CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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dwarfstar

mindless philosopher
Nyktos, Base Speed, and alexwolf said everything I was thinking and more about Rapid Spin; I won't bother rehashing their arguments. Allow Rapid Spin.
I'm inclined to disallow Stealth Rock; I'm not certain about Spikes and Toxic Spikes yet.

On the topic of field effects:
Allow Sunny Day. Literally every Grass-type so far has been able to learn the move, and it works with the concept.
Disallow Rain Dance. I don't understand how giving Malaconda Rain Dance will magically make it attractive to rain teams, since nearly everything it does can be done better by Pokemon better suited to rain. I just don't see the point in allowing the move in general.
Disallow Trick Room. Trick Room is pretty counterproductive for sun, since these teams rely predominantly on fast, powerful threats. As such, the only utility it would have for Malaconda would be on non-sun teams. Granted, Reuniclus does a better job at this, but nothing good can come from allowing the move.
I really don't see anything inherently good or bad in the existence of Gravity in the movepool, so I'll leave this to the rest of you to hash out.

On the topic of move limiters:
Allow Taunt. It just stops setup, rather than actually enabling Malaconda to beat its counters.
I don't see any point in letting the trapping moves in, but I'll reserve judgment until I see whether Perish Song is allowed.
Disallow Disable. The possibility that Malaconda will be able to stall out counters who can't OHKO it with Disable is too big a risk for us to take.

Torment deserves a section all its own IMO; it's a strange and underrated technique. Here are my thoughts on the matter.
Very few specially-based Pokemon (and not all physical Pokemon, even) carry multiple moves that do much to Malaconda, which means Torment basically guarantees it a free turn (either through forcing a switch or making the opponent use a largely ineffectual move). This free turn becomes more or less threatening depends on what else is allowed in Malaconda's movepool. Having an extra turn for Power Whip or Crunch is unlikely to be game-breaking, given that the other notable Torment user, Heatran, does more on average with its own attacks and isn't considered broken (despite how annoying it is to play against), so let's look at status/support moves. A free Rapid Spin isn't immediately threatening, but that kind of support is invaluable for the rest of the team. Now, I'm inclined to allow Torment in a vacuum with just those options there, as I've observed what I believe to be too much skittishness about what we allow for Malaconda in the wake of Aurumoth. A semi-free turn to Glare, on the other hand, would likely be too big an advantage for Malaconda; I'm not certain whether a free Substitute turn is or not. I'm thinking we should allow Torment only if Glare is disallowed.

That being said, I'm in favor of allowing Glare and the other paralysis moves. Paralysis doesn't do much for Malaconda outside of deterring setup from opposing Pokemon, since its most important counters beat it 1v1 even with the Speed drop.
Sleep-inducing moves should be disallowed. While the counters wouldn't necessarily fall to Malaconda this way, the fact that they can't attack at all for however long they're asleep leaves said threats as sitting targets for the rest of the team, as opposed to simply making it more difficult for them to fight off your team's onslaught like paralysis would.



More to come later.
 
Wish has become a lot like the sun recovery moves, except the opposite. Wish had some level of support before, but it appears that that has since disappeared. Sleep moves are not likely to get any form of serious support, either, though I'm not sure if Yawn should necessarily be lumped in with them. Although I still don't really think it matters, I have disallowed every field move except Sunny Day. As for the hazards, Spikes and Rapid Spin are allowed, while Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock are not, due to their relative utility on and against sun teams. Block / Mean Look / Spider Web are allowed (again, they're probably barely competitive). Encore and Taunt are allowed, and Disable is disallowed because of its effects on prospective checks that often have only one move to really beat Malaconda with.

Baton Pass has had kind of a turnaround, and I can agree with the notion that Baton Pass's potential for abuse is probably overblown. I'll still leave it up for a while longer, though.

I've put the rest of the moves up. Trick is, to me, the biggest one by far. I'd also like the matter of paralysis and Speed made a bit clearer because there seems to be disagreement but... The thread is also slowing down, so I'll wrap it up soon if I feel the need.
 

ginganinja

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Lets talk about hazards.

If you look at the list of OU Pokemon who learn Spikes (Cloyster, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory) you'll notice all of them except Cloyster have a Fire weakness, making them less than ideal in Sun.
Your forgetting Deoxys-D, which (when I last chatted to birkal) is technically allowed (iirc) since we started this CAP in a Deoxys-D metagame. I should also point out that Forretress works perfectly fine in sunlight so idk what were were saying.

In regards to spikes, I don't really know why we need it, it doesn't really support the concept, and I really don't like the idea of having a CAP that makes it redic easy to set up Spikes. We banned Deoxys-D for it (granted there were other reasons for this) and CAP 5 is potentially even harder to deal with since it has the moveslots to pull off an instant recovery move, thus making it an utter bitch to stop it setting up spikes. In addition, its exceptionally hard to Magic Bounce it, when its Dark STAB destroys them, and due to it being specifically crafted to handle rain, the two best spinners in the game also struggle to handle CAP 5 (Forre being the next common but thats fodder for a LOT of shit on a sun team). I don't see many positives to CAP 5 getting sunlight (other than "hey sun would like a spiker" and a lot of negatives which makes me inclined to think Spikes would be bad for it.

IDK id like more discussion on it.
 
Hmm, this talk is still going on? Okay, let's see what I can address then...


In regards to the Speed vs Paralysis support issue, there's a fundamental difference between these moves that nobody else has brought up yet. Boosting moves push Malaconda towards sticking around on the field and being a sweeper, whereas paralysis is a one-off speed cut that sticks to the target regardless of switching, unless its status is cured.

It lets Malaconda do something to setup sweepers and simply dangerous switch ins other than U-Turn/switch out in fear of them, and it accomplishes this without us having had to give it unnecessarily wide offensive coverage. Grass/Dark STAB without boosting moves isn't going to sweep teams and in the interest of keeping Malaconda's coverage minimal, it needs other tools to do something against its checks and counters.

