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CAP 5 Discussion (Concept Assessment)

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Birkal, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    [​IMG]


    Hey guys! For those of you who don't know me, I'm Birkal, one of the moderators here in Overused. I'm also heavily involved in Smogon's Create-A-Pokemon Project, which is a competitive project in which we as a community create a Pokemon that gets implemented into the current Overused metagame. I like to do useful things when I hit 1k post marks, so have a thread~

    For those of you who didn't know, CAP historically originated right here in the Overused forum! It was a project started five years ago; it's the modern day equivalent of Research Week and Viability Ranking threads. It started as some humble voting threads in Stark Mountain, where the community theorymon'd a Pokemon that was basically meant to kill Garchomp. Skip forward five years and you can see what CAP has become today in its own forum. Hundreds of users gather each CAP to debate, create, and vote. It's impressive that CAP has grown so much over the years to involve such a large number of users.

    However, I've noticed that the CAP community and the Overused community have somehow grown apart. CAP has developed its own culture, veteran users, and rules. And it is true that some Overused battlers and posters venture into CAP. But what most users don't realize is this: CAP is OUR project as an Overused community. Yes, CAP makes pretty pictures and writes descriptions, but CAP's primary goal is to be a competitive project (read about it in our Mission Statement). What we glorify above all else in CAP is competitive knowledge of the game; we're looking for ladderers, tournament winners, and team builders. Let it be known that if you post in a CAP thread and state your involvement in the Overused metagame, your opinions will be revered highly (it doesn't need to be a long post either). Essentially, CAP wants you.

    CAP 5 has just begun. In about two months, we'll have finished created a Pokemon that will get released into BW2 OU. Note that we don't make Pokemon for the CAP spin-off metagame (where all the past CAPs are thrown into OU), we make them specifically for BW2 OU, the metagame that you are all laddering and studying right now. So, what I'd like to do is open the floor up to the Overused community to talk about CAP here in the comfort of our own forum. Remember though, CAP is a public project; you're allowed to make submissions and cast votes there whenever you like. The purpose of this thread is to be a general discussion about the current CAP 5. Here are some of the topics we can talk about in this thread:


    • What kind of CAP do you want in the current Overused metagame? Everyone seems to have a sort of "wish list" of how they would tweak the Overused metagame. CAP provides an outlet for us to make those adjustments and study the results. CAP can work to do things like eliminate weather, stop VoltTurn, and prevent entry hazards. Let your imagination run here.

    • What aspect of battling are you interested in studying? CAP is unique in that it allows us to focus in on specific parts of battling. Want to learn more about risk? Or maybe learn more about prediction? It could even be a topic like teambuilding or win predictions.

    • What are your impressions of current CAP events? You're allowed to post feedback and thoughts in CAP threads, but feel free to really "speak your mind" in this thread. CAP has become famous for tl;dr posts, but this thread can be filled with short and sweet posts. Feel free to talk about current submissions that you like and dislike.

    That should be about it! This thread can also serve as a sort of Question & Answer about CAP. If you guys have any questions, post them and I'll do my best to answer them. I'm excited for CAP 5 to begin, and I hope that you guys take full advantage of the resource that is CAP.


    [​IMG]


    Current CAP 5 Step: Concept Assessment

    Goal: Our concept has been selected! So now, we need to discuss what exactly the concept means and how we're going to practically go about making it a reality.

    Pro-tip: Don't post a specific typing you think we should pursue. That will take place in a few days during Typing Discussion. For now, focus on the concept.

    What you can do: Get involved in the discussion, either here or there, on what you think of our concept for CAP 5.​
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Starting this thread off before Birkal starts PMSing over his lack of responces...

    Going with the standard "Fuck it would be nice seeing what a weatherless Gen 5 OU would be like". Sure, we had clear skies and shit, but I guess it could be cool to see how CAP tackles the weather factor of OU, whether it be rain, hail, sun, sand or all of them.

