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CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Aug 13, 2013.

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  1. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Couple of things.

    Firstly, when looking at what threatens this CAP, we ideally want to make sure its "hard walls' (thanks to the less than stellar offensive typing we picked, you can bet there will be a few) are not common pokemon. This is due for several reasons.

    Currently, when looking at the OU metagame, there are several pokemon that are "common", in that they are seen on many teams. If we made CAP 6 (hypothetically speaking), weak to Scizor, CAP 6 wouldn't be used, simply because Scizor is a good pokemon in of itself, and it would get used both for checking CAP 6, as well as doing everything else it does well. Due to the high risk / high reward playstyle of belly drum, we do not want to make it easy to hard wall this CAP, in order for the belly drum to be rewarding. For instance, Magnezone is by no means a bad pokemon, but it experiences less use than other OU pokemon because it offers less to the team. Jolteon is also in a similar boat. In this manner, I would prefer seeing these sorts of pokemon hard counter CAP 6 (Jolteon is a bad example because it fails at countering the thing), because it requires your opponent so make a conscious effort to use these pokemon, in having to pick a mon that might not be that "amazing" in order to hard wall the Belly Drum Power of CAP 6. This, to some extent, balances out Belly Drum, in that to fully counter it, your opponent has to use a less effective mon to shut you down, rather like how Thundurus-I encouraged people to use the uncommon Quagsire and Gastrodon, to better counter it.

    Despite this, CAP 6 still has to have revenge killers, and we need to nail down similar criteria. There is a large difference to this stage compared with the previous one. Firstly, your standard revenge killer on a standard OU team is a "catch all" for several common metagame threats. Its why Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Keldeo etc are common scarfers because they cover most of the more aggressive set up sweepers in the metagame. CAP 6 needs to be covered by a currently effective revenge killer, because otherwise it opens up paths to players being forced to use a weak scarfer JUST to revenge kill CAP 6, as well as a strong scarfer to revenge kill all the other threats of the meta. On the flipside, your revenge killer has to be uncommon enough, to justify using CAP 6 as a belly drummer in the first place. If everyone is running Scarf Keldeo (and a lot of people are), and CAP 6 (hypothetically) doesn't beat Scarf Keldeo, then why on earth would I bother using CAP 6 to Belly Drum (or at all), in the first place if it loses to the common scarfer(s) out there? This is the exact scenario I was worried about when we picked this concept, because it requires us to make sure CAP 6 is checkable without going to unreasonable lengths, while not making CAP 6's counters so common that it hurts the viability of using Belly Drum in the first place.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
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  2. Bernoid

    Bernoid

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    It may depend on the moveset that CAP 6 will have, but I don't think I should discuss that right now. That aside, I think strong electric types will do a good job in screwing CAP 6 over before it can set up. Pokemon like offensive Jolteon can use high speed and decent special attack, not to mention a STAB and super-effective electric type move to wipe CAP 6 out before it can cause trouble. Despite what others may have said, I don't think STABS matter too much in CAP 6's moveset because after a +6 boost, STABs aren't actually necessary because a +6 boost provides huge damage straight off the bat and obviously outclasses the power a STAB would grant you(maybe someone said this before me, sorry if I'm repeating an idea that has already been put up), so my point is that even if a Pokemon resists steel type moves, flying type moves, or both, it doesn't matter that much unless it's something like Bronzong who still might survive a +6 neutral attack from CAP 6, due to the fact that Bronzong always only has one effective weakness being either fire or ground.
  3. Ignus

    Ignus

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    I'd just like to emphasize something. First of all, CAP takes one turn to set up. 1. Turn. This is an extremely small window for the enemy to react to the situation. The concept of "before boost" threats is close to irrelevant. If CAP6 switches in on one of these threats, we've already lost the battle through stupid play and user error. Allowing CAP to set up is ALWAYS going to be a threat by itself, dangerous to any team without Quagsire (unaware so OP). Speaking of Quagsire, I feel he should be added just for the reason above. While he's not nearly as popular as many threats in OU, he deserves an honorable mention for taking so little damage from such a well boosted pokemon. He doesn't care if we have +6 attack. He will wall us to hell and back and still hurt with Scald. More importantly, he sits on the opposite end of the typing spectrum from pokemon like Jirachi and Heatran. He will always counter us, no matter the stats we choose for our mon. Not only that, but if we give it either of the mentioned coverage (electric/fighting), it won't make a difference.
    To be fair, though, at the cost of a 1 turn setup is the risk of not being able to recover afterwards. Anything that even forces out CAP severely cripples it. It can't boost again without support. We have to be consistent in order to make CAP useful. So we have to, and I mean have to, get something out of our set up. If CAP6 doesn't get a kill out of its boost, we have lost the fight (To clarify, not the battle, just the current situation within the battle.). So, I suggest that scarfers and priority users stay as checks rather than full out counters. This means if they switch in, they will die. However, if they get a chance after something dies, they can take it and finish CAP off. Who do I recommend as checks, rather then the full out mentioned counters talked about earlier? Here's my short-list.

    Conkeldurr
    Jolteon
    Thundurus-T
    Priority users not named Scizor
    Scarfed anything that is squishy enough to die on a switch in

    We have to be careful with this whole situation no matter what. We walk the fine line between overpowered and outclassed. Belly Drum uses health as a resource, and mistiming it's use will almost always prove worthless. However, using it correctly can 7-turn sweep a team. The terrors of CAP decision making.
  4. ginganinja

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    I am seriously disappointed at people who post wanting Jolteon to be a check because it doesn't make much sense.

    Jolteon is very frail, and has bugger all physical bulk. This means that a +6 Bullet Punch happens to deal something like 57-67%, which is one of the weakest STAB moves you can get. Something on the more powerful end of the scale, such as Flight Gem Acrobatics, deals 200%. Iron Head, in the middle of the scale, or Drill Peck (without Flying Gem), max out at 130% damage on Jolteon. All these calculations are done with a +6 Skarmory for simplicitys sake, so Base 80 Atk.