It's worth noting that particularly against Scizor, unless Malaconda throws the paralysis move on the switch and U-Turns away, Scizor's own Bug STAB will likely OHKO it regardless of EVs due to a x4 weakness. Without a paralysis move, Malaconda only survives if it Subs up on the switch, and can do nothing much but a slow U-Turn to an ally as Scizor breaks the sub and also retreats (or worse, sets up Swords Dance in its face).

Disallow Speed-bosting moves. Allow paralysis moves.


forestflamerunner's argument about Baton Pass is what I've had doubts about, myself. If Malaconda gets no boosting moves then it needs Baton Pass, Substitute to get into Pinch berry range, Taunt to stop phazing and/or rival setup, and has one slot left. What would you carry, a single attacking move? Setup bait for several threats it can't really allow:
- You pick Grass STAB then Dragonite, the Latis and Volcarona will have a free switch.
- You pick Dark STAB then Lucario, Terrakion, Keldeo and even Tyranitar feel invited.
- Breeloom, Toxicroak, Scizor, Heatran and Hydreigon can switch in regardless of your STAB move.
- If you run Dragon Tail as the sole move, any Sub variant will emerge on top. If you run Roar, you'll get phazed/Taunted first. Politoed can just Encore your sub without breaking it, then do whatever, even cast Perish Song to put you on a timer, while its Rain reduces the chances of Harvest reactivating the berry you wanted to abuse.

.... in fact, Scizor can Bullet Punch its way through the Baton Passer, breaking every Sub and scoring a priority KO before Malaconda can Pass anything.

Also keep in mind that Malaconda forgoes its recovery options when running a stat-boosting pinch berry. You're giving up all of its bulk, wasting it away on Substitutes, just to get into pinch berry range, and you're not gonna be healing anytime soon.

In light of all that, as long as Malaconda gets no boosting moves, all it can Pass would be bulky Substitutes to a teammate, and Pinch berries only if you get a lucky opening. But to stall and amass multiple boosts? You're putting all your eggs in one basket trying to make Malaconda a dedicated passer. In short, it's not going to break CAP5, so I don't see why it should be disallowed.

Allow Baton Pass.

Yawn without trapping moves is essentially phazing, not a sleep move. In this case I'm inclined to allow Yawn.

Knock Off is really small utility, so no harm in letting Malaconda have it. Allow Knock Off.

Everything else beyond that, and specifically Trick (and I've changed my mind on Torment) is distracting and doesn't help us fulfill the concept better, so Disallow the remaining support moves.

@
Vann Accessible: How about we just disallow Swagger itself specifically then? It can't run the abuse set, it won't boost the enemy's ATK to strengthen Foul Play, its Substitutes will run out of PP even if its HP stays high, and its unboosted offenses can be walled then. A lot more manageable if you ask me.
 
As a phazing move, Yawn has a different application to any of the others. It's all well and good phazing out an opponent with Roar or Dragon Tail and bringing in a random opponent, but Yawn + U-Turn/Baton Pass allows a switch to a counter on the same turn the opponent is forced to switch. I can see this being excellent for sun's momentum. I'm undecided as to whether this should be allowed or not; just food for thought at this stage.

Regarding paralysis moves one last time... One of the reasons I think Sun struggles is that Chlorophyll sweepers struggle to make an impression when sun isn't up. Venusaur is a prime example who needs the speed boost to be competitive. Moves such as Glare allow Venusaur to be more competitive outside of its ideal weather, making the sun team generally better. Paralysis is beneficial because of the pseudo speed boost it gives team mates, unlike speed boosting moves that only benefit Malaconda (or one team mate if Baton Passed) who doesn't need/benefit from the increased speed that much. So allow Glare, disallow speed boosting moves.

I don't have a lot to say on any of the other moves. Trick/Switcheroo have occasional utility, but they won't be fitting on a moveset "just in case" anytime soon. Knock Off also has theoretical benefits, but again it probably won't fit on any move sets, so I don't really mind.

EDIT: Ginga makes a good point regarding Spikes and Magic Bounce users, something I neglected to consider when supporting Spikes. I'm not so sure that I fully support Spikes now, even though I continue to believe sun would benefit from a reliable spiker.
 
So I did some thinking today. You may recall me saying earlier that Glare on Malaconda was going to be my baby. Well, it breaks my heart to say it, but we need to disallow paralysis on Malaconda. Glare will make Malaconda more broken than if it had gotten Will O Wisp.

Earlier I was defending paralysis saying Malaconda's counters are not really harmed by Paralysis, which is still true for some of them. Stunning Scizor, Breloom, or Conkledurr doesn't really ruin any of them, as none of them rely on their speed necessarily. However, paralysis definitely does deter many other important things we decided would be Malaconda counters, including Scarftran, Toxicroak, Non Lum/Chesto Volcorona, fast fighting types like Infernape and Mienshoa, any fire type or flying type really (besides Skarmory), and any fast user of U-Turn.

Allowing paralysis isn't necessary to deter setup either, as we already gave Malaconda phazing moves and now Encore, Dark STABs to deter Calm Mind Boosters, and Ice Fang specifically for the dragons.

But that's not even the big reason I've come around to thinking paralysis would break Malaconda. The real reason to ban paralysis is the totally ridiculously broken set we have unwittingly made by allowing all dark STABs, confusion and Substitute, in conjunction with Harvest.

Ever play against the ungodly annoying Swagger Wave Liepard? No? Let me break it down for you.

Bold Liepard w/ Prankster
HP 252, Def 4, Speed 252
Item: Leftovers/Focus Sash
Foul Play: Dark STAB with 95 base power, damage reliant on its opponent's Attack power
Swagger: Confuses and doubles opponents' attack power
Thunder Wave: Stuns all opponents except ground types and electric type immunity abilities
Substitute/Encore: Depends on how you want to run this

Basically Liepard can priority stun mostly anything with Prankster T-Wave, or priority confuse any special attacker and simultaneously does nothing for them. If you achieve parafusion on an opponent it has a mere 37% chance of moving at all, and a 50% chance of hurting itself with a boosted attack. Because of the nature of Foul Play, Liepard doesn't even need to invest in attack to hit many things quite decently hard. The Magic Bouncers, normally the bane of Pranksters, are unable to do much of anything to Liepard, because of Foul Play's super effectiveness. With Substitutes, Liepard can stall its opponent until its either unable to move or they hit them self, and then may safely hit them with Foul Play, working off of their boosted attack. With Encore, you can lock them into a move that does nothing (boosting moves, Psychic attacks) and do the same thing. If the opponent decides to switch monsters, they might as well be sacrificing that mon to be stunned as well.

