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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Apr 5, 2013.

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  1. Nyktos

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    Okay. I'm going to stick to the Needs Discussion list, despite how few people are doing that...

    First off, Rest. Now, I do think that if Rest is overpowered we shouldn't allow it, even though everything gets it. However, I don't really think it is. While there has been some worry that LumRest is too good, every decision that's been made since Harvest was picked was made with LumRest in mind, because it was the most promoted use of Harvest from the beginning. We've already done everything in our power to make LumRest fair, and while only the playtest will tell us if we've succeeded, I don't see any evidence we've failed. Allow Rest.

    That being said, if Rest is allowed, I don't really see why Malaconda needs other recovery options. In sunlight, all of them are clearly inferior to 100% healing and status recovery at will. Outside of sunlight they add reliability, but I don't think giving non-sun teams more reliability is necessary. You could argue that they help if you lose the weather war, I suppose, but it's not as though LumRest is by any stretch of the imagination useless in non-sun weather.

    The one exception to that, of course, would be if you want to use Harvest with a berry other than Lum. Sitrus, of course, adds recovery of its own so it can likely be used to reasonable effectiveness without a recovery move. With no recovery moves, Lum and Sitrus are probably the only really good berries. I think that would be a good thing. So many of the other berries completely go against the role we've set out for Malaconda. Pinch berries clearly don't work with a defensive pivot / support mon, and resist berries threaten to undermine our threatlist. For instance, with Occa Berry and maxed out special bulk, offensive Heatran has only a 24% chance to 2HKO Malaconda with Fire Blast in sun. (And that's only 17% when you factor in accuracy.) People have talked, and worried, about the ability to beat Heatran by U-turning to Dugtrio, but with Occa Berry we can actually switch in on Heatran and do that (well, 83% of the time at least).

    Now obviously there's nothing we can do at this stage to prevent that possibility, and a set like that is likely to be a gimmick anyway. But that's just one of the many, many possibilities that Harvest allows with arbitrary berries. Forcing Malaconda to use Lum if it wants a recovery move makes options like that far less tempting, and that in my mind can only be a good thing. Disallow all healing moves besides Rest.

    While I'm at it, I want to address a certain argument in favour of Moonlight and friends, namely that because the moves are boosted in sun they make Malaconda better on sun teams and therefore help the concept. That's a dangerous argument, and it's exactly the same one that supported Fire moves last thread, which we wisely chose to disallow anyway. Our goal isn't to make a Pokémon that is good in sun, it's to make a Pokémon that makes sun teams better. Being able to heal itself well doesn't really do that, unless it needs that healing to successfully achieve the things it was put on the team to achieve. Thus "Moonlight makes Malaconda better in sun" is a useful argument if and only if it can be demonstrated that Malaconda is not good enough on sun teams without it.

    I think that ginganinja and others are right on the money with Leech Seed. The likes of specially defensive Heatran and defensive Ninetales—any special attacker that can't OHKO and doesn't carry recovery—can easily be stalled out with Leech Seed and a strong recovery move (LumRest or Moonlight). Malaconda is incredibly bulky but isn't intended as a stall-oriented Pokémon, and as such I think giving it stall-oriented moves is a mistake, especially if they can be used to successfully stall out supposed counters. Disallow Leech Seed.

    Volt Switch is entirely irrelevant, but I guess I don't see any reason not to allow it.
  2. DrNeoCortex

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    My main fears about the status moves are Leech Seed and stat boosters, Coil in particular. Reasoons for disallowing Leech Seed have been said already. Letting Leech Seed through will allow Malaconda to screw with its counters, letting it have recovery AND constant passive damage on the enemy. Coil (or any boosting move) will make it a bulky sweeper with its access to two strong priority moves in Sucker Punch and Extremespeed, which goes against the concept. Disallow stat boosting moves, espescially Coil.
  3. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!
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    This isn't going to be the lengthiest post this thread has ever seen.

    Many of the moves I want allowed or disallowed have already had those cases put forward so I'm trying to avoid repeating what other people have already said, and instead expressing my agreement.

    Allow sun based healing moves and disallow non-sun based healing moves (except rest). As already said by many, this adds specificity to sun and decreases the temptation to use Malaconda under rain or sand.

    Allow Rest. For LumHarvest under sun. Some people fear this is broken but we must remember that Malaconda has to use up a moveslot and its item and must have sun up to pull this off, decreasing the versatility of this set quite a bit. Also no amount of recovery will save it from the faster physical threats that can OHKO it - it's not an unbreakable wall even with reliable 100% recovery.

    Disallow Leech Seed. The only arguments for Leech Seed are basically "it's a grass type so it should be able to subseed" and "why not?". I'm not happy with either of them. The ability to subseed, while nice to have, doesn't actually help the concept in any way whatsoever - it's very much a generic goodmon move that could see use in any weather and if ginjaninja is correct in stating that it allows Malaconda to beat Heatran 1v1 then this can only be trouble. We'll just have to get over the fact that we're making a grass type without Leech Seed. Competitive before flavor.
  4. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Here is my opinion about the moves on the Needs Discussion list:


    Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled

    All of those moves should be disallowed. We chose Harvest for a reason, and this is to take advantage of the various uses its has, and one of those was the LumRest strategy. Giving to the CAP the ability to reliably heal even without Lum Berry would only overshadow one of the main sets we wanted to create for the CAP (LumRest) and give to the CAP more reasons to be used outside of sun teams, where LumRest becomes unreliable. Also, as of now the CAP has only two ways of healing, RestLum or Sitrus Berry, meaning that if the CAP wants recovery it must use the respective Berry. But by giving it reliable recovery that isn't related to the Berry that Malaconda holds opens up the door for a ton of possibly broken or distracting from our role sets, such as Sub + Recovery + Liechi Berry, Recovery + Type Resist Berry (Nyktos gave a good example that showcases how with reliable recovery the CAP can wall one of its best counters, Heatran), and other sets i don't even want to imagine. For those reasons, disallow reliable, one-turn healing moves.

    Leech Seed

    The only way for Leech Seed to not potentially break or derail the CAP from its purpose would be to not give it Rest. Leech Seed + Rest = trouble. However, as i said before, we have made every stage of the CAP with the assumption that Malaconda will have Rest, not to mention that Leech Seed helps much more the CAP with its role than Leech Seed, due to its ability to tie the CAP with sun even more, give it status immunity and thus deal better against water-types, and finally tie recovery with a Berry, preventing potentially broken or distracting sets from appearing (SubSeed + Liechi Berry, SubSeed + Petaya Berry + Hidden Power Fire, SubSeed + Salac Berry). For those reasons, disallow Leech Seed.

    Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis

    I am going to be straight, i don't have a fucking clue what to do with those moves. On the positive side, they give defensive sets without LumRest more recovery, enhancing their longevity, but this comes at the cost of a much needed moveslot. Furthermore, those moves will be worth using only on sun teams and even on sun teams they will often be very unreliable, due to how common sand and rain teams are and the fact that Malaconda will be switching into Politoed a lot. Lastly, the healing of those moves combined with the recovery of Sitrus Berry won't be a problem imo, as those moves have too little PPs to allow Malaconda to stall out anything that it shouldn't. So they will slightly enhance the versatility of defensive sets without LumRest, giving them the option to trade coverage or utility for longevity, which is something good.

