CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Apr 5, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Scoopapa

    Scoopapa
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    960
    I want to address various posts I've seen regarding Volt Switch and Baton Pass. Many people are making the argument that they should be disallowed because they are outclassed by U-turn. This is faulty reasoning however, because Mala is not getting U-turn automatically. It's still up to the movepool submitters to individually put U-turn in their submissions or not. Allowing Volt Switch and Baton Pass simply gives them more options if they feel U-turn is a little too powerful (for instance, Baton Pass doesn't break balloons while scouting, Volt Switch does way less damage and can be blocked by Ground-types). I think, on the basis of U-turn being allowed, that these moves should also be allowed.
  2. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    111
    DetroitLolcat, the only boosting moves you seem to support are the speed boosting ones. All the others seem inherently broken. But with a base 55 speed, Malacanda has the same speed as Machamp and and Crawdaunt. If you ran a positive speed nature and max speed EVs your speed would be 458, just shy of max speed Starmie. Can you provide a specific example of when you'd want Malaconda to be this fast, especially when he might also have Glare to slow down his opponents? What would it accomplish?

    And again, I say, the most likely reason you'd do that would be if you wantedto pass those speed boosts to a sweeper with Baton Pass. And the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to agree with Deck Knight. The consequences of boost Baton Passing with Malaconda in general with speed moves in addition to pinch berries would break Malaconda and sun in general. Malaconda is alreay going to be great at so many things why make him a boost passer too? Disallow Baton Pass. And Disallow ALL Stat Boosting Moves.

    I would've liked Ingrain Pass to be a thing, but really, Ingrain might have similar problems on Malaconda that Leech Seed did.

    Besides, with Glare in his arsenal speed passing to my list of fire types becomes less important anyway. If parashuffle Malaconda has done his job well, Darmanitan or Chandelure shouldn't have trouble sweeping anyway.
  3. Qwilphish

    Qwilphish We Create The Technology
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    394
    Disallow ALL Stat Boosting Moves

    Malaconda isn't meant to be a sweeper, nor is it meant to be a wall. Malaconda is meant to be a Bulky Pivot for sun teams, and giving it a move that almost dictates us staying in with Malaconda for multiple turns is, at this point, extremely anti-concept.

    There is absolutely no need for boosting moves, as nothing that we have decided to either wall (Rotom-W, Thundy-T) or threaten (Latis, Politoed) require a boost for us to do our job. The way that I see it is that Speed boosters turn us into a Sweeper, Defense boosters would turn us into an inpenetrable wall in conjunction with LumRest, and Attack boosters turn us into a Bully Sweeper with LumRest. These moves do not allow us to threaten the things that we used to better than we already did, and only allow us to threaten a greater variety of threats.

    For people who feel that there is a necessity for being able to boost our stats, we still have HarvestPinch Berries such as Liechi and Salac that can be used as your boosting crave. Also, because you have a berry, there is no possibility for LumRest as we would have had if we give Malaconda a boosting move.
  4. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    553
    I guess Wish is something I didn't really address before (or I did, but I unfairly painted it with the broad brush of "healing moves"). capefeather is quite correct that the move is pretty awkward as an actual means of recovery since Malaconda doesn't really have the slot for Protect. Wish is a useful support move and probably is better looked at as one of those than as recovery. I don't have a firm position on the move yet, but I'm not strongly against it as I am other forms of recovery.

    Speaking of Protect, I don't think there's any reason to disallow it. I suppose it opens up a Toxic stall set, but I can't imagine that being very effective, especially since Malaconda's best counters are Steel-types. Malaconda has a rather severe case of four move slot syndrme, and I highly doubt that Protect would make the cut on any reasonable set, but equally I can't think of many unreasonable things you can do with it either. Leech Seed is disallowed and Toxic makes you lose even harder to Scizor and Heatran. Non-sun teams can use it to try and get Harvest to trigger more often, but given that you're still not guaranteed to get the trigger I can't imagine that will ever be better than running a move that actually does something. Allow Protect and Detect.

    Phazing is an excellent thing for Malaconda to have, and Roar or Whirlwind would be much better for it than Dragon Tail would, owing to the ability that Roar and Whirlwind have to force out Pokémon which are hiding behind substitutes. Given that several of Malaconda's targets often carry Sub, I think that's important. Phazing in general is great because it both allows Malaconda to beat set-up sweepers (a category which includes a number of Pokémon on our threatlist), and also helps you gain switch advantage by forcing out their Scizor (or whatever) and replacing it with something that you can easily switch in on with one of your other teammates. Allow Roar and Whirlwind.

    Real hazing I am much less enthusiastic about since it lacks that second useful property of phazing. That said, I don't see any real reason not to allow Haze and Clear Smog.

    On the other side of the coin we have the boosting moves. We've clearly set out Malaconda's role as being largely defensive in nature, and given the nature of both its targets and its counters, I can't imagine that it will be planning to stay in for more more than one or two turns in most cases. As such, any set that uses boosting moves with any degree of effectiveness is likely deviating from that role in a big way. I do agree with DetroitLolcat that speed-boosting moves are potentially less terrible ideas than the rest, but even those just don't really seem very relevant to our goals at all. Disallow all boosting moves.

    Aromatherapy is a pretty decent team support move which also allows non-Lum (i.e. Sitrus) sets to not instantly lose when they get burned, which is probably a good thing even even though I do want to encourage LumRest as the primary set. Allow Aromatherapy and Heal Bell. Since it's strictly inferior to those, I guess we may as well allow Refresh too.

    Finally, there's status. First of all, burn and sleep seem like terrible ideas. These are just as effective as Fire moves would be at "beating" Scizor as it switches in, and sleep does that to everything else too (burn at least doesn't hit the Fire-types). While they certainly become a lot less effective on a slow Pokémon like Malaconda, they still completely destroy the idea that certain Pokémon should be safe switchins to Malaconda. Disallow Will-O-Wisp, Lovely Kiss, Sleep Powder, and Spore. Yawn is a little different from other sleep moves in that it essentially functions as an awkward phazing moves that doesn't work with sleep clause activated. I don't at the moment have a strong opinion on that one, but I guess I'd lean toward allowing it.

    Confusion is terrible, so whatever. Allow it, disallow it, it doesn't really matter.

    Finally, paralysis. I suspect a lot of people are supporting Glare more for flavour reasons than anything else, but that doesn't mean there aren't any competitive arguments here. Scizor, for instance, isn't bothered nearly as much by paralysis as it is by other statuses, and a couple of our other counters are also slow and bulky. The problem, though, is that not all of them are. Paralysis feels the same as burn in that it can really just completely cripple something that is allegedly supposed to be able to safely switch in, and that's neither necessary nor desirable, since Malaconda hardly needs paralysis to beat its targets. That said, paralysis is almost never actually going to stop anything from beating Malaconda, it's just going to extract an arm and a leg from them in exchange. I will admit that paralysis is much less bad of an idea than burn or sleep are. Nonetheless, my position is still that we should disallow paralysis moves.

    Oh, and while it's not on the discussion list, Deck Knight's post on Baton Pass is completely on the money and says more or less exactly what I wanted to say about the move. Disallow Baton Pass.
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,995
    Baton Pass

    Baton Pass provides an alternative to U-turn, which i perosnally prefer. The main reason for my preferance of Baton Pass is that it doesn't break Heatran's Balloon, allowing Heatran to deal with Malaconda + Dugtrio easier and checking the core a bit longer. So if Baton Pass will be allowed i would only like to have Baton Pass on Malaconda's movepool.