Now while Liepard is annoying, it is also beatable. T-Wave can't hit things like Landorus and Jolteon, and Liepard is also pretty frail. A good priority hit will take it down. U-Turners can break its Sub cycle, and it also has a finite amount of Substitutes. Lum Berry Extremespeed DD Dragonite can even set up on it. But if you aren't prepared for it, anyone who's ever played against Liepard knows what a pain it can be to take it down.

To give you an idea, one on one, I've used Liepard to take down Lucario, Keldeo and Terrakoin. Despite all resisting Foul Play, because using dark moves on them when they have Justified raises their attack even further, this boosts their attack even higher, and thus feeds Foul Play an exponentially higher attack power.

Now then, let's look at a similar set Malaconda could potentially run:

Calm Malaconda w/ Harvest
HP 252, Def 4, Special Def 252,
Item: Sitrus Berry
Foul Play
Glare
Swagger
Substitute

Unlike Swagger Wave Liepard, who is borderline broken but has a few checks, despite a few exceptions this Malaconda is almost completely, COMPLETELY uncounterable in the sun, and is still more difficult to beat than Liepard in any other weather. Say Malaconda switches into a special attacker. Whether or not the opponent switches, it then can use Glare at its leisure, and despite not having Prankster, once the snake stuns its opponent with Glare, which, unlike T-Wave, stuns basically everything, barring a rare 1 in 10 miss, this will allow Malaconda to outspeed its opponent. With a base 55 speed and a neutral nature, Malaconda can outspeed a stunned scarfed 110 base speed pokemon, the fastest unboosted threat you are likely to ever face in OU. With Sitrus Berry, Malaconda can then Sub-stall for a stun INDEFINITELY (until PP runs out anyway), which makes the luck of the opponent actually moving a non-issue, THEN use Swagger, and then Foul Play. Malaconda also happens to be waaay more bulkier than Liepard, making it less susceptible to priority attacks.

On the very off chance something does manage to get through Malaconda's subs and kill it, it will have probably spread enough paralysis and/or net enough kills that the remainder of its team will easily sweep what's left of its opponent's sorry team.

With unlimited Sitrus subs, U-Turners hoping to break the cycle also become a non-issue with slow sub prediction. The only reliable counter to Swagger Glare Malaconda would be Taunt users (who would still take damage from Foul Play), phazers (who still get stunned), Encore users, faster sub users who manage to get in without being Glared, strong Mach Punch users (basically just Conkeldurr and Techniloom), Skill Link Cloyster and maybe Icicle Spear Mamoswine.

Swagger Glare Malaconda would be a nightmare, and we've already given him all the tools to do it. Except for paralysis.

Beyond Swagger Glare, if Malaconda does get Baton Pass, Malaconda could also abuse Glare with unlimited Sitrus subs in a similar manner for an almost fool proof way to Baton Pass bulky subs to various fire types, which through defensive synergy would be almost unbreakable in one hit.

This is coming from somebody who championed Glare. I really wanted Malaconda to have it too. But we NEED to disallow paralysis. Not just Glare either, but Stun Spore and Thunder Wave also, as any variant of this set is still ridiculously hard to beat.

Otherwise sun is just stupid broken.
 

erisia

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Just looking at how Malaconda can use the Screens, I would vote to allow Light Screen but not Reflect. I think that Light Screen is pro-concept as it lets Malaconda take on Latios/Latias and Politoed, among numerous others, with even more certainty, while also making its Sun teammates less susceptible to them as well. The downside is that, with Light Screen and a SpD EV spread, Malaconda takes only 44.93 - 52.76% from Balloon Heatran's Fire Blast in Sunlight, making it a less useful counter. However, Volcarona can still set up Quiver Dances on Malaconda though, so it can eventually boost up to get the KO as necessary with the bulky set. Furthermore, unless Malaconda wants to forgo its berry, it will have to refresh Light Screen every five turns, which keeps the move from being too domineering. Overall, I think that the benefits Light Screen gives to Sun teams outweigh the negatives of making Malaconda less beatable, so allow Light Screen.

On the other hand, Reflect's drawbacks far outweigh its advantages. While making Venusaur less susceptible to priority attacks is nice, a physically defensive Malaconda spread with Reflect and instant recovery would be extremely difficult to break through. For example, if Malaconda reflects on the switch, CB Terrakion will only deal 66.35 - 78.11% with Close Combat, and will be OHKO'd by Power Whip after SR. Likewise, CB Dragonite will fail to break through Reflect with Sun-boosted Fire Punch or Outrage, both of which would stand a good chance of OHKOing normally after hazards, while Ice Fang will inflict some serious damage. Reflect creates too many opportunities for Malaconda to bypass its counters, so disallow Reflect.
 

Deck Knight

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Couple of things:

Disallow Hazards: Hazards are so antithetical to the direction of boosting the sun playstyle rather than being generically good it should be a no brainer to disallow them.

Paralysis is not Burn:

Paralysis is highly inconvenient for a lot of Pokemon, but Malaconda just isn't going to be able to utilize paralysis to cripple all of its counters. Several of them don't care, and as much as they dislike the speed drop and FP chance, they'd rather avoid Toxic or Burn. Burn completely cripples counters because it's both residual damage and protecting Malaconda's weak point. There is absolutely no comparison.

Substitute and Taunt called:

They said "Yeah, you probably can run Sub/Swagger/Glare/Foul Play. Too bad we put a dead stop to that." There's a reason why Prankster Liepard isn't OU: Relying on 90% Accurate confusion induction (and also 90% para in Glare's case) which then only has a 50% chance of making your opponent harm themselves is an entirely luck-based strategy. Luvdisc for Uber.