    But on the negative side, those moves may open the door to dangerous sets that involve the type resist Berries or the stat raising Berries. A set of Liechi Berry + Sucker Punch + Moonlight with max HP and max Atk could become dangerous and stray the CAP to a more offensive role. Other sets could be created, but thankfully those moves won't help the CAP to stall anything with the assistance of type resist Berries, as they have very little PPs, so this is a relief. But Harvest is a very versatile ability and shouldn't be underestimated, so i am really skeptic about those moves.

    Allow them for the sake of increasing the versatility of Malaconda's defensive non-LumRest sets, or disallow them to avoid the creation of any great offensive sets that will derail the CAP from its role?

    Pain Split

    I don't really know what to do with this move... It will be pretty much useless with LumRest allowed, even outside of Sun, but i prefer not allowing it for the rare chance that when used with a stat boosting berry it could allow the CAP to heal back to relatively good life after activating the Berry, and thus getting some sweeping or cleaning potential. A max Atk / max Spe set with Power Whip + Crunch + Ice Fang could become a decent cleaner with a Speed boost, and survive hits from faster special Pokemon due to the recovery granted by Pain Split. And even if everything that i say is bullshit, i don't want to allow a move that brings nothing positive to the CAP, but can bring potential negatives, however small those negatives may be. Disallow Pain Split.

    Rest

    Nyktos said everything i wanted pretty nicely. I also want to add that LumRest won't be overpowered as long as we don't give to Malaconda Leech Seed and considering that many stages of the CAP were based on the it getting Rest (Ability stage and Stat Spread stage) it would be unfair to put our focus behind Leech Seed and not Rest. Allow Rest.

    Wish

    As much as i like the idea of a sun support Pokemon with Wish, this move will be more good than bad to Malaconda. As explained many times before, in my post and other's posts too, reliable recovery that isn't tied with a certain Berry is a very dangerous area to step into and should be avoided. Not to mention that with such a good HP stat, the CAP could end aiding Ninetales and her teammates too much in weather wars and potentially making sun overwhelming and broken. Finally, Wish makes the CAP very viable outside of sun teams, something that we don't want. Disallow Wish.
  5. Agent Gibbs

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    I know that the consensus is that we should allow Rapid Spin to add to the utility of Malaconda on Sun teams, but I'd like to suggest that we disallow Rapid Spin. Yes Sun teams need a good Rapid Spinner, but look at what you'd be making here: a Dark-type Rapid Spinner with decent attack, incredible special bulk, secondary Grass typing, and Lum + Harvest. You would essentially be giving the biggest middle finger to OU's main spinblockers (Gengar and Jellicent) that I think I've ever seen. Malaconda only needs the leftover 4 EVs placed into Atk to guarantee a OHKO on 4/0 Gengar with Crunch, and a specially defensive set cannot be 2HKO'd by Focus Blast unless Gengar is using a power-boosting item. Jellicent isn't much safer. Power Whip is an easy 2HKO on the standard set, and Lum + Harvest helps immensely against Will-O-Wisp. Specially defensive sets can even be OHKO'd by Power Whip given a little previous damage. Now, I know this sounds great, giving Sun a near-perfect Rapid Spinner and all, but I just fear that Sun teams won't be the only ones that this would be attractive to. I'm sure other teams would love to have a Rapid Spinner that can beat opposing spinblockers and can use LumRest for healing. Giving Rapid Spin to Malaconda might be just one more thing to distract from its main purpose.

    As far as the Needs Discussion list, I think we should disallow all healing moves that are not Sun-based or Rest. Having other healing moves could allow Malaconda to forgo Sitrus + Harvest or LumRest for healing, which would turn Harvest into more of an accessory than a necessary tool for recovery, allowing other types of teams to take advantage of Malaconda's other good assets without the need for Sun. Sun-based healing moves might be okay, since these would only be useful on Sun teams anyways, but having 66% healing and a perpetual Lum Berry in Sun could be a bit much. I don't think this should be too much of a problem, though. As for Rest, I believe that it helps solidify the niche that Malaconda has with Harvest by opening up the possibility of LumRest (or ChestoRest). Combined with Sitrus + Harvest and the Sun-based recovery moves, this would give Malaconda 3 methods of recovery, each of which requiring the use of Sun to be optimal.

    Volt Switch is completely inferior to U-turn. Malaconda's SpA stat is much too low to take advantage of any super-effective coverage Volt Switch might offer, so it'd essentially be a weaker U-turn that can be blocked by Electric-immune Pokemon. I can't see any problems that this would cause (besides perhaps aesthetic flavor clashes, which are irrelevant here), so I say we allow Volt Switch.
  6. DetroitLolcat

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    Volt Switch is an inferior U-Turn. Allow it for all I care.


    Recovery:
    Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled

    Disallow these moves. Although CAP5 definitely wants to be able to reliable recover its HP, this is a very anti-concept method of doing so. CAP5's tether to the Sun playstyle is already pretty thin, and giving CAP5 reliable recovery pretty much breaks that tie. Currently, we create the incentive to use Malaconda on a Sun team by only letting Malaconda recover its HP if it's in the Sun. Harvest is only reliable in the Sun, and it's pretty obvious we designed Malaconda to have a defensive advantage in the Sun. These moves will give Malaconda the ability to reliable recover its HP in Rain and Sand, and arguably give Ferrothorn competition as this tier's premier defensive Grass type. If we force Malaconda users to use Malaconda in Sun or lose reliable recovery, Malaconda will retain its goal of being a Sun Pokemon. If we give Malaconda these moves, we relegate Harvest to being a minor upgrade for Sun teams, which will diminish Malaconda's role as a Sun Pokemon. Disallow Heal Order / Milk Drink / Recover / Roost / Slack Off / Softboiled

    Leech Seed

    Disallow this as well. For starters, just because Malaconda is a Grass Pokemon does not mean that it needs Leech Seed. Plenty of Grass Pokemon do not get Leech Seed, and Leech Seed is not a common move in Pokemon. However, the reason that Malaconda should not be allowed to have Leech Seed is because it allows Malaconda to stall its counters, especially out of Sun. Malaconda straight-up beats Heatran in Rain with Leech Seed, and unlike Ferrothorn, Malaconda also beats Magnezone in Rain. We're not trying to make a better Ferrothorn or a cross between Ferrothorn and Blissey, and Leech Seed will turn Malaconda into a Ferrothorn/Blissey hybrid or a hazard-free Ferrothron. Personally, I would love Malaconda on a Rain team if it got Leech Seed, which is why I'm speaking to Disallow Leech Seed.


    Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis

    Now this is how Malaconda should be recovering. Morning Sun, Moonlight, and Synthesis pretty much scream, "if you want Malaconda to recover its HP with any sort of reliability, you're using it on a Sun team". Moonlight, Morning Sun, and Synthesis are the three moves Sun has that no other weather has, and Malaconda needs to be able to abuse those moves. Since Malaconda is a support/defensive-oriented Pokemon, it should be able to use the one group of support moves that is exclusive to Sun. Nobody uses Moonlight/Synthesis/Morning Sun outside of Sun (even on nonweather it's generally not worth it because of Rain/Sand and low PP), but those three moves are great on Sun. Allow Moonlight/Morning Sun/ Synthesis

    Pain Split

    Nobody is going to use Pain Split on this Pokemon if it gets any of the moves on this list, and since we're /probably/ going to give Malaconda some form of recovery on this list there's really no point to discussing Pain Split IMO. Pain Split is a non-competitive move on Malaconda compared to the moves we're discussing. Allow Pain Split I guess? Or disallow it. I don't care.

