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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 10a - (Attacking Moves Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 30, 2011.

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  1. Thorhammer


    Jun 18, 2008
    Tomohawk has Hidden Power, which has identical BP. No matter what, if it wants that type coverage, it can get it.

    The fact that Ground is immune to it isn't an issue. If it can learn U-Turn and/or Baton Pass, it already has access to those to moveswitch out of Ground-types, and if not, it can't moveswitch out of Ground-types no matter whether it gets Volt Switch or not. In fact, if it uses Volt Switch frequently for the purpose of moveswitching, that would give Ground-type Pokemon the ability to nullify that effect, and therefore promote them as counters.
  2. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    So I've theorymon'd an Icy Wind set here. Let's see how it works:

    Tomohawk @ Leftovers
    Ability: whatever floats your boat
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 252 HP / 132 SpA / 124 Spe (124 puts it at 237 Spe, outrunning 0 Spe base 100s and all base 111s and below at -1)

    Icy Wind
    Air Slash
    Aura Sphere

    vs. 4/0 Tornadus / Thundurus switch-in: 44.7% - 52.7% (guaranteed 2HKO w/ SR and genies don't get an attack off unless they're Scarfed)
    vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 35.2% - 41.9% (Yache), 70.4% - 83.8% (otherwise; 2HKO)
    vs. 4/0 Latios: 33.8% - 40.4% (Potential 2HKO w/ 2 rounds of SR, guaranteed 2HKO w/ 3)
    vs. 192/0 Zapdos: 33.1% - 39% (Potential 2HKO w/ SR)

    vs. 0/0 Gengar: 26.8% - 31.8% (+ Air Slash = 81% min damage, 95% max)
    vs. 4/0 Terrakion: 18.8% - 22.2% (+ Aura Sphere = 2HKO)

    And on and on. Put a bunch of frail-ish switch-ins here or offensive Pokemon that are weak to one of Hawk's STABs or whichever HP or coverage move you select and you've got an interesting momentum-maintainer against offensive teams and what may amount to complete dead weight against stall. Or jack up the SpA EVs to 252 and see some even greater damage output.

    An Icy Wind --> U-turn / Baton Pass combo could work out well for scouting, as would an Intimidate-forced switch followed by an Icy Wind-forced switch immediately after. The big problem here is that it's pretty easy to scratch Thundurus and Zapdos and a few others off the checks list if this goes down, as Hawk can 2HKO a good number of faster foes with two Icy Winds or Icy Wind + a STAB or coverage move once it gets their Speed down. So, if I were basing a decision off of Reach's desire to keep both Zapdos and Thundurus as solid checks, I would say Icy Wind for Disallowed.
  3. LeviLamprey


    Nov 24, 2010
    Heat Wave should be allowed over Flamethrower, if not for the greatly more relevant flavour then for the slightly higher Special Attack as well. Skarm doesn't have EQ, Leaf Blade and Waterfall, so the moves need to be limited when outside flavour (obviously every Pokemon has some non-flavour moves, but Heat Wave will do). Aura Sphere is absolutely essential for this Pokemon to be what it's supposed to be: it needs Special STAB on the Fighting side for sure, being such a prominent offensive type nowadays and sure to help the momentum concept by ensuring YOU hit the enemy. PLus, those paws just scream for it. Air Slash is also a great way of flinch haxxing, and Hurricane lets it get great usage on Rain teams. Both of these are fairly obvious. I support U-Turn because it just makes more sense than Volt Switch and has the important concept of not being blocked by Ground-types. Also, I feel Icy Wind and Baton Pass are two options that should not be disregarded, but the former is not essential. This Pokemon appreciates at least one boosting move and BP to become versatile. Also, Tailwind is an obvious but little-used move: however, this attack has many situation-saving roles where the extra speed is vital and unremovable. This move can be a game-changer when used correctly. (Check the Speed something Warstory recently posted in Dragonspiral for a little evidence.) And there's a few of my thoughts. Oh yeah, Shadow Ball is also a good coverage move, so if the movepool isn't too overloaded, this flavour-relevant(the 'aura' paws and Fighting-synergised host attack should be added in some way.