    Alternatively, something that cockblocks those gay Deoxys-D HO teams would be nice cos like, fuck them.
  3. Enguarde

    Enguarde I only play ADV UU
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    Well to coincide with ginganinja's post, the thing that really stands out right now is weather obviously, and how it could be very interesting to have access to a Pokemon that could effectively removes weather from the match, simply by switching in. Perhaps if it had a bulky base stat spread and/or support moves, it could really give weatherless play a good chance to shine.
  4. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    What's bigger than weather is hazard control. Those who successfully lay them down quickest would most often control the tide of the game and execute their plans better, whether it be winning the weather war, facilitating KOs by sweepers, or coming out on top in the war of attrition.

    I'd like to see a stronger bouncer of magic that matches up well against common hazard users
  5. Groombridge

    Groombridge

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    Or we could go from weatherless to ANY weather!

    Concept: March Madness

    A Pokemon with the ability to randomise weather (probably through its Ability, or alternatively a specific new move).

    Weather dominates because players can tailor their team to best take advantage of it. When the weather changes, though, these advantages are removed, hence the emphasis on 'winning the weather war'. If two different weather teams are playing, whoever KOs the opposing weather starter first has a great advantage.

    But what if weather was randomised?

    This CAP changes the current weather to something else, chosen at random, from all other weathers and even no weather at all. Maybe it can make the field foggy too - hell, maybe one time in 100, it'll pull out Gravity or Trick Room. It's Metronome for weather/field effects, essentially.

    The poke would have to be reasonably bulky to survive switch-ins, and potentially stand up to any of the existing weather starters, for one turn at least, in order to be useful. SR resist/neutrality would be a huge plus.

    If random weather activates immediately, like an Ability, then you have an all-purpose weather counter. Sun team about to Chlorosweep? Now it's hailing! Rain stall getting you down? Let's see how you feel in the fog. SubRoost Kyurem stomping your team? Now it's Wonder Room? What does that do again?

    This might seem 'too random'. Generally, we aim to keep things 'skill-based', hence Evasion clause and so on. But the RNG is at the very heart of Pokemon: damage rolls are randomised to a degree, and crits and side effects are all dished out with probabilities. It's a core part of the game. And the randomness here would, ironically, take the certainty out of playing a weather team: namely, if I kill your weather poke or you don't have one, gg.

    Weather teams would still be effective with this guy around. For one thing, you could just KO him like any other weather poke. But while he's in play, weather teams can take nothing at all for granted.

    There's the fun aspect too. Teams with this CAP have to prepared for anything, as a match could easily turn into a twenty-switch Weather Channel special. He might inadvertently activate an enemy Mamoswine's Snow Cloak, or give Trick Room to Escavalier.
  6. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    As far as I know, custom abilities are off the table for this CAP. Basically that makes most of these ideas unviable.

    Do you really think that we could limit weather that successfully with one pokemon? I was questioning, in relation to my concept, whether we could even put it on an equal footing with weatherless teams, let alone remove them entirely. Unless this pokemon is horrendously overpowered, or we allow a custom ability, there is no chance of weather disappearing. I don't see why that would make it boring anyway - see the generally superior metagames of adv and DPP.
  7. scorpdestroyer

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    Seeing as Hail is the least dangerous weather (with only 100% accurate Blizzard to boast of), what about a Pokemon with Snow Warning with more supporting options? This will make weather wars very, very interesting.

    Name: Snow Summoner
    Type: Ice/Rock -- This differentiates it from Abomasnow, giving it a whole different set of resistances and weaknesses. Other types also possible, but Ice type for hail immunity. Gives the user a choice between a 4x weakness to fighting or a 4x weakness to fire.
    Abilities: Snow Warning

    Preferably, this mon will get a low speed stat to outslow other weathers but better stats in other areas compared with the other auto-hail Abomasnow--much like Hippowdon and Tyranitar function as sand setters, but with totally different playstyles. This mon is going to make hail become a more viable strategy, with maybe a whole lot more team support options such as dual screens and rapid spin, as well as a more specialized stat spread and moveset (not as balanced as Abomasnow) to function as a bulky guy / offensive guy depending on how you guys want it. Much like how Abomasnow loses to Ninetales and Tyranitar and kinda beats Politoed (and Hippo, to a lesser extent), this mon will be designed to beat out other weather starters that Abomasnow cant, while losing to others.
  8. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    This seems like a really, really bad idea. While flavor-wise its kind of cool, there's too much randomness to be effective, and it won't be a very good choice. For example, say Feerrothorn is sitting in a sandstorm, and you want this poke to take it out. You send it in, and... Rain. Now its Fire weakness is muted. Or even worse, its Trick Room, and now you have Ferrothorn flying around at mach speed, and you'll have to take a hit to take it out. It seems to me that this is just way too random to be useful, and you would probably do better trying to put a counter to a problem weather than using this.