    Rest

    Allow it. Rest is a horrible move without a Lum Berry, and the only reason anyone is going to use Lum Berry on Malaconda is because the Malaconda user intends to abuse Harvest. If a set is based on Harvest abuse, it's probably on a Sun team. Rest is primarily going to be used on Sun teams, although Rest is not a horrible option on non-Sun teams. Regardless, Rest+Harvest is a huge reason to use Malaconda on a Sun team, and creating this incentive is huge for the concept. Allow Rest.

    Wish- I originally loved Wish on this Pokemon, but the move has quickly fallen out of my favor. Wish is pretty reliable recovery for Malaconda or a teammate, and we don't want Wish to work as a pseudo-Recover for Rain and Sand teams. Disallow Wish.
  7. Qwilphish

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    Volt Switch, in my opinion, is a completely useless now that U-Turn is allowed, no ground type, Volt Switch or not, is going to want to switch into Malaconda. Between U-Turn and Baton Pass, there is no reason for Volt Switch to be used. Although it is harmless in the face of U-Turn, it (sorry to use this dumb argument) has no flavor whatsoever, and should be disallowed. So Disallow Volt Switch.

    Getting it out of the way in the beginning Allow Sun-Based Recovery, Wish, Rest, and Pain Split. Disallow All Other Options. All of the options that I feel should be allowed, either allow us to properly do our job, or cement our place on Sun Teams.

    Sun-Based recovery, is perhaps one of the best ways for us to cement Malaconda's place on Sun-Teams. This is because, either you rely on the /unreliable/ LumRest in Rain for recovery or Wish-Protect which almost makes Malaconda unusable with its 4MSS as it is. Sun-Based Recovery would allow Malaconda at the cost of ONE moveslot to heal its HP reliably only in sun. Outside of LumRest, I feel that Malaconda should have the option of having recovery without running Lum Berry to add to the bulky pivot idea we are going for.

    Wish is an interesting discussion, although I understand DLC's post, I feel as if WIsh will once again, cement Malaconda's place as a team supporter, and not a sweeper or even necessarily a wall. Wish's utility at healing other members of the team is invaluable for Sun teams. It is also a strong reason for wanting to use Wish to heal on a Rain Team. However, for the use of Wish on a team other than Rain, we /give up/ one of Malaconda's greatest assets, Harvest. This, along with other moves that will be discussed later, will dissuade users from having a sub-optimal version of a wish passer.

    For Rest I would like for you to refer to Nyktos' post as he explains my feelings towards it perfectly.

    Pain Split is the most non-competitive move considering all of the other recovery options we have that we almost HAVE to allow it. It is so outclassed that it is not even funny.

    As for things we should not allow, set recovery moves such as recover should not be allowed. These almost play exactly like a Wish or Synthesis, except for their massive reliability outside of Sun. These moves do not add any substantial benefits for Sun-Teams, not do they benefit from being on a Sun-Team. These moves practically beg for Rainaconda.

    Leech Seed is quite honestly, one of the absolute worst moves we can give to Malaconda. It can allow us to beat random would be counters, whereas keeping us perpetually healthy when in conjunction with Harvest. Leech Seed also doesn't provide any help in us countering the things that we need to. Leech Seed also provides /reliable/ healing as shown with Ferrothorn, who, although has no form of /reliable/ recovery as we define it, is able to heal itself quite reliably through the use of Leech Seed. It is a move, that, although it may seem extremely useful on paper, in practice, would allow to many bad things to potentially occur.

    That is my two-cents on the whole Non-Competitive move scene. Feel free to disagree on any of my points.
  8. Nyktos

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    This is exactly the sort of argument I was referring to in my previous post, and it just doesn't make sense with the Pokémon we're building. Malaconda is a supporting player, not a centrepiece. Malaconda will find its way onto sun teams through defensive synergy with the playstyle and (hopefully) some useful support options. Moonlight does not make those aspects of Malaconda any more attractive, it just makes Malaconda a better Pokémon overall when it's used in sunlight. Sun teams will be running Malaconda even without Moonlight, and non-sun teams aren't going to throw Ninetales on the there just so Malaconda can heal more. Meanwhile, Moonlight is just as bad as Recover in its ability to allow for the likes of the Occa set I talked about before.

    If people want to argue for Moonlight I would really like to see a concrete example or two of how Moonlight actually helps us achieve our goals in a way that LumRest doesn't.
  9. capefeather

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    Glad we could all agree on Rest, Leech Seed and 50% recovery moves ^_^ Wish and sun-based recovery are more contentious, though. For the sun-based recovery moves, I can definitely see comparisons to Fire Fang, but I can also see comparisons to Wood Hammer. Keep in mind that Wish is not really like the other 50% recovery moves. The turn required to set it up makes it a lot worse as a self-healing option (unless you use up a slot on Protect and even then...), and passing it to a teammate sounds great and all but it's always harder than it sounds. So I guess I don't think there's been much of a decisive argument either way, and I think that it will depend on heavily on whether Wish is considered anti-concept, rather than whether Wish might break Malaconda (which I currently really doubt). Pain Split has been deemed non-competitive based on feedback on it.

    Stat-altering moves and status moves have been brought up a little bit, and so I'd like to move to them next. I'm not sure that a blanket assessment on all of the stat boosters is the right way to go... or maybe it is. With the stat boosters, we must answer three questions:

    • Are stat boosters generally anti-concept, or do only specific ones have that effect?
    • Which of the stat boosters are actually significantly competitive?
    • Which stat boosters could potentially have a large impact on how "broken" Malaconda may get?

    At the moment, only Bulk Up / Coil / Curse, Dragon Dance, Shell Smash and Shift Gear stick out to me as boosters that could have a significant impact. Swords Dance might be in that group, too, but I'm skeptical, as plenty of defensive Pokemon have Swords Dance and never use them. Shell Smash and Shift Gear are just kind of O_O and I don't think there's much of anything to justify allowing them. With Dragon Dance, keep in mind that Terrakion and Keldeo still outrun Malaconda with a +1 boost, so it would really depend on the impact of getting the jump on certain slower Pokemon. Coil is probably where the money is, and I can see the argument against it. Bulk Up / Coil / Curse boosts Malaconda's weaker Defense stat, which may remind people of Aurumoth, but the Speed is where the difference lies. Again, though, any of these could probably be slammed as anti-concept. I wouldn't be so quick to say that a bulky sweeper would be anti-concept in itself, but none of these really tie us to sun, so...

    Actually the three questions also apply to the status moves and probably all the other moves as well, so *shrugs*

    Also I moved the phazing moves and Protect down. Dragon Tail was already allowed so I guess the other phazing moves are in a similar situation to Volt Switch.
  10. RivRivRiv

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    First off, status moves. I'm going to discuss each status condition and then give my thoughts on what moves, if any, Malaconda should be given to inflict them.