    EDIT: Ignore Tailwind and Baton Pass, forgot it's only Attacking moves.
  4. Thorhammer


    Jun 18, 2008
    I would've liked to see Icy Wind be added, but you've made some good points about why it would be unwise. Icy Wind for disallowed.
  5. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Jun 1, 2007
    All grass moves (namely Energy Ball, Giga Drain, and Grass Knot) should be disallowed for the same reason I would like Water attacks to be disallowed, having redundant coverage with Air Slash/Aura Sphere/HP Ice. Neither typing offer anything important that those your stabs + HP Ice can't cover.

    I would like to know what Reach think of Hex? On one hand it's 50 BP when the opponent isn't suffering from any status affection thereby making a rather weak move to use. Now on the other hand the odds of this Pokemon getting a status affection move like Thunder Wave appears rather high and that in turn could make Hex a rathe potent weapon to use against Psychic/Dark types.
  6. Wikey


    Jul 4, 2006
    @Korski: As good as your points are I feel like this makes me want Icy Wind even more because it would be such an amazing momentum stealer/gainer. We would have to figure out a different set of checks/counters for Tomohawk but I think it would be worth it in the end.

    E: I also agree that we should allow Heat Wave and disallow Flamethrower because Flamethrower is better for sweeping. I think Zapdos is a good example of how Heat Wave's PP/Accuracy limits it to countering specific threat on a defensive set.
  7. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 18, 2008
    I would like to note here that I have a hard time foreseeing Hurricane Tomohawk being a big deal specifically on Rain teams. Once of the most pressing issues of the current BW OU metagame is the fact that your team most likely will only fit one Weather-changer--you can rely on Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Politoed/Ninetales/Abomasnow to bail you out against other types of Weather teams, but against the same type you simply have to build the rest of your time to beat it. Teams with Tyranitar must build to beat opposing Sand, etc. Tomohawk is terrible against opposing Rain teams: it is in danger from Tornadus, Thundurus, Lati@s, Dragonite, Rotom-w, all of which offer a more significant threat to Tomohawk than it offers in return. For Tomohawk to have any utility at all on a Rain team it would probably need to use a Scarf, and generally Tomohawk will likely have better options most of the time. While Hurricane + Rain seems tempting, I would speculate that good players will use Tomohawk with Sand or Sun nine out of ten times, even with Hurricane.
  8. capefeather

    capefeather toot
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2009
    I thought about it a bit more. I still think that Icy Wind should be disallowed if we want Thundurus and Tornadus to be reasonable checks to Tomohawk. While it's true that Tomohawk has to put Icy Wind in its movepool and predict the switch-in to win, that's the kind of "hairy situation" that better fits a matchup like Landorus imo. Although the case for Volt Switch has been strengthened, I still think that Volt Switch should be disallowed because it outclasses U-turn in all the wrong ways for this concept.

    I've reconsidered my stance on coverage moves. Being too strict on this may encourage a large support movepool that perhaps Tomohawk really shouldn't get. I'll admit that I also kind of forgot about SpD Skarmory... Fire Blast seems to be nigh-required to beat SpD Skarmory on a Tomohawk intending to invest a lot into HP and Speed; on the other hand, it has a chance to 2HKO Jirachi. I'm leaning toward allowing Fire Blast and Heat Wave. Grass is another notable type, and whether or not to beat Jellicent and Rotom-W is not really set in stone. However, I think that Rotom-W should counter Tomohawk as per Rising_Dusk's comments in the Counters Discussion, so Grass Knot should be allowed but Energy Ball and Giga Drain should not. Dragon Pulse should also be disallowed because it hurts Lati@s severely.