    So, onto other thoughts. I'd like to see something that can give weatherless teams a bit of a boost. Something that functions in all weathers, not really getting a benefit, but it isn't hampered by them either, and it can deal with several weather threats easily. Barring that, something that does hazard control, a la Pocket's post. I personally would like to see another Rapid Spinner that these days, and there certainly is a never ending demand for them.
  9. Groombridge

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    The point is it changes the weather to anything but what it currently is: whatever they were relying on before, now it's gone. For instance, Ferrothorn is a staple on Rain teams, so in Drizzle conditions, you switch in and there goes its reduced Fire weakness - no matter what the weather is now. But it totally depends on the situation, same as any 'what happens when X switches in?' scenario. Ferro doesn't mind Sand either. Lots of things do okay in multiple weathers.

    It would totally depend on the quality of the poke if it would work or not. Like, Magic Bounce is a great idea, but it only works in practice because it's attached to Espeon (130 SpA and 110 Spe, Calm Mind, Baton Pass) and Xatu (Roost, Thunder Wave, U-turn). It's not the ability in isolation, the poke that has it has to be usable. If only Ledian had Magic Bounce, it would be useless.

    If the weather randomiser was, I don't know, a bulky Dragon with Roost and Dragon Dance, then we'd see if the ability worked. It's not just that it randomises the weather, it's what it does with that. If it brings Sun against Ferrothorn (and carries Fire Blast), can it get in a DD? What if it brings fog and hampers its own sweeping ability?

    (Trick Room was a 1-in-100 chance when I mentioned it - there's no need to include field effects at all)

    The ability could be a double-edged sword, sure, but that's the price it pays for spannering all weather teams at once. Seems like it could be more fun than shutting down weather altogether.
  10. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

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    I like the idea of a Pokemon that can ruin weather. I think that if we tread carefully, we might be able to make a mon that counters all weather without it being completely broken. For example, Latias wrecks sun and a majority of rain (that is, with a bit of support), and it's nowhere near. Regardless, I think that am anti-weather mon would be really cool.

    Also, it we're going to focus cap5 on hazards, it should be ghost-type. That would be awesome.
  11. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are here
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    It's well-known that stall has really taken a beating this generation. I believe that's because of the massive amounts of offensive pressure and momentum that most teams can manage to constantly keep up against defensive ones. While tomohawk was designed to control momentum, I think the metagame could benefit from a pokemon that could just slow the pace of the game down a little.
  12. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Name: One shot at glory
    Description: This pokémon is capable of causing great damage to the opponent's team if not outright destroying it, but; because of its shortcomings, can only attempt this one.

    Gen V is filled with resilent and powerful 'mons - Terrakion and Keldeo both have decent 91/90/90 defenses; Chomp, and Nite stand at 108/95/85 and 91/95/100 respectively, and the mighty Kyurem-B peaks at 125/100/90. Because of this and more, these powerhouses can keep coming in and out of the field to launch repeated assaults, weakening the oposition, or attempt a sweep more than once.

    With these threats running around, how effective can a 'mon that only has one chance to perform its job be? How much additional power must it pack behind its attacks to offset its shortcomings? Think of Archeops for example. It has jaw dropping offensive stats - 140/112/110, but its typing, low bulk, and supbar ability made it plummet to RU. Could a similar (but better) mon thrive in the OU metagame, or would it suffer the same fate as the prehistoric bird?

    EDIT: Apologies, I didn't realize this wasn't the submission thread. I could also use some feedback on this suggestion - what does everyone think of it?
  13. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    In response to Groombridge (and others wondering the same thing), CAP has banned custom abilities. So please don't create concepts that require one; we're focused on studying in-game scenarios of Pokemon battling.