    PARALYSIS - Being able to paralyse the opponent is great. For a Pokemon with Malaconda's speed it is nothing short of excellent. Indeed paralysis serves as a great deterrent to setup sweepers that some us seem to fear will make Malaconda a liability. I think giving Malaconda the ability to paralyse is a no-brainer and there even exists the perfect move to do it - Glare. While the 90% accuracy is inferior to Thunder Wave the ability to paralyse Ground types (i.e. Landorus) will come in very handy.

    SLEEP - I love sleep-inducing moves us much as the next guy, but I'm not convinced that Malaconda needs one as the messed up sleep mechanics would only help Malaconda against those that threaten him. For example, putting a counter to sleep as it switches in then hitting it with Dragon Tail effectively puts that counter out of action. If a sleep-inducing move is to be allowed I certainly don't want it to be reliable so I would only except the ones with terrible accuracy like Hypnosis and Grass Whistle. Sort of separately, I do support Yawn to force switches rather than cause sleep. This would require trapping moves to be disallowed.

    BURN - This would make Malaconda very hard to take down. Halving the attack of non-Fire type threats makes Malaconda very hard to counter and would be very anti-competitive. No burning moves.

    CONFUSION - Is largely useless. I can't think of a single reason to disallow it, but I can't think of a good reason to actually use it either.

    As far as stat-altering moves go, the only boosting move I would support is Growth. The increased effect under sunlight obviously makes Malaconda good in sun, but I'm more interested in having the ability to Baton Pass these boosts to a sun sweeper to make sun better.

    As an aside, +2 HP Fire in Sun does some serious damage to Scizor in sun even with a negative nature (which I imagine many people will be running Careful). I'm not sure what to make of this, as Scizor is invariably going to OHKO Malaconda before any of the follow scenarios can occur, but I'll put it out there:

    Show Hide
    Code:
    +2 0- SpA Malaconda Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in sun:
        316-376 (92.12 - 109.62%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
    
    +2 0- SpA Malaconda Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor in sun:
        252-300 (73.25 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    
    +2 0- SpA Malaconda Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Scizor in sun:
        272-324 (79.3 - 94.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    


    Haze/Clear Smog should be allowed to prevent setup sweepers, but I can't see them getting much use over Roar/Whirlwind which should also be allowed.

    After supporting Wish earlier I have to say I've been won over to a degree by the combination of Rest on Ninetales and Heal Bell/Aromatherapy on Malaconda. This allows healing for the one Pokemon sun really needs to keep healthy (and lets be honest, Ninetales can afford to sacrifice a moveslot for Rest) without being too overpowered and allowing massive healing of most other team members. I'm not withdrawing my support for Wish, but I'd be less disappointed with it being disallowed as long as Heal Bell/Aromatherapy are allowed.

    EDIT: So far as I can tell from some brief calculations boosting Defence to +3 using Stockpile doesn't have a huge effect on our physical counters (all Scizor variants except Bulky Swords Dance still OHKO, and Infernape still OHKO's in sun). It does however help Malaconda potentially survive Shell Smashed Cloyster's Icicle Spear and KO with a combination of Power Whip and Sucker Punch, and better deal with Gyarados. So at this stage it's a tentative allow Stockpile from me.
  11. srk1214

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    Moving back to the already mentioned things, I'm now leaning towards allowing Wish and disallowing Sun-based recovery

    Now moving on. First the idk where to place ems.

    Detect / Protect - Allow. The only fear is that Malaconda could use this to abuse LumRest et al strategies even in Rain, giving Malaconda two 50% chances to regenerate the berry... but it has to give up a moveslot to do so. I don't think it's broken in the slightest. Honestly, even a wish+protect set is inferior to LumRest as far as I can tell.

    Roar / Whirlwind - Allow. Sun could use a shuffler and since Malaconda dies to any remotely common physical attacker, this isn't a concern.


    stat alterers.

    These are mostly harmless so Allow Clear Smog/Haze. Malaconda would rather use Punishment on CM Latias anyway.

    Disallow all moves that boost Speed: so Disallow Agility, Automatize, Flame Charge, Rock Polish, Dragon Dance, Shift Gear, Quiver Dance, and Shell Smash

    Remembering Malaconda's horrific 4MSS on offensive sets and its limited coverage, however, I think we can allow many offensive boosters that don't boost speed: so Allow Bulk Up, Coil, Curse, Swords Dance

    Disallow the defensive boosters. As with Leech Seed, these can create an unbreakable great wall: so Disallow Cosmic Power, Stockpile, and Defend Order

    Belly Drum and Growth may seem to get a little out of hand, but even these might be allowable... for now though I'll say disallow.



    And status moves.

    Allow Yawn, Confuse Ray, Teeter Dance, Aromatherapy, Heal Bell, and Refresh

    Disallow Will-o-Wisp, Lovely Kiss, Sleep Powder, Spore, Glare, Stun Spore, Thunder Wave
  12. Inferblaze

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    We don´t want Malaconda to make the same that other sun pokemons.

    We already have dugtrio to be the team tramper so Disallow Block / Mean Look / Spider Web

    Malaconda is a tank so we need tank moves, and our counters are physical attackers and no stallers son Allow Taunt and Disallow any def boost move

    Ninetales in survival is the worst in the climate pokemon, with stealth rock weakness switching is a pain, Malacanda comes to help countering Politeod and using rapid spin, so wish is never gonna be better for Mala that rest or synthesis, but if he can help ninetales, well he is doing one thing for what we make him so Allow Wish
  13. Vann Accessible

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    On the subject of Stat Boosting moves, may I point something out?

    Let's be honest. Malaconda itself doesn't need boosting moves. He is a defensive pivot. Defense boosting moves like Stockpile and Iron Defense would just break Malaconda in conjunction with Lum+Rest. On the offensive side, when's the last time you saw a Blissey use Work Up? Granted, Malaconda's attack stat is okay, but attacking isn't his role. He's a pivot. I think the real reason to ever even consider giving Malaconda boosting moves are the possibilities of boost passing with Baton Pass.

    With that in mind, may I introduce, the Pinch Berries. (Quoted from Smogon.)


    Liechi If the holder's HP reaches 25% or below, its Attack is raised by one stage.
    Ganlon If the holder's HP reaches 25% or below, its Defense is raised by one stage.
    Salac If the holder's HP reaches 25% or below, its Speed is raised by one stage.
    Petaya If the holder's HP reaches 25% or below, its Special Attack is raised by one stage. Apicot If the holder's HP reaches 25% or below, its Special Defense is raised by one stage.
    Lansat If the holder's HP reaches 25% or below, its critical hit ratio is raised.
    Starf If the holder's HP reaches 25% or below, a random stat is raised by two stages.


    Now, in conjunction with Harvest and Substitute, Pinch Berries ARE stat boosting moves. Simply switch into something that can't damage Malaconda much, set up a sub as they run, and continue to set up subs as your opponent knocks them away until the berry activates, and then Baton Pass to a sweeper. This would be an easily stopped strategy with Taunt or Encore or Phazing, but a potentially lethal one.

    While Malaconda could use any of these berries himself in any number of ways (while simultaneously forfeiting Lum Berry) if Baton Pass were allowed, this in turn would allow Malaconda to pass a boost of a single stat to any one of its team mates, except in the case of the Straf Berry, which, most likely, will have to be banned from use on Malaconda, as it would essentially make Malaconda have Moody, without the downside, in the sun! That ain't good!