Baton Pass Redux:

I still don't see why passing 108 HP Subs has anything to do with the concept other than being super nifty. U-turn and Volt-Switch have already been allowed. There is absolutely no reason for Baton Pass other than some convoluted reasoning it's broken to allow Malaconda to break Balloons as its switching to Dugtrio. I consider that an example of sun-specific synergy since it requires you run Dugtrio to do it.

Rapid Spin:

Half of our early arguments were about filling a role in sun teams to fill out slots. Rapid Spin lets us fill that role while reducing the impact of Stealth Rock, one of the metagame parameters that most greatly affects the types that are viable in OU. Allow Rapid Spin.
 
Now then, let's look at a similar set Malaconda could potentially run:

Calm Malaconda w/ Harvest
HP 252, Def 4, Special Def 252,
Item: Sitrus Berry
Foul Play
Glare
Swagger
Substitute
I think you greatly overestimate the viability of this set. For example, Lum Dragonite would love to switch into Swagger then Dragon Dance up as Malaconda is forced out by the threat of a OHKO from Outrage or Fire Punch. The same obviously goes for physical dragons running Lum Berry.
Politoed becomes a viable switch in to a set not carrying a Grass STAB, with Drizzle reducing the reliability of Harvest. Offensive variants can threaten with Focus Blast and Ice Beam while defensive Toed can fire off Scalds to get a burn which does affect the damage output of Foul Play. Breloom can happily switch into Glare and OHKO with Mach Punch with a bit of luck.
 

Nyktos

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I'm just going to pick and choose here since much of the Needs Discussion list are moves I don't really have strong opinions on. For anything that I don't mention here (and haven't already talked about in a previous post) it can be assumed that I don't have any objections to allowing it.

Deck Knight is quite correct in that paralysis and burn are not synonyms, and there are some pretty fundamental differences between the two. However, I don't find the argument that some of our counters don't care about paralysis very convincing. After all, we're supposed to be countered by Fire-types too, and they don't care about burn. Many of our counters (such as Volcarona and Infernape) are utterly crippled by paralysis, just as much as Scizor is by burn. It's true that unlike burn, paralysis will rarely allow Malaconda to beat something 1v1 that it wouldn't otherwise, but Pokémon is not a series of 1v1s. Volcarona, for instance, may still OHKO with Bug Buzz, but being paralyzed completely destroys its ability to sweep. If Malaconda gets Glare, Volcarona is no longer a safe switch-in to it. Paralysis is entirely unnecessary and has harmful side-effects, and as such should not be allowed.

While Screens offer team support, the boosts they give to Malaconda itself defensively are slightly troubling. Malaconda already has enough special bulk to tank hits from its targets without Light Screen, and some of its specially-attacking counters are going to have trouble beating it with. Similarly, many of Malaconda's physical counters will have quite a bit of difficulty beating it when they're doing half as much damage to it. Malaconda already has other ways to support its team, so the lack of screens isn't going to bother it overmuch. Disallow Reflect and Light Screen.

Magic Coat is similar to Encore. It's a nice way to screw with the likes of SubDisable Gengar and Will-O-Wisp Rotom-W (though with Lum the latter is not really a problem anyway), as well as preventing things from setting up hazards which sort of fits okay with the whole hazard control role. Like Encore, while there is some potential to hurt our counters with it (Spore Breloom, anyone?) it is an entirely voluntary risk they take, since all of them are capable of beating Malaconda by simply attacking. Allow Magic Coat.

Perish Song is a phazing move of sorts, and as such could be okay. However, since trapping moves are allowed, it's best to avoid taking the risk of making a perish trap set viable, even if that is not an especially likely occurance. Perish Song doesn't do much that's useful on its own, and combined with trapping moves it has a similar effect to Leech Seed, allowing Malaconda to potentially beat supposed counters by using its powerful recovery moves. The fact that it takes two moveslots makes it infinitely worse than Leech Seed, but it still doesn't seem to have any real positives to make up for that one negative. Disallow Perish Song.

Switcheroo and Trick are only ever used on choice sets, which we don't really want to encourage on Malaconda. The moves aren't really overpowered, but they lead in the wrong direction. Disallow Switcheroo and Trick.

Also, while I'm not strongly opposed to allowing it, I have to agree that Spikes was added to the allowed list a bit prematurely.
 

alexwolf

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What ginganinja said is right. Spikes are a very good move in general that every team could want and do nothing to tie the CAP with sun. However, my biggest problem with allowing Spikes is that i have yet to see a good reason as to why they would benefit Malaconda with her role. And i don't mean generic stuff that could be applied to every Pokemon, such as ''helps wear down its counters'' or ''gives team support'', because by this logic we should give Spikes to every CAP we make. I want to hear more direct ways that Spikes help Malaconda deal with the threats we want it to, such as Lat@s, Water-types, and Electric-types.

RivRivRiv said:
Regarding paralysis moves one last time... One of the reasons I think Sun struggles is that Chlorophyll sweepers struggle to make an impression when sun isn't up. Venusaur is a prime example who needs the speed boost to be competitive. Moves such as Glare allow Venusaur to be more competitive outside of its ideal weather, making the sun team generally better. Paralysis is beneficial because of the pseudo speed boost it gives team mates, unlike speed boosting moves that only benefit Malaconda (or one team mate if Baton Passed) who doesn't need/benefit from the increased speed that much. So allow Glare, disallow speed boosting moves.
Malaconda already helps sun teams keep their weather up by pivoting against dangerous Pokemon and safely bringing in Ninetales with U-turn. Paralyzing moves help Malaconda as much as they would help any Pokemon, so i still fail to see any real reason as to why we want those moves. And when i say real reason, i mean reasons strongly tied with the CAP's role and not generic stuff that can be useful for every Pokemon such as Glare.

CiteAndPrune said:
It lets Malaconda do something to setup sweepers and simply dangerous switch ins other than U-Turn/switch out in fear of them, and it accomplishes this without us having had to give it unnecessarily wide offensive coverage. Grass/Dark STAB without boosting moves isn't going to sweep teams and in the interest of keeping Malaconda's coverage minimal, it needs other tools to do something against its checks and counters.