    I also think that stopping weather is very interesting, but my question then is this: what prevents someone from putting that 'mon on their weather team to stop other weather teams? I think there are ways of answering that question, but it's something that you have to think about when looking at these concepts.
  14. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego No matter if it seems so hard, friends are here
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    Should we be copypasting our entries from the concept submission thread and putting them here, or is one of the threads strictly a discussion thread and the other the submission thread? iirc in the past the one in the CAP forum was pretty much both.
  15. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    I agree with Pocket that hazards control is where it's at right now. I would love to see a Pokémon that can both set hazards and spin. Forretress can do that, but it's pretty lackluster to be honest, and its weak special defense and HP aren't doing it any favors. Something with better speed and more balanced defenses. Something with, like, base 100 speed and base 110 HP with maybe base 90 defenses and base 70ish attacking stats. It would be very susceptible to Taunt, and depending on its typing, it wouldn't be too hard to KO, not to mention with low offenses, it wouldn't be able to take out most spinblockers (again, depending on its type/movepool).
  16. Unitas

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    Woah, just wanna say that i posted a concept extremely, extremely similar to this without out knowing. I did it approximately 20 minutes after you posted this. I can remove my submission form the concept submission thread if you would like. So strange how we came up with such a similar concept.
  17. ZandgaiaX

    ZandgaiaX

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    Name: Specific Unspecific Denial

    Description: This pokémon focuses on a small support movepool, with ok-ish stats with it's highest stats being either HP or Speed. The trick with this pokémon should be it's ability to use three very useful abilities that make it a great counter to a certain type of team, but lackluster if not.

    By combining average stats, three great, but very different abilities (Think abilities like Magic Bounce, Simple, Magic Guard, Prankster and Cloud Nine) and a small but usable movepool with a focus on support. Would this pokémon work in the current metagame, or would it be a highly situational pokémon. Would be be more useful for offensive or stall oriented teams?

    The idea is that it's pretty much a weaker, and more specific Deoxys-D to create a 'glue' for a defensive core. Having a very small, but still usable movepool means that this pokémon has to rely on it's abilities and perhaps it's typing to do what it has to do. Most likely it's stats should be so that it can only use night shade/seismic toss as a reliable attacking move, yet at the same time not trying to toxic everything it sees. Using moves like Rapid Spin, Wish, Stealth Rock, Gravity Taunt and Torment to create an interesting niché in a very offense-oriented metagame.

    I wouldn't know how to work this out, but think along the lines of Porygon2 back in Gen 4: a pokémon that can work when used correctly by combining it's ability with a reliable but small movepool to make offensive threats shudder in fear.

    Edit: Or think about politoed: ok-ish stats and movepool, but combined with it's ability (and in this cap's case: typing) it makes it a very common pokémon.

    Edit: pretty much, the basic idea is that this pokémon is created to screw over the current metagame and it's most common toys, but being considered 'useless' outside of said metagame. As such, creating an idea that this pokémon can only work in certain specific metagames: i.e. a pokémon overreliant on the current metagame to be even considered useful.
  18. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    Concept: Pokemon uses cloud nine to give weather lacking teams a shot a checking prominent weather sweepers, without relying on their own weather.

    Weatherless teams are hard to use because of the advantage that weather has over them, and as a result successful teams are usually similar, easy to use, and rigid. This would be a bulky dragon, possibly dragon/ghost typed pokemon that is capable of tanking water and fire moves and eliminating chlorophyll, sun, and rain boosts so it can check these sweepers. Weatherless teams are currently screwed by a sun team with venusaur, since heatran is too slow and vulnerable to be used on an offensive weatherless team for the most part. This pokemon would be decently fast, have good coverage, and be bulky. It wouldn't have strong boosting moves, but it could also be a potent offensive threat, but not the best sweeper.
  19. Infernis

    Infernis

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    Name: Ultimate Weather Defuser

    General Description: A Pokemon that can control the weather and shift momentum away from an opposing weather team without simply becoming another tool for extant weather teams to continue their dominance.

    Justification: The entire metagame has shifted to weather wars, particularly due to Drizzle Politoed, and also to a lesser extent Tyranitar and Ninetales. (And to a pathetically lesser extent, Abomasnow.) A team that doesn't take advantage of weather has a hard time facing one that does.