    A practical example: In the instance of the Salac Berry, do you know how many fire types, burdened with average speed, and great defensive synergy with Malaconda, could benefit from even a single speed boost to become great sweepers? Provided you had accrued enough speed boosts, or used Glare, you might get that bulky sub onto your sweeper intact.

    Let us name a few:

    Darmanitan (resists Fire, Ice and Bug)
    Infernape (resists Fire, Ice, and 4X resists Bug)
    Victini (resists Fire, Ice and Fighting)
    Heatran (immune to Fire, resists Flying and Ice, and 4x resists Bug, is still viable in sand)
    Charizard (resists Fire and Fighting, 4x resists Bug)

    And don't you tell me your inner child didn't just pee a little at the thought of Charizard maybe being viable in OU.

    Finally, with the best synergy of all....

    Chandelure (IMMUNE to fire AND fighting, resists ice AND 4x resists bug).

    Holy crap. Forget the Choice Scarves on these guys. Sun just got a bunch of new potential sweepers!

    Consider all that when thinking about whether or not to give Malaconda real boosting moves, as well as Baton Pass. I'd really hate to see Boost Passing Malaconda break sun.

    Disallow ALL Stat Boosting Moves.

    _______________

    As for the other things up for discussion:

    The Wish VS Heal Bell/Rest Debate.

    Wish passing from Malaconda works better with Politoed than it does for Ninetales, and that goes against everything this CAP is supposed to be. Wish also gives Malaconda a reliable self healing option in the rain, which is also against the concept. For the purposes of healing Ninetales, I would prefer the combination of Rest Ninetales and Heal Bell Malaconda, as this combination works better for sun than it does for rain. Ninetales, who often runs Pain Split, can also afford to give up a moveslot for Rest.

    Let me show you exactly why Rest/Heal Bell is better than Wish Passing for Sun.

    Common Wish Pass scenario for Ninetales:
    Ninetales is at mid to low health and Stealth Rock is up. You want Malaconda to pass a Wish to heal her. While Malaconda covers two of Ninetales three weaknesses, but if the opponent uses a rock move it's a safe bet for them either way. Is passing a Wish going to matter at all if Stealth Rocks and/or an attack kills Ninetales on the switch?

    Common Wish Pass scenario for Politoed:
    Politoed is at mid to low health and Stealth Rock is up. You want Malaconda to pass a Wish to heal him. Luckily, Politoed is not weak to Stealth Rock and Malaconda resists both its weaknesses, making the opponent hesitant to use Grass or Electric moves. It's a reasonably safe bet.

    Common Rest/Heal Bell scenario for Ninetales:
    Ninetales switches in on Ferrothorn to change the weather and is at mid to low HP. It can use Rest as the opponent swaps out to Politoed to change the weather back. Switch out to Malaconda as Politoed uses Scald or Toxic or whatever. Heal Bell. Boom. Ninetales is alive, healthy and awake, as is Malaconda, and Politoed has to run. Sun has the momentum.

    Common Rest/Heal Bell scenario for Politoed:
    Politoed switches in on Heatran to change the weather and is at mid to low HP. It can use Rest as the opponent swaps out to Ninetales to change the weather back. UH-OH! Ninetales will fry Malaconda with a sun-boosted fire move Malaconda if it tries to switch in to use Heal Bell. It might even 2HKO with Fire Blast... Curses and drat! Politoed is stuck asleep and sun has the momentum.

    Allow Aromatherapy / Heal Bell / Refresh.
    Disallow Wish.

    Allow Clear Smog and Haze.
    Roar and Whirlwind are better, but that's no reason to exclude them outright.
    Allow Protect/Detect. Protect is always handy to scout and gather passive healing or Toxic damage.
    Allow Moonlight / Synthesis / Morning Sun. Tie Malaconda to the sun. If we opt to run a different berry, why shouldn't there be an option to use a somewhat less effective healing move?
    Allow Roar / Whirlwind. Sun could use a good phazer and these moves are preferable to Dragon Tail, in that they force out opponents behinds subs.
    Allow Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance. Why not. Parafusion sets are fun. And what about Swagger? Is that included in this category?
    Allow Glare. Parashuffle sets, and a nice niche stunning Ground types and Volt Absorbers.
    Disallow Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder / Spore / Yawn. Malaconda should not be able to sleep its counters on the switch. I include Yawn here because Roar and Whirlwind are better phazing moves. Hypnosis might have low enough accuracy to be considered.
    Disallow Will-O-Wisp. Same logic as above. The ability to burn its physical attacking counters on the switch would make them noncounters.
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    I mean no personal offence, but isn't this sorta weird. Curse / Coil / BU Malconda with Rest basically makes it unbeatable on the physical side of things (while boosting you impressive attack up a bit more), while on the special side of things you are almost untouchable anyway. When you need like Heatran (under sunlight), Hydreigon under sunlight, and like Volcarona to take this thing down with special attacks, is't boosting its physical defense (ie its weak spot) sorta making it into that great wall you are worried about?

    This is a fairly good point. The issue I have with Wish, is that it actually is pretty easy for Malaconda to pass Wish. It already has access to U-Turn, so it can set up a Wish, then tank a hit, and utalise the slow U-Turn, to bring your sweeper in safely, and at 100% health thanks to Wish. Obviously this pushs a strain on its moveslots, but Malaconda would be similar to Jirachi in terms of a solid wishpasser, it would just be a heck of a lot bulkier, with access to that 100% recovery in Lum Rest.

    Technically its not, as ideally our concept is to limit the usages of select types, and stat boosting moves don't affect this. However, there is a majority view that we don't want to then break sunlight (seeing as we are boosting sun) which is why most people didn't want us making a better Venusaur. So no, it doesn't really ignore the concept, although I guess it could be anti our "informal" concept of not making a sweeper.

    Which of the stat boosters are actually significantly competitive?

    Pretty much all of them. Belly Drum usually isn't competitive, but when you have massive bulk, a 100% recovery move (Lum Rest), something like Salac / Sitrus Harvest, suddenly you have a massive problem. even defensive stat boosters make Malaconda even harder to deal with, especially when it has that instant recovery, paired with moves such as Toxic. The obvious risk is us ending up with something like a Cosmic Power 'Chansey', with a 100% healing move and a super bitch to beat. Phazing is always a way of dealing with it, until you realise you struggle against last pokemon versions. Its why Sub DD Nite, CM Reuniclus and Cosmic Power Sigilyph are so frustrating to deal with, since you can phaze them, but at the end of the day they will still be alive and ready for that set up.

    Which stat boosters could potentially have a large impact on how "broken" Malaconda may get?

    Discussed this above, but pretty much all of them. Belly Drum makes us almost untankable, Growth opens up opportunities for Hidden Power + physical attacks etc etc, remember, if you don't 2KO Malaconda, then its boosting, AND getting the heal off, and the amount of pokemon that Malaconda can set up on isn't small. Its low speed is going to hold it back from sweeping, but it doesn't make stat boosting ok. Personally, I think you end up with something like Curse Ferrothorn, except you have 100% recovery, better STABs to work with, and "arguably" better bulk to work with. Its just so hard to give it stat boosting moves, and NOT break it, as we sorta lose control of this CAP, and risk it quickly getting out of hand. Id be included to hit all boosting moves except maybe haze / clear smog but thats just me.
  15. Malkyrian

    Malkyrian

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    Going to stick to just the moves on the Need Discussion list which I have a real opinion on, which admittedly isn't too many of them...