    All this results in a 2 possible routes for us. Our CAP can build speed (in which case Jolteon fails to counter since its fails to outrun and dies horribly, or it can focus on priority, in which case we still have to deal with mons that outspeed this CAP with with a scarf, and without.
    Personally, I would rather we look at if we are going to go speed, or the priority route, so that we can THEN have a firm indication on what should beat our CAP. Figuring this out sooner rather than later IMO is more ideal so we can make more informed choices in ability and stat polls. The idea isn't really to "Poll Jump" just to prevent us from arriving at movepool and then realising that some of the threats we picked this CAp to be checked by, don't actually work, like what happened with Aurumoth.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
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  5. awsmminer3

    awsmminer3

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    I think we have estblished that CAP6 will be destroyed by:
    a)Electric- and Fire-types (Rotom-H stands out for being both)
    b)Pokemon that can prevent it from Drumming
    c)Pokemon that can Encore Belly Drum after you use it, thus killing CAP6 through Belly Drum's self-damage
    d)Pokemon that can make it switch, whether through offensive pressure or phazing
    But hazard-setters like Forretress check it indirectly by increasing the damage it takes on switch-in. I can't see CAP6 wanting to switch in onto an attack anyway, but priority on the Belly Drum turn is much more likely to kill it with hazards factored in.
    EDIT: I just realized that CAP6 is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes (with 2 immunities to the latter) and resistant to Stealth Rock.
  6. Millky95

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    It's neutral to SR actually. So assuming it's up and then drums, CAP6 has lost 62% of it's health really quickly. I think a Pokemon with a resist and Priority should be a solid counter.
  7. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

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    I like the priority route because it let's you cherry pick some counters a bit more easily. i.e. Jolteon is fast and resists our priority attack, so she can safely kill us or force us out (a win) when she comes in. Due to their generally high speeds, this let's us make electric types decent counters. Then, since you know this pokémon CAN'T run a scarf or else he can't belly drum, you can give him some decent coverage moves which are NOT priority, and give him high, but not Jolteon high, speed so he can handle certain revenge killers that we don't want to counter us.

    Not sure how we feel about magnezone, but if you really don't want it to be a counter, just give CAPmon "flame charge" and punish magnezone for even trying to come out on us by giving this CAP more speed and becoming even more dangerous because of that.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    We can have offensive checks even if go the priority or Speed boosting ability route. If we go for one priority move (either Extremspeed or Bullet Punch) then we will have many offensive checks such as Terrakion, Scarf Tyranitar, Gengar, Jirachi, Scizor, Magnezone, and Scarf Heatran in the case of Extremspeed, and a fuckton of more Pokemon for Bullet Punch. If we go the Speed boosting route with no priority and assuming that no Choice Scarf Pokemon will be able to outspeed us after setting up, then you still have offensive Pokemon such as Scizor, Breloom, Heatran, Magnezone, and Jirachi that will be able to take one hit at +6 and OHKO back or just revenge kill with their own priority. So, we can see that both routes leave offensive teams with a healthy number of checks to handle the CAP, provided of 'course the CAP doesn't have the necessary coverage to take down those checks/counters. You also say that beating common scarfers by either boosting Speed or priority is highly unlikely without limiting our coverage ridiculously. I agree, but why is this a problem? At +6, coverage matters mostly against defensive Pokemon and a few select offensive Pokemon, mainly Magnezone. So, if our goal is to make a sweeper that is able to easily sweep offensive teams after setting up and the proper softening up has been made why would we need coverage anyway? Of 'course if you prefer us to build something that destroys defense the concern for coverage is understandable.

    In this paragraph it becomes clear that you prefer us to take a more wallbreaking route because as you explained Belly Drum is more suited to this role. While this logic certainly is partially valid, there are some examples which show that Belly Drum can be equally destructive for offense to face and probably even more. The +6 boost to Attack when combined with good Speed (either via stats or an ability such as Unburden),priority, or both, can make the CAP a nightmare for offensive teams, especially with this sweet typing that resists most priority moves. Furthermore, OU already has plenty of tools to deal with defense to the point that offense is much more viable right now. Add to this that sacrificing 50% of your HP just to KO one of the opposing defensive teams Pokemon and then be revenged kill or forced out by the Choice Scarf user that most defensive teams carry is honestly a waste, especially when considering that Pokemon such as Roost Hydreigon and SpD Kyu-B can kill multiple Pokemon in defensive teams without being useless after or cutting down on their lifespan.

    Small nitpick, but even though the CAP doesn't have a bad offensive typing, it most likely won't have the tools to be very useful before setting up and this can be concluded for two reasons. First, the CAP most likely will have an average Atk stat to balance out the huge Atk boost from Belly Drum. Second, Steel STAB is obviously a bad offensive STAB and while Flying moves get good neutral coverage, the strongest reliable move that the CAP would be able to use is Drill Peck, which has a mediocre 80 BP (Brave Bird is counterproductive with Belly Drum and Acrobatics needs certain items). Combine those two reasons and you will see why it's very unlikely for the CAP to succeed as a choice user or as a LO attacker.

    I think that from my above points one could understand that i am in favor of a CAP that focuses on sweeping offense after setting up while being easier to handle with defensive teams. For this reason, i think it would be ideal for the CAP to beat most or all Choice Scarf users after setting up, as well as some priority users. This way, the remaining priority users and the select few Pokemon that can take a hit from +6 CAP and fit on offensive teams (Jirachi, Magnezone, and maybe Metagross) will be the only answers that offensive teams will have for the CAP after setting up, meaning that they would be really fucked up if the CAP sets up but they would still have a few ways to deal with it (as should happen with any non-broken threat). On the other hand, i don't think that we should give to the CAP the needed coverage to get past the defensive Pokemon that check/counter it, such as Skarmory, Jirachi, and Heatran, in order to make sure that the CAP won't easily break through defensive teams and to counteract the increased setup chances that the CAP will find against such teams. Not to mention that if we assume a mediocre Attack stat, Skarmory's, and +6 Flying Gem Acrobatics, most of the defensive Pokemon that resist the CAP's STABs lose anyway if they switch-in as the CAP uses Belly Drum. Here are the calcs that prove it:
    • +6 252+ Atk Flying Gem Skarmory Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 405-477 (105.19 - 123.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • +6 252+ Atk Flying Gem Skarmory Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 292-344 (96.36 - 113.53%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    • +6 252+ Atk Flying Gem Skarmory Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 224 HP / 32 Def Skarmory: 309-365 (94.49 - 111.62%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
    • +6 252+ Atk Flying Gem Skarmory Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 426-501 (105.44 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    So, it is clear that the CAP doesn't need any coverage to get rid of its defensive checks and if it really wants to maul through defense it will be a able to do it with a single item change (Flying Gem).

    tl;dr

    The CAP should have few offensive checks and a healthy number of defensive checks and counters. Via typing and bulk, the most suited Pokemon to check the CAP offensively are Magnezone, Jirachi, Metagross, and priority users. Likewise, the most suited Pokemon to deal with the CAP defensively are Skarmory, Heatran, Jirachi, physically defensive Rotom-W, and Quagsire. Also, regarding the question that Korski asked about if we want priority or Speed boosting ability, i already said that i prefer to go with Speed boosting ability, but i would prefer us to not exclude all kinds of priority if we go that route. For example, Bullet Punch could be viable and not overpowered on a Speed boosting ability set, to deal with some priority users but not all.

