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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Apr 5, 2013.

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  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    This is not true. Sun is treated as an entity because all sun teams have something very important in common, Ninetales. For example some types of teams (weatherless) have troubles dealing with sun offense as it is. Imagine improving another sun playstyle to the point that they will have to account for it too. It will become almost impossible for weatherless teams to prepare against sun. Not sun offense or sun stall, but sun as a whole. It's the same concept as with the versatility of a single Pokemon really. It doesn't matter that sun teams can't be both offense and stall, what matters is that their versatility could make them very difficult to deal with and even possibly broken.

    This doesn't hold true here. The default for a Pokemon we are creating is to not have any move. We are selecting the moves that it should have based on competitive and flavor reasoning. If someone wants a move to be on Malaconda's movepool, however small the effect of that move will be, he must give some kind of reasoning, as if the move is useless (competitively and for flavor) the move shouldn't be in the CAP's movepool. If what you said was true, then every CAP we made would have generally good moves such as Spikes, and many other moves that wouldn't be bad on any Pokemon.
  2. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs

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    In the context of my questioning at the beginning of the conversation, it was applicable. As I explained earlier, we had many moves such as Dragon Tail and Heal Bell that looked less based on the concept of a Sunmon and more based on support in general, and yet there was opposition towards Spikes. Obviously there was some reason why Spikes was "guilty" while these other support moves were "innocent." That's why I asked what the hubbub was about, and thus I got an answer.

    I get your point, but it was honestly just a throwaway line I used to give an idea of what my point was. I don't literally mean that all moves should be included unless they're specifically anti-concept, but in the context of the support moves in question, it is relevant.
  3. Unoriginal Name

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    We're not buffing Ninetales here (not directly, at least). We're making a new CAP. I understand your "harder to prepare" argument; however, in a metagame that has to adapt to Malaconda regardless, teams will probably have a check added (not like they haven't already; Scizor, Heatran and Breloom, among other threats, are common in the current meta amomg prepared players, and most teams have a Fire or Bug type nowadays) and its not like making it another viable user of Spikes will reform the threat list. "Oh, it has Spikes. I guess I'll just use Heatran a little more, and keep my spinner alive a little longer." Spikes won't break a mon (Deo-D is a different story, and we don't have quite the stats he does regardless). Most prepared teams have a spinner and a Bug type and/or Fire type move, which can easily switch in to Malaconda: if they are threatened by Mal' and hopefully aren't Starmie or Tentacruel, they'll start carrying HP Bug or maybe Fire to deal with him.

    Basically, Malaconda still has the same checks, and with the 4MSS he has, I doubt even stall teams will see much usage. Rapid Spin, Grass and/or Dark Stab, U-Turn, Dragon Tail, Sucker Punch... You get the idea. Offensive teams will see very little usage, stalls won't see too much (probably ~50%, but that's just a guess) and Malaconda will still have the same threats; it'll just encourage players to carry a Spinner more, and, save for Starmie and Cruel, which are different cases as Mal' checks them, most spinners work outside of weather very well, and, as long as it doesn't encourage Rain use in any way, it's still on concept for Mal'.

    Whew, I went on a tangent there. I'll just restate: this doesn't mean Spikes is all good. Spikes is an extra bonus to Mal', which would indeed work out of Sun, albiet not as well. However, Rain has a decent Spinner/Hazard setter as it is, with a great ability that also works in Cruel's weather. Spikes has its advantages and disadvantages; really, I see no reason for me to argue on this further. I'd imagine this'll be put in Contraversial and have a vote held on it; truly, I'm neutral, and, unlike most people seem to be like here, I don't think Spikes will make or break Malaconda. I rest my case.
  4. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    The worry (or my worry) is that it very much makes it exceptionally difficult to handle sun. Lets recap here, sunlight is the ONLY weather on the table, where you can run its speed boosting ability along side it (for reference im talking Cloro here) AND get a STAB boost for some of your abusers. This is already, pretty darn massive, but sunlight is held back by its sub standard abuser, SR weakness, and lack of pivots. Malaconda changes all of this, by giving sunlight an awesome spinner AND making it an excelelnt pivot. Its also happens to check most of the common sun problems (Sun vs Rain is now less of a skill matchup).