    Allow Detect/Protect. There's little to no reason to not allow these, since they don't really break anything. The flipside is that there's little reason to actually use them in a moveset, but I'm of the opinion that a move that won't be even potentially overpowered should be allowed by default and left up to the movepool submitters to decide on.

    Disallow Flame Charge. I'm putting this separately of the other speed-boosting moves, since while those are pure support, this is an attacking move. Normally we wouldn't worry about that, since it has only 50 Base Power, but then we see the elephant in the room: Scizor is one of our biggest "threatened by" Pokemon. With absolutely no investment and a neutral nature, Malaconda does 65.3 - 76.96% to standard Scizor with Flame Charge in sun, and now outspeeds it for an easy 2HKO. If Malaconda invests in physical defense, Bullet Punch essentially becomes a non-issue. With max Attack and an Adamant nature, Scizor will take 88.62 - 104.95%. I hope we're seeing the problem with this.

    Disallow Belly Drum. Hey let's give Belly Drum to a Pokemon with not one but two forms of 80 BP priority, lots of bulk, the ability to viably run a Sitrus Berry, and the ability to viably run LumRest. What could possibly go wrong?

    Allow Glare. I think this is one of the most interesting possibilities for fulfilling the concept we have available to us. The whole idea behind our concept is to explore what makes the types that are used as used as they are. One of the key advantages to running Pokemon immune to Electric is having what is essentially an immunity to paralysis. So what happens to these Pokemon when they lose that advantage? How much of a motivator is this behind their usage? Exploring questions like this is, I think, what justifies this process as a competitive endeavor.
  16. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!
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    On stat boosting moves:

    I'm actually going to go against popular opinion here and say I think Malaconda should get some form of viable stat-boosting move. I think it'll aid the concept by allowing Malaconda to make the pokemon it counters a liability - having a pokemon like Politoed against it might not just mean losing the 1v1, it would have consequences for the rest of its team too. Extra pressure on the pokemon Malaconda is meant to beat would inevitably be a help to the concept so long as we can avoid giving it too much assistance against its counters.

    The question is, then, what boosting move(s) would do this? Sadly, that's the part I'm unsure about - I can't pick any specific boosting move and say "this one definitely isn't going to skew Malaconda's counters." If we could prove that was the case for one, I'd be very enthusiastic about adding it to Malaconda's movepool, but until then I can't throw my support behind either allowing or disallowing boosting moves.
  17. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
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    Allow Moonlight/Synthesis/Morning Sun

    Sun-reliant healing moves have low PP. That means, in order to get the most use out of them, they have to be used alongside sun. This means using Moonlight on Malaconda encourages Ninetales to be used a teammate. Our concept is to equalize types, and we hope to accomplish that by making sun more popular (sun doesn't need to be made more powerful imo, it's actually a strong weather from what OU players have told me.) By giving Malaconda Moonlight, we are directly encouraging players to use sun alongside Malaconda instead of other weathers. By using Malaconda's traits, most notably Harvest and ability to safely combat rain, Malaconda can establish itself as an excellent Pokemon to build a team around alongside Ninetales. Adding Moonlight only strengthens this bond. To those who challenge the idea of having CAP5 as a centerpiece, I must disagree. Building a team around a defensive core can be extremely effective. Moonlight would help make said core theoretically more effective in sun than other weather, which is what we want to achieve afaik.
  18. srk1214

    srk1214 You spin my head right round
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    I agree that it seemed counter intuitive. But I was thinking about what a Malaconda using Coil/Curse/Bulk Up + LumRest could even do with its last two moveslots. It wasn't much. Let's suppose Malaconda is running 252/252+ Defense:

    It still loses to Heatran, Infernape, Volcarona, Hydreigon, Scizor, etc as usual. Meanwhile, Malaconda can actually be set up on, even as it boosts itself. Dragonite/Salamence can Dragon Dance up on it. Breloom and Lucario can set up Swords Dances. Malaconda can also be Tricked at which point it becomes much more useless. The list goes on.

    Basically, Malaconda opts to run Coil/Bulk Up/Curse as an alternative to a team support move. Which I'm not sure Malaconda can really do. Its dual stab is horrific coverage.

    Oh, also, the distinction is that +1 Defense forces Malaconda to make a choice about what to deal with. If Malaconda wants to still counter everything special by running 252/252+ Special Defense, Malaconda loses hard to Physical threats even at +1Def. In the other extreme scenario, yes Malaconda could run 252/252+ Defense, but then it can't take on Latios, etc.
  19. vyomov

    vyomov

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    What about Power split

    Hey guys
    Kinda new to the smogon forums
    I would like to introduce the topic of Power Split: this is because Malaconda has horrible SpA but that could be used to guard against Alakazam Focus Blast, Chandelure Fire Blast, etc. At the same time, it ups its own attack vs attackers which could be the difference.
    As for other moves brought up by my highly-experienced colleagues here, I would support the banning of Leech Seed, Coil, etc.
    However, one move that I do want to introduce is Calm Mind. This should be allow because:
    a) Most people using special attacks will not hit Malaconda anyways and most people facing Malaconda will switch for a physical attacker like Breloom
    b)Malaconda's SpA stat is horrible, so it will require couple of boosts to actually hit something hard
    c) May help with something like clear smog hitting bug types, after 4 calm mind boosts might 3HKO and prevent bug types setting up on Malaconda. Otherwise bug types will just use Quiver Dance, set up and laugh and then sweep whole team.
    E.g Volcarona, quiver dance, mala switches out, sweep.
    Even if Mala stays, Fiery Dance(sun-boosted) will hit too hard and will prepare a sweep whereas a Calm Mind can help deal with this
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Malaconda can already do more than just beat the Pokemon it is facing. It can use Pursuit as Politoed switches out, slowly wearing it down and thus greatly helping in the weather war. Also the CAP most likely will have Rapid Spin, which means that every Pokemon that is walled by Malaconda is an invitation for the CAP to come in and spin away entry hazards, which is HUGE. Those two factors alone are enough to give to Malaconda great team support options, and when you add Heal Bell to the mix, i don't think that the CAP needs stat-up moves at all in order to do more than just wall some Pokemon.
  21. BrianFantana

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    Straight from Birkal and ginganinja's Spread Submission post
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    Sitrus Berry:

    252 HP / 72 Def / 180+ SDef
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire 50.23 - 59.44%


    Sitrus Berry and Occa Berry are Malaconda's best options if it wants to completely counter Specs/Calm Mind Latios HP Fires in the Sun. I figure plenty of Sun teams would run that, so giving it some concept friendly recovery on top of that (it might KO Latios but it will come out pretty wrecked itself) would be invaluable - especially if it were also the team's spinner.

    With a 252HP/252SpD Careful set, Malaconda is also taken below 50% by Thundy-T and Landorus's Focus Blasts - running a Sitrus or Chople berry would help it avoid the 2HKO (though Lando could still manage it, it wouldn't be likely, especially considering Focus Miss). These two, particularly Thundy-T, who is a main concern in the threatlist, would be good for Malaconda to counter, and it would struggle to do so with LumRest. As before, if it has some recovery after that it can spin later or check something else.