    The reason that some people don't want to allow Baton Pass is that it will have the potential to turn Malaconda into a very good boost passer. Deck Knight showcased how Malaconda can get a +3 boost on whichever stat it wants with the use of Protect + Substitute, or even three +2 random boosts with Starf Berry. This strategy will require three moves (Baton Pass + Substitute + Protect) and will be of one-time use, making Malaconda a supporter for another Pokemon's sweep. While it is true that those sets could be used, there are certain reasons why the CAP won't become a good dedicated Baton Passer:

    1. The offensive Pokemon that can be used on sun teams are usually Fire or Grass types, such as Venusaur, Victini, Volcarona, and Darmanitan. Those Pokemon can all get OHKOed by Dragon-types on the switch, a group of Pokemon that already troubles Sun teams. Dragon Dance Dragonite, Substitute Kyurem-B, SubSD Garchomp, and Substitute Hydreigon can all abuse the fuck out of Malaconda, setting up as Malaconda tries to get into Berry activation range and easily OHKOing the Pokemon that the CAP will pass the boosts to.

    2. Many of the counters to Malaconda are phazers. Heatran, Skarmory, D-Tail Kyurem, and physically defensive Hippowdon (yeah it avoids the 2HKO from Power Whip and can stall out Malaconda by spamming Slack Off as sand slowly kills the CAP) all carry phazing moves and all of those Pokemon are extremely common Pokemon in the metagame, lowering the viability of a potential SubPass set.

    3. There are several setup sweepers other than Dragon types that trouble the SubPass set. Swords Dance Breloom freely switches into the CAP, uses Swords Dance, and then breaks the CAP's Sub with Bullet Seed, preventing the CAP from getting into Berry activation range and Baton Passing its boosts or Sub succesfully. SubDD Gyarados switches into Malaconda as it uses Substitute, lowers its Attack with Intimidate (which will be Baton Passed later), and then can procceed to stack Dragon Dances or use Substitute. If the CAP uses Crunch (remember it only has room for one attack) it can't even break Gyarados's Sub after Intimidate. The CAP has the option to use Baton Pass as Gyarados uses the first Dragon Dance, to bring in Venusaur safely (no Fire Pokemon would want to switch into Gyarados, even in sun) or just Baton Pass to a defensive Pokemon that can take care of Gyarados (Ninetales, Forretress, and Donphan can check Gyarados, but not for long). Or it can straight up attack in order to break Gyarados's Sub, which will only work if it has Payback (Crunch doesn't break the Sub, and with Power Whip SubCM Latias sets all over Malaconda's face). Even if it predicts right and breaks Gyarados's Sub, Gyarados has plenty turns to predict correctly and either setup a Sub or a DD, leaving Malaconda on a tight spot. Swords Dance Scizor walls Malaconda and can set-up on Malaconda's face, leaving as the only option to Malaconda to Baton Pass to a teammate, while Scizor breaks the Sub in the proccess. SD Lucario is in a similar boat, except that it is even more threatening to sun teams than Scizor. As i said earlier the CAP will most likely be forced to use a Dark move otherwise the Sun team will auto-lose to SubCM Latias, which means that SD Terrakion and Encore Politoed will be huge raodblocks for the CAP as well (Politoed comes in as the CAP uses Sub, then Politoed Encores the Sub). The important common trait of all those sweepers (except for Politoed) is that they can all greatly treaten sun teams after they set-up, making SubPass Malaconda a liability.

    4. The CAP will face competition with other dedicated boost passers. Mew, Gorebyss, Huntail, Gliscor, and Smeargle will all give to Malaconda competition, and each of them has its own unique advanatges over Malaconda.

    5. Sun teams don't commonly use such strategies. I already mentioned some Pokemon that use those strategies in OU, and none of them is commonly used in sun teams. This is a strong indicator that dedicated Baton Passers don't work well in sun teams, especially when they have redundant typing with sun's main sweeper, Venusaur.

    Allow Baton Pass.


    Glare / Stun Spore / Will-o-Wisp / Sleeping moves

    All those moves offer nothing new against the Pokemon that we want to beat that we don't already have, and only serve as a way to screw up our counters. Why have Glare to cripple dangerous setup sweepers such as Landorus and Garchomp when Dragon-Tail and Ice Fang do the same thing without messing with our list of counters? Those moves bring nothing positive to the table and plenty of negatives, so disallow all status moves other than Toxic.


    Whirlwind / Roar

    Whirlwind and Roar both serve as alternatives to Dragon Tail, if one prefers reliability and phazing through Subs over the added damage and the ability to phaze Magic Bounce Pokemon. There is nothing wrong with allowing those moves, so allow Whirlwind / Roar.


    Detect / Protect


    Agility / Autotomize / Flame Charge / Rock Polish

    Flame Charge is obviously anti-concept as it alows the CAP to get past some of its counters and does nothing related to the CAP's role. All the other boosting moves would be pretty bad too i think. Every single Pokemon that DLC mentioned in his post can be beaten with the right set (a LumRest set with max HP / max SpD+ and Payback can beat all those Pokemon, and no i don't consider crits a serious argument) so i don't see the need for those moves. The biggest problem with those moves is that they could turn the CAP into a sweepr, something that would derail the CAP from its intended role. A set with Power Whip / Crunch or Sucker Punch / Sub / Agility with max Atk / max Spe and Liechi Berry could be a decent sweeper after priority users are gone. Why allow this possibility when those moves bring nothing notably positive to the CAP? Disallow Agility / Autotomize / Flame Charge / Rock Polish.

    Will get to the remaining moves later...
  6. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2013
    Messages:
    82
    Detect / Protect

    Why does this even need to be explained? I think its pretty obvious that protect can't be harmful anyway. Every pokemon besides Unknown has protect, and protect has never made a pokemon OP before. 4MSS is already pretty bad for Malaconda, so I don't see much use of it anyway. The only sets I could see it on are ones with Wish or Leech Seed. I don't think it should get leech seed in the first place, and Leech Seed is already disallowed anyway. With wish I think it would be more of a good thing than a bad thing. So since its not getting leech seed, I don't see even the slightest chance of protect allowing Malaconda to counter any of its threats such as heatran. I don't think it would be in anyway OP, but I don't think it is useless either so Allow Detect/Protect

    Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis

    I think its best if we Allow Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis. Not only do these tie us to sun, but it discourages use on rain teams. I think would help sun teams see more use if we didn't limit Malaconda to one type of berry and one type of healing move. As with other moves, the biggest concern seems to be that it will allow us to beat heatran. Calcs seem to be the best way to disprove this.

    Calcs (open)
    0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Occa Berry Malaconda in sun: 130-154 (29.95 - 35.48%) -- 28.22% chance to 3HKO

    252+ Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 57-67 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- 9HKO at best


    These calcs used the Specially Defensive set for Heatran.

    So as you can see, it would take 9 hits at most from Malaconda to beat heatran.

    In order for Malaconda to make the most out of healing, it would have to heal every other turn, and moonlight only has 8 PP. It needs to attack at least 9 times to beat heatran.

    Now, it most likely would not play out like this cause I doubt anyone would actually attack every turn with their heatran or alternate between attacking and healing each turn with malaconda, but you at least get the idea. Besides, this is the worst set to use for threatening anything really. This heatran set is a walling set, not a threatening set. Most people would not use this set on heatran with one of their goals to be counter malaconda, but even then this set still counters it. And not to mention, this Malaconda set is with max investment in attack, so this is like the worst case scenario (besides hax) for heatran.


    Roar / Whirlwind

    The thing about these two I want to get out of the way first is that they aren't just inferior versions of dragon tail. Dragon Tail doesn't hit through subs, these do. I would actually like to see both Dragon Tail and Roar/Whirlwind in Malaconda's finished movepool. I say this because they all are different moves and can phaze in different circumstances. These three moves are ones you could very easily make a venn diagram with. The only difference between roar and whirlwind is roar's inability to hit soundproof pokemon, so I think I can justify not mentioning whirlwind.

    First of all, they are all phazing moves, that much is obvious. The biggest reason I want roar is so Malaconda can have a phazing move that hits through substitutes. Unlike roar, dragon tail is not affected by taunt, and it adds a little bit of damage for a little helpful boost. However, though dragon tail may do a little bit of damage, it can also harm Malaconda with rocky helmet or rough skin, roar isn't affected by them either. In that same way, Dragon Tail can activate other things like red cards (which can be good or bad), it also removes focus sashes and air balloons from play.