    (Korski edit: I've removed the section proposing a particular ability because it wasn't necessary to arguing the point)
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  9. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    To clarify what I'm talking about, suppose a Heatran just KOed a Pokemon. Should Choice Band Scizor switch into it? Unless it's just to bait the Fire attack and switch out again (which CAP 6 won't likely be doing), Scizor doesn't threaten Heatran in any way. Heatran has an answer to whatever it is Scizor could potentially threaten with, because it's faster and it has STAB Fire. For a less blunt example, consider Choice Specs Keldeo vs Celebi looking to switch in. In this case, Celebi is an answer to Keldeo, but it's not a perfect answer since Keldeo still threatens Hidden Power Bug. We're not asking whether CAP 6 should try to set up on various Pokemon. We're asking whether threats to CAP 6 setting up should exist, and if so, what they should be, and how many.

    It's not necessarily relevant, but it could potentially be very relevant. If we go with the notion that there should be few, if any, answers to CAP 6 after a Belly Drum other than revenge killers exploiting a free switch, then the opponent's responses are largely restricted to using those revenge killers or minimizing CAP 6's setup opportunities.

    Like I said, I'm not against the discussion of the means in itself. The ends we seek are largely dependent on the means, due to the limited number of means that the game mechanics give us. I just disagree that that should be the main focus of the discussion. Some threats can be dealt with through multiple means, so I don't want to pigeonhole the project into one method unnecessarily. However, if we decide on threats and collections of threats that need a specific method to address (or not address), that method would be implied anyway when we go into the later stages. I think that the means should be used to discuss the implications of a particular end, as you did with Jolteon and Korski did with various threats. Ultimately, though, the only thing that really justifies the means is the end.

    The problem with CAP 4 was that there was no strong mandate for any particular check, nor was there much discussion of the implications of stopping potential checks like Genesect and Terrakion.
  10. Ignus

    Ignus

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    You have to understand that my suggestions of frail revenge killers as "checks" are meant to work much in the way Rayquaza interacts with Kabutops in ubers. Kabutops, for those of you who don't know the metagame too well, either 1,2,or 3 hit KOs 90% of the metagame, and with swift swim and a world dominated by Kyogre it pulls this off. Rayquaza is on the list of 1hkos by a good margin. it can't afford to set up on Kabutops or even switch in to a move in fear of stone edge. However, with air lock, it can revenge kill it with relative ease. This is what I define as a "Offensive Check." This isn't a perfect comparison, due to CAP switching out means it looses its boost. It's also a larger loss because revenge killers in OU tend to be more "all encompassing" than Raquaza in ubers. Jolteon, on the other hand, is already faster than what is reasonable for CAP. Loosing to squishy revenge killers with naturally ridiculous speed is going to be an inherent part of this process.

    I'll use the example ginganinja put forward earlier, with 80 base attack. Dealing 57-67% with bullet punch against Jolteon is enough to kill it easily on switch in. However, if Jolteon gets a free switch in after we have killed something, then it will 1hko us. Even with a high end bulk of 100/100/100. Jolteon is the epitome of "squishy revenge killer", and therefore on my list of Checks. Checks, not counters. there's a couple of ways to avoid this, if we REALLY can't handle it being a check.

    The first way would be giving CAP6 a speed greater than 130, either through pure base speed or through some sort of ability like Linoone's Salac Glutonny BellyDrum shenanigans.
    The second would be giving it an unreasonable attack of 176, which is the bottom of where Jolteon will be 1hkoed with bullet punch.
    The third choice would be along the lines of giving it a more appropriate priority move as coverage over bullet punch. Extremespeed would be our best option, due to the fact that any other priority move would require base 120 attack to always 1hko Jolteon.

    So what if we gave it a priority move for coverage? we now have to think about what else will suddenly be irrelevant as a true counter. Heatran, for example, can survive an acrobatics from the above mentioned 80 attack. but only 1. Without extremespeed, Heatran can barely survive a bullet punch afterwards. With stealth rock, it can't. Damn. With extremespeed, Heatran will die, regardless of stealth rock and regardless of set. Well, I guess that's bad. Heatran has been transformed into a check. What about Jirachi? Yikes. Same problem. Can't take a acrobatics followed by an... anything, really. Not so good.

    Do you see why I've been emphasizing Offensive checks that are revenge killers rather than switch ins? Our attack is multiplied to numbers so ridiculously high that it only makes sense to hesitate before giving it strong Priority. Quick revenge killers are the only option. Anything else will take us in directions where CAP6 ends up in the realm of the overpowered or in the realm of the underpowered. We can't expect to have many defensive counters because physical blissey does not exist.

    This brings me to capefeather's point. It's not that I find Pre-Boost counters in general to be irrelevant. My point is that any pre-boost counters Don't have the time to get in if CAP6 gets a free switch. As I said before, counters pre boost are pointless if they can't take CAP post boost, because the only time CAP will be boosting is when it doesn't feel threatened by the situation. These situations will be defined by our later choices, but as of now, we have to assume the way CAP gets off a boost is by not dying from something and then KOing in return. It's not that pre-boost checks won't exist, It's just that they will come up naturally. For example, if Jellicent can deal more than 50% of our health, and we boost, we die. If we 1hko Jellicent after a belly drum, it can't handle us post-boost. This would count as a pre boost check. But, if the user of CAP6 knows Jellicent is a pre boost check, then he won't set up on Jellicent. Pre-boost checks will come up naturally.

    So, while pre-boost checks aren't irrelevant, They fall in the second category of minimizing opportunities to set up. We don't have the turns to prevent CAP6 from setting up. That is why belly drum is scary. It's instant. It happens before you have time to properly react. THAT is why I'm emphasizing revenge killers. I'm doing it because we don't have time for anything else. We shouldn't expect anything to stop it before it sets up, because they won't have time. That is why I suggested my above checks. I hope that this helps clear up my point of view!

    edit: I can't spell
  11. Deck Knight

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    As far as Hard Counters, taking into account so many of them happen to be Steel type, I think we should be able to stop Magnezone from trapping us, and therefore I would like to eliminate Magnezone and Skarmory as checks and keep Heatran as a counter. This has implications for coverage of course, but I think as a general rule Fire-types that have enough bulk to take CAP6's Flying type attacks should be considered counters, while Electric and Steel types should not be counters. Most Electric types will be handled by the fact a faster CAP6 will be able to mow them down with a coverage move since they lack bulk. The only exception to this might be something like Luxray because it has Intimidate, and we don't want something nearly as bulky as Skarmory. Jolteon would also be a candidate because it is very likely to outspeed CAP6, and I just don't think we can justify breaking the Speed barrier to make this work. It should outspeed a few key threats (like musketeers) and go from there.

    That said, I would like CAP6 to have some physical bulk so that it is not aced by priority attacks.

    If I had to make a list, I'd say CAP6 should be reliably Countered by:
    Jolteon (Faster)
    Starmie (Faster, Thunderbolt versions)
    Heatran (Slower, but can only be overcome through something like Flying Gem Acrobatics)
    Quasire (Slower, but Unaware + Recover basically nulls out its advantages.)