    So given the solid uses of Sitrus and certain resist berries, I'm in favour of allowing Synthesis, Moonlight and Morning Sun.

    It should be apparent from my reasoning that I'm also firmly in favour of allowing Rapid Spin. Certainly, Malaconda would become an immensely solid Rapid Spinner on non-Sun teams too, but boy could Sun use it. Sun's current options for spinners aren't good; Forretress hates boosted Fire attacks, Starmie's Water STAB is wrecked, and Donphan synergises poorly with Dugtrio. Many of them run Espeon or Xatu - but their utility is highly limited beyond Magic Bounce. So I think that while it may give Malaconda metagame presence outside of sun, it would still be appreciated by Sun teams more than any other type - which would ultimately boost their viability/usage.
  22. vyomov

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    Boosting/cutting moves and other moves as well

    Most people do not want to give Malaconda the traditional ones(Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, etc) so why not give it these?
    1) Charge
    Advantage: a) Allows Malaconda to hit Gyarados hard as well as other flying types and boosts SpD as well
    b) Only boosts one stage and thus not broken like Amnesia, also does not boost offense much (STAB attacks unboosted)
    2) Feather Dance
    Advantage: Prevents people from blindly Mach Punching Malaconda because after Feather Dance Mach Punch a gimmick
    Apart from those consider these as well:
    1) Telekinesis: What better than this? As your opponent switches out, Telekinesis ensures Power Whip hits hard
    2) Gravity: Assuming the objective is to diversify the metagame, why not? Pokemon like Skarmory won't feel as comfortable switching into Malaconda knowing it could switch out for Dugtrio and Earthquake will OHKO
    3) Hail: If we want to reduce the disparity between the rain empire and other weather teams, this might not be a bad idea. Abomasnow is always hit hard by a Ninetales or Politoed and while this can't counter Ninetales, it can make Politoed a little scared because of the grass stab.
    4) Aqua Ring: While Leech Seed is broken because of the damage to opponent, Aqua Ring could be a) Baton Passed and b) Keep Malaconda long enough to do some damage vs other sun teams
    5) Wonder Room: Against pokemon like Breloom, what better? Malaconda uses Wonder Room and suddenly transforms into Physical wall
  23. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight October Surprise
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    Disallow Baton Pass:

    This has been brought up before, but I wanted to make a post specifically dumping on it.

    Do to the mechanics of Harvest, it's quite possible to have a stat-boosting Berry activate twice in a round. Since Malaconda is quite bulky and slow, Substitute is a perfect move for it to use to get down to 25% or less HP. Bear in mind a Max HP Malaconda's Substitute has 108 HP.

    The best example is Salac since it allows Malaconda to Baton Pass away quickly, but it can also use Leichi or Petaya berries to accomplish the same. Taunt or Protect could be used to gain an additional turn against an attempt to phaze it away, with a filler move to round out the set. That means a third boost to the recipient.

    And then we have Starf Berry. Starf Berry gives a +2 boost to a random stat. With Harvest mechanics, that means there is potential for anything from +2Def/+2SpD to something more threatening like +2Atk/+2Eva. Here's the problem - again with Taunt (to deal with phazing) or Protect this means Malaconda has a chance for a third +2 boost. If it gets an Evasion Boost, that makes it even harder to deal with, and we're now talking about 3 chances for such a boost - and it can pass it to any Pokemon on any team.

    Obviously if Malaconda is not in Sun, this is rendered less reliable. Which other weather starter are you going to switch in? With the exception of Abomasnow, all of them are weak to STAB Grass attacks, and if Malaconda gets a +2 on its offensive stat, they are in big trouble. Since Malaconda is so bulky, it can even potentially afford to stay in and lets its Sub eat a hit.

    In short, Baton Pass and boosting berries open up a very generic niche that is boosted by sun but not completely reliant on it, and even with no Speed investment Malaconda outruns Latis at +2 Spe from a double Salac boost.

    We already have U-turn approved as a momentum move. Baton Pass merely adds a very generic niche that distracts from providing a role on a sun team to providing a much more generic role to any team.
  24. Basileus

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    Devils advocate

    I am just going to play the role of devils advocate here and see if any good counter arguments come up because some people in my opinion have justifications that....erm...aren't that good. (not naming names), but I would like to see some people argue their opinions better. The following may or may or may not sound like the best or dumbest post ever depending on your opinion. So without further ado: ...

    So I know flame charge is very contriversal and that no-one is going to want it but I think that it just HAS to be allowed. It literally goes against the theme of this cap to NOT have this move.
    Think about it.(sorry,long (open)
    The main purpouse, type equalizer, is trying to decrease the use of almost ALL types That are really common in OU including Steel, water, fighting, and dragons. With water moves, fire moves, fighting moves, ground moves, flying moves, and psychic moves not allowed malaconda has absolutely no way to counter any fighting, steel, and most dragons! Water types are the only thing malaconda covers nicely right now along with latios/latias! With ice fang it gets some dragon coverage, but several dragons such as hydregion and literally all steel and fighting types in OU still have a HUGE advantage over malaconda right now. And if 3/4 of the metagame completely p'wn him than what is the point of even using him for the other 1/4th? As of now a mere 1.5/4 of the things we origonally tried to counter are now themselves counters to malaconda! You guys are gonna say this is too OP and flame charge is going to get wrecked while my comment does nothing to change opinions but I will continue anyway because, idk, why not? I think that flame charge on malaconda would make it very viable in OU.

    The main issue with mal besides typing is his speed. Without speed malaconda faces major problems in OU almost always moving last, it needs to be quick if it wants to be able to succeed in OU. Flame charge will turn malaconda into a great starter. Just imagine if malaconda was able to have a decent move to reflect steel types and raise speed in the process? That would mean starting with malaconda would wreck absolutely anyone trying to set up with ferrothorn/foretress/skarm/etc. and cause an increase in speed turning malaconda into a pokemon that can now outspeed and challenge other pokemon such as dragonite, scizor, magnezone, and several others. So now you might think "wait, doesn't that mean malaconda will be super OP??" but no, it won't be because if U-turn is excluded from the move pool than air ballon heatran becomes a super amazing counter. Not to mention how scizor's U-turn will tear malaconda to shreds because flame wheel can't garuntee an OHKO. Not to mention how BULLET PUNCH has priority allowing scizor's to still counter mala. It would be good because it could cause an even bigger threat to various steel types while still allowing both Heatran and scizor to be counters. The major problem here though is sun teams, and flame wheel will cause sun teams to be very OP especially with grass coverage on malaconda. I know people are concerned about sun teams, but we are tryin to awnser a question to help us better understand the core concepts of typing, not balance the meta game. The awnser to the entire point of this cap might actually be that "it is impossible for one Pokemon to alone balance the meta game without making another type unbalanced" and therefore to awnser the biggest questions of this cap we might want to allow flame charge. Let the people decide in Thier final move pools if it is too OP and just ban U-turn from being in the final move pool if flame charge is already in it.


    Now there is another solution to speed without giving mal, fire moves. This is to give him the ability to paralyze other pokemon, so for those who will not be convinced I would like to propose that glare/thunder wave be allowed to help malaconda not be a horridly slow OU pokemon. Aditionally, swords dance should also be allowed because if malaconda isnt going to have fire moves, than 100 attack isn't going to help malaconda be a good offensive poke, but 200 will. Still keeping all of malacondad counters but better helping it to threaten some powerful advisaries.