It's worth noting that particularly against Scizor, unless Malaconda throws the paralysis move on the switch and U-Turns away, Scizor's own Bug STAB will likely OHKO it regardless of EVs due to a x4 weakness. Without a paralysis move, Malaconda only survives if it Subs up on the switch, and can do nothing much but a slow U-Turn to an ally as Scizor breaks the sub and also retreats (or worse, sets up Swords Dance in its face).
Malaconda can already do plenty of things to dangerous sweepers without crippling them for the rest of the game. Dragon Tail, U-turn, Whirlwind, Roar, and Ice Fang all prevent Malaconda's counters or dangerous sweepers from coming in for free. And unlike Glare, they don't invalidate our counters for the rest of the game. We want our counters to counter us and Glare screws half of them, so i don't really understand how can people want this move on the CAP's movepool. Especially when it is largely unecessary as the CAP already has all the tools it needs. It's not like Glare brings some huge benefits to the CAP that are more important than the negatives it brings (screwing up the CAP's counters).

I have already talked about Baton Pass and i would really want it to be allowed, as i want it to be the only switch-momentum move that CAP gets in its final movepool, as having Heatran keep its Balloon intact if Malaconda wants to preserve momentum is really important.

Disallow Reflect and Light Screen. Both moves make the CAP insanely difficult to take down and don't really help it with the things it should do. The CAP can already wall anything it wants to, making Light Screen uneeded and Reflect could be even considered anti-concept, as we want the CAP to be vulnerable from the physical side to keep it balanced.

Disallow Perish Song for the reason that Nyktos mentioned. Seeing as trapping moves are allowed, Perish Song could distract the CAP to unwanted strategies.

Allow Knock Off. Nothing wrong with this move. It can remove useful items from Malaconda's counters without making them useless, making it slightly useful, but it is too much of a gimmick to have any real impact.
 

nyttyn

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Disallow Baton Pass.

I am honestly surprised we are considering this. Baton Pass distracts from the concept from starters, trying to turn it into some sort of BP setup pokemon when it is a pivot. On top of that, there is the huge issue that it turns Malconda into an actually good Moody abuser via Starf. This is a strategy that allowed Bidoof to enable teams to bullshit their way to victory in Ubers. Slightly more difficult as Malaconda will have to get in and Substitute up, but if it, god help you, gets a Evasion boost, and another boost that's at least useful (say, +spe, or +atk/+spatk), then that's highly potentially GG right there due to bullshit completely out of your control.

It's not the most optimal strategy in the world, but why on Kanto would we want to enable Malaconda to act as a poor man's Moody? He doesn't even get the -2! Sure, he only gets to do it once or twice, but the point stands it is an extremely bullshit strategy (a banned bullshit strategy, may I remind you) that I am certain none of us want to enable for Malaconda.

U-turn already does everything Baton Pass does that is reelvant to Malaconda and better (breaking balloons, breaking sashes, causing the damage to rack up). The cons of allowing a pseudo-Moody into the mtagame are not worth the pros that a u-turn that doesn't break Heatran's balloon brings.
 

Base Speed

What a load of BS!
I think Deck Knight summed my thoughts on paralysis up nicely. This "deadly set" done by Prankster Liepard is going to always be better than one done by Malaconda because of Prankster. That Liepard remains in NU sums up how little we need to fear this. As for skewing counters, many don't care (Scizor, Breloom) and most would need to be caught on the switch to avoid them OHKOing Malaconda before it even gets the chance to paralyze them (Outrage says hi). I think the usefulness of these moves is being highly overestimated by some but it might be a nice way to ensure Malaconda isn't a sitting duck for switch ins. So I'm inclined to say allow paralysis but I won't be crying if it gets disallowed.

Nyktos makes a very good point about Perish Song. We don't want to tempt people into using it alongside trapping moves. And we don't need it. We've given Malaconda plenty of (p)hazing moves already. Disallow Perish Song.

My worry with giving Malaconda screens is that it'll encourage other Malaconda to use Infiltrator more. We don't really want that. It seems like a silly, minor point against screens but since there's nothing about them that makes them pro-concept, this should be all it takes to disallow Reflect and Light Screen.

As for Magnet Rise... Seriously, what's the point? Even pokemon 4x weak to ground don't normally bother and Malaconda resists it. It's utterly pointless and shouldn't even be classified as a VGM for this pokemon. Sadly, the sheer uselessness of this move gives me no grounds to disallow it on. But heck, disallow Magnet Rise anyway. Just to get it out of the way.

I might edit this and add some other moves later...
 

Bughouse

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The goal of this project is to change the metagame dominance of a few types. We chose to tackle this by boosting sun, specifically by supporting Sun in such a way that two teamslots can be filled by just our one CAP.

With that in mind allowing Spikes and Rapid Spin are both vital to the project. The biggest obvious deadweight on sun teams are the Magic Bouncers/Forretress/Donphan. Basically things related to hazard control. Malaconda absolutely must be able to take over that role for Sun teams to improve.
 
Spikes is back on the table. Really, the reason it was put into Allowed in the first place was that it enjoyed about as much support as anything was getting. The thread was slowing down, and I would have given a 24-hour warning right now if things had continued in this way. People have brought up concerns that are similar to the ones that I originally had with Spikes. I didn't want comparisons to Deoxys to occur on Malaconda. Malaconda could potentially be a really good Spiker like Deoxys, who is banned (but will be allowed in the playtest due to the time in which CAP 5 started). The main question for Spikes discussion is the simple, "Could it become too good?"

Yawn has been lumped in with the other sleep moves a lot, but is it really a sleep move in that sense? It has been brought up that Yawn fits a phazing role more than a status-inflicting role. That's the issue I see the discussion on Yawn focusing on.

Finally, I can see the reasons to allow Baton Pass and the reasons not to allow Baton Pass, both for their own minor balancing reasons. People who are for Baton Pass see a non-violent alternative to U-turn and Volt Switch that maintains Heatran's Air Balloon. People who are against Baton Pass see a potential nightmare in the form of berry abuse or some other, yet unforseen tactic.

I'll start moving the newest moves later on.