    Questions To Be Answered:

    • How does one make a weather limiter that doesn't help current rain/sun teams overmuch against their opposite weather?
    • What sort of Pokemon fares well against the common themes and Pokemon of weather teams? (e.g. stopping a sweeper like Venusaur or Kingdra.)
    • Why are extant Cloud Nine users unable to perform their function in OU?
    Explanation: I know we're not supposed to specify such things as 'when this Pokemon switches in, all weather is nullified' or 'this Pokemon should have (ability)', but in a metagame utterly dominated by weather, it really would be handy to have something to keep the skies clear. There have been a couple other suggestions in this thread on the matter, and while this may be a similar suggestion, I believe the variations between them can lead to more creative discourse.

    We currently have Golduck/Altaria/Lickilicky for Cloud Nine, but they're almost unusable in OU. Rayquaza and its Air Lock ability are locked into Ubers. "Ultimate Weather Abuser" was listed as a good idea, so "Ultimate Weather Defuser" sounds like a fun parallel. Once infinite weather starts, there only exist moves to change the weather, and asides from Cloud Nine, only abilities that change the weather. Stopping it entirely is uncommon. It gives the advantage to neither team, but could make certain Pokemon that fare poorly in all three of the more common weather types more useable.
  20. Ninetale3

    Ninetale3

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    Concept Name: the phazing wonder

    Concept: A pokemon that can phaze the opponent will having a workable support move pool and stats to boot.

    I feel what would be a fun cap is a phazing masterpiece. Something under lines of prankster riolu if it had the stats to back it up. I feel like having something to get rid of weathers isn't that entertaining in my mind.

    This would make an interesting idea since this would give more bulky teams an edge to hyper offense. Giving these teams a scapegoat should they end up having a massive weakness to these teams.
  21. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
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    just popping in to say, posting a concept here doesn't mean anything, you need to post it in the linked thread if you want it to count~

    also stop by #cap if you want help with submitting a concept officially. This thread is mostly for discussion of what's happening in CAP, and so those of us who are well-acquainted with the CAP process can use it as a sounding board for what OU players who may or may not want to wade into our subforum are thinking.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i don't have a really specific outline for this like infernis does, but i'd love to see some sort of weather neutralizing all-around defensive pokemon with access to some nice utility moves. something like a bulky water-type with air lock, roughly 100-110-110 base defenses, recover, toxic, maybe hazards? gosh that would be nice...above all though, regardless of what type of pokemon or what style we choose to do, i think something that nerfs weather or neutralizes it entirely is something a good portion of the community would desire and have fun playing around with, popularizing cap and giving us a taste of a metagame where weather isn't such a driving force.
  23. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    I've always been afraid of CAP. I pictured CAP members as hooded cult members who meet in the library at night and speak in hushed tones. That has kept me from contributing to CAP ever since Tomohawk, when I first became interested in the project. So I'd like to thank Birkal for bringing this here. It is allowing me to take baby-steps as I get into CAP.

    That said, I'm still timid, which is why I'm asking my fellow OUers for their feedback on my Concept. It's not ready to submit in the actual submission thread, so please let me know if you think it's a good/bad/eh-has-potential idea!

    -----

    Name: Substitute Abuse (I was thinking of doing something clever... like "Game. Sub. Match." But then I thought that there probs aren't many tennis players on Smogon)

    Description: A Pokemon which, through all of its qualities, is able to abuse Substitute as well as possible, and in as many different ways as possible.

    Justification: Substitute is a weird move. When you use it, you aren't attacking, you aren't healing, you aren't boosting, you aren't status'ing... It is truly in a category of its own. Additionally, Substitute is a move which has indisputably had a large impact on the OU metagame. It's easy to argue that Substitute single-handedly, or at least to a large degree, led to the banning of Garchomp, and later Sand Veil. Despite this though, I feel that it is a relatively unexplored move. This CAP will explore what makes Substitute so good in some scenarios and on certain Pokemon, while making it a lesser choice in others. It will attempt to reveal all the possible different utilities of the move Substitute, which no current Pokemon does.