    Whether we have just Dragon Tail, just Roar, or both, It will affect Malaconda the same way and how it fulfills its concept the same way. I think its better if the people using malaconda get to decide which phazing move to use and not be limited to just one option. So I believe we should Allow Roar/Whirlwind.

    Wish

    Whats one thing sun doesn't have yet? A vaporeon! Sun never really had a good wish passer like rain's vaporeon, but if we give this thing wish, it can. Even though it doesn't have quite as much HP as Vaporeon, Malaconda still has a massive amount of HP and can provide great support to its teammates by healing the likes of ninetails and heatran. You guys can see how Vaporeon is a great asset to any rain team, right? So why wouldn't malaconda be a great asset to a sun team? I mean it already is a great asset, but what's wrong with providing other ways of fulfilling its concept? I would say a wish passer definitely frees up space in a sun team.

    Sure we could just use a different pokemon for wish passing, but we want to free up space in a sun team. I know its hard to do that with malaconda's 4MSS, but it provides alternative options of space to free. Why focus on a small group of specific team slots when we can allow the users of malaconda to decide what team slots they want to free up from a wide selection? If we allow it, and other moves like aromatherapy and roar, we enlarge the possible team slots to free up. If we have many possible team slots to free up, we have man possible viable sets, and with that being said I believe we'll see more of a variety of members on sun teams, and not just the same few on each team. I think we should Allow Wish.

    And like I mentioned above, aromatherapy for a cleric would be another thing that could help fulfill our concept. Frees a teamslot that might be used for cleric, its very pro concept. So I think we should Allow Aromatherapy/Heal Bell.
  7. Legend13

    Legend13

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    85
    Protect : Protect should be allowed, and for obvious reason; every pokemon with the exception of those four get Protect, Substitute, and Toxic.
    Synthesis : Synthesis is an amazing recovery move that reinforces our ties to sun, and is not overpowered due to all other kinds of weather decreasing its effectiveness. Because of this, Synthesis should be allowed.
    Roar : The only case in which Malaconda would use Roar over Dragon Tail is when substitutes become a problem. Since it doesn't do much for or against our concept, it can be allowed or disallowed.
    Wish : Sun teams lack any dedicated wish passers that abuse sun, and with wish, Malaconda can do just that. Sun teams are constantly on the offensive, and most of the time, don't have the time to heal, especially Sun attackers, meaning Wish is to the benefit of Sun and our concept. Allowing Wish.
    Speed Boosting : One of Malaconda's designed weaknesses is its speed, and even with speed, it doesn't benefit. Disallow all Speed Boosting moves.
    Belly Drum : Because of the way IV's work, Malaconda can actually put itself 1 hp under 50%, which will activate Sitrus, bringing Malaconda up to 75%, along with maxed out attack. Of course, that 25% makes a huge difference, and Malaconda is too slow to sweep. If we want an offensive variant of Malaconda, we should allow Belly Drum.
    Coil : After a single boost, Malaconda can start dealing considerable damage with (a slightly more accurate) Power Whip, and doesn't patch up its mediocre defense. After two boosts however, Malaconda's defense reaches a considerable amount, making it impossible to stop. Disallow Coil and all moves within that vein. In fact, anything that raises Defense should be disallowed.
    Swords Dance : For a more offensive type of Malaconda, Bulky Swords Dance is an option. A +2 STAB hurts no matter what, and Malaconda can use Sitrus or LumRest to keep itself alive. Thankfully, Malaconda is on the slow side, so any serious physical attacker or one of our counters can stop Malaconda before things get too out of hand.
    Sleep Moves : There is no reason why Malaconda would need Sleep inducing moves for its concept, as there is no niche type that resists Sleep.
    Will-O-Wisp : Malaconda has a Designed weakness to physical attacks, and Will-O-Wisp undermines that design. Disallowing Will-O-Wisp.
    Aromatherapy : Aromatherapy allows Malaconda to cure itself of Toxic (if it's a Sitrus variant), and its teammates of Scald Burns and Hypnosis Sleep. Since Sun lacks a dedicated Cleric, Malaconda should get Aromatherapy.
    Glare : With Glare, Malaconda can cripple Sweepers on the switch, or take it as an option aside from pursuit when a scarf or specs Politoed tries to flee, crippling one of its teammates, yet being no more overpowered than Thunder Wave. Allowing Glare.
  8. Thunderbolta

    Thunderbolta

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    45
    Detect/Protect: Allow
    Moreso Protect than Detect, since Detect is just inferior Protect. Almost every single pokemon gets Protect, and it hasn't yet shown itself to ever be broken. Perhaps Sub/Protect Gliscor is about as bad as Protect ever gets. With that in mind, I don't think Malaconda will be too powerful with Protect.

    Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis: Allow
    Malaconda will already have access to LumRest, which will heal far more effectively.

    Rest: Allow
    Vaporeon is the current example of HydraRest (which doesn't require a held item), and that has better offense, double STAB and comparable bulk, as well as an (arguably) better defensive typing. Because of that, I can't see how it would be any more broken on Malaconda than Vaporeon, who ISN'T top-tier OU.

    Roar/Whirlwind: Allow
    Dragon Tail is allowed. No real reason to allow that but ban these.

    Agility / Autotomize / Flame Charge / Rock Polish: Allow
    Giving Malaconda speed boosts is rarely going to come into play, to be honest. Malaconda's attack is not that great, and it already has a severe case of move slot syndrome. Giving it speed boosts on defensive sets wont be viable, and there wont be room on offensive sets, so I allow it on the basis that it will not be broken, but may find a niche role on a set.

    Belly Drum: Disallow
    Belly Drum would amplify Malaconda's attack to frightening levels. Add to that the reliable recovery and you have nigh-unstoppable set up sweeper.

    Bulk Up / Coil / Curse: Disallow
    By patching Malaconda's weaker defense stat, and boosting its already respectable attack stat, these moves would have their uses, however, for a defensive pivot they could quickly become broken as should Malaconda get set up, the only thing that will kill it is a crit on the physical side... and a bug move.

    Clear Smog / Haze: Allow
    We have phazing, why not hazing?

    Cosmic Power / Defend Order / Stockpile:Disallow
    These moves aren't the most competitively viable except in the case of unique cases like Sigilyph. As far as I'm aware, Malaconda is not getting Stored Power, which makes that less of a problem, however, I could still see the defense boosts stacking up way too much (particularly at patching its physical bulk).

    Dragon Dance: Allow
    Dragon Dancing Malaconda would be dealt with easily enough, as at +1 it's still going to be outsped by quite a few things ('Nape, Terrak, Keldeo), particularly if not running Jolly...

    Shift Gear: Disallow
    ...whereas Shift Gear would just boost its speed too high whilst raising its offenses. It would be too hard to counter.

    Growth: Allow
    Comboes with Sun, would not boost its defenses. Could turn it into a powerful bulky sweeper, but would be outclassed in that both inside and outside of sun... besides, Chlorophyll sweepers are the name of the game with sun. I can't see it getting much use, but I see no reason not to include it.

    Swords Dance: Allow
    Swords Dance would be no more broken than Growth, even if it would promote use outside of sun, I don't see that as being a very good reason to disallow it.

    Quiver Dance: Disallow
    I could only see use on this along with Baton Pass. It would boost the SpD to ridiculous levels, stopping Heatran from countering it completely. Heatran could easily become a shaky check, as it's a special attacker and this is a special wall we're building.

    Shell Smash:Disallow
    This would essentially turn Malaconda into a grass-type Cloyster. Rapid Spin, Shell Smash, frail on one side, bulky on the other. Seriously. I think that Shell Smash would turn it into an offense 'mon.

    Aromatherapy / Heal Bell / Refresh: Allow
    The aim is to support sun, and what better to save it team slots than allowing it to double as a cleric?

    Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance: Disallow
    I fear that this could turn it way too much into a Parafusion, Resting broken CAP falling into the same category as Jirachi almost. It's completely hax-based, which is non-competitive and is rarely viable.

    Glare / Stun Spore / Thunder Wave: Allow
    Paralysis on its own is deal-with-able, has effects outside of the hax-based-immobilization and would be useful for sun teams to have. Paired with Chandelure, which has near-perfect defensive synergy with Malaconda and appreciates the speed drop of its foes.

    Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder / Spore: Disallow
    Would cause Malaconda to beat its counters.

    Will-o-Wisp: Allow
    As a pokemon, Malaconda is quite similar to Jellicent. Both special walls. Jellicent has Will-o-Wisp, and it certainly isn't broken there. I see no reason why this would be much different.

    Yawn: Allow
    Yawn is pretty much just a phazing move. Allowed for same reasoning as Whirlwind.
  9. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,616
    Thats true, but CAP 5 loses to those pokemon regardless so I don't see the issue. Worth noting that Dugtrio can go for a trap / kill on the first 3 pokemon you mentioned as well.

    Also Salamence (and Dragonite) cannot boost alongside CAP 5. Their attacks are stuck doing the same amount of damage, while CAP 5 can and will OHKO with Crunch after enough boosts. At +1, CAP 5 will 2KO without breaking a sweat. You also underrate just how easy it is to beat CAP 5, for example, at +2, Choice Specs Keldeo cannot OHKO with SS, with the right EV spread, CB Terrakion only has a 25% chance to OHKO and so on. Sure, its at the moment, CAP 5 doesn't have the widest coverage available, but Grass / Dark hits pretty much every non steel (aside from Hydreigon, Loom and a few other mons im forgetting) for pretty good damage as it is, BU just makes it hit even harder.

    Now clearly, much of this depends on the EV spread, the difficulty is, you don't know what its running in an actual battle, for instance, Terrakion can win sometimes against the right EV spread, but sometimes it loses. The hard part is thinking: Dam can my Latios or my Scarf Terrakion win here, and what do I pick. Guess wrongly, and you lose, guess correctly, and CAP 5 just switchs out to a CC resist, ready to start the process all over again.

    Couple of problems with this part of your post. Firstly, U-Turn WAS picked in our movepool discussion, not to mention that Dugtrio will continue to trap Heatran which does make it difficult. Remember, if Balloon Heatran switchs into a Crunch or Power Whip from CAP 5, its done, Balloon breaks and Dugtrio is free to trap. Secondly:
    I don't know about you, but I am NOT switching my Scizor into that.

    I don't even really know how you consider Scizor a counter, when a coutner can switch in, tank and attack or w/e, and proceed to beat said pokemon. Even if sunlight isn't up, Flame Charge 2KOs so you cannot switch in. Ergo, you do not, by any stretch of the imagination, counter CAP 5 if it packs Flame Charge. Also no, even with Bullet Punch Scizor does not counter CAP 5, for instance:

    Thats just pathetic imo.

    You also ignore how useful Flame Charge is, with it, for instance, you get coverage on Lucario and Breloom (ie 2 pokemon we actually wanted to counter this thing), and have the advantage of being able to heal before your opponent attacks. For instance, I can Flame Charge a switch, tank a DM, Flame Charge again, outspeed and heal etc etc. Sure, this would depend heavily on your EV spread, but its part of the reason why we didn't want a speedy bulky CAP, and Flame Charge gives us that CAP.

    Lastly, I want to highlight this

    So here, you fully admit that Flame Charge makes sun teams OP and you still want to support it being on a movepool. Like "wut".
    This CAP, just like others before it, are made FOR the OU metagame, this means they are not designed for the UBER metagame. Ergo, if we break this CAP, then technically, we didn't fully achieve the base concept of CAP in attempting to influence the OU metagame. Its true we are not really attempting to balance the metagame, but we sure as hell are not trying to break it either, just look at the community reaction to Aurumoth (which would have been deemed uber in an actual OU suspect test) for an example as to why trying to make OP things is frowned upon.
  10. Basileus

    Basileus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    279
    This is really upsetting me, CAP5's purpouse is NOT TO suppourt sun In fact it is the exact oppisite. His purpouse is to lower the use of common types such as steel, fighting, and dragon. Making him viable in sun doesn't really solve the problem and just makes a whole new problem for OU, making sun broken beyond repair. We don't want this!

    Overall I agree strongly with thunderbolta but I disagree with his justifications on why. I also think that it is wierd that yawn is allowed while all othe sleep moves are disallowed. I would think that disallowing all status moves except toxic/thunder wave/glare and possibly will-o-wisp would benifit malaconda the most without breaking him in the sun. He needs the ability to cripple opponents switching in so it can act as a lure for it's several counters. The speed drop would help mala onda U-turn to something else, and will-o-wisp helps with its poor defensive stat.

    double-Edit: Ok, re-write, I get what is confusing ginja after a more through examination of her comment. I was trying to say that flame wheel may cause it to be OP on sun teams, but it also gives it coverage and speed boost which it desperately needs to counter common types such as steel and have enough speed to actually use some of its coverage moves like ice fang to it'd advantage. If you don't approve because it is too OP than paralysis would be a nice alternative to this problem while keeping some major counters, but flame charge isn't much worse than any other speed boosting move because a bullet punch from scizor is an OHKO (I think) and U-turn as well will rip apart malaconda because it is incapable of OHKOing with flame charge. Speed boosting with a fire move allows for mal to counter common types which is what we wanted all along. I understand the concern of sun, but the legitimate answer to the entire questions of CAP5 might actually be that it is impossible to lessen the use of common types without increasing the use of other types to a point where they become the common types! I think that would be a an interesting development which is why I am sorta ok with breaking sun a little bit to test out my theories. And please don't tell me that "sun is broken already" because I ensure you that for every complaint about sun there is at least ten about rain and 3 about sand storm. I hope this helps you understand what I am getting at, ginja :)

    super edit(lol): Welp, it looks like peoples constant crying about how a six-weakness Pokemon with 60 defense and 55 speed being too OP in OU have finally banned malaconda from being anything offensively. Forcing it to be almost nothing but a special defensive wall with SIX weaknesses. Essentially now it is a combination of chansey and cacturne, an it appears that will not equalize types in OU under any circumstances. So I guess I am basically done with CAP5 now, there is no point in advancing any of my ideas any further now that they have been completely shot down. I hope that I am wrong and something will be able to save this snake-mon but a bad feeling tells me I am right :(
  11. ChaosAkita

    ChaosAkita

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    190
    Glare: Allow. Mostly the same as Thunder Wave, but also hits Garchomp.

    Whirlwind / Roar: Allow. If Dragon Tail is allowed, these should be allowed as well as they mostly serve the same purpose.

    Detect / Protect: Allow. Is there a reason to disallow this on any Pokemon?

    But I agree with Basileus, this Pokemon is NOT to be on Sun Teams, it's to counter common types.
  12. capefeather

    capefeather Yessie!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,772
    There has been less discussion on some of these than I expected. This is the main reason I'm going to leave the sleep moves out there for a while. While Aromatherapy and friends didn't get much discussion, either, they got some strong arguments for being pro-concept. Same goes for the (p)hazing moves. It seems like the sun recovery disagreement has been put to bed as well. Will-O-Wisp seems to have gotten more talk when it wasn't in ND, but whatever, nobody likes burns, since it would screw over a lot of physical attackers that (should) threaten Malaconda.

    There's been a lot of talk about Baton Pass, but I worry that a lot of it has been mixed up with the boosting moves, while we're going on about disallowing them. Still, Deck Knight's post on pinch berries provides an argument independently of these, and if anyone supports Baton Pass, that's the argument you should probably be countering. Ingrain is dependent on Baton Pass, so I guess if Baton Pass is disallowed, then it doesn't really matter. I have thrown the rest of the categories into ND, but the big money IMO is on the hazard-based moves. Originally, I believed that Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes were okay but Spikes was not, but some earlier arguments are swaying me away from those positions.