    Next, I think that all entry hazards should be disallowed mainly because it would become overly complicated with mal having a rediculous amount of viable moves, but also because they aren't even necissaryily important when several stealth rockers that suppourt malaconda already exsist. This being said, viable entry hazard moves take away from Malaconda's ability to be a good physical sweep.

    When it comes to baton pass it is basically unessisary with U-turn and volt switch, but that isn't even the real reason it should be disallowed, which is the fact that Pokemon should be passing to malaconda, not the other way around. Malaconda without star raising moves and sub would be pointless while a physical sweeper in the sun that can pass a sword dance or speed would be beyond overpowered. However, if absolutely all status raising moves, volt switch, and U-turn are all overlooked, which I don't advise, than baton pass might not be so bad...

    Final notes:

    I would like taunt to be allowed, it couldn't hurt and will further increase the viability of malaconda as a counter to things like entry hazard setters but I see Plenty of other moves as more useful than taunt.

    Someone suggested wonder room earlier, which I can't predict how that would effect cap5 since it is just extremely unique and I don't see it in OU but I love the idea and think it should be discussed.

    Definetly disallow belly drum because that would be like asking for malaconda to be in ubers with sitrus/harvest and extreme speed with 100att/115hp dear god that would be like if linoone but industructible!

    Edit: all othe moves I abstain from because they aren't very important to CAP5 IMO.
  25. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    Detect / Protect

    No point in not allowing these. Detect and Protect are only useful in conjunction with Leech Seed, and even then it's a stretch to include both moves on the same set because of the 4mss Malaconda has. However, a set of Leech Seed, Protect, and two STABs turns Malaconda into a incredibly annoying stall tank that can shut down virtually any Special attacker. Protect is not a useful move unless used in tandem with Leech Seed, but turns Malaconda into a Heatran slayer with Leech Seed. Fortunately, Leech Seed is a disallowed move which relegates Protect and Detect to marginal roles.Allow Protect/Detect


    Roar / Whirlwind- Roar and Whirlwind are nice in my opinion because they let Malaconda shuffle through opponents while not explicitly threatening them. Roar and Whirlwind prevent an opponent from just switching into Malaconda and seizing all of the match's momentum. Malaconda is supposed to threaten a host of Pokemon, but can Malaconda really "threaten" opponents if they can just switch to their Scizor or Heatran and shaft Malaconda's team? Roar and Whirlwind let Malaconda at least hold its own against a team that may carry one of its counters. Most OU Pokemon have ways around their counters, be it a weak non-STAB coverage move, a move like Leech Seed, or just enough raw power to break the Pokemon that threaten it. Malaconda has none of those, and turns into a real sitting duck against Heatran and Scizor. At least Malaconda can salvage some form of advantage when playing against an opponent with Scizor or Heatran, so I would allow Roar/Whirlwind

    Agility / Autotomize / Flame Charge / Rock Polish

    First, no Flame Charge. Ever. However, I have no problem with Agility, Autotomize, or Rock Polish. Moves that boost Speed by two levels are pro-concept and give Malaconda a way to definitively defeat its counters on a predicted switch-in. Pokemon like Jellicent, Gengar, or Latios/Latias all have ways to annoy Malaconda such as Will-O-Wisp or Toxic (without Lum Berry), Focus Blast critical hits, or Trick/critical Draco Meteor. Agility, Autotomize, and Rock Polish all give Malaconda security against the Pokemon that it should counter, but do nothing to defeat the Pokemon that should counter it. Even if Malaconda had +2 Speed, it still cannot break Breloom, Toxicroak, Heatran, or Scizor. Meanwhile, Pokemon that have a slight chance against Malaconda (Latios, Reflect Latias) can have those chances erased if Malaconda were to have +2 Speed. Allow Agility, Rock Polish, and Autotomize. Disallow Flame Charge.

    Belly Drum

    Belly Drum is extremely pointless. We chose a moderate Attack stat for a reason, and we're not trying to invent ways for Malaconda to defeat its counters. Belly Drum pretty much says: "if you can successfully use this move you can beat some counters". Belly Drum does nothing to defeat the Pokemon that should counter it, and is overall a pretty useless move on Malaconda. Malaconda defeats the Pokemon it should threaten with an unboosted Base 100 Attack stat, and Malaconda's primary issue is not a lack of Attack power. Disallow Belly Drum.

    Bulk Up / Coil / Curse

    The only stat I can see Malaconda boosting in a pro-concept manner is Speed. Bulk Up and Coil do nothing to defeat what Malaconda is designed to defeat, yet do provide some bulk to take hits from the powerful Physical attackers Malaconda is supposed to be defeated by. Although I concede that Malaconda is not beating Scizor or Breloom thanks to Bulk Up or Coil, it's not beating anything it's supposed to beat either. Disallow Curse, Bulk Up, and Coil.


    Clear Smog / Haze- Allow these moves. Stat-boosting Pokemon usually have their way with bulky walls such as Malaconda and Ferrothorn, and some of Malaconda's counters have ways to boost their stats. Thundurus-T, for example, can laugh at Malaconda's amazing Special bulk with Nasty Plot Focus Blast, and given Malaconda's limited Attack power, can potentially defeat it one-on-one. On the other hand, some of Malaconda's counters have boosting moves. However, none of Malaconda's counters need to boost their stats to defeat Malaconda, and we should at least allow Malaconda not to be setup bait for Volcarona and Scizor (and Flame Charge Heatran o_O). Malaconda's counters still laugh at Malaconda whether or not it has Haze/Clear Smog, but at least Malaconda can prevent those Pokemon from sweeping its team with Haze or Clear Smog. Allow Haze/Clear Smog.


    Cosmic Power / Defend Order / Stockpile

    I'm opposed to Defense boosting moves and Special Defense boosting moves because Malaconda can defeat its counters without boosting its defenses. Furthermore, these moves have somewhat limited viability. Disallow Cosmic Power, Defend Order, and Stockpile.

    Dragon Dance / Shift Gear

    Hmm...On the surface I'm not opposed to these moves really. I guess the only problem is that they allow a Jolly Malaconda to outspeed and defeat Volcarona with Crunch after Stealth Rock, preventing Volcarona from countering Malaconda in all cases. On the other hand, Malaconda can use Dragon Dance as a catch-all for the Pokemon it's supposed to counter such as Politoed and Rotom-W, preventing them from trolling Malaconda with Perish Song, Trick, or Focus Blast. Malaconda's terrible Speed still lets it be outsped by Latios, Latias, and most importantly, Keldeo and Terrakion after a boost, and those Pokemon OHKO Malaconda even with a boost. The only issue I have is that if Malaconda were to get two boosts off, it pretty much breaks the concept and turns into the bulkiest bulky sweeper this side of Extreme Killer Arceus. Disallow Shift Gear. Allow Dragon Dance (maybe).

    Growth

    lol Disallow/

    Swords Dance

    Disallow because the only thing it can literally do is give Malaconda enough power to sneak by Breloom or something.

    Quiver Dance

    vary riksy

    Shell Smash

    bahahahahhaha.
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