    Looking at this, its already boosting sun up to the level of Sand and perhapes sunlight. Its given sunlight its own "Ferrothorn" - a bulky pivot that happens to have reliable recovery. What people are pushing for now is adding Spikes on top of this, and I feel that it goes too far as suddenly, you jack up the difficulty of beating sunlight, its now not enough to simply chuck on a Latios and win, now you seriosuly need to devolop ways of defeating Malaconda, as well as the sun team. On top of this, you need to worry about Spikes crippling your Tyranitar, or your Hippowdon, sunlight already has Dugtrio for Stealth Rock, imagine taking damage from a layer of Spikes and Stealth rock as well!

    Its not like Sun is easily spinable eaither, you cannot spin on Malaconda, its OHKOing Starmie, and Tentacruel loses (also Dugtrio can take it out when weakened) 1v1. Venusaur outspeeds Starmie, and gets a free set up on Tentacruel that lack Ice Beam (even then its got Giga Drain), Dugtrio can and will trap those spinners when they are low enough, heck, Tobes proved you can run fucking Chandelure on your sun team and presto! You have a spinblocker! Thoughout all of this remember, you have a Spiker, with massive bulk, with a 100% recovery move. Deoxys-D doesn't have this, Forretress doesn't have this, nor do Skarmory or Ferrothorn. All of the above can and do set up Spikes over the course of a match with ease, (Yes even in a spinner dominated metagame). The moment you add Malaconda into the mix, its very difficult to stop it setting up, then spinning and not dying, and then stopping it from setting up even more, bearing in mind it has flat out amazing bulk AND awesome recovery. Its a tough ask.

    To be clear here, I am not for one single second, claiming that Spikes on Malaconda is 'broken", because its not really. The issue I have, is that giving Sun an amazing pivot such as Malaconda, with amazing recovery, with an already amazing support movepool, a CAP designed to counter the biggest problems to sunlight in this metagame, and you want to give it Spikes on top of this, which makes sunlight even more difficult to stop. Suddenly you have Politoed lose 1v1, you have Tyranitar sorta lose (PW does way 2 much PLUS if it ever gets a kill its Dug Bait), so you have um, Hippowdon I guess which is Spike fodder AND doesn't like Power Whip (or Toxic which it has) anyway. Furthermore, a case could potentially be made that Spikes hampers out concept, since suddenly, you are not just affecting the usage of water types, and dragons, suddenly your heavily affecting the usage of grounded pokemon, which DO drop when spikers such as this are popular, since players want to minimise the damge they take from switching. We are already targeting Most water / dragon / Steel (since we are increasing the usage of sun, I fully expect SOME steels to drop in usage) types, are we expanding this to most of the OU viable pokemon that are hit by spikes as well? (Worth noting that currently most of Malaconda's best checks and counters are hit by Spikes as well, giving it the chance to easily outlast them).

    Sorry for the tl;dr I was in a rush
  5. srk1214

    srk1214 Epke Motherf**in Zonderland
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    Malaconda is not some inherently amazing pivot. Providing free switches for Scizor is scary. Sure Sun has things that can deal with U-turn. But Superpower is a thing too. Heatran doesn't like that. I think we need to remember that if the opponent has Scizor, which a shitload of teams do, Malaconda's very presence loses momentum (assuming you don't predict a switch-in and U-turn/Dragon Tail - for negligible damage)

    Having the capacity to at least do something useful as Scizor potentially switches in, such as Spikes, is vital for the Malaconda user to not just be totally owned by the Scizor switch-in. Unless Sun is gonna start running Skarmory or Gliscor or something else that just doesn't mind Scizor.

    Same can be said for Heatran/Lucario/Hydreigon/etc switchins, though Scizor is the more immediately threatening to Sun between CB U-turn and Superpower.
  6. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    So under your logic, Celebi is a really shit pivot because its weak to Scizor? (Remember, most defensive Pivot Celebi lack HP Fire as its usually (Grass STAB / Recover / Perish / Baton Pass or U-Turn).

