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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Movepool Limits

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Apr 12, 2013.

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  1. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    This is the stage where we set limits to Malaconda's movepool ahead of the actual movepool submissions. Malaconda's stats generate a Base Stat Rating of 282 (Good). According to the on-site article, a Very Good BSR corresponds to a Very Good movepool limit of 85 total moves and 40 "Very Good Moves". However, we may end up going higher or lower depending on the Pokémon. That is where this thread comes in. The actual list of VGMs can be found in this article.

    Also, please note that there is no vote at this stage! Our Movepool Leader (capefeather) will be gathering the community consensus at the end of this thread and making an executive decision.

    CAP 5 so far:

    Name: Malaconda

    [​IMG]

    Concept: Type Equalizer (open)


    Typing: Grass / Dark
    Threats: Link
    Primary Ability: Harvest
    Secondary Ability: Infiltrator
    Stats: 115 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 40 SpA / 130 SpD / 55 Spe
  2. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    First of all, let's clarify that the list of moves that count as VGMs is precisely the on-site VGM list, regardless of what's on or off the allowed/disallowed lists. Shadow Ball is a VGM, and Torment is not a VGM. We're transitioning into the actual submissions now, and so it makes sense for the VGMs to serve the purpose they were meant to serve. Although the VGM limit implied by the stats is 40, I have determined through a totally scientific process (what are you talking about) that 30 is an ideal limit here. I argue that a limit of 30 allows for the inclusion of moves that are universally considered pro-concept or otherwise important, as well as a good number of flavour-based and/or "obvious" VGMs, while forcing people to think about, and carefully choose between, relatively unimportant and/or controversial moves. Some people might say this is a contrast from my CAP 4 self, but my CAP 4 self was using a framework that perhaps linked too many moves to a single move. I'm not sure how critical the total move limit is in comparison, so I'm open to leaving it at 85, but if people deem it important enough to lower, then I would suggest something like 55.

    I'll give this 24 hours unless there's a big argument and such.
  3. RivRivRiv

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    If the Type-Move Guidelines are followed Malaconda will end up with 4 useless VGMs (Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Giga Drain and Grass Knot. My understanding is all three Grass moves would count as VGMs as none of them completely outclasses any of the others). I guess that's something to consider when defining the limit, but I have to say I was thinking very much along the same lines as capefeather and came up with 30 being ideal. As for total movepool I see no reason to leave it at 85 and have move pools bloated with shitty moves, so 60-65 seems about right.
  4. Nyktos

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    30 for the VGM limit is quite fine; my slight preference would be a little higher in order to make room for some extra niche moves but I have no real objections to 30. (Though I wouldn't want it any lower than that.)

    For the total limit I think 55 is too low (assuming 30 VGMs). If the goal is to make a the movepool look realistic, I don't think having over half of it be composed of VGMs really does that. Sticking to the same formula as the default limits (total move limit = 2 * VGM limit + 5, so 65 in this case) would be better.
  5. jas61292

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    Well then, it would seem that capefeather read my mind on this one because I, through my own special deductive methods also arrived at the conclusion that 30 is a good limit to have for VGMs. We don't have a ton we need to do, so there is absolutely no reason for us to even come close to the limits suggested by the BSR.

    As for total moves, those should also be scaled down as well. 5th gen Pokemon don't typically have nearly as large movepools as other Pokemon who have had 3 generations now to grab moves from. Add in the fact that there are few coverage types we have access to and you will really be grasping at straws if you are trying to make a large movepool that actually makes sense. The 55 moves suggested by cape is pretty much what I was thinking, though moving that up to ~60 would be fine if people really want more room. I just don't think it is necessary.
  6. srk1214

    srk1214 You are people yes ou no?
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    I think for the sake of variety in submissions limits of 60/65 and 35 are probably best, though pushing it down to 30 VGMs is doable.