    I have also left the speed boosters (except Flame Charge) out there because mainly because of Detroitlolcat making an argument dissecting each boosting move independently, and I guess the same questions apply. I'm just not sure that they would automatically pull Malaconda toward a sweeper role, an argument I find kind of vague. They seem more like novelty to me, other than maybe Dragon Dance. I knew from the beginning that people wouldn't really like boosting moves in general, so I thought to be provocative about it to see what happens.
  13. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,393
    Detect/Protect: Allow

    There is absolutely no reason to ban either move. Having both would be kinda strictly flavor, but other than that, they are very important moves on a couple of Malaconda's movesets, namely the potential stalling ones, which would include a Sitrus Berry or RestoChesto set. Protect would be used not only to garner extra moves in order to help rack up Toxic damage, but also allows Malaconda to be able to scout for moves or potential movesets and switch out of these Pokémon accordingly.

    Sleeping Moves: Allow Sleep Powder/Hypnosis, Disallow Spore

    Sleep Powder/Hypnosis has shaky accuracy, enough that most Pokémon that have it don't carry it on their movesets (save for a few exceptions i.e. Jumpluff). In fact, Sleep Powder/Hypnosis has shaky enough accuracy that if those using Malaconda found an efficient way to use it, it would actually be fairly good data for us to study and work off of for future projects. So, allow Sleep Powder/Hypnosis.

    Spore is broken. Just flat out broken. There's a reason that Breloom functions so efficiently, and why Parasect can actually be used sometimes (and Amoongus). In fact, some of Malaconda's sets could quickly become broken with Spore - get down to low enough HP, time a Spore right, and suddenly you can begin having substantial boosts from pinch berries. They'll have so switch, and maybe Malaconda will suddenly be at +2 Speed. Or something like that, I dunno. Anyway, disallow Spore.
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Goodbye
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,616
    Scizor cannot switch into a Flame Charge since it has a high chance to OHKO with SR, and regardless, its a 2KO, with CAP 5 outspeeding due to the speed boost. Technically, Scizor is a "CHECK" since it can switch into Crunch / PW and U-Turn. Bullet Punch doesn't do anything close to a OHKO to CAP 5, calc is below

    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Malaconda: 160-189 (36.86 - 43.54%). Thats a 3KO against the physically defensive EV spread, while the specially defensive one is very likely 2KOed, (Sitrus turns this into a 3KO tho iirc) so Bullet Punch doesn't quite OHKO CAP 5 :(
  15. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2010
    Messages:
    322
    Damn its been a while

    Allow Baton Pass

    I want Baton Pass on mal because I want to be able to use a switching move without breaking Heatran's baloon. Heatran is one of the safest ways to handle malaconda and I would rather keep it that way for balance's sake. I, like many others, do not like the idea of being pure setup fodder, and i do feel a switching move would be a boon when dealing with Dragonite, Volc, but i think uturn is a bit too powerful for this CAP.

    Deck Knight has raised some concerns in regards to boost passing with Malaconda and boosting berries, but i think these concerns are somewhat blown out of proportion. Assuming we do not give Malaconda any boosting moves, the only way Malaconda can boost will be through pinch berries, and the only"reliable" way to get yourself down to 25% health is by using substitute. Since we have reached a consensus on not allowing leech seed and since it seems unlikely that we will be attempting a sweep, the only reason to use substitute on malaconda would be if it was a baton pass/pinch berry variant. At that point you do not have to play into your opponents hand by breaking the substitute. You can switch around, start boosting with one of your sweepers, use a multihit move, taunt, whatever. Malaconda can not take advantage of free turns the way Terakion or Dragonite can. The Baton Pass set will probably look something like substitute/baton pass/moonlight or taunt/attacking move. malaconda is a sitting duck until it gets below 25%, and in the meantime you can set up whatever strategy you want. The fear over baton pass and boosting berries is overblown. Baton Pass should be allowed.

    Spikes should be allowed

    Hazard stacking is not a strategy common on sun teams because of teamslot issues, but it is undoubtedly one that sun teams would appreciate greatly. Volcarona and Venasaur will both love the additionalOHKO's the extra layers of hazards guarantee, and spikes also work to indirectly helps malaconda handle Scizor by limiting its switch in which will ensure mal's viability without breaking the CAP. Spikes will not decouple CAP from sun because in other weathers, Ferrothorn/Skarmory/Forretress will generally be superior options for spikes stacking. Basically, spikes provides sun with an option available to every other weather and allows Malaconda a way to weaken its counters without outright beating them. Allow spikes.
  16. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    111
    Getting back to what's currently up for discussion, the speed boosting moves. While these certainly wouldn't break Malaconda, they certainly don't benefit its role as a defensive pivot in any way. So let's talk about what it gains from a speed boosting moves. And disregard Baton Pass for a second.

    With max evs in speed, after an Agility boost, Malaconda would be just a tiny bit slower than max speed Starmie, fast enough to out speed and kill a couple of would-be threats including the nonscarf grass weak fighting types Terrakoin and Keldeo, physical attacking ice types like Mamoswine and unboosted Cloyster, dark weak fire types like non scarfed Chandelure and Victini, and non Mach Punch Breloom with Ice Fang.

    Now no one in their right mind would run speed EVs on Malaconda and these speed moves simply for these guys. Glare would be infinitely superior to speed boosting moves, in that is completely more coherent to its playstyle and permenantly cripples a scarf user, which Agility Malaconda still couldn't beat.

    If you want another option that would allow Malaconda to play late game clean up would be the use of the Custap Berry, giving all its moves increased priority if its health was below 25%. With that variant, you could have bulk AND speed. No speed EVs required. Yet another variant of a late game cleaner could be Liechi Berry Malaconda passively boosting its attack each turn, in tandem with Sucker Punch and/or Extremespeed.

    Now all of that considered, Malaconda shouldn't be attacking anyway, but speed boosting moves distract from its role as a defensive pivot, and don't allow it do anything it can't already do.

    Except when you factor in Baton Pass.

    With Baton Pass, Malaconda would become a fearsome boost passer, maybe even better than Gorebyss. The potential of passing boosts acquired with just pinch berries seems broken enough. When you add pinch berries in with Agility, it might as well be passing Shell Smashes without the defense drops. And we just disallowed Shell Smash, didn't we?

    So since the cons outweigh the pros, we have our pivot move in the form of U-Turn, a Balloontran switch in to Malaconda is likely to have its balloon broken with or without U-Turn, AND seeing as how Malaconda has no business boosting itself or others...

    Disallow speed boosting moves.
    Disallow Baton Pass.

    I feel apprehensive about Ingrain without Baton Pass. A niche Ingrain passing role was kinda why I wanted Ingrain in the first place. I'm also concerned that similar to Leech Seed, Ingrain might make Lum+Rest Malaconda an unbreakable wall. I'm still unsure, but I'm leaning towards Disallow Ingrain.

    Hazards:

    Not sure what to think about Rapid Spin yet. A dark type spinner really will throw the whole spinblocking role of ghosts into upheaval. That would have huge implications for the metagame.


    If Malaconda's goal is to be a type equalizer, I don't think it should get Stealth Rock. Fire, Flying, Bug, and Ice types are underused simply because SR exists. Besides, Malaconda is weak to all those types. and we are trying to encourage their use That's why we didn't give it rock coverage. Disallow Stealth Rock.

    Spikes works well with Malaconda. It will be steel bait (an overused type we are trying to even out) which spikes will soften up nicely. Malaconda will find plenty of set up opportunities switching into special attackers too. Allow Spikes.

    Toxic Spikes I have never really cared for much because so many people carry poison types. Toxic stalling isn't going to work well on Malaconda as it attracts so many steel switch ins. Since it won't help Malaconda in that regard, Disallow Toxic Spikes.