    Questions To Be Answered:
    • Have all of the methods to effectively abuse Substitute been discovered already? Or can a Pokemon designed for the purpose find new ways to use this move?
    • A Pokemon's ability and movepool clearly affect how well it can use Substitute, but how much of an impact can other factors, such as stats and typing have?
    • Similar to the above, what is required for a Pokemon to abuse Subtitute well? Are certain "builds" of Pokemon simply better suited to this move than others?
    • With the limitations of a single Pokemon (one ability, one typing, etc.), is it possible to create a viable set for the each of the many uses of Substitute?
    • How much does the drawback of Subtitute (25% health) affect the cost/benefit of using this move? Does the drawback make certain Substitute-strategies nonviable all by itself?
    • Which is more important to a Substitute user: minimizing the cost of the move, or maximizing the benefit? Does the strategy in which Substitute is used affect which is more important?
    • Is there a best strategy for Substitute? (only on a single Pokemon could they all be compared) If so, what is it? Is there a worst strategy with Substitute?

    Explanation: There are a lot of uses for Substitute. Blocking status (SubCM Latias), Baton Passing it (SubPass Jolteon), stalling (SubToxic Tentacruel), using it as a buffer during set-up (SubSD Garchommp), easing prediction (Sub+3 Attacks Hydreigon), and that's just the tip of the iceberg! You've also got SubSeeders, SubPunchers, and a myriad of other Pokemon which use this move. But out of all the Pokemon who use Substitute, Breloom is the ONLY one which comes to mind who is able to utilize Substitute on more than one set (SubSeed and SubPunch for Breloom). I think that a Pokemon which could use Substitute in multiple different ways would be a very fresh and interesting addition to the OU metagame. When I was giving an example of Pokemon who abuse Substitute in different ways, just a moment ago, I tried to list the strongest example for each role that I could think of at the time. It would also be exciting for us to create a Pokemon which excels at using Substitute to the point where it could become the strongest at certain roles for Substitute.

    I can imagine that this concept seems initially limiting: "Oh, so it's movepool has to include Toxic, Leech Seed, and a few set-up moves. It also has to have Poison Heal to negate Subs and a STAB Focus Punch". But given the versatility of the move Substitute, I think that we can be much more original than simply throwing together a bunch of moves which jive well with Substitute. Although the infinite possibilities of CAP make it a very creative process, I feel that the inherent quality of Substitute to have so many different uses would allow us to create a particularly creative one this time.

    This also gives us an EXCELLENT opportunity to learn more about the role of unpredictability in a Pokemon's effectiveness. I've seen many people talk about how Pokemon like Jirachi benefit from having enough viable sets that you can't immediately counter it. This Pokemon would show us precisely how unpredictability can benefit a Pokemon, as its set would remain hidden even after using its first move (probably Substitute) most of the time!

    -----

    tl;dr people should help me with my submission, because I like the idea but I'm afraid to post in CAP's forum q.q
  24. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    That's a cool concept, SlimMan. You should post it in the CAP thread; I bet you'll get some good feedback over there!
  25. Groombridge

    Groombridge

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    That's the question - if CAP is an effective Air Lock user, what's to stop one weather team carrying it as their insurance against another?

    I think Trace might be underrated as an anti-weather ability (talking about a specific ability here, but still). A lot of the advantages of weather are the abilities it brings: Chlorophyll, Hydration, Dry Skin etc. Trace steals that advantage.

    The thing is, the only things with Trace are Porygon2 and Gardevoir. Those things, nice as they are, aren't really fast enough to take advantage of their new abilities. If Porygon2 had 100 speed - or if PorygonZ got Trace, even - it'd be different. It would be able to outspeed most things with weather-speed abilities, as generally they have base speeds under 90 or don't go max speed. From there, it can attack or take the opportunity to inflict status, potentially set hazards, whatever.

    So a weather team would still enjoy all its boosts, but it would also make CAP twice as annoying in the process. CAP itself wouldn't be so hot as part of a weather team, I don't think - it needs to be opposed to the weather team to Trace these abilities.

    Trying to think of a weather counter that isn't simply 'Air Lock the weather away'...

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