    ERM... edit. I'm down to 65/34 and am having issues cutting much more. I'm sure it's doable, but not without sacrificing moves that all-but certainly would be given in game because of typing/physiology. For reference, our other grassy snake Serperior has 58 moves, and we have a whole second typing to deal with. Limiting to 60 or lower is going to kill creativity. I'd advocate 65/35 or 65/30.
  7. CiteAndPrune

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    I'm okay with 30 VGMs, and 55 is probably doable but 65 would at least be more realistic, since those not-VGMs are inserted for flavor anyway, why not let the movepoll submitters have some more freedom?
  8. vyomov

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    List of moves?

    I would recommend 35 VGMs and a total of 65 moves.
  9. Dracoyoshi8

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    I believe setting it to 65/30 is the way to go. I took a gander at Serperior, our other 5th gen grass snake, and it learns approximately 60 moves. So I figure that having the limit of 65 would keep Malaconda looking realistic while not being bloated. I also took in the factor that Malaconda is going to have a lot more "required" moves because its part Dark. Having 30 VGMs is fine considering the kind of role Malaconda is going to be filling on a team. However, I still think certain special attacks shouldn't be classified as VGMs ._.
  10. Unoriginal Name

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    I'd like to agree on 65/30 being the ideal amount. As many have said, this is similar to Serperior, but we need even more because of Dark moves like Pursuit and Spikes and RSpin and... You get the idea. I can't really say there is muchnpoint in going above 70/35ish, and that's at a max. I believe 65/30 is the ideal amount- and if you want to see why, read the posts above mine. They've covered most of the important bits.
  11. Legend13

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    I'm actually running into some problems with cutting out moves; 65/30 would be a minimum here, and a good maximum would be 70/35. Right now there are more or less 40-45 VGMs that that are allowed (type allowance in attacking moves are counted as well), which leaves quite a bit to cut out either way. The lower limit could be met, but a high amount of moves will have to be cut that way. At the most, i find that i can cut somewhere between 5 and 10 moves, which leads to the upper limit 70/35. Still, by all means, 65/30 is an excellent limit as well, provided enough moves can be cut.
  12. Basileus

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    I was thinking 65/30 was a great idea, there are only about 45 VGM moves allowed and cutting 15 isn't super hard. I only struggled with about 3 or 4 cuts. However, the big problem I face is adding on 25 non-viable moves. I feel like there are so few it almost becomes a chore to look back and forth between the "VGM move list" and a list of other possible moves. Making it a bit easier you could maybe do 35/65 or 30/60? Just my suggestion. However I feel like "finding moves is hard" is kinda a dumb argument, so 35/65 would be my primary suggestion considering the fact that some move-move and type-move advisory lists kinda takes away from the flexibility. However I could work with 30/65 if I had to.

    EDIT: So after some more tests, I noticed there are actually seven whole moves that I would like to put on the final set but cannot with 30/60. I would like to throw support behind 35/65 behind that because of it.
  13. nyttyn

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    60/30 or bust. We barely need any VGMs to pull off Malaconda's duties, and "I can't cut out any more moves from my movepool!" isn't an argument. Pokemon ingame lack moves that seem obvious (FLARE BLITZ FLAREON) all the time, you can make do without stuffing your movepool with everything that "makes sense." In addition, new pokemon usually have smaller movepools then their older bretheren, so anything before gen 5 should not be looked at for movepool size. That and in combination with the smaller then average movepools in generation 5 (even taking into consideration move tutors) as well as the small number of VGMs required lead me to believe that 60/30 is more then sufficient. In fact I'd actually argue for 55/30, but 60/30 gives submitters a bit of leeway.