    Status moves:
    Yay we got rid of Will o Wisp! Moving on...

    Disallow sleep moves. Sleeping its counters on the switch makes them non-counters. Inaccurate ones like Hypnosis might be okay, as using them is a big gamble.

    Yawn is inferior to Roar and Whirlwind as a phazing move, and I still don't like that it could be used as a sleeper move. Disallow Yawn.

    Glare deters set up and doesn't neutralize its counters like sleep and burn would. Countered easily by Taunt or faster substitutes. Parashuffle sets on Malaconda would be fun. Allow Glare.

    Field effects:
    Obviously Sunny Day is a giver and Rain Dance is a big no-no since we are trying to keep Malaconda tied to sun and far away from rain teams. Sun Trick Room could be a thing, but Xatu would set it up better for sun teams than Malaconda ever could. I was considering Gravity, but many people are worried about Air Balloontran being trapped by Dugtrio as it is, so Gravity detracts from Heatran's ability to counter Malaconda. Allow Sunny Day. Disallow the rest.

    Move limiters I think should be disallowed on the grounds that Malaconda already has so many support options. Taunt and Encore should definitely be disallowed, as these moves would make Glare+Sitrus+Substitute Malaconda unphazable by Roar/Whirlwind and broken. Disable and Torment should be disallowed, becausethey potentially can force out Malaconda's counters. Malaconda won't be able to use Mean Look well, as it is too slow, and will always draw in users of U-Turn. Dugtrio is already sun's go to trapper anyway. Disallow Mean Look.
  17. RivRivRiv

    RivRivRiv

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    43
    Lets talk about hazards.

    If you look at the list of OU Pokemon who learn Spikes (Cloyster, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory) you'll notice all of them except Cloyster have a Fire weakness, making them less than ideal in Sun. Okay, Malaconda is weak to Fire as well, but Harvest more than makes up for that. Introducing a viable Sun-Spiker would be very beneficial to Sun and +2 Special Venusaur becomes that bit more threatening with a few layers of Spikes down. So I think we should allow Spikes.

    On the other hand there are plenty of other Pokemon capable of setting up Stealth Rock so I see no need for it here.

    Sun doesn't have time for Toxic Spikes so I can't see it getting much use. That said I don't have a specific reason to disallow it either.

    Now for the elephant in the room. There isn't a single Rapid Spin user with a type advantage over Ghosts. Give Malaconda Rapid Spin and it automatically becomes the number one spinner in the game and will see use on all teams. Malaconda comfortably beats Gengar and Jellicent in any weather, making spin blocking a thing of the past. I guess you could argue Pokemon like Scizor become the new "spin blockers" but I don't think a very good way of fulfilling the concept is ensure Scizor gets used on every freakin' team. Disallow Rapid Spin.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,995
    I already answered to Deck Knight's post and explained why SubPass sets won't see any use on sun teams: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4650789&postcount=55

    I also explained why speed boosting stat-up moves won't be a good idea in the same post.

    To the people that say that Wish is not reliable and thus is acceptable on the CAP, don't forget Sitrus Berry. Sitrus Berry can keep the CAP healthy enough to receive the Wish even if it doesn't use Protect, making it more reliable than it would normally be, and so making the CAP perfectly viable outside of sun teams. Disallow Wish.

    As for all other stat-up moves, i think we should disallow all stat-up moves. They don't really help the CAP do anything against the Pokemon that it is supposed to handle that it can't already do, and only serve as possible gateways to offensive sets.

    Allow Aromatherapy / Heal Bell. Good support moves that will help Malaconda on its defensive role, and will make Sitrus Berry sets a bit more viable, because as of now they seem a bit inferior to LumRest ones.

    Allow Rapid Spin. If the CAP doesn't have Rapid Spin, then why the hell will sun teams use it? They already have Pokemon that can deal with Lati@s and Water-types simultaneously, such as P-Song Celebi, the blobs, and hell even Slowking. Yeah i know that the CAP will have LumRest, but this alone is not a reason to for sun teams to use Malaconda, at least not in a regural base. Rapid Spin will be the most important tie of the CAP to sun, combined with Harvest of 'course.

    Disallow all entry hazards. The CAP already has a lot of utility, and giving it more just for the sake of it doesn't sit well to me. All the other utility and team helping moves that the CAP got had some reasoning behind them. Rapid Spin was picked so that sun teams can have more teamslots to cover more threats, as Rapid Spin users are very rare to find, unlike SR/Spikes/T-Spikes users. Heal Bell and Aromatherap[y directly help the CAP do what it is supposed to, deal with Water-types, by healing the status inflicted by them. All of the support moves that greatly benefit the whole sun team have a serious reasoning behind them. Unless i see someone give a very good reason as to why we should use those moves, i don't want them on Malaconda's moveset. And even if a good reasoning is given, i feel like with entry hazards, Malaconda will become a too good supporter for sun teams. Don't forget guys, we don't want to give to Malaconda everything it wants in order to support sun teams, we want it to give the necessary things, and some additional ones to make it a bit more versatile. There is no reason to give to Malaconda a ton of useful support options, unless your goal is to break sun teams.
  19. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    667
    I'm going to start by just quoting this from my last post regarding Rapid Spin.

    While a spinning Malaconda would be great for Sun teams, it would also be great for literally any team wanting a near-perfect Rapid Spinner. The more utility you give Malaconda for non-Sun teams to take advantage of, the more you cut its ties to Sun. Disallow Rapid Spin

    Now for the other hazard moves. Toxic Spikes is one move that I really don't see as all that helpful to Sun. The majority of Sun teams tend to be offensive, and so they'd most likely appreciate the other two types of hazards more than Toxic Spikes. It doesn't necessarily help beat opposing team archetypes either. Rain teams also often have Tentacruel and/or Toxicroak to absorb the Toxic Spikes, and opposing Sun teams have Venusaur (not to mention the occasional Amoonguss on Sand teams). The best OU Rapid Spinners can also spin away Toxic Spikes with few problems (Forretress is immune, Starmie has Natural Cure, and Tentacruel flat-out absorbs them). Toxic Spikes also don't help much with some of the main Pokemon that Sun teams tend to have trouble with, namely Heatran and the majority of Dragons. Disallow Toxic Spikes.

    Stealth Rock is another one that I see little use for. It's not so much that it would hurt the concept, it's just that there are plenty of good users of Stealth Rock, and I see little reason why we should give it to Malaconda. Disallow Stealth Rock.

    Spikes is one I'm more friendly towards. As has been mentioned before, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory are probably going to be more attractive to non-Sun teams as Spikers, and currently there are no Spikes users that don't suffer at least somewhat in Sun due to the added Fire weakness (which Malaconda also has, but it abuses Sun as well). I don't see how this would hurt the concept, so allow Spikes.

    I think the only field effect that the concept of Malaconda can truly benefit from is Sunny Day. In an effort to keep Malaconda focused on Sun, I say we drop Rain Dance completely. There have been some concerns about Dugtrio trapping Heatran, a designated counter to Malaconda, and Gravity would only further hurt that by crippling BalloonTran and making him more trappable. Trick Room just seems counter-intuitive to the way most Sun teams play, especially considering Venusaur is so prominent a threat on this team archetype. Disallow all field moves except Sunny Day.

    I really don't like the idea of having any boosting moves on Malaconda. Malaconda is designed to be a support for Sun teams, not a sweeper. Disallow boosting moves.

    I prefer Baton Pass as an option, but before I get to that, I'd like to address Ingrain. I believe that with Baton Pass, Ingrain can be used to develop a new niche that could distract from Malaconda's purpose. Disallow Ingrain.