    Checks:

    CB/Guts/LO Conkeldurr (powerful neutral priority)
    Scarf Infernape
    Scarf Volcarona
    Scarf Thundurus-T
    Scarf Rotom-W
    Scarf Politoed
  12. Nyktos

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    I don't feel like making a long post right now, but I think this is important: it is completely insane to say that something like Jolteon or Starmie should be a check purely due to being fast. Yes, these Pokémon have high base Speed stats, but neither one commonly carries a Choice Scarf and so any speed-boosting ability will assuredly put us faster than them. While they do admittedly both resist Bullet Punch which might potentially make them checks if we go the priority route, they are torn apart by ExtremeSpeed or Sucker Punch (or Shadow Sneak in Starmie's case) which means that if we do go that route we are limited in what priority moves we can give to the CAP.

    Fuzznip suggested that Jolteon and Scarmie with Choice Scarf should be able to revenge kill CAP 6, and that's fine. But losing to unboosted Jolteon means losing to every Scarfer in the tier, which means being a terrible Pokémon, period.
  13. Vividsketch

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    In terms of the 'Speed Boosting' vs 'Priority' debate, I actually don't see why we can't plan to run both.

    I mean in terms of move pool, within parameters, we can include what ever we'd like. We still have up to 3 'Abilities' to divvy out. And the CAP veterans here are absolutely pro at putting together flexible yet balanced stat spreads.

    It should be noted that it is not possible to run both sets at once, and players would have to choose one strat over the other (or 3rd option if they see fit).


    All that aside, here is a 'threat list' for either possible route we might choose (if not both):

    'Priority' Checks:

    Cloyster
    Ferrothorn
    Forrestress
    Heatran*
    Jirachi
    Jellicent
    Lucario*
    Metagross
    Vaporeon (bulky)

    These are assuming access to both BULLET PUNCH and EXTREMESPEED.
    *Heatran and Lucario fall off this list if MACH PUNCH as well.

    Assuming the likely middling Attack Stat of Movemon, they can all take the Priority +6 hit and dish it back in one form or another

    'Speed Boosting' Checks:

    Alakazam (Choice Scarf)
    Gengar (Choice Scarf)
    Jolteon (Choice Scarf)
    Lati@s (Choice Scarf)
    Starmie (Choice Scarf)
    Breloom (Priority)
    Conkeldurr (Priority)
    Infernape (Priority)
    Lucario (Priority)
    Mamoswine (Priority)

    The 'Choice Scarfers' in particular depend on the given Base Speed of Movemon.
    Obviously the higher it is, the more of them fall off this list. This is just what I think would be ideal.

    Checks Both:

    Scizor
    Quasire (Unaware)

    Scizor is one of the few who should be able to check either set.
    Given that he can take priority hits at +6 Atk as well as dish it back with his own BULLET PUNCH.

    Quagsire is self explanatory.

    Wild:

    Magnezone
    Skarmory

    The ability of these two to check highly depends on the given coverage moves allowed and run.
    They each have the ability to to take all matter of STAB and Priority (save MACH PUNCH vs 'Zone), and they each have means of KO'ing or shutting down Movemons strat.

    I put these two in the 'Wild' catergory because I'd actually prefer that they NOT really be viable checks for Movemon. The reason for this is how absolutely common they are (especially Skarm). We already know how they operate. It would just be such a show stopper for Movemon to be shut down by the most notorious physical wall in pokemon history as well the most generic 'Steel trapper' tactic to boot. But at this stage of things it seems all but inevitable.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  14. capefeather

    capefeather YOU CAN'T STOP ROB
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    One turn is far from instant, as Politoed and Ninetales would gladly tell you. I suppose in more "traditional" terms, I'm asking what CAP 6 should threaten in order to get a Belly Drum off, and/or how CAP 6 should threaten them.
  15. nyttyn

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    Right so I think we need a post or two focusing what CAP6 can, by virtue of typing and Belly Drum alone, CAN threaten because there's been zero focus on that so far. So far, we directly threaten (WITH USAGE STATS!):

    Breloom (Can still Spore on predicted Belly Drum) (13.02%)
    Blissey (Can paralyze with Thunder Wave but lol who runs twave bliss, seismic toss will fuck over low HP CAP6.) (6.11%)
    Chansey (See blissey) (2.26%)
    Gliscor (standard literally cannot touch us at all) (9.65%)
    Toxicroak (Standard Set threatens with, at best, Drain Punch @ +2) (6.14%)
    Lucario (+2 CC, +2 Espeed kinda sucks) (5.42%)
    Metagross (trick sucks, CB hammer arm might hurt a lot) (5.23%)
    Forretress (Only with Custap and even then Custap Explosion has a chance to shit in our cornflakes) (10.08% * 15.14% = 0.01%)
    Tentacruel (30% scald burn chance) (7.62%)
    Donphan (Can't do anything to CAP6) (7.26%)


    Based on virtue of typing alone, CAP6 will always threaten these pokemon. And based on virtue of typing alone CAP6 only counters

    Gilscor
    Donphan


    We need to talk about how we're going to address this depressingly small list because having zero checks or counters at +6 will mean absolutely nothing if CAP6 can't even get in a Belly Drum in the first place.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
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  16. Namso

    Namso
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    What should CAP 6 threaten to Belly Drum successfully, and how should CAP 6 go about doing this?

    Honestly, this is a harder question to give a definitive answer to than I initially thought. However, we can start off by breaking this topic down into two categories: threatening the opposition defensively and threatening the opposition offensively. Shall we dissect them? We shall.

    Threatening the opposition through defensive means.

    A good starting point would be to define what it exactly means to threaten something defensively. We can begin with a simple example as follows (don't overthink it too much, they are very basic):

    The opponent brings out his Agility Metagross against your Tyranitar choice-locked into Stone Edge. In fear of letting it sweep you, you resort to Skarmory right as Metagross doubles its Speed. In this Metagross vs Skarmory matchup, Skarmory forces Metagross out defensively solely due to its typing, physical bulk, and phazing ability. Skarmory does not threaten Metagross out offensively because its Brave Bird STAB is resisted and hits for pitiful damage against Metagross. This is an example of a Pokemon that threatens the opposition defensively, so a possible definition we can conclude is as such: A Pokemon threatens the opposition defensively either by one or a combination of: typing resistant to opposition's STAB moves and takes minimal damage from coverage moves, bulk respective to opposition's offense of choice, and phazing/status moves. In other words, forcing a switch without direct damaging attacks.