    Also I don't like your momentum argument, we are not building a momentum pokemon, Malaconda doesn't need to force itself into getting 100% momentium gainst EVERYTHING, because that just fucking breaks it. Its what Deoxys-D did (you couldn't get momentum from it, it would set up hazards and die, while preventing set up giving that player momentum) and apparently its what you also want. Newsflash; Defensive pokemon lose momentum, look at fucking Ferrothorn, look at Blissey, look at Skarmory. They all have pokemon they lose to, they all have pokemon they have to switch out of, risking the loss of mometium, Sure, none of them are Scizor weak (you can add Celebi to the list of defensive mons if you like if you think its an issue) but the point remains. Giving it Spikes just seems to be "help I don't like Scizor U-Turning" and I guess it stops that, the trouble is, since Scizor is sorta refered too as the counter to CAP 5, giving CAP 5 Spikes pretty much means Scizor isn't really doing a great job in countering it, when its forced to U-Turn, and takes Spikes damage switching in. At least Heatran can run a damn balloon to beat Skarmory (and you can actually spin on Skarmory with spinners), Scizor doesn't have a hope.

    So basically this is my 4th point regarding the Spikes debate (earlier post covered most of them), do we still want to be "countered" by Scizor (something id argue isn't a problem when I can chuck in a Volcarona and laugh), because ATM Spikes hampers Scizor a LOT at this, as well as having issues that I outlined in my previous post.
  7. srk1214

    srk1214 Epke Motherf**in Zonderland
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    Celebi is a different case since it actually outspeeds Scizor. It can at least do SOMETHING to Scizor, even if it's not HP Fire, it might be U-turn or maybe a LO Earth Power.

    Malaconda without Spikes is total bait to the #1 Pokemon in OU. And it's usage will only go up in the playtest. Total bait that is, unless it runs U-turn, right? That's great. U-turn is a fantastic option on predicted Scizor switch-ins... for OFFENSIVE teams. For more balanced or even stallish teams, Spikes is the superior option. Spikes is an inferior option for the offensive teams. It's just offering an option for a different playstyle.


    EDIT:

    Since when is standard bulky pivot Celebi being used on a Sun team? That Celebi is being used on a team that can handle CB Scizor. Standard Sun can't afford to switch around and take hazard damage and get U-turned on. Add in the fact that Heatran is no longer a safe switchin since Scizor might well Superpower since Malaconda is weak to that too and you've got a problem. Celebi has absolutely no relevance to anything here.
  8. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    When has spikes EVER been an inferior option for offensive teams? If you think the vast majority of sun teams would choose U-Turn over Spikes you are dead wrong (its not like CAP 5 is Pursut weak so U-Turn isn't even essential). On a standard sun team, knowing that im using Duggy, Ninetales, Malaconda, Vensaur and potentially something like Heatran, im running pretty standard Bulky Offensive or "balance". This usually is, the standard sun team layout (obv currently without Malaconda), and Spikes works fucking perfectly, since it directly a) means Scizor no longer counters you and b) means that your Venusaur has potenially something like 80% less checks and c) means you win the weather war like, so fucking easily.

    Yea ok, even tho I gave you the standard bulky pivot Celebi, you went and picked a sweeper Celebi set -_-. Defensive pivot Celebi does not run LO or fucking Earth Power, it runs the 4 moves I mentioned above. Besides, its not like Malaconda has NOTHING to hit Scizor, HP Fire is always there if your desperate (if your using sun you shouldn't be).

    All I see in your argument is "I don't want us to be countered by Scizor", and that's terrible logic for picking Spikes, because it directly impacts on Malaconda's - and a Sun teams - counters. If you were that worried about Scizor, you could have pushed harder for FF or something. Spikes doesn't just hit Scizor, it hits every single grounded pokemon that might try and counter Malaconda. Suddenly, your Lucario doesn't look that crash hot switching into a field of Spikes, especially since its running LO, Scizors forced to U-Turn out every single time it switches in, so it doesn't last long, Breloom is risky enough as it is with Ice Fang so its not keen on switching in, etc etc. Its not just Scizor's usage your affecting, its loads of other pokemon, while making it 300% harder to check and counter Malaconda, let along sun teams.
  9. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

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    About Spikes

    I think something a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that we are on the verge of introducing the greatest spinner ever into the metagame. Hazards should be less of a concern than ever before, and if your opponents malaconda Uses spikes, your own malaconda can spin them away with ease. Malaconda's own prominence in the metagame will discourage rampant use of spike variants.