    I'd actually completely forgotten to post about Hurricane when I made my previous post O_O I'm inclined to agree with reachzero and say that it wouldn't hurt much to allow Hurricane. I think that Hurricane can be afforded due to the high cost of running it (low accuracy or rain support); being countered by Rotom-W helps with this cost as well.
  9. The Other Doug

    The Other Doug

    Jun 13, 2009
    The issue of Hurricane is certainly a conflict. On one hand, it seems really powerful, as Korski's calcs have shown. But it does have poor accuracy, almost requiring you to put him on a Rain team, which isn't the best idea as reachzero explained.

    So an idea I'd like to propose is Make Hurricane an Egg Move, illegal with other key moves.

    For example if we put Tomohawk in the Fairy Egg Group, it could learn Aura Sphere (Togekiss) Super Fang (Pachirisu) and Hurricane (Whimiscott), but it wouldn't be able to use any of these moves on the same moveset.
  10. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 30, 2009
    Comments on Pending moves.

    Crunch - CAP1 doesn't need all manners of flashy moves just because it can get them.
    Dragon Claw - Refer Crunch.
    Dragon Pulse - Stings Lati@s too hard for comfort, no.
    Dual Chop - Refer Crunch.
    Earth Power - No useful coverage, but its still a nice flavour move, so yes.
    Energy Ball - Needs to be checked easily by Rotom-W, so no.
    Giga Drain - Needs to be checked easily by Rotom-W, so no.
    Grass Knot - Hits bulky waters while being checked by Rotom-W, so yes.
    Hi Jump Kick - CAP1 doesn't need all manners of flashy moves just because it can get them.
    Hurricane - Abstaining on this topic, since I feel it should be allowed only due to a personal opinion, and can see where both sides are coming from on this.
    Lava Plume - Why not? Burns can be useful in the scheme of things.
    Muddy Water - This gives it a decent Water move, but forces it to gamble. This doesn't gain too much coverage, but I think it still does ok on CAP1. It's a good doubels move as well you haters
    Psychic - No real coverage off this, so no.
    Psyshock - Would allow solely because of side-effect.
    Rock Blast/Stone Edge/Head Smash - CAP1 doesn't need all manners of flashy moves just because it can get them. I would allow Stone Edge though,
    Scald - WHy not? Burns are good, and help to rack up momentum.
    Super Fang - I'm not sure on this. This heavily damages loads of its "checks", but it also seems like a useful crux move.
    Surf/Hydro Pump - No. Give this a reason to use Muddy Water.
  11. Gerard


    Feb 16, 2011
    Volt Switch- This gives coverage and power to the CAP, altough getting out o a situation and doing a little damage is awesome, for that purpose U-turn is just as good (less power but fullfils the same concept) and it's not Blocked by Ground Types
    * And this might be important but many flying type pokes has it already so it wouldn't be so "crazy" as to give it an ellectric move

    Foul Play - This is a Momentum Poke, and i agree, being able to overpower your foe or just have the ability to do so if you want, this doesn't make you more powerful than most of your counters, Ranku, Starmie, Zapdos, etc... none of them would mind to being hit with this move considering they don't have an awesome attack (and you would have to predict the swich just to use it since if you don't you're more likely going to be killed)

    Hurricane- Nice STAB option, and this would help to counter rain, taking their own weather against them, this is a great attack (and the excellent 30% of confusion adds a good chance of extra momentum) and without rain would be risky enough so that this doesn't become a sweeper (since really, rellying on luck each turn is not something good at all)

    Icy Wind - Helps with Obvious swich-ins and makes your pokes "safer" since if they can get in safely, thay can easily eliminate your opponent's pokes or at least garantee another swich (giving you TONs of Momentum), for thesame reason Low Sweep should be alloweed just beacuse it' not really powerfull with it's attack stat, but still has STAB and you gain the same effect just if you want to go for one or the other (this could also lend to your opponent sending Ghost type pokes and making easier a double swich)
    * If you think Icy wind is good for coverage the Low sweep is the next best choice