    As for Baton Pass, I think this would be a good option. Ordinarily, it would be just an inferior U-turn. However, there is a connection to our counters list in that this would give Malaconda a viable way of escaping Heatran without breaking its Balloon. This would be good for Malaconda, while also preventing opposing Heatran from being Dugtrio bait, therefore maintaining its status as a solid counter. Some movepool designers might prefer including Baton Pass and omitting U-turn entirely for this reason, so I think we should leave that option open. Allow Baton Pass.

    Wish on a Pokemon with a base 115 HP stat is really good, and so I think it could just be a bit distracting. Personally, I would like all of Malaconda's healing options to be Sun-related, so disallow Wish.

    The four move limiters are tricky. I think Taunt would be just fine. Malaconda is slow, and so it's not super likely that it will be able to stop a dangerous non-attacking move before the opponent gets a chance to use it. I don't see how it could really harm Malaconda's purpose either. I'm not so sure about Encore, to be honest. Torment and Disable could help Malaconda to stop dangerous attacks from its normal counters and possibly beat them, so I think we should avoid it. Allow Taunt, but disallow Torment and Disable. I don't care about Encore either way.

    I think paralysis moves could be very useful in letting Malaconda support its team by crippling dangerous opposing Pokemon. Paralysis also isn't a very rare status, and so I don't think it would be especially attractive to other teams (especially when Pokemon like Jirachi and Ferrothorn are available). I guess Thunder Wave and Stun Spore are okay, but I especially want to allow Glare.

    Sleep moves are very powerful in 5th Gen, and good OU sleep users are somewhat rare. A Pokemon like Malaconda with a decent sleep move would be a great addition to teams of all sorts of archetypes, not just Sun. After all, your main OU sleep users right now are the frail Breloom and the Sun-dependent Venusaur, so the bulky Malaconda would be a great sleep for more defensive Sand and Rain teams. That said, Malaconda would also receive competition from Venusaur as a Sun sleeper. I think a very unreliable sleep move like Grasswhistle or Hypnosis would be okay, but since those aren't options, disallow all sleep moves, including Yawn.

    EDIT @ capefeather: Ah, good point. I forgot about that for a second. In that case I don't really have a preference on trapping moves, but I haven't changed my opinion on Ingrain.
  20. capefeather

    capefeather Yessie!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Messages:
    2,772
    Keep in mind that Baton Pass does NOT transfer Block / Mean Look / Spider Web in this generation.

    At this point, my main purpose in keeping the Speed boosters up for discussion is to see how much of a connection the arguments for/against them has to the arguments for/against the paralysis moves. It's kind of weird to me that people appear so against Speed boosting moves and so supportive of paralysis moves, seemingly for the same reason (getting the Speed jump on switch-ins). It seems as if this is largely because paralysis moves are "support moves" while Speed boosters are "sweeping moves". Given that some people have argued against the paralysis moves or for the Speed boosting moves by addressing the "Speed jump on switch-ins" argument, I think that the positions on these moves need to be made a bit clearer. I suppose one could also read this as a secret skepticism of paralysis moves.

    The same really goes for the other moves in discussion right now. Some of the arguments against Baton Pass, Ingrain, and some field moves and disabling moves contain a lot of theorymon that I fear is too generalized and not indicative of how they play out in real Pokemon. I'm not sure that some of the field moves are even competitive on Malaconda... Rain Dance is really only in the VGM list because of Prankster Tornadus.
  21. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2012
    Messages:
    139
    So I've finally made my mind up on boosting moves. Deck Knight's post arguing against Baton Pass demonstrated the quite scary boosting potential Malaconda has already using Harvest and stat-boosting berries and inadvertently gave a good argument against boosting moves too. Malaconda is more than capable of boosting its stats already in a way far more concept-specific than boosting moves. Adding boosting moves to the mix could prove to be dangerously over-powered, so I'm now very clear on my stance. I know we've already excluded all boosting moves except those that effect speed, but this argument covers them all and will hopefully move them to the disallowed section with their brethren. Disallow boosting moves.

    So what else would Cape like us to discuss..?

    Sunny Day and Rain Dance should be more than blatant, but I'll give some explanation just in case. Neither are likely to see use but it might be nice for Malaconda to bring sun back up if Ninetales has died. Rain Dance would do the same for rain, but we want less rain and more sun. So, allow Sunny Day and disallow Rain Dance.

    Trick Room isn't a move I'm keen on. Simply, I get the feeling that rather than being used to support teammates, Malaconda will use this in conjunction with its low speed to try sweeping itself. Plus it has nothing really to do with the concept at all - last I checked neither sun teams nor uncommon types were aided by Trick Room any more than other teams and other types (though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there) so let's steer clear of it. At best it neither helps nor hinders the concept, at worst it steers Malaconda off course. Disallow Trick Room.

    I would very much like to allow Rapid Spin. This one is very much suited to the concept, where both sun teams and uncommon types very much benefit from the removal of hazards more than others. Much love has been expressed for Rapid Spin already so I won't say too much for fear of repeating arguments, but it'll very much help free up slots on sun teams and allow for pivoting, so let's get it!

    Now, hazards themselves. I find it strange that Rapid Spin has so much love and hazards so little hate. What we've got to remember is that this is a metagame wide concept rather than one about winning a game. We must look beyond single matches. The concept is aided if we make it easier for your opponent to use sun teams too and damaged if Malaconda makes it harder for them. So why would we want hazards on either side of the field? We've already established they're of particular detriment to sun teams. With that in mind, the least we can do is disallow all hazards on Malaconda.
  22. Trognar

    Trognar

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    10
    Yes, that was the original idea that was mentioned in the concept and typing discussions. However, that ship sailed the moment the majority made it a dark type, nevermind the fact that this thing has access to pursuit. Sun is just going to have to use something else as a spinner because as Riv said, having a Rapid Spinner with STAB Pursuit would make spinblocking completely impossible. I don't have any calcs to support this, but honestly I really shouldn't have to show any; Malaconda has double STAB bonus on one of the most popular spinblockers, Jellicent (who happens to be specially defensive, making it even easier to take him down) and easily deals with Gengar and Golurk. What I'm really trying to say here is under no circumstances can Malaconda be allowed to have Rapid Spin.

    Edit: lolk, it got Rapid Spin. Basileus definitely has the right idea here, I'm out.
  23. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    553
    There are too many moves. GameFreak should remove some so I can make shorter posts in these threads.

    Move Limiters
    Encore is a great move for Malaconda to have. There are a couple of setup sweepers on the list of targets: CM Lati@s and Thundurus-T are the main ones that stick out. Encore lets Malaconda to punish people who decide to try and take advantage of Malaconda's weak(ish) offenses and set up on it. It does have some potential to screw with Pokémon that are meant to threaten Malaconda (Volcarona has to think twice about QDing, for instance), but it doesn't actually allow Malaconda to beat them provided they choose to go for an attacking move. It's not unreasonable to object to the move on those grounds anyway, but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Allow Encore.

    Disable I am a bit more wary of. It probably isn't actually overpowered, but does allow Malaconda to get past several of its counters. Heatran, for instance, can never OHKO max/max+ Malaconda with Fire Blast, and never carries any other moves that do appreciable damage to Malaconda. A similar story applies to essentially all of Malaconda's specially-offensive counters. Admittedly, with Leech Seed disallowed, Malaconda doesn't have a great way to take advantage of these neutered attackers, so it wouldn't be accurate to say that Disable allows it to beat them, but it does allow it to not lose to them, which I would still prefer to avoid. Disallow Disable.

    Taunt is basically a worse Encore here. Malaconda is too fast slow to preempt anything with Taunt, so this is just a way to prevent things from setting up on it. Like Encore, this is incapable of actually preventing any of Malaconda's threats from beating it, and unlike Encore it doesn't even prevent them from winning if they do set up first. Allow Taunt.

    With LumRest, Torment does all the same things Disable does. It's a worse move overall, but the same argument applies. Disallow Torment.

    I haven't yet made my mind up on the switch-blockers. I don't see a real way they're harmful (unless we allow Perish Song I guess) so I suppose I lean toward the "allow" side at the moment.