    With this in mind, we can denote that this CAP already fulfills one of these aspects, and that is its decent defensive typing. Further down the process, we can also assume it will have the bulk to deal with the powerful onslaughts. However, I highly doubt phazing/status moves will be used, so that is out of the question. So, assuming CAP has the bulk to withstand certain non-resisted physical hits due to the nature of Steel/Flying being primarily physically defensive, the following is our list of Pokemon CAP 6 threatens out due to defensive presence in order to pull off Belly Drum:

    Blissey lacking Flamethrower/Thunder Wave.
    Celebi lacking Thunder Wave.
    Donphan lacking Roar.
    Ferrothorn lacking Thunder Wave (Leech Seed doesn't matter too much since CAP 6 will likely be OHKOing things for this to not take effect).
    Gliscor.
    Hippowdon lacking Whirlwind.
    Some variants of Jirachi (paralysis hax is still a problem from Body Slam).
    Landorus-T (Stone Edge could be an issue in some cases).
    Metagross lacking ThunderPunch.
    Scizor (only if it's Choice-locked into Pursuit, Bullet Punch, or -1 Superpower).

    It's a pretty small list when you think about it, and even smaller when you consider the Pokemon actually using moves that I mentioned along with them (some of which are quite common). You can also consider the plethora of Choiced attackers locked into a move CAP 6 shrugs off, such as Terrakion's X-Scissor or Heatran's Earth Power; however, a smart opponent won't be using these moves freely without considering CAP 6's existence. So all in all, there are situations where CAP 6 can threaten something out defensively and use Belly Drum successfully, albeit not as many as we probably have hoped.

    Threatening the opposition through offensive means.

    This is probably the more self-explanatory kind of category. We all know what offensive pressure does. Heatran will force Ferrothorn to switch out because of Fire Blast, Rotom-W will threaten Skarmory out because of Thunderbolt, Scizor will threaten Terrakion out because of Bullet Punch, etcetcetc. However, I think this may be a bit harder for CAP 6 to accomplish because, as far as I'm concerned, I don't think this CAP is going to be packed with an Attack stat over base 100 to be significantly threatening outside of Belly Drum. After all, threatening the opposition offensively means instantly posing as a huge threat through strong super effective attacks, which CAP 6 probably isn't going to be equipped with (Iron Lol and Lol Peck). However, I also think that threatening the opposition through offensive presence includes having a wicked good boosting move ready for use, which this CAP has (ERMAGHERD! BELLER DRURMMM), and the bulk to take a hit. I mean, this scenario can be seen with something like Quiver Dance Volcarona vs defensive Politoed. Yes, Politoed can hit it super effectively with Scald, but Volcarona can boost up its Special Defense and Giga Drain it, so it would probably be a better idea to switch Politoed into your Roar Heatran. It's probably a dumb example, but hopefully you get what I'm saying. That's the kind of offensive pressure I see CAP 6 pulling off, not resorting to weak unboosted STAB attacks to hopefully threaten to kill something with it. I guess I'll pick out what CAP 6 could probably force out because they cannot do the needed damage to stop a Belly Drum sweep, rather than force out in fear of unboosted STAB attacks:

    Dugtrio.
    Espeon lacking Hidden Power Fire.
    Forretress (Volt Switch is probably not going to do upwards of 38% damage despite it being super effective).
    Gastrodon (Scald burn will suck, though, if the player has nothing better to handle CAP 6).
    Gyarados.
    Jirachi lacking Electric- and Fire- coverage.
    Landorus-T.
    Lati@s without Hidden Power Fire.
    Reuniclus (Focus Miss).
    Defensive Starmie (same deal with Gastrodon).
    Tentacruel (same deal with Gastrodon).
    Vaporeon lacking Roar (same deal with Gastrodon).

    Because I feel like I'm rambling chaotically and quite tired, none of what I'm trying to convey is probably making sense or is even correct. Ahh well, I think I covered both sides of this threat ordeal (what threatens CAP and what CAP threatens) with my viewpoints regardless so that's fine with me!

    Edit: In response to @alexwolf regarding my offensive threat list, I excluded Pokemon that take super effective damage from our STAB attacks because I'm not sure if CAP will even have the power to OHKO them outside of Belly Drum. I guess it'll happen to Pokemon that take 4x the damage or are really frail such as Breloom and Infernape. What I did include are Pokemon CAP 6 will threaten out because of Belly Drum due to them not being able to do the damage to prevent it, which I guess can be connected to defensive pressure anyway.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
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  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    The lists of Pokemon that nyttyn and Fuzznip made are mostly accurate, but there are few things i would like to add or remove. First, i would exclude any defensive Water-type as a Pokemon that we can setup on for two reasons: Scald and Drizzle. If a burn occurs as we setup or rain is up then we are fucked so setting up on such Pokemon is usually not gonna be an option unless we are really desperate. For the same reason i would exclude SpD Jirachi, which has a 30% chance to cut our sweep short with Body Slam, a risk that we won't be able to afford most of the time.

    Also, in Fuzznip's list of Pokemon that the CAP will threaten via offensive means i think that something is mixed up. In this list there should be Pokemon that CAP can threaten offensively immediately, not after setting up. Almost all Pokemon in this list are Pokemon that the CAP threatens defensively (by virtue of its typing) and not offensively. Here are my two lists of Pokemon that i think the CAP can threaten offensively and defensively (chosen between every set of OU Pokemon):

    Threatened defensively, which means that they can't do anything significant to prevent the CAP from setting up
    • Blissey without Thunder Wave (Thunder Wave has 25.587% usage)
    • Specially Defensive Celebi without Thunder Wave (Perish Song could be a trouble too), Baton Pas Celebi, and Choice Scarf Celebi
    • Donphan without Roar (Roar is used only on 4.875% of all sets)
    • Dragon Dance Dragonite in rain, Substitute Dragon Dance Dragonite
    • Dugtrio
    • Dual Screens Espeon without Hidden Power Fire or in rain and offensive Espeon in rain
    • Standard Ferrothorn without Thunder Wave
    • Forretress
    • SubSD Garchomp, Choice Scarf Garchomp, and every other Garchomp set in rain
    • Gliscor (we will be faster than defensive Gliscor with Taunt so it's not a concern)
    • Haxorus without Superpower and depends on our weight (Low Kick)
    • Hippowdon without Whirlwind (Whirlwind has 57.676% usage)
    • Landorus-T without Superpower (only the Scarf set commonly uses Superpower)
    • Calm Mind Latias, Dual Screens Latias, and Offensive Latias without Surf in rain
    • Dual Screens Latios
    • Stealth Rock Metagross without Hammer Arm, Choice Band Metagross (we need great physical bulk for this), and Agility Metagross
    • Choice Scarf Salamence in rain, Dragon Dance Salamence in rain
    • Bulky Swords Dance Scizor, Choice Scarf Scizor, Trapper Scizor, Baton Pass Scizor