    Scald - I support having Scald in this CAP movespoll, Why? because it makes your opponent think: "what pokemon should i send? this..., but whait! What if it has Scald? what of my pokes would cara bing burned? i know it only one third of chances to happenn but if it does, who is able to come and dont give a sh!t?" most stuff with guts is week to flying and thing like Starmie is resistant, and Ranky loves being burned so it wouldn't make it overpower it's foes (this also creates conflict in what you want to use power and luck (scald or the possible low sweep) or 100% effects (icy wind) making you think more about how to work this Cap

    Super Fang - another danger for swich ins, and a good choice for defeating stall, this should help you into making your opponent fear the possible lost of half his health and not being able to send something that isn't immune to it (this wouldn't be overpowered since if blocked (by a sub) this would be a massive lost of momentum and missing is allways possible)

    to resume:
    U-turn should be allowed
    Super Fang should be allowed
    Scald should be allowed
    Hurricane should be allowed
    Low Sweep should be allowed
    Icy Wind should NOT be allowed if Low Sweep is allowed
    Foul Play should be allowed
    Volt Switch should NOT be allowed
  12. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

    Apr 18, 2008
    Hurricane is another one of the more controversial moves it seems. Wallbreaking would detract away from the core concept. However, I think the 30% chance to confuse your opponent fits well into the concept of momentum. It's not 100% like Machamp's Dynamicpunch, but the rate is high enough that your opponent might have to change their strategy a bit or try to battle with a different set of mind. And when their Pokemon is actually confused, they have to make the decision on whether to risk a "null turn" or switch to another teammate (who then can be confused as well or crippled by status). It also gives time for Tomohawk to set up any strategies of his own.

    I am for Hurricane to be allowed. The Other Doug brought up a good point that it could be an egg move. It would be all up to those who create the final movepools later on.
  13. ryik7


    Dec 25, 2010
    it'd be almost a crime to disallow this flavor-wise, but you are right.

    icy wind:YESH, if it hits thundurus, so be it, it's rather unpredictable as it is if used right:

    go smeargle!
    go tomohawk!
    (OH NOES! fakeout kills sash...)
    return smeargle!
    go thundurus! (or whatever)
    tomohawk used icy wind!
    return thundurus, go blissey!
    tomohawk uses focus blast!
    Ò-Ó (yes, wii-only symbols)
    reachzero gives up! (just jking)

    also, almost everyone in gen4 has icy wind, even persian.
  14. ryik7


    Dec 25, 2010

    ok then, hurricane is allowed again. hurray.
  15. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 30, 2010
    Yeah, but Tomohawk is a genV Pokemon, so previous gen move tutors are not available to it. While that hs no effect on its competitiveness, it should not just be given because "everyone gets it," because as a geV Pokemon, that is just untrue.
  16. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay Guess who's back? Na na na! *breakdances*
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 12, 2009
    Icy Wind: DISALLOW

    I think people are seriously underestimating the power of Icy Wind, and I'm not just talking about damage (although in reality, people are underestimating damage outputs too). When you have a move that can theoretically 2HKO your main counters, that is not good. Thundurus cannot switch in anymore. Many people in this thread have claimed that Tomohawk cannot stay in on Thundurus after an Icy Wind...but do you realize that Thundurus is at -1 Speed? And Icy wind does 45%-51% damage to it? After SR, that is a guaranteed 2HKO on one of Tomohawk's greatest counters. Similar things can be said for Zapdos. The -1 Speed really takes its toll on a lot of things, as it's possible to 2HKO a lot of things without even taking an ounce of damage. There's a reason why Tomohawk has average speed: so that it can be countered by certain threats. Icy Wind takes away those threats.

