questions to be Answered:
    • Does controlling the weather give you any significant advantages?
    • Is it better to use one weather type or are multiple weathers viable?
    • Is it worth it to sacrifice some momentum if it means controlling weather in the long run?
    • What moves create the best combination to counter weather?
    • Are people more interested in stopping rain or will this CAP simply reinforce it? Should this be an exclusively anti-rain CAP?
    • What abilities are the most weather oriented?

    Explanation: A small focused movepool, centered around one thing. Controlling weather. I was envisaging something similar to a bulky Prankster user with access to each weather move and then a switching move or an Air Lock type of ability that removes weather when it enters. There would need to be discussion about how exactly to handle this CAP, as I'm sure there are hundred of viable 4 move options yet to even be thought of, but amongst them has to be a potent combination that can dethrone weather as king.
  19. Repairmanmanman

    Repairmanmanman

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Thank you for the response jas61292. Some minor tweaks here and there to make my topic stand out. Time to send a final submission because I have class in a bit and if I don't send it in, I'll miss the deadline =P

    Final Submission

    Name: Mr. Toolbox (Originally Mr. Toolman)

    General Description: We create a CAP based around an item(s) that are rarely utilized within the metagame.

    Justification: Ever since items were released during the GSC era, they redifined (and are continually redefining) how to go about formulating a victory. Some items are used more than others depending on what it was best designed to do. This Pokemon will utilize some (or one) of the rarely used items currently available to be a potential threat to the metagame.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • What defines an item's usefulness?
    • What defines a Pokemon's purpose based on the item it carries into battle?
    • What makes particular items (ie. Choice items, recovery items, berries, Gems) crucial to the current metagame?
    • Do typing, abilities, and EV's/IV's play an essential role in deciding what item best suits a Pokemon?
    • How do we choose a particularly rarely used item(s) (ie. King's rock, Scope Lens, Metronome, etc.) based on these factors?
    • What kind of impact will this Pokemon have based on the item(s) we choose to give it?
    • Do we want our CAP to be a master of one item or jack of many items?
    • What rarely used playstyles (ie. Crit hax, Flinch hax, taking residual damage from an item, boosting one particular move, etc.) can we potentially reimagine or construct in order to make our CAP a threat in the metagame?
    • Can a Pokemon still function if its item disappears? Whether it be used in a flash or it be stolen/taken away (via Trick or Knock Off).

    Explanation: Just as abilities added another dimension onto battling when released during the RBE era, items play an important role in every match. Whether you need a Jellicent to carry leftovers to recover HP when walling hits or you need your shiny Scizor to power through your opponents team with Choice Band, items play a determining role in how a match will play out. The key here for this CAP however is to utilize some items in the metagame that are either rarely used or never looked upon based on their merit. Many common trends within the metagame include (but are not limited to): utilizing leftovers to make a wall or tank sponge hits, using choice items to boost attack, special attack, or speed, or specific items such as toxic or flame orb to transfer a status or utilize the status. I want us to delve and look into rare or unused items that can potentially make an impact on the metagame, whether the item(s) help stall a match or potentially turn the tide of a match. As broad as this topic may be, it still serves as a template for a possibly threatening CAP within the metagame. Similar to Mollux in understanding how typing plays a role in battles, I want us to really study how items have defined previous and current metagames and possibly redefine or find new strategies surrounding what items are used. Though finding typings, stats, and abilities will be tricky for this CAP, if we can find rarely utilized items that we can work around, we'll already have the stepping stones for a unique CAP.
  20. JEFLIV

    JEFLIV

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    209
    final submission

    Name: Versatilely Shielded
    General Description: A pokemon who relies on different aspects to resist different things.
    Justification: In my opinion, it seems that CAP should have a pokemon who is versatile defensively and not just offensively. It would utilize different strategies and properties in order to resist different offensive gimmicks. This could teach us many things about versatility not only in attacks, but in defenses.
    Questions To Be Answered:
    * Would a pokemon like this be viable in OU?
    * If it has many defenses, will it be able to cope offensively w/o being OPed?
    * Could items help it?
    * Would it only work with certain support?
    Explanation: I support this concept because it's a very helpful one. It will help us learn that victory can sometimes come to the better-defended side if it's used and supported properly. The pokemon would, for example, learn Mirror Coat but not Counter. This would seem odd, but it would also have an aspect like learning Iron Defense or having Iron Barbs as an ability. At the risk of sounding corny, I think that the most important aspect of this pokemon would be that it's fun to use. I feel that's what CAP is all about, besides learning.
  21. The Steam Punk

    The Steam Punk

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    155
    Final Submission

    Name: Abusability
    Description: A Pokemon with a detrimental ability that abuses the ability in a way that either benefits itself or hinders its opponent.
    Justification: By taking a bad ability (e.g. Stall, Truant, Defeatist, etc.) and making a Pokemon that takes advantage of the ability and makes something positive out of it, we can really expose the inner workings of the ability, and new, innovative strategies would have to be made.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Can a Pokemon take advantage of a detrimental ability?
    • How can a Pokemon take advantage of a bad ability?
    • What positive things could possibly come from a bad ability?
    • Could such a Pokemon sweep a team? OR...
    • Could such a Pokemon be a good supporter?
    • What could counter such a Pokemon?
    • How could a team and strategy be built around such a Pokemon?