    That leaves the following question: why give malaconda spikes at all. Well, the reason i would like spikes on mala is because it allows malaconda to abuse forced switches. As of right now, assuming we dont get paralysis, all we can really do on forced switches is spin. Once hazards are gone, we cant really do anything to really support our team. Its not like our Stabs are super threatening; after all, steels, the most common type in the game, outright wall our STABs. The only meaningful way we could provide team support after clearing the field of hazards would be switching out, and I would prefer to take advantage of the switches malaconda forces a bit more meaningfully. Spikes does provide that option, and that is why i support it.

    Also, in exchange for spikes, our team will have to cover one of the threats we would usually handle. Imo, malaconda's ideal set is probably something like this:grass stab/ dark stab/ recovery/ rapid spin. To accomodate spikes, i would guess either the dark stab option, which means you would have to sacrifice a teamslot just to handle the respective threats.
  10. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    The trouble is, the " Spikes Malaconda is countered by Malaconda" argument doesn't really work when you are forced to run a malaconda just to spin on it. Remember, Malaconda is first and foremost, a sun mon, so if you have to run Sunlight in order to beat sunlight, then you have broken sunlight.
  11. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked

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    @ginganinja

    I think its silly to assume that the "perfect spinner will only be used only on sun teams. Most players who need a spinner on their team will use malaconda. Thus, the argument does work fairly well. I expect an el farol bar equilibrium will develop, where spikes malaconda will become exponentially less effective as the set becomes more common. Spikes will be useful given proper team support, but never a dominant strategy

    EDIT: I will elaborate on this point more in a few hours. Have Calc homework hat needs doing
  12. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    What your talking about is over-centralisation. If the only spinner that can spin on Malaconda is Malaconda itself, then we have a problem. Its the sort of thing we ban for lol.

    Sure, Malaconda will be used on non sun teams, but to get its true potentially (ie the fully recovery), it needs to be on sunlight, and hence thats why I think the majority of teams that use Malaconda will be sun teams. This in turn, goes back to my earlier point about heavily affecting the nature of sun as to whether its would then be broken or not.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    The bolded sentence is false. Malaconda has a ton of options to do on forced switches, so let me mention them once again: Spin, grab momentum and bring dangerous Pokemon in (U-turn), heal status from the team (Heal Bell), Pursuit trap all the Pokemon that you completely wall, and rack entry hazards damage with D-Tail/Whirwlind. Even if Malaconda had only Rapid Spin and U-turn this would be already enough, as if you take a look at Forretress, the only reason that sun teams use it is for rapid spin and the ability to keep momentum, as otherwise it is a piece of garbage (unlike Malaconda). Spin whenever hazards are up, and get momentum with U-turn whenever hazards aren't up, all that while walling some of the biggest threats for sun teams. So even though Rapid Spin and U-turn are enough for Malaconda to do her job, as a bonus it also gets phazing moves, Pursuit, and Heal Bell. And now you want Spikes for it, claiming that it can't take advantage of the switches she forces? Stop being greedy people, and focus on the actual role that we want Malaconda to play. We are building a Pokemon with a very focused role that aims to change the balance of weather wars in OU, and this balance is very fucking frail. We should only give to the CAP what it wants to succeed in this role, and not one thing more, otherwise we risk screwing up the gentle balance of weathers and potentially breaking sun. Stop with the ''oh this move is good let's give it to the CAP'' mindset, we are not building your usual all around good Pokemon.
  14. Basileus

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    Wow, I am suprised at the decision to disallow speed boosters and allow baton pass. Originally I thought that speed boosting moves should be allowed or disallowed depending on if baton pass was allowed or disallowed. Prmarily to allow speed boosts if baton pass was banned. I was expecting for one of them to be disallowed and the other to be allowed, but I was also expecting that speed boosting moves were to be allowed, not baton pass considering how it is outclassed by U-turn with malaconda now lacking speed moves. Being a defensive pivot, I was almost sure that baton pass w/o stat boosting moves will cause it to be overlooked. I am very suprised. Anyway, this is all leading to para moves and how now that they are the only way malaconda is going to get speed advantages over his opponents. Mala is so compatible with a bunch of 'mons with sub-par speed, and it would benifit the entire team to be a bit faster. So I would definetly like to see the allowance of all paralysis moves.