    Furthermore, there is almost no difference between the damage output of Icy Wind and HP Ice, so saying that "it's a weaker HP Ice" isn't a great reason. It's a measly 15 BP off - even less than the difference between Flamethrower and Fire Blast. It only misses out on one KO (Garchomp), which HP Ice doesn't even guarantee! It doesn't lose any other OHKO's or important 2HKO's as a loss of power. It really is that powerful, yes. It should be disallowed.

    Hurricane: ON THE FENCE

    Hurricane is an interesting topic. There's a few issues I have with it that gives it my full support. I am not quick to throw out the possibility of a Scarf or Specs set combined with Rain support, which would not only give it access to a 120 STAB BP move with no drawbacks, but also give it the opportunity to OHKO Tyranitar with a reliable STAB move. That is something Tornadus cannot do. It also has better overall bulk than Tornadus with a good defensive typing and Intimidate. A Scarf/Specs set will definitely be considered, and may be extremely good.

    However, Rain also brings out Tornadus, Thundurus, and Zapdos. Which all pretty much screw over Tomohawk in Rain. So, it's not like it's unstoppable. Outside of Rain, we still have that terrible 70% accuracy that is quite annoying to rely on. In regards to Steels switching in and getting hit with another move, I agree with Korski in that Fighting STAB is pretty powerful combined with Hurricane. However, Fire moves are somewhat of a moot point, since either Rain will be running, or you have access to a Focus Blast-esque move that will miss because you want to have a Fire move on your movepool. Overall, I think I will support this move, but I am still wary of the consequences.

    Disagree on the egg move, though. I don't think it's that powerful nor controversial enough to warrant such a thing. Besides, you can only go so far with move combinations (ie: egg move Aura Sphere all you want, this thing will get the TM for Focus Blast).

    Flamethrower / Heat Wave: ALLOW

    Mostly redundant coverage with Fighting. I don't think it will be used much, since it causes a lot of 4MSS plus limits Tomohawk's options, but it's still useful enough to be considered on a movepool. Both should be allowed. Not like there's really enough of a difference between the two to warrant an exclusion of one.

    Grass Knot: ALLOW

    I agree wholeheartedly with capefeather. It allows us to hit bulky Waters for good damage, but still allows us to have Rotom-W counter us. It's a perfect fit..

    Water Moves (Surf / Muddy Water / Scald): DISALLOW

    I don't see why we should be giving yet another tool for Tomohawk to use on a Rain team. It doesn't make much sense to give this thing any Water move, flavor or not. It's also a great neutral attack on things that resist Tomohawk's STABs, including 2HKO'ing Zapdos and Thundurus. I'm going to have to say no to this.

    Volt Switch: ON THE FENCE

    I understand that Gyarados is rising in usage, but is a OHKO with an Electric move on a 4x weak Pokemon really causing this much of a scare? I think we've lost sight of what the move will really be used for, and that is scouting and switching. I feel that, while unnecessary in most cases, Volt Switch shouldn't be disallowed. There's not really a huge reason to do so. Unless I'm missing some major calculation that will make this terrible (and to be honest, it's pretty much just using HP Electric), I don't see how this is OP'd or UP'd in any way. The reason I'm on the fence, however, is the popularity of such an unnecessary move, which might decide the outcomes of movepool battles way too much.

    U-Turn: ALLOWED

    Basically Volt Switch with no immunities but with almost no power.

    Super Fang: DISALLOW

    I think the problem with Super Fang is just how well it really does against Stall, especially with a Pokemon that has great bulk and a possible access to recovery. I'm all for shifting momentum, but being able to crush Stall so easily detracts from the purpose of the concept in my opinion.
  17. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Was fun while it lasted
    is an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 19, 2008
    Notes on Pending/Controversial moves:

    Earth Power, Psychic, and Psyshock should be DISALLOWED. My reasoning behind this is that the only thing you're really checking at all with these moves would be specially defensive Poison-types, who almost always have no way of setting up and are pretty rare anyway. I also want Tentacruel to be a pretty solid stop to Tomohawk, so I do not support either of these moves.