    PS Serperior is an extremely poor comparison, Serperior is a starter pokemon, starter pokemon have larger then average movepools. Realistic pokemon to compare Malaconda to in terms of movepool size should probably be more like Excadrill, who has high stats and a dual typing as well, but gets by with 56 moves, which is 9 less then the 65 I've seen people throwing around.
  14. Dracoyoshi8

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    I chose Serperior because they are anatomically similar. Comparing it to Excadrill is poor because Pokemon movepools directly correlate with the design of the Pokemon, i.e. Excadrill has less moves because it has less body parts to use said moves (strong jaws, fists, a tail, etc.) Compare the two.

    Excadrill:
    Ground-type properties - Generic Ground-type moves and Rock-type moves
    Steel-type properties - Iron Defense, Metal Sound
    Claws - Slash, Crush Claw, Poison Jab, Swords Dance etc
    Stocky, Drill Body - Drill Run, Horn Drill, Rapid Spin, Submission, etc
    Helmeted Head - Iron Head, Skull Bash

    Malaconda:
    Grass-type properties - Generic Grass-type moves
    Dark-type properties - Generic Dark-type moves
    Elongated Body - Wrap, Bind, Wring Out, etc
    Strong Jaws w/ Fangs - Bite, Crunch, Roar, ThunderFang, etc
    Tail - Dragon Tail, Iron Tail, Tail Whip, etc
    Apple Lure - Follow Me, Captivate, Sweet Scent, etc
    Spikes/Spines/Thorns - Spikes, Pin Missile, Spike Cannon, etc

    Didn't include Special moves for either because they seem to follow a different pattern of distribution.

    Anatomically speaking, Malaconda should have more moves than Excadrill because its body structure allows it to use more moves. Now I'm not saying "bloat CAP5's movepool with every tail-based move possible". In order to create a realistic Pokemon, its movepool should include non-competitive physical moves that make sense according to the Pokemon's anatomy and lore. Since CAP5 has so many features (something I didn't consider when drawing it, so oversight on my part), it would be logical it would have a larger movepool. I actually think 65/30 is too SMALL considering its design, but I went with it because of Serperior's selection (which Malaconda would replace some moves, like Serperior gets Reflect but Malaconda gets Crunch, so they cancel out) and concerns of some users for having a bloated movepool.

    We are creating a Pokemon. It should look like one.
  15. srk1214

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    I mean I got down to 60/30, but I had to cut out moves like Leaf Storm and Mean Look that just feel like they'd be in Malaconda's movepool.

    Keep in mind that we're starting with a huge list of VGMs that realistically Malaconda must have:

    Show Hide
    Crunch
    Dark Pulse
    Energy Ball
    Facade
    Foul Play
    Frustration
    Giga Drain
    Grass Knot
    Hidden Power
    Knock Off
    Leaf Blade
    Nasty Plot
    Payback
    Power Whip
    Protect
    Pursuit
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Substitute
    Sucker Punch
    Synthesis
    Taunt
    Toxic


    Add in moves like Dragon Pulse/Dragon Tail/Outrage if you want to be in the Dragon egg group or Iron Tail just because it makes sense and is a move tutor and you're getting pretty close to the limit. Especially since this list doesn't even include some very competitive moves like Rapid Spin, Elemental fangs, Spikes, Paralysis moves, U-turn, etc. I mean I made it work, but only by being a move or two more restrictive than I wanted to.
  16. nyttyn

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    Yeah um DY8 that's not how it works. You can rattle off features all you want, and indeed features often contribute to the variety of a movepool, but the number of features almost never corresponds to how large the movepool is.

    In fact, let's go by your own logic with another multifeatured pokemon - Scoliopede.

    Claws? Check.
    Stubby arms? Check
    Bug type qualities? Check.
    Poison type qualities? Check.
    Elongated body? Check.
    Tail? Check.
    Horns? Check.
    Armored body? Check.

    51 moves.

    Your logic is not only incorrect from a factual standpoint, its also incorrect from a mechanical standpoint.