    Explanation: Give a Pokemon an awful ability, and it falls from popularity immediately. Take Slaking, for example. It's a powerhouse, with extremely high attack, good defenses, and decent speed. But its ability, Truant, single-handedly sent Slaking to NU, when in reality it still performs well in the higher tiers. Now, what would happen if a Pokemon could take advantage of Truant, like Durant? Durant has Truant, but it can use Entrainment to give it to its opponent, foiling his strategy. This is what I propose we make: a CAP like Durant that can be used in a strategy that takes advantage of its awful ability. The process of creating such a CAP and a strategy around it would provoke much thought in the forums, and make for a mighty fun and challenging time for all.
  22. Lster728

    Lster728

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    This is my final copy of my idea. Make sure you read the explanation as this topic is much more than just the difference between physical and special. Please provide feedback ;)

  23. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    2,782
    Well, the time has come to wrap this up. A lot of good entries, but I had to narrow it down to a reasonable number. So, here is the slate:

    Yilx's The Big Dipper
    Pwnemon's Hazard Control
    Base Speed's Type Equalizer
    reachzero's Setting the Pace
    toshimelonhead's Mercenary
    SlimMan's Substitute Abuse
    Korski's Weather Warrior

    ----

    Yilx’s concept caught my eye immediately. The thing I like so much about this concept are the discussion points it has right in the questions. Addressing what is a core, and how one goes about beating it would make for a fine project direction. There is plenty to discuss, and plenty of freedom in how we go about doing it. It has some of the most solid goals of all concepts, and I think it would lead to an excellent process.

    I think Pwnemon’s concept is really cool because it addresses the big topic of the day in OU. While everyone loves talking about weather, it is obvious that the current suspect test is all about hazards. I like how this concept is not simply about making hazards less of a problem for your team, but about trying to slightly alter the culture of OU. It’s easy to make a good spinner or magic bouncer and say you are trying to address hazards, but this is about something much more significant than that. Nothing is going to remove hazards from OU, but trying to reduce their significance, even just a little, is a great direction to take.

    Base Speed took a cool direction with his concept. While a lot of people like to focus on team types, this takes a different spin by focusing on types themselves. Actually delving into what types are good and why could lead to plenty of great discussion. Originally I was unsure about this one cause it reminded me a bit about Mollux’s concept as far as studying types, but the difference is that here we focus more on the typing of Pokémon currently in existence. With this, we can try and discover if certain typings are simply better than others, or if a slight metagame shift can bring out the potential in some types that previously failed to shine.

    While a bit late to the party, reachzero’s concept is just simply fantastic in its goals and scope. Broad enough so that each stage has plenty of options, but clearly focused on something that is of importance in every single battle ever played. While we always passively address the issue of speed, I would love to have a project focused on seeing how different speed interactions effect the way things play.

    As with Yilx’s concept, one of the reasons I was greatly drawn to toshimelonhead’s was that it really is focused on a certain Pokémon concept that everyone knows about, but we have never really deeply examined. In this case, it is counters. While we have discussions about counters every project, we always simply talk about what Pokémon we want and do not want them to be. This concept would give us a chance to really address what being a counter actually means.

    I decided to put SlimMan’s concept on the slate because, like reach’s, it addresses an important part of competitive Pokémon that has been used every single day, for multiple generations, but has never really been delved deeply into. Substitute is the single most versatile move in the game, and one of the most common as well. By doing this concept, we would be looking into what are really the best uses of this amazing move, and I’m sure we would also learn plenty on how to beat it as well.

    With all the talk of weather out there, it would be an injustice not to have at least one weather related concept on the slate. There were a couple that I was really considering, but they were similar enough that I didn't really want to slate more than one, and deciding which to go with was probably the hardest decision I had to make. In the end I decided to go with Korski’s because, of all the well formulated weather concepts, I feel that his is the most achievable. Addressing weather is certainly an important issue, and if we are going to do it, I would like to do so with a concept whose necessary goals for learning are ones which we can approach with a good amount of confidence.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)