    Energy Ball and Giga Drain should be DISALLOWED, but Grass Knot should be ALLOWED. These moves are almost exclusively here for checking bulky Water-types, if ever they are used. In this case, I would advocate that while Suicune should be covered, if we can help it Vaporeon should not be, and thus the weight-based Grass Knot is more suitable as a coverage move should it ever be wanted.

    Hurricane should be ALLOWED. A STAB move above 100 power would be pretty useful, even if it does come at the price of low accuracy. Air Slash is honestly not the most threatening of moves, especially if they are faster than Tomohawk But, that's a problem for Focus Blast as well.

    Volt Switch should be ALLOWED. If people want to go down this route then that should be fine. It's not like a non-STAB, 70 power attack is doing much threatening by itself, anyway. More to the point, it adds a little bit of unpredictability to CAP1 should it be needed, which seems somewhat lacking at this point.

    EDIT: Icy Wind should be DISALLOWED. I don't like the idea of hitting Zapdos for super effective damage and then not giving it the opportunity to Roost off the damage before it can be hit. That's it really.
  18. capefeather

    capefeather toot
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 26, 2009
    I was kind of sad when the Tentacruel killer moves were moved to Allowed, but now I can sort of understand the reasoning not to disallow them. Tentacruel is a prime Toxic Spiker, and while this doesn't bother Tomohawk as far as momentum goes, it does bother the rest of its team. I guess that the option should be there if the movepool submitter / team builder wants it.
  19. Banryu


    Feb 26, 2009
    [/COLOR]Icy Wind: Disallowed for the reasons that Korski states.

    Volt Switch: Disallowed. Seems like a no-brainer to me, really. It is both too good and not good enough, in a way... I don't believe that it should be relying on this move to do damage, and as stated previously, Ground-types switching into this move can rob the Tomohawk user of the momentum he's trying to gain, which obviously goes against the concept. In short, U-turn is better both for balancing and fulfilling the concept (also it makes 150% more sense flavor-wise). It's like how special Hydreigon/genies will sometimes run U-turn, y'know?

    Hurricane: Undecided for now. I've not seen a lot of convicting arguments to sway me to either side just yet. D:
  20. Thorhammer


    Jun 18, 2008
    I'm going to switch my view on Hurricane to undecided for now, as well.

    However, these arguments against Volt Switch just don't make sense. The damage it can do with the move is nothing it can't already do with HP Electric, and people seem to be assuming that allowing Volt Switch means not allowing U-Turn. I think U-Turn should be thought of as a given, but Volt Switch should still be an option if players want it.

    And as I've asked previously, but was never given an answer for, is Ground-types being capable of nullifying the effect of Volt Switch a problem? We're already worried about enough things being able to match up well enough against Tomohawk; why not give an entire type a substantial advantage?
  21. petrie911


    Aug 27, 2005
    Focus Punch should be removed from Required

    Tomohawk is a 5th generation Pokemon, and does not have access to the Focus Punch TM. Since the requirement of Focus Punch comes from Tomohawk's Fighting-type, let's review the Fighting-types introduced in the 5th generation and which ones can learn Focus Punch.

    Emboar -- Cannot learn
    Conkeldurr -- Level up
    Throh -- Cannot learn
    Sawk -- Cannot learn
    Scrafty -- Level up
    Mienshao -- Cannot learn
    Cobalion -- Cannot learn
    Terrakion -- Cannot learn
    Virizion -- Cannot learn
    Keldeo -- Cannot learn
    Meloetta -- Cannot learn

    A review of 5th gen methods of learning Focus Punch reveals incredibly low distribution, and little pattern with regard to type in distribution.