    Threatened offensively, which means that the CAP can OHKO them or damage them significantly while potentially outspeeding them
    • Alakazam (without Focus Sash)
    • Breloom
    • Celebi
    • Conkeldurr
    • Dugtrio
    • Espeon
    • Gengar
    • Infernape
    • Keldeo
    • Mamoswine
    • Terrakion
    • Toxicroak
    • Tyranitar
    • Venusaur
    • Volcarona
    In the list of Pokemon that are threatened defensively i only mentioned Pokemon that the CAP can potentially take all of the attacks in each set for less than 50% damage. This means that i didn't mention Pokemon that the CAP may be situationally able to setup on, such as CB Scizor locked into Bullet Punch or Choice Scarf Latios locked into Draco Meteor. Also, Sitrus Berry will help the CAP threaten defensively much more threats, so it's something we should consider as well for Pokemon that can barely do more than 50% damage to the CAP.
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  18. Korski

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    Personally, I would rather not try and set up against anything offensive, if only because you are in effect helping these Pokemon KO you in the process by shooting down your own HP. Stuff like Latios, Terrakion, Gengar, Infernape, Keldeo, Breloom, Scizor, and the like are responsible for the strongest and fastest attacks in the tier, and we would be foolish to pursue any setup plan that involves tanking their attacks. Realistically, if any of these Pokes are capable of getting a hit off on CAP, it will greatly diminish its ability to even pull off a Belly Drum in the first place, let alone sweep after the boost. I would predict much of the time these Pokes are just better off continuing to attack CAP and get it below 50% HP before getting KO'd or whatever. Trying to go the route of threatening out offensivemons would involve some serious implications down the line, especially in stats; the potential for a CAP4-like domino effect there is enormous.

    Our typing gives us really good chances against generally defensive weakmons like the ones in the first part of Fuzznip's post. It is extremely convenient to me that almost that entire list is completely shut down by Taunt or, by extension, Substitute, or in theory any number of the "lesser-used moves" we discussed (or didn't discuss) in Concept Assessment that would facilitate the free turns required to "safely" use Belly Drum. That's actually a decent list of really commonly-used Pokemon, so I think we should get focused on using them to set up, ideally with the help of the movepool. We've got a great neutral STAB in Flying, so 2-move coverage shouldn't be completely unviable if we want to use the 4th slot for ease of setup. I'd like to eventually come up with a clever combination of abilities and moves that don't make these switch-forcing moves obvious and then easy to play around.

    Then, after setup, I'd like to avoid getting backed into a corner by Magnezone; that's just too easy a stop for the opponent. I'd also like to avoid getting incapacitated by a simple Phazing move from Skarmory or Hippowdon, who both are already easy to use as catch-all defensive tanks. Ideally, Skarmory would be a check to CAP insofar as it was able to check Excadrill in early BW1, where it could Whirlwind mid-game but lost all its options at under 40-50% HP or if Exca was the last Poke standing. By extension, and based on the previous paragraph of this post, I would like to avoid being easily checked or countered by the Jirachi, Heatran, and other common walls in the tier, as that would be counter-intuitive to the setup process.

    So, I am not as interested in being reliably impervious to revenge-killing by Choice Scarfers. If some folks want to run around with a bunch of Scarfers on the same team to over-prepare for CAP in the playtest, that's their prerogative; I'll be happy to use the other 5 members of my team to take full advantage of them. I think we should be open to speed boosting of some kind as a possible answer to Scarfers and for a more secure sweep, but we shouldn't depend on it. With all the Scarfers out there it would just be overkill, and taking away Scarf Pokes' ability to revenge-kill is such a dramatic alteration to the metagame we are begging to go too far.
  19. LupusAter

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    Adding on what Korski said, I think CAP shouldn't be able to reliably withstand neutral hits, since for the purposes of this project this means being at least 3HKOed by them, and that, combined with our list of resistances, would make for a really great defensive pivot, especially if we give it some form of recovery to, in our intentions, give it a second chance at setting up. Even if we leave it threatened only by one end of the spectrum, we would basically make another Skarmory.
  20. nyttyn

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    This list is completely worthless because it is poll jumping rather heavily by assuming that CAP6 is bulky enough to tank Outrages that even defensive juggernauts like Heatran, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn struggle with (in addition to tanking Dugtrio's Stone Edge with a comfortable level of HP as well as Fire Punch/Fire Blast and friends which are still hitting for neutral in Rain), assumes that CAP6 has a certain speed (see: (we will be faster than defensive Gliscor with Taunt so it's not a concern), as well as the massive number of base 100s and higher that are listed under 'potentially outspeeds'), and assumes that we will have enough strength to threaten Espeon, Alakazam and Gengar, who only takes neutral damage from all of our attack. It is also flat out wrong and irrelevant in many places (such as failing to take into account the fact that Haxrous runs Aqua Tail and listing Scarf Scizor, who is not relevant in the slightest), which only further detaches from any merit it possesses. I would take a step back and rewrite your entire list without making any assumptions Alexwolf. I would also take that time to correct any errors and remove irrelevant pokemon/sets, because as stands your post is absolutely fraught with errors.
  21. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Reposting this now that this has (hopefully) C&C mod approval (pls pls pls emma say its ok :(

    ·
    O.k, so basically, I disagree with Celebi, simply because any defensive stall team will have Perish Song Celebi (since there is 0 use for Nasty Plot), and I don't agree with the other Celebi sets you listed, since all of them either have U-Turn or Baton Pass (BP Celebi and SDef Celebi are FYI the exact same set and both often run Perish Song so I don't know what you are trying to pull here outside of misinfomation) which means CAP 6 cannot technically set up. If I wanted to be pedantic I could claim Scarf Celebi has HP Fire which means you cannot set up on it if its used HP Fire, or if its U-Turning. For obvious reasons, I consider Scizor in a similar boat, since you cannot really "force out" Scizor since its either U-Turning (in which case you cannot switch in and set up), or its an offensive SD Scizor which will destroy you. Point being, the 2 most common Scizor sets destroy CAP 6 if it attempts to set up so ill disagree with that....

    ·
    I will give you Donphan, and Blissey, and maybe Sub DD Dragonite (which can possibly spam DD if your switching in on it and trying to force it out, thus getting to something like +2 with MS active after your Belly Drum, which can really put you under pressure unless +6 BP OHKOs thro scale. DD Dragonite under Rain only works if you have dedicated a teamslot to setting up Rain yourself, since if your opponent has Rain its either Rain Dragonite, or its carrying Waterfall / Aqua Tail which CAP 6 cannot take.

    ·
    Espeon and DUgtrio I will give you, although I imagine that Dugtrio has good counterplay options between your average Stone Edge, A 1 HP Reversal, or a Memento but whatever, ill give you this.

    ·
    Ferrothorn I disagree with, since Thunder Wave is still fairly common, and even Leech Seed + Protect + Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet + Belly Drum is just a massive dick to you in general. I personally wouldn't set up on a Ferrothorn, since it has a really good chance at either stalling you out, or crippling you with Thunder Wave.