P.S. I put Cosmic Power and friends out of the competitive list because there's really no reason for it to be on there and the existing non-competitive VGMs not on there. The main reason I took the purely defense-boosting moves out (other than Quiver Dance, which I thought could have some weird effect with its SpD + Speed boost) was that metagame evidence points to them being competitive only in very specific circumstances, such as Magic Guard Sigilyph, which do not apply to Malaconda. One of the reasons I even entertained the other boosting moves was to see how competitive on Malaconda they could be. Yet, it seems to have caused people to make generalized arguments that I'm not sure hold up to scrutiny in real Pokemon.

The reason I went on excluding VGMs at all is precisely that VGMs are supposed to be about the perceived power of a move independently of its wielder. I see these discussions as a way to talk about moves as they are relative to the wielder, and we can go to movepool limits and submissions to talk about moves as they appear to be. Under this ideal, there would be more of a crackdown later on, as we demand both well-reasoned competitive inclusions and well-reasoned flavour. I say this now because I know some people have commented on this approach, and I don't know completely how it will turn out compared to going off of VGMs directly, but it's still something that I'd like to try and that I think is worth trying.
 

jas61292

used substitute
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So I havn't been commenting here as much as usual, but for the most part I think things are going well so far. I just want to take a few minutes to give my thoughts on a few of the core contorversial moves.

First off is Baton Pass, and, to be frank, I think any and all concerns about this are vastly overblown. We have no boosting moves worth passing and we are too slow to hope to pass a good sub. The only legitamate concerns are regarding pinch berries, and those are such a bad gimmick stratagy that we should be not paying it any more attention than a special attacker set. Like seriously, if you can get yourself down to 25% and not be phazed and get off a pass that is likely no better than the pass of your standard passer... woop dee doo. This is not a distraction, it is a gimmick. The real use of BP is as an alternate to U-Turn, and I think our movepool makers should have the right to choose between the two.

The other ones I want to comment on are Paralysis moves. I personally believe that Paralysis doesn't do anything we really need, and has the potential to screw over a large number of our counters. Yes, I understand that none of our counters really fails to counter us because it is paralyzed, but you are taking Pokemon that are supposed to be able to switch in easily and counter, and crippling them perminantly for the rest of the battle. Additionally, it is not really helping us beat anything we care about. Nearly everything we want to beat is more scared of our STABs. I'm just not understanding the justification for these moves when it comes to helping against what we want. Anything that we actually need these for can be accomplished with speed boosters just as easily, without crippling all of the things that beat us.

Finally, on Spikes, I think the best reasoning in favor is that assuming Rapis Spin is a go, then by using Malaconda as a Spinner, Sun is giving up Forretress and Donphan, both of whom can provide hazard support. Hazards are key to netting certain KOs, so giving them up is big. The ability to use them would be further reason for sun teams to use Malaconda over their old spinners. With that said, Rocks in general are unfriendly to sun, and we want to be equally good against all teams, and not specifically hurt other sun teams, so Spikes is the superior choice for hazards. I don't think they are necessary, but I don't think it would be harmful to have it, since other weather types have better spikers. Remember, Malaconda is being made for a Deoxys-D metagame, so unless it can trump it at that job (which it really can't), it is not going to be a general use spiker.
 
I think you greatly overestimate the viability of this set. For example, Lum Dragonite would love to switch into Swagger then Dragon Dance up as Malaconda is forced out by the threat of a OHKO from Outrage or Fire Punch. The same obviously goes for physical dragons running Lum Berry.
Politoed becomes a viable switch in to a set not carrying a Grass STAB, with Drizzle reducing the reliability of Harvest. Offensive variants can threaten with Focus Blast and Ice Beam while defensive Toed can fire off Scalds to get a burn which does affect the damage output of Foul Play. Breloom can happily switch into Glare and OHKO with Mach Punch with a bit of luck.
Obviously if the weather changes Malaconda's fun is shortened. But what if the opponent didn't bring weather or if their weather is already dead?

I mentioned Lum Dragonite in my post. Obviously you wouldn't throw Swagger around unless you were safe behind a sub. If you hit Dragonite with Swagger on the switch from behind a sub, you could either then hit it with Foul Play with its own boosted attack or Glare it and sub stall indefinitely for paralysis. Either way it's still very crippled for the rest of the game. And while Extremespeed gets through this set, not all DNites carry it.

And yeah, Mach Punch Breloom and Conkledurr. It's not like you couldn't switch out to Chandelure or Xatu or anything. :/

And @ Deck Knight, yes I considered Taunt and Substitute. And yeah, 90% paralysis/confusion is technically a luck based strategy. 10% chance of missing. Just like Toxic. That's a great check.

What ISN'T a luck based strategy is the fact if it hits its opponent on the switch with Glare, Malaconda can stall indefinitely for full paralysis with Sitrus Substitute if its opponent if it happens to lack priority, phazing or Encore. Bear in mind, phazign and Enocore only have a third of a chance to work the first try after parafusion, and Taunt and Substitute matter less for the opponent after paralysis, as Taunt wears off in time, and it'd still be paralyzed behind its sub. Either way, Malaconda can still do damage with Foul Play from behind its own sub.

If you still think this set isn't a big deal, that's fine. Throw this argument out the window.

What alexwolf had to say about paralysis was also very true:

Malaconda can already do plenty of things to dangerous sweepers without crippling them for the rest of the game. Dragon Tail, U-turn, Whirlwind, Roar, and Ice Fang all prevent Malaconda's counters or dangerous sweepers from coming in for free. And unlike Glare, they don't invalidate our counters for the rest of the game. We want our counters to counter us and Glare screws half of them, so i don't really understand how can people want this move on the CAP's movepool. Especially when it is largely unecessary as the CAP already has all the tools it needs. It's not like Glare brings some huge benefits to the CAP that are more important than the negatives it brings (screwing up the CAP's counters).
Ok, enough about Glare already.

Disallow Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish.
Disallow Baton Pass
.
I've talked about those to death. See previous posts.