    Field Effects
    Gravity, Rain Dance, and Trick Room are pretty different moves, but they all have one thing in common: they do nothing for sun teams but are useful on other teams. That's exactly the kind of move we shouldn't be giving to Malaconda, even if none of them are really all that useful. Sunny Day, of course, is the exact opposite, helping sun teams but not any other kind of team, and since it's blatantly not broken, it's a good thing for Malaconda to have for that reason. Allow Sunny Day; disallow Gravity, Rain Dance, and Trick Room.

    Hazards
    Rapid Spin is a big deal. From early on it's been touted as a good move for Malaconda to have, but there have always been some skeptics, and the reason for that is clear: Rapid Spin is a really good move. Now, it's obvious that a good spinner which has real synergy with sun is greatly beneficial to sun teams, which currently don't have many great choices for spinners, as the best spinners in OU are Water-type. Sun teams often run Forretress or Donphan, because with multiple Rock-weak Fire-types (including Ninetales, which needs to be kept alive as long as possible) it is very difficult to go without spin support. (Sun Starmie is also a thing, and I have had some success with it myself), but it's clearly worse in sun than it is elsewhere.) There has been some debate as to how good of a spinner Malaconda will actually turn out to be, but it doesn't have to be Starmie-tier to improve the situation for sun teams. Rapid Spin is an excellent move for Malaconda: we want Malaconda to have support options, and Spin is just about the best one there is on a sun team.

    However, there have also been some people (including in this thread) who worry that Malaconda would actually be too good as a spinner, because its Dark STAB allows it to beat Ghost-types easily. This is a highly flawed argument. It needs to be kept in mind that Rapid Spin, at its very core, does this: trade one of your turns for the removal of entry hazards on your side of the board. This is inherently not a broken move. It's a useful effect, clearly, but it doesn't put you any closer to winning the game (just further from losing). Nothing is ever going to go to ubers because it's too good at using Rapid Spin; at the very worst, teams are forced to become less reliant on entry hazards. While weakening the presence of entry hazards is not the concept we chose, it's not in any way opposed to the concept either. In fact, the complete disappearance of Stealth Rock from OU (setting aside how unimaginably unlikely that is) would do wonders for balancing typings out.

    Even setting all that aside, though, there's also the simple fact that Starmie already beats both OU spinblockers 1v1. Starmie doesn't use Pursuit, true, but Pursuit is a bit of a red herring when we're talking about spin sets. Pursuit is only different from any other Dark move if the splinblocker is switching out, but if it's doing that, it's not blocking your spin! Sucker Punch, too, is rather irrelevant in the comparison since Starmie just naturally outspeeds the spinblockers. This also severely weakens the argument that non-sun teams are going to start using Malaconda as a spinner. Unless you're abusing Harvest or need the ability to beat Lati@s and Politoed, Starmie is just better. (It's also worth noting that non-sun teams using Malaconda is not actually a bad thing: it actually makes sun better, since Malaconda is pretty bad against sun.) Allow Rapid Spin.

    Giving Malaconda hazards of its own is something that I'm pretty unsure about right now. I have to say that I haven't found many of the arguments for or against very convincing. I suppose the argument that Stealth Rock is anti-concept is reasonable, but on the other hand sun could use a better SR setter. Spikes and Toxic Spikes seem to have a good amount of support, but I'm not sure how (or even if) they really help with Malaconda's goals.

    Other stuff
    I've already stated my position on boosting moves in general. Agility and Autotomize are not too bad, but Dragon Dance is an absolutely awful idea. 55 base speed is not much, it's certainly usable at +2, and Malaconda has the bulk to get two dances reasonably often (especially with Sitrus Berry) and the Attack to sweep once it has them. That's not to say that a Dragon Dance sweeper is going to be Malaconda's best set, but it has a chance of being a "real" set, and it's not at all what Malaconda should be doing. It's more likely to be used on non-sun teams, as well, since Chlorophyll sweepers outclass it on sun teams. At best it's an unneeded distraction, and at worst it threatens to derail the concept. Disallow Dragon Dance (and the other speed boosters too, but I don't have any new arguments against those).

    Finally, Ingrain. If Baton Pass ends up allowed, this is an even worse distraction than Dragon Dance, encouraging the use of Malaconda on full BP teams that are almost certainly not sun teams. Without Baton Pass, it probably doesn't deserve to be considered competitive at all. With U-turn, it becomes a bad Aqua Ring, which is hardly the best move in the world anyway. That's probably not a big deal. Disallow Ingrain if Baton Pass is allowed; allow it otherwise (if it's still considered competitive).
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,995
    Best reasoning as to why any kind of entry hazard shouldn't be given to Malaconda. Sun teams prefer to not have entry hazards on their side than to have entry hazards on the opponent's side. If the CAP ends up being succesful and fitting well on sun teams, why would you want to give it a weapon that sun teams themselves struggle against? And as i said before, the CAP already has a ton of team support options (phaze, spinning, cleric, Pursuit trapper, possibly SubPasser, etc) that are actually relevant to the role of the CAP, unlike entry hazards, so isn't this enough?

    About Glare, Thunder Wave, and Stun Spore. I really can't understand how some people can justify allowing paralyzing moves while disallowing Will-o-Wisp. Both kind of moves are similar in that they both screw over with many of the Pokemon that we want to coutner us. Don't you want Lucario, Jirachi, Cobalion, Infernape, Volcarona, and Breloom to easily switch into the CAP, or at least without risk of becoming useless for the rest of the game? On top of this, i have seen zero good reasoning as to why the CAP would even need paralyzing moves to begin with, and why do so many people assume that Malaconda should get Glare? Is it because it is a snake? If yes, then i want to remind you that flavor reasoning has no place at this stage. So to the people supporting Glare and Stun Spore, why do you want those moves and how can you support those moves even though they screw up so many of the Pokemon that should switch into Malaconda relatively easy. Disallow Glare, Thunder Wave, and Stun Spore.

    To everyone saying that giving to a Dark-type Rapid Spin would lead to an overpowered spinner that can get past every Ghost-type (which btw is not true as Sableye exists), i want to remind that OU has already one superb offensive (Starmie) and one superb defensive (Tentacruel) spinner. And both spinners are perfectly fine in OU and not overpowered in the slighest, so i don't see any problem with Malaconda getting Rapid Spin.

    Rain teams already have two perfect spinners, as i already said. Hail teams already have a Grass Pokemon weak to Fighting moves (Abomasnow), along with several other common weaknesses such as Bug, Fire, and Flying, and they just can't afford to stack up on Fighting weaknesses, leaving sand as the only weather that might use Malaconda to a regular basis. However, as long as the CAP is used more on sun teams than it is used on sand teams this won't be a problem, and seeing how many reasons Malaconda has to be used on sun it is perfectly logical to assume that Malaconda will be used more on sun teams. On sand teams not only Malaconda lacks reliable recovery, but it also lacks leftovers making it very vulnerable to passive damage. And as we all know, residual damage are quite a deal for defensive Pokemon, as Chansey has showed us, which even though much bulkier than Blissey is not used at all on sand teams due to her lack of Leftovers.

    About Encore. Prevents dangerous sweepers from setting up on the CAP while still living them healthy to remain long term threats to the sun teams, which is something good as it means that the counters of Malaconda will remain counters to it even with Encore. Allow Encore!

    Disable and Torment. Both moves give to the CAP the possibility to mess with any of its counters that cannot OHKO it, and possibly stall it to death or force it out, which is something that shouldn't happen. Disallow Disable and Torment.

    So, allow Taunt.
  25. adhdtv

    adhdtv

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    28
    I'd like to brin g another element into the fray. Custap berry. This allows for several possibilities. Given +1 priority to any given move, we essentially have pinch prankster on something with better stats than sableye and whimsicott. Does this change any opinions on the pending moves? I wasn't here for the attacking moves discussion so I won't talk about the possibilities for that
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)