    As for spikes, I don't think that it is actually a big deal, and that the addition of spikes to the move pool wont make any drastic change to the overall outcome of this CAP. Iguess you can allow it because it would be nice to see hazards on sun, even though spikes might be one of the worst. However I wouldn't care if it was disallowed either I guess is what I am trying to say. Also, I would like to see a spinner on sun even though I don't think malaconda was designed to be a spinner, and at this point it wouldn't do him a lot of good, but spin on sun to get rid of stealth rocked would be super fun! Especially on a defensive pivot assuming you opponent has no ghosts on their team.

    Sorry for not bolding and stuff, it is harder to do so when sending this from my phone and I am in a rush, so I guess you will just have to read all of my post this time. Sorry.

    PS. I am only going by what is still up for grabs when it comes to moves, I kind of disregarded what others say and just focused on the main issues at hand. If I went off topic and we were talking about something else then I apologize.
  15. CiteAndPrune

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    I don't have much to add beyond what the others have said already.

    But, for what it's worth, I support allowing both Spikes and Glare / Stun Spore (but not Thunder Wave).

    Yes, they'll make Malaconda a better Pokemon, and yes, paralysis / hazard damage can hurt the Pokemon we have established are our counters.

    Let it do that. It's fine. Malaconda won't break sun as you fear it would. Sun is bound to become more popular for this playtest and Malaconda itself is threatened by many common sun team members, while other teams are going to adjust around it.

    Don't blow that out of proportion like adding one move to one Pokemon is going to break an entire playstyle. We're talking paralysis and Spikes here, not V-Create and Quiver Dance, okay?

    I would provide some real substantial reasoning instead, but it's all been said already and the argument keeps going on. What I keep hearing here is more of 'it's too much' vs 'it won't even be used' dressed in rhethoric that makes it sound important like decisive evidence.

    Really, I think at this point it's best if both Spikes and Glare / Stun Spore end up as controversial moves and we hold a vote for them - and even if they're allowed, it'll be up to movepoll submitters to use them or not. Movepoll Limits can make members choose what to exclude from other allowed options if they want Malaconda to have those two.

    Jas, I'd be fine with Stun Spore still, but while Glare is clearly superior, it is by no means overpowered. Your concern with it being voted allowed based on community's appreciation of the flavor is... I may be wrong here, but I really hope it's not as likely to happen as you fear. It's just one poll in the big process.
  16. capefeather

    capefeather no shit
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    I've thought a lot about what to do with the paralysis moves. There are concerns of flavour bias on Glare, but I don't really see a competitive reason to put only Stun Spore up to a vote. Stun Spore does have some advantages over Thunder Wave. For instance, Landorus Therian is a significantly safer switch into Thunder Wave Malaconda than Stun Spore Malaconda. (Yes, I'm aware of Ice Fang, but I don't think it OHKOes, it's not guaranteed on movepools anyway, and the point actually still stands.) If I personally had to choose the better move, I'd choose Stun Spore, even given the accuracy hit. My other worry is that flavour bias goes both ways. There could be bias against Stun Spore and Thunder Wave due to flavour. While I know that some people like the notion of the conservative bias being the lesser evil, I ultimately don't think that it's a good idea to make a decision based on trying to manipulate potential voter bias.

    So what I'm thinking is that all three paralysis moves should be voted on individually (alongside Spikes). This isn't because of a joke suggestion on IRC yesterday (though I guess it's an amusing side effect) but because these paralysis moves all have distinct advantages and disadvantages. I guess one could argue that Glare is a combination of Thunder Wave and Stun Spore and thus should be disallowed, but at the same time, I don't see a reason to leave it out of the vote, at least one that I haven't addressed. I'll give jas an opportunity to post his thoughts about this before closing.
  17. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Well, I personally am not a fan of paralysis moves, and I would have leaned towards disallowing myself, but I cannot deny that they are controversial, so a vote does seem fair. I have little doubt myself as to what the results may be, but I will leave it up to the community to decide. I just want to echo my first post once more to remind people that flavor reasoning in a competitive stage such as this is completely unacceptable. If you find yourself wanting Glare but not wanting the others, you better have a damn good reason for it.

    Anyways, as far as everything else, I think capefeather covered everything very well, and I don't really have anything else to add on.
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