Disallow Destiny Bond. Custap Malaconda could be a very destructive with DB, in addition to priority Power Whip, Crunch and Ice Fang. It doesn't need to go suicide bonding steel types it can't kill with those three moves.
Disallow Healing Wish. He already has Heal Bell, which in conjuction, with Rest heals what needs to be healed (Ninetales).
Ingrain
Allow Knock Off. Let's Malaconda knock Evolite from Chansey and Porygon2, both of which often wall sun to hell and back.
Allow Light Screen. No reason to disallow it. It will always be an inferior screener to Xatu and Espeon.
Disallow Magic Coat. Lum Malaconda doesn't fear status and I think Malaconda should be susceptible to Taunt and Encore. Using Magic Coat as a way to rebound hazards is always a short sighted endeavor anyway, and we alreayd gave him Rapid Spin.
Disallow Magnet Rise. It's pretty pointless. No one will run it either way
Allow Memento. Helps Venusaur set up Growth.
Disallow Perish Song. It already has phazing. With Mean Look, a Perish/Rest trap set could be done, which I don't think it needs.
Disallow Reflect. For the same reason as Will O Wisp. Its weakened defense it its Achilles heel.
Allow Spikes. Sun could use a spikes setter, as several sun counters are ground weak.
Allow Switcheroo / Trick. An Infiltrator Choice Band on Malaconda might as well be an option. Like Knock Off, this would allow Malaconda to screw Chansey and Porygon2. Also, most of Malaconda's switch ins are physical attackers, so giving them a band only hurts Malaconda.
Disallow Torment. It screws up Malaconda's dedicated checks, but not really effectively either.
Disallow Yawn. Inferior to other phazing moves anyway, and can be used for sleep.
 

ginganinja

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So, can someone explain to me why we need sunlight to have Spikes? Iv read recent posts and come up with reasons such as "Hazard Control" which applies more to Rapid Spin (which I support) NOT Spikes, Another reason is "Sun has grounded counters". Like seriously, pretty much everything as grounded counters, its not a reason to pick spikes. Not to mention
in giving sunlight a high tier spiker, against makes dealing with sun even harder. How well do you think Scizor will counter CAP 5, when its losing health form Spikes every single switch in?

Remember, spinning on this thing is redic hard thanks to its STABs, plus Venusaur / Volcarona can do a dam good job at threatening opposing spinners as well. I just honestly don't see the reason for us to give this thing Spikes other than "its a good move" or "It hits grounded pokemon", which is terrible logic. Under that line of thinking, why not just gives Spikes to every CAP we make?
 
Current summary of paralysis argument:

Supporter: It doesn't stop our counters being counters.
Detractor: Yes it does.

So, here we go in support of paralysis one last time.

(I'm going to assume dual STAB only here because Malaconda doesn't have room for any more while still performing a supporting role.)

Malaconda is supposed to threaten Thunderus-T. At this point in time it doesn't achieve that:

Code:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malaconda: 
221-263 (50.92 - 60.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 

4 Atk Malaconda Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 
115-136 (38.46 - 45.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So Thunderus-T is actually a good switch in to Malaconda, unless it is paralysed on the switch as Malaconda can Rest every second turn while wearing down with Crunch/Sucker Punch. A similar situation occurs with offensive Gyarados (calcs to come after work).

I still wouldn't say this is overly threatening but it beats being beaten by something we're supposed to threaten. Obviously a set like this eschews Rapid Spin in favor of beating Thunderus-T, but it does illustrate some specific uses of paralysis as some of the detractors have been asking for.
 
Only gonna say some stuff about a few moves here, a lot of the ones in need discussion don't seem of much importance. Malaconda is disappointing so far, at least in my opinion, we have made it's movepool too restricted with concerns about sun but have really based him around sun when he really isn't supposed to be. Sun should of been disregarded and we should just look at CAPs as a singular entity, not as a part of a specific team.

Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish --- Glare / Stun Spore / Thunder Wave
Putting these together, he doesn't need all six of these since in general they have similar effects. They all allow Malaconda to double it's speed over his opponent. However, Thunder Wave is much better because it can be used to lure while agility/automize/rock polish/etc. are all just until mala switches out and not permanent. That being said however, all of these are not only helpful, but it is also kinda redundant to have all of them. I suggest that Malaconda is allowed all moves listed above and just let the final movepool submissions decide. Maybe put a restriction on having only one speed raising move and one paralysis move total on final movepool? Whatever, I don't decide this stuff, but with all of these moves dealing with the exact same stat (speed stat) they should all be allowed to ensure maximum flexibility with the final move set submissions.

Next, I feel the following moves go against the main theme, which by the way, isn't sun breaking, but type equalizing.-- Healing Wish and Destiny Bond should be disallowed because of Malaconda is mostly going to be support from what I see now, and killing him along with sacrificing a move slot seems like a ridiculous notation considering how we worked so hard to make this CAP a threat to several Pokemon, and not a cleric or suicide bomber that is only capable of killing one Pokemon if it is lucky. It should be scaring off bulky special attackers and intimidating those with type disadvantage. Not going "eye for an eye" with just any Pokemon unlucky enough to get trapped by

Perish Song--Most OP thing ever, and I know I have stressed that mala isn't OP but this would be insanity. The ability to trap with trap moves, his viability with dugtrio, and perish song? This is a bad mix on any Pokemon. He would basically be able to obliterate anything with enough protect spamming and mean look/perish song annoyance along with major stalling. It would make CAP5 a deadly revenge killer of special attacking mons, and a scary Pokemon to face on the battlefield. Disallow this please.

Final notes:

Most things I didn't list were because I don't see much reason to allow or disallow all the other moves that are listed. I see people begging for spikes/rapid spin but that only helps sun teams and I really am annoyed that people are trying to make Malaconda super strong on sun teams when in reality he is supposed to reduce the threat levels of certain common types in OU.

Baton Pass: Probably should be controversial or something, but I can't really say anything about this presently because Malaconda doesn't have any moves that make Baton pass really meaningful. I would say allow as of now since I don't see much potential threat when U-turn outclasses it so much, but my opinion will change depending on weather or not Malaconda get's speed boosting moves.