    Edit: @srk1214 Then the movepool limits are doing their job. If you want to be in the Dragon egg group and include those three moves, fine. If you want Iron Tail because it "makes sense," fine. Do so within a reasonable limit. The movepool limits are there to keep you from going absolutely hog wild and including everything that "makes sense." We should not give Malaconda an unrealistically large movepool because you or anyone else couldn't keep your desires in check and had to give Malaconda everything that "makes sense."

    Edit Edit: That "required" move list you posted is a perfect example of how you all are going absolutely overboard with your desires. Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, and Grass Knot are all moves that are not by any stretch of the imagination "Required." In fact, doing just some casual checking, there are numerous pokemon who are Dark or Grass type who lack those moves, and Malaconda's stats naturally lean towards absolutely none of them.
  17. Vann Accessible

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    I'll throw my support behind 65/30. There's quite a bit of redundant fluff in the allowed moves such as the gazillion different anti-set up move options and some just plain unnecessary ones.

    I'd like to see people be selective in their movepools.

    Edit: While Malaconda doesn't HAVE to have Giga Drain/Energy Ball/Grass Knot and Dark Pulse, but I would argue these shouldn't be counted towards the VGM limit, given Malaconda's abysmal base special attack stat.
  18. alexwolf

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    Some moves on srk's ''must list'' moves are not must at all btw, such as Nasty Plot and Leaf Blade, as there are plenty of Grass and Dark types without those moves.

    I agree with 60/30 or even 65/30 but not more. As Vann Accessible said i want too to see people being selective with their movepools and not just throwing on everything that ''makes sense''. Also Malacona's role is very specific and focused so there is no reason to allow more moves.
  19. DetroitLolcat

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    65/30 makes sense here. I really can't say anything that hasn't been said already, but I'll throw in that 30 VGMs are more than enough to get the job done. Remember, most of Malaconda's four moveslots will be rather formulaic, as just about every set will need two STAB options. Most sets will also require a recovery option such as Rest, Synthesis, etc. From there, we're really only dealing with one "filler" option, be it Rapid Spin, U-Turn, Ice Fang, Spikes, or any of the other options we've given it. Except for the ultra-niche sets some Malaconda users will inevitably run, Malaconda will not commonly use that many common moves. 30 VGMs is more than enough, and we can have some flavor fun with 65 total.
  20. Korski

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    Is there a competitive reason for deviating from the chart? 30 VGMs is a big jump down from 40 (and 65 total moves is a big jump down from 85), so unless there is more that needs to be done in terms of compensating for Harvest, this thread looks more like a PRC thing regarding our BSR/Movepool Limits ratio than a reflection on the perceived strength of the CAP itself. For instance, the Serperior argument is solely flavor-based, not to mention how crappy small Serperior's movepool is to begin with. The lowering of the non-VGM movepool is also flavor-based, as those extra moves don't even contribute much if anything to the CAP's functionality. I can certainly handle the limits as proposed, but for a piece of art that has so much personality that can be expressed through movepool choices, and with a legitimately low BSR, and after carefully disallowing all moves that would interfere with our counters or distract from the concept, I can't see any competitive reasons to further limit movepool designers.

    I understand the desire to steer clear of bloated movepools, especially after Aurumoth, but in this case I think we have been careful enough thus far to have a little fun with them. There are certainly examples of Pokemon with low BSRs and 80 total moves; that's why the chart exists to begin with. IMO the total move count won't do anything negative for the CAP, and the VGMs still available are pro-concept enough to pick and choose more than just five or six of. Feel free to disagree with that, but in terms of changing the official movepool limits based on how many generations a Poke needs to be around for to pick up X number of moves, we should do a PR thread about it after CAP5.