    ·
    Forry has Volt Switch which hits you for super effective damage, AND gives your opponent a safe switch as you Belly Drum (assuming that you got it in safely avoiding a Volt Switch from Forry on your switch. 50% + 12.5% from SR, and then whatever from Volt Switch puts you damn low. Forry even has a chance to hit you again if Sturdy is active which again risks you taking more damage. IDK, I can let it pass I guess since Forrys VS is weak as hell, although this depends on the sort of special bulk CAP 6 is expected to have.

    ·
    Garchomp: Either has Fire Blast, or its running SD Aqua Tail with Rain support. Either way, its going to obliterate you, heck, I bet a +2 Outrage does a lot unless you have Skarmory level defences. Shit, Dragon Tail even gets a bit of use in my experience.

    ·
    Gliscor: Please do not assume you will outrun Gliscor. That is some serious speed we are giving CAP 6, especially when you remember that Gliscor runs Taunt on 2 of its sets that run 224 speed (near max), and even ignoring Taunt on its more defensive set. You are either running some serious speed on CAP 6, or running bulk to take hits better.

    ·
    Haxorus: Like always runs Superpower ffs.

    ·
    Hippowdon: Please do not suggest Hippowdon doesn’t run a phasing move. As an OU player and a member of OU QC, you should know that Hippowdon (at player levels decent and above), always runs a phasing move. Heck, Its Hippowdons 4th most common move. Please don’t make this claim as its just silly. Woth noting that together Roar and WW have like 65% usage or something so pretending to doesn't get much usage is incorrect.

    ·
    Landorus-T: I am 50/50 on this because +2 Stone Edge hurts like hell, as does any set that uses Gravity as you switch in, as does any set that has U-Turn which would prevent you setting up if you switched into it etc etc.

    ·
    CM Latias I don't enjoy either because Roar isn't uncommon, or it can run CM + HP Fire and destroy you, or its under Rain and will hit you for six with a Rain boosted Surf, or its one of that small majority that are decent ladder players that actually run Thunder or something (IIRC Haunter likes running that stuff) on Latias. Either way, you lose.

    ·
    DS Latios has Memento so good luck trying to set up on a Latios, hoping to hell that it isn't in that 90% of Latios that actually run offensive sets.
    ·
    Salamence ill give you this, although id like to know how much a +1 LO Outrage does to CAP 6, because I bet its a lot. You also need to have a Politoed on your own team (if its on the opponents team they have Hydro Pump / Aqua Tail or something so gg ur fucked). Worth noting that using Rain yourself means that you have 0 shot at setting up against a Rain team which hinders your oppotunities a bit.

    ·
    Metagross: Isn't seen but sure, ill give you this.

    ·Looking at the Offensive Threat List…

    ·

    [*]Alakazam (without Focus Sash)
    [*]Breloom
    [*]Celebi
    [*]Conkeldurr
    [*]Dugtrio
    [*]Espeon
    [*]Gengar
    [*]Infernape
    [*]Keldeo
    [*]Mamoswine
    [*]Terrakion
    [*]Toxicroak
    [*]Tyranitar
    [*]Venusaur
    [*]Volcarona


    Click to expand...

    -Zam always runs Focus Sash, period. Even if it doesn’t its running LO, which I bet will OHKO CAP 6 with Focus Blast. And. Even if Focus Blast will miss, it might have HP Fire which cripples us all the same. Zam will beat CAP 6 90% of the time, and saying otherwise is pretty incorrect IMO.


    Breloom + Conk + Tar + Croak are all mons I will give you... except if you don't attack them and use Belly Drum instead, then they will all destroy you. Conkeldurr and Tar I am a little 50/50 on regardless, because both of them are very bulky, and could very easily take a +0 super effective attack from you anyway. Breloom and Croak I am a little more understanding towards because they cannot really take flying attacks at all, although if they outspeed CAP 6 or predict the Belly Drum then you lose. Worth noting that Sash Loom will beat you.

    Celebi ill give you because HP Fire is rare, although against any defensive team it has perish Song which rapes you.

    Dugtrio + Espeon: See my previous post in that yea, in practise you will beat them, although again, they have counterplay options.

    (why are you mentioning pokemon in this list, that you already mentioned, like listing a pokemon that you 'beat" twice doesn't count as beating 2 pokemon -_- )

    Gengar: Ill give you Sub Disable, cos that set hits like a girl. You do not beat Lo Gengar, unless you have really good bulk (HP / SDef) AND invest in that bulk (which means you either miss out on speed or Attack if you invest). Life orb Gengar just does way 2 much with Focus Blast. Sure, it could attack, and you can elect not to Belly Drum, and you can kill it, but in the process it stopped you from being able to Belly Drum so you basically get a 1 for 1 (since you are useless if you cannot drum) - an excellent trade IMO for your opponent in stopping the Belly Drum for the loss of only 1 pokemon. Id make that choice every fucking time especially if im using an offensive team that BD could nuke (teams that Gengar find themselves on)

    Infernape: has super effective Fire STAB, will prolly outrun us, and as such I don’t consider this a very good answer at all.


    Keldeo: Better hope your not running Rain (in which case LOL all those Dragons you said you beat you now lose 2) and heck, even if its not running Rain, you better hope you have some serious special bulk because that STAB Hydro Pump is going to hit like a truck. Would be very surprised if this doesn't cripple you enough to prevent the drum if sand is up, if Rain is up id be very surprised if your not OHKOed... Worth noting that Specs Keldeo still beats you regardless.

    Mamoswine: Adamant Lo Mamoswine can only 4KO Skarmory, so I guess that maybe, you can set up if you have that sort of bulk. If you don't have that Bulk however, then you need to be able to take a LO Adamant Icicle Crash (which you do not resist) AND a LO Adamant Ice Shard AND hope that you don't die. I don;t think you can Belly Drum on a Mamoswine sorry

    Terrakion: CB / SD / Lead all threaten to Destroy you. CB hits you far 2 hard, SD also hits you like a truck of you attempt to switch (and LO would hit you hard enough without a SD bosot), and Lead has Sash as well as Taunt to prevent set up, while also hitting you fairly hard with CC.

    Volcarona / Venusaur: Both run Fire moves, in the case of Venusaur it very likely has Sunlight boosting its HP Fire to high levels, and Sleep Powder to shut down CAP 6 anyway…. Like, the only way CAP 6 is beating them is if its outspeeding them, but Volcarona has QD and 100 base speed, and Venusaur has Cloro, so that doesn’t really work.