Nice little edit: I was informed by a little birdie that because I was not present for the discussion on the CAP5 purpose, I am misinformed about CAP5s true potential. However, even if my opinion is stupid it isn't wrong :(

I am now confused on what we are doing with CAP5, is it a sun supporter or is it a type equalizer with sun just a big side effect?
 

Nyktos

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Crunch is guaranteed to 2HKO Thundurus-T after rocks with no investment. Even without rocks, Sitrus Berry prevents Thundy from ever 2HKOing with Focus Blast in sun, so the 3HKO is enough (for Sitrus sets). Thundurus-T is not, in the general case, a good switch-in on Malaconda, Glare or no Glare.
 

Bughouse

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Put simply, why would you use Rapid Spin Malaconda when it means forfeiting the Spikes that Forretress normally brings? If the goal of giving Malaconda Rapid Spin is to make a better Spinner for Sun, then we should actually make that the case.
 
Malaconda @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Harvest
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Torment
- Power Whip / Crunch / Toxic

This is what Malaconda can do with Torment. Based off the infamous TormenTran, Malaconda can force a switch, using Substitute on the switch, Torment the Victim, then defend with Substitute and Protect. If Malaconda gets a free turn, it can start a Toxic stall, or attack. If this set is okay for use, then we should allow Torment.

Agility : With all other Speed Boosting moves, Malaconda does not need speed in order to oppose the dominant types; what it needs is bulk, utility, and a respectable attack. For every action is taken against Malaconda becoming a sweeper, Speed Boosting is disallowed.
Baton Pass : Malaconda has no buisness in Baton Passing, as at this point, the only thing to be left considered is speed boosting, and Malaconda has many sets that are much better. Disallowing Baton Pass.
Destiny Bond : Malaconda doesn't have much reason to use Destiny bond; it has SitrusHarvest, and it has LumRest. The way Malaconda helps its team is by staying alive and checking or countering threats to sun, Not sacrificing itself after a killing spree like Gengar. disallowing Destiny Bond.
Glare : If Malaconda switches into a Politoed and tanks its attack, your opponent will not risk losing the weather wars, and will attempt to switch out Politoed. While Pursuit might be an option, Politoed isn't exactly Pursuit weak. As an alternative, Malaconda can use Glare on the switch, crippling whomever your opponent sent to oppose Malaconda. Due to its lose-lose quality similar to Pursuit, Glare should be allowed. That is, assuming it isn't too overpowered...
Healing Wish : As stated earlier, Malaconda serves its team by staying alive, so Healing Wish would not see any real purpose on Malaconda.
Ingrain : Ingrain Gives Malaconda yet another way of staying alive, but at a cost; Malaconda cannot switch out from its counters. Malaconda can use Baton Pass, but the recipient too, will become rooted and unable to flee. Malaconda could also use U-Turn to escape, but Malaconda's speed means it could be killed by one of its counters by that time. If you suspect that one of Malaconda's counters is about to switch in, Malaconda can U-Turn out, but if you mispredict, you just U-Turned, say, a Politoed, and now have to switch in another one of your pokemon, who may or may not be good against Politoed, putting you in a bad position. Because of its Risk vs Reward, Ingrain should be allowed.
Knock Off: In a Similar fashion to Glare, Malaconda can use this to discourage Switch ins. Nuetral on the matter, but leaning towards allowing.
Light Screen and Reflect : While Malaconda is a Pivot that can also provide utility for its team, it has a designated weakness to fighting. Because of this, both should be disallowed, or only Reflect should be disallowed.
Magic Coat : Malaconda does not have much need to use Magic Coat; it already has Rapid Spin and Aromatherapy. Getting Magic Coat has two outcomes: Magic Coat is used often, and the latter two rarely, or Magic Coat is used rarely, and the latter two often. Both cases go against Magic Coat. Disallowing Magic Coat.
Magnet Rise : The only purpose Magnet Rise serves is to be passed off to an earth weak teammate, such as Heatran. Only allow if Baton Pass is allowed.
Memento : Once again, Malaconda serves its team by surviving, and Memento does not contribute to this. Disallowing Memento.
Perish Song : Malaconda's role is that of a pivot, and Rain teams have an easier time switching than Sun teams. Disallowing Perish Song.
Spikes : If Sun teams absolutely need a sun abusing setter, then Malaconda is up for the role. The allowance of Spikes depends on how great that need really is.
Switcheroo : Because Malaconda is so dependent on its items, a trick would cripple him. Fortunately, Switcheroo can alleviate the situation somewhat, maybe swapping that choice scarf you go tricked with onto a ferrothorn in return for leftovers. Allowing Switcheroo.
Yawn : Malaconda has no buisness with sleep moves. Disallowing Yawn.
 
Well, most of the stuff still in the discussion weren't really discussed much (not that I expected much different from the miscellanea), and they've been allowed accordingly. Exceptions were Trick, the screens (which I felt were best done as a unit) and Perish Song, which were disallowed for either being anti-concept or encouraging sets that weren't relevant.

I'll give some more time for the rest. With Baton Pass, it looks like it's going to go down to the fact that, while both sides of the argument go over arguably minor points, the idea of it being an alternative to U-turn is nonetheless a lot more realistic than the idea of a set that honestly looks like a gimmick to me. I don't think that Yawn is going to get much real discussion anymore, but we'll see what happens with that, I guess. Spikes has gotten rather controversial, and while there's a lot against the paralysis moves, there has been some argument for it (though apparently not lately). It's moving toward a disallow, but I'll wait a bit longer to see if people say much else about it. I've been leaving the Speed boosting moves on for so long because I want to make the point that paralysis is probably more effective on a base 55 Speed mon than a Speed boosting move, a notion that a lot of the theorymon surrounding both categories of moves seems to contradict.
 
Malaconda was meant to replace several roles on sun teams, and one of those is spinning. This doesn't mean it has to do everything else that the spinners it's replacing do, however. Malaconda already provides a slew of other abilities for sun teams (such as countering it's biggest threats and pivoting to teammates). It's not the end of the world to lose Spikes (or choose another Spiker). It's not like we suddenly become a spike-less Foretress. I just don't see the logic in saying that if we can't do everything Forretress can do then we wont be good enough.
 
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