    With only 2/12 fully-evolved 5th gen fighting types learning the move, and such poor distribution through methods available to Tomohawk, Focus Punch cannot be considered a required move.
  22. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 30, 2010
    As far as the ground types having an advantage, I have no problem with that, but int your argument about the damage it can do I think you are completely missing the point people are trying to make. Yes HP Electric would be just as powerful, but the point is that HP Electric takes up a moveslot just to do that. With out Volt Switch you would have to consciously decide that you want it to carry HP Electric for beating certain threats. However with Volt Switch, it is more likely to run a electric move as it would mostly be used for its secondary effect.

    Additionally, if you are forced to run HP Electric to have an Electric move it means that you lose out on other typed HP. Limiting its offensive coverage movepool is important to prevent it from becoming a sweeper, so letting it have Volt Switch would not only give it a way to hit many Waters with out needing to use HP, but would also free up HP to be used as another type. Personally, I do not want that and would prefer it did not get Volt Switch.

    However I would be all for U-Turn, should that be an option.
  23. Rising_Dusk

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 27, 2009
    Note that it's TL discretion what is required and what isn't now. We're not following T-M/M-M guidelines adamantly anymore, so whether or not some BW Fighting-type Pokemon get it isn't really up for discussion! reachzero, by putting it in the OP as required, is saying as TL that it needs to be required by his personal requirements. That's totally ok.
    Sure, you could use HPElectric, but if you use HPElectric you cannot use HPIce. Volt Switch is also spectacular in doing solid damage off of CAP1's higher SpA to Pokemon like Thundurus, Tornadus, and Gyarados, all of which can feasibly check CAP1. This, coupled with SR vulnerabilities on these Pokemon and the availability of HPIce on the same set pushes Volt Switch over the limit in my opinion. U-turn is a very different case, since it does pitiful damage and doesn't offer any notable type coverage even if it did hit respectably.
  24. smashlloyd20


    Aug 7, 2010
    I think Super Fang should be Disallowed. Granted, it's a pretty good momentum move. My issue is that it's TOO good. With this, Tomohawk would completely wreck stall. We don't want this to happen. This would essentially force stall teams to carry a Ghost-type or get wrecked by a set of something like Roost/Super Fang/Taunt/Air Slash. We've already decided we don't want Tomohawk to be able to break stall on its own, and Super Fang would just push it over the edge.
  25. Thorhammer


    Jun 18, 2008
    Is he now? I don't believe it's been made clear whether reachzero listed Focus Punch as required because he wants it to be required or simply because he thought that the game still gave a basis for making a requirement. If it is the former, as you suggest, then there is of course nothing more to discuss, but I believe it's perfectly fair to point out that the game does not in fact give a basis for making the move a requirement so that if that instead was his reasoning for making it a requirement, he will know that it is not the case.

    Indeed, those are concerns and potential problems with allowing Tomohawk to use Volt Switch. But I'm not sure they're significant enough to disallow Volt Switch. Tomohawk has two excellent STAB types, and it will likely wish to use both at once. In order to use both Volt Switch and Hidden Power on one sets, it would need to either give up one of its STAB options, or not use any sort of utility move. Now, I realize that we have not decided what utility moves Tomohawk may have access to, but as it can have the ability Prankster, it will surely have some utility moves that can allow it to gain a great amount of momentum, and on a set with Prankster, not using any utility moves would be completely foolish. On a set with Intimidate, utility moves would not be a requirement, but they would still be highly useful. In particular, as the ability is meant to decrease damage from attacks, Tomohawk would likely wish to have some sort of healing move with which to regain the HP lost from doing so. Now, that's not to say that a set with Aura Sphere / Air Slash / Volt Switch / Hidden Power Ice, using the ability Intimidate, couldn't be effective, but I don't think it would be an effective use of Tomohawk.

    And now I'll switch topics. Regarding Super Fang, I agree completely with smashlloyd20 in saying that it should be disallowed for the reasons he pointed out.
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