    I can acknowledge, that for some pokemon, I twisted the scenario (eg dug, forry) since CAP 6 should be able to beat these mons unless Memento and VS respectively are there / do enough damage. Despite this, there are many more examples I did not twist, that just destroy you (ie all the fire mons you mentioned, as well as Hippowdon) and that is clear misleading. I acknowledge, that on your offensive calculations list, you went down and listed mons that you can OHKO with your STAB moves, and that is also ok, but you make a huge amount of judgements when doing so, and that is not (in my humble opinion) ok. For instance, you assume that you outrun all of these pokemon, and you assume, that taking 50% of your HP in OHKOing these pokemon, is "ok". Just to make this clear, if I am running an offensive team (like most of the mons you listed will be present on), then I will attack CAP, and shut it down from sweeping me with Belly Drum, the exception being, if I can outspeed and OHKO it with my scarfer in which case I will switch out to my Scarf Jirachi as you Belly Drum and revenge you anyway. Just so this point is clear, I will reiterate it. If, against an offensive team, CAP 6 is "unrevengable" or on my offensive team lacks a suitable revenge killer, then I will sacrifice that Gengar, or that Keldeo, to take off 50% of your health, preventing the belly drum, and then I will proceed to set up on your Base 80 (or so) attack, 45% mon, with my SD Lucario (or whatever), and then sweep you ass clean. This is a "fair trade" since if CAP 6 is that much of a threat, then ill trade a 1 for 1 to stop it, if its not a threat, then I bring in my revenge killer and trade nothing for a kill.

    If CAP 6 has a huge amount of speed this this arguement is invalid, although with huge amounts of speed, you are STIll forced into a coinflip situation with offensive teams, in do I attack or do I drum, as well as the host of other issues in giving this cap really excellent speed.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I did nothing more than follow up on what our type has given us. If you haven't noticed, this thread exists in order for us to talk about Pokemon that we could POTENTIALLY setup based on the only clues we have right now about the CAP, its typing and Belly Drum. According to you we shouldn't talk about any threats that we can potentially setup because we don't know the CAP's stats and hey its defense could be equal to Dugtrio's. So to clear this, i am not saying the CAP can surely setup on those Pokemon, i am saying that the CAP has the potential to setup on those Pokemon if we give it the necessary traits without going out of our way though, because a huge basis has already been given to setup on all those Pokemon (our typing). The only thing i assumed is that CAP will be able to outspeed defensive Gliscor (the only common Gliscor set that commonly uses Taunt), which unless you think that the CAP will have less than base 60 Speed is a pretty fair assumption, and also if you consider that the CAP will be a sweeper and thus most likely max out its Speed.

    @ginganinja

    About my defensive threat list. You have confused two things. First the list was never supposed to be about Pokemon that we could surely setup on. How can this be true when we don't know the stats, moves, and abilities of the CAP? I didn't even mention this because i assumed it was a given that any list that would be made here wouldn't be absolute, just hints as to what we could setup on based on our typing. Isn't this what we are supposed to do in this thread? So, of 'course Celebi can use T-Wave or Perish Song on us, Dragonite can use Fire Punch on us, CM Latias Roar, etc but so what? We can fix all those issues with stats, abilities, and the right movepool if we decide to do so. For example we could have Taunt to prevent annoying non attacking moves and Thick Fat or Flash Fire to protect against fire moves (it's just an example please don't argue about those abilities). I ask one more time, isn't the point of this thread to find what are the Pokemon that the CAP could potentially threaten offensively and defensively and force out in order to get the Belly Drum off, based on the only thing we have right now, our typing? So this is what i am doing and you nitpicking the POTENTIAL Pokemon that we could setup on serves little to no purpose. If you at least told me which of those Pokemon we should focus to work on being able to setup on then this would be helpful, but just dismissing some of our POTENTIAL setup targets based solely on our typing is pointless.

    The second thing that you have confused is that i am suggesting some things when i am really not (the only time where i suggest something is when i say that the CAP will be able to outspeed defensive Gliscor, which i already explained above why is a fair assumption to make), i am just listing facts. If Whirlwind on Hippo, Superpower on Haxorus, Roar on Latias, and so on are common or rare in good play can't be proven here and is not what matters the most anyway. I am just listing the facts that come out directly from the last usage stats, what you make with them is up to you, but the sure thing is that i am not assuming anything and certainly not misleading anyone as you said.

    Also

    I really wonder where did you get this impression... I said that we could potentially outspeed those Pokemon which in turn makes them potential Pokemon that we could threaten out with offensive pressure. For one more time, i believe that the meaning of the word potential is clear. This means that whichever Pokemon out of that list we choose to be able to force out with offensive pressure later we should pick the appropriate tools to do this (be it Speed, priority, or whatever). So if we want to be able to force out Keldeo, which our typing helps do, then we have the option of giving to the CAP a Speed stat higher than 108 and a Flying move that OHKOes it, this is what my list was saying. It wasn't saying ''we will be able to force out all those Pokemon via offensive pressure because we will have 4500 base Speed. The other thing that you assume in the bolded sentence is taken straight out from your head so no comment. Oh and finally, you say that if the CAP is unrevengable after setting up against your offensive team then you will gladly sac the Pokemoon that the CAP threatens offensively in order to not get swept. The point is that you might have ways to check the CAP, although unreliable ways, and you may need the Pokemon that the CAP is threatening to KO to deal with an even bigger threat. An easy example would be a CAP on a DragMag team facing a Mamo. Do you let Mamo die in fear of getting swept by the CAP or do you keep Mamo alive to deal with the incoming dragon onslaught. Of 'course this depends on what your teammates are but i wanted to show you how things are not so clear and cut as you make them seem.

    EDIT:
    Those Pokemon are all seen without Choice Scarf too so this means that we can potentially outspeed non-Scarf versions. Also the idea that the CAP will max HP is how you see it but it's not the same for all.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
  23. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Just making this clear: if we are Belly Drumming, we can't run a scarf
    So even if we give CAP 6 Base 130 speed(which it is NOT getting), with the need for defensive investment, it will probably run 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def which means it hits 296 speed without investment. This means ANY scarfer(practically speaking) outspeeds this thing. And a LOT of scarfers resist priority.
    So no, we aren't potentially outspeeding much.
  24. nyttyn

    nyttyn Blink Blink
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    Again. The core flaw in your list is that you are making assumptions and posting about potential. You didn't post about pokemon CAP6 should threaten, you posted " [what i] think the CAP can threaten offensively and defensively." You cannot make any assumptions that are not based on typing alone for what we might counter - and in the case of Belly Drum, you cannot make any assumptions on CAP6's bulk, which very well might not be enough to take neutral hits or extremely powerful resisted ones.
    You can only make assumptions based on typing alone what CAP6 can threaten offensively, not defensively, especially due to the heavy burden of HP it requires to set up.
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    You still don't get it... I am not making any assumptions, i am listing Pokemon that the CAP could potentially force out, offensively or defensively, based on the only clue we have right now (our typing), in order to setup. I don't know what else to say to make this clearer to you really. What i posted wasn't personal opinion, it was just the Pokemon that the CAP either resists their STABs, hits super effectively with its STABs, or the combination of both. Also it is funny how you contradicted what you said by making the assumption that the CAP will have enough power to threaten any offensive Pokemon (last sentence). Not that i agree with this logic (it is ridiculous, assumptions are fine as long as they have a solid base) but whatever...
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
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