    Here I don't see anything wrong with 85 total moves and 40 VGMs, quite honestly, but I don't expect those limits to appeal to everyone. Still, I would be interested to hear what the competitive arguments are for deviating from the norm in this particular case.
  21. Dracoyoshi8

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    Scolipede is a perfect example of how Pokemon's physiology affects movepool. It gets moves like Defense Curl and Rollout because they support the Pokemon's ability to curl into a ball. Scolipede's stubby arms are an explanation why it DOESN'T get moves like Slash. And Scolipede doesn't have "horns"; Megahorn appears to be solely a competitive addition to the movepool by game designers. Scolipede has less moves because its prevolution has less moves as well, due to Venipede's diminished combative ability as an "early game Bug". Pokemon get moves according to their design; Pokemon with fists get elemental punches, Pokemon with tails get Iron Tail, Pokemon with strong jaws get Crunch, Pokemon that can curl into balls get Defense Curl. I'm not saying give Malaconda should get every fang-based move in existence. I'm saying that limiting the size of its movepool will prevent us from giving it "obvious" moves that make Malaconda look realistic and, as such, we won't take flack for "lol you made a Grass-type that doesn't learn Energy Ball?"

    I agree with 30 VGMs as a limit, but 65 at minimum seems to be the most balanced between keeping it Pokemon-like and avoiding CAP's tendencies to bloat movepools. I agree with what Korski says as well.
  22. dwarfstar

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    I'm with srk on this one - 65/35 seems ideal to me. If we could discount a few of the special moves due to the abysmal SpA, then 65/30 would be a lot more doable. While a few of the moves he mentioned are not "required" by typing, there's serious precedent built up for most of them, and I'm in favor of following that precedent.
    Echoing Korski's request for competitive reasoning on the movepool limits. I realize this may be due to my lack of in-depth experience with the CAP project, but it seems like we're all a bit gun-shy after Aurumoth.
  23. Thunderbolta

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    I see no reason to deviate from the chart, honestly. As long as we don't pick a ridiculously overpowered movepool then there's no harm in the 40/85 limit. Malaconda has a lot of details, so giving it a decent non-VGM limit (30/75 maybe) might give movepool designers some freedom. And you have to remember, it's a limit - no-one would have to fill all of those slots.
  24. capefeather

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    Well, my first post was intended as an alternative starting point to the typical limits. I wasn't saying at the outset that we absolutely must go with my suggestion. I was just explaining why I thought that 30 was something to consider. To be a bit more detailed, though, consider that, other than the STABs (which I guess can add up to 2-6 depending on what submitters think are important), there are a few specific moves that were popular in discussion and argued as particularly important to Malaconda:

    Electric move (e.g. Thunder Fang)
    (P)Hazing move (e.g. Haze, Roar, Dragon Tail)
    Aromatherapy / Heal Bell
    Baton Pass / U-turn
    Rapid Spin

    That's 5 VGMs. Then there are the controversial moves:

    Ice Fang
    Spikes
    Glare / Stun Spore (it's still weird to me that the arguably worst paralysis move was disallowed)

    I wouldn't say that Spikes or paralysis moves had a convincing argument for being really important, but Ice Fang certainly did for some of its supporters. So I think that, ideally, this would end up contributing at most 1 VGM to a movepool, maybe 2.

    So you have about 13 VGMs max that are probably desirable for competitive reasons. A lot of these moves have high distribution. A size of 17+ VGM slots is enough for the most obvious VGMs plus a few more that one might squeeze in. The goal for me is for people to think about whether all the moves they thought of are actually important for competitive or flavour reasons, because often they're not. If people are cutting moves, but not cutting things that they consider really important, then as I see it, the limits are doing the right thing. At the same time, there's always some worry that some people might eschew strong flavour moves like Dark Pulse for fitting in a bunch of random competitive moves, but in general, I think it should illustrate that some moves are not as "obvious" as people might think they are. srk's list, for example, is demonstrably excessive for a required move list.
  25. srk1214

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    It really isn't. Look at what moves Gen V grass and dark mons learn and you'll find that every move on my list is overwhelmingly expected of Malaconda (or has been expressly designated as desirable by the CAPmunity like Power Whip or Synthesis)
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