CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 10a - (Attacking Moves Discussion)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Mar 30, 2011.

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  1. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    All right, we will now be constructing a movepool for this CAP. Because a movepool is multi-faceted, it will be broken up into a few steps in which we decide what moves we're going to allow into the final movepools. This step will be used to decide what attacking moves will be allowed onto this Pokemon. Attacking moves are defined by this article: http://www.smogon.com/cap/process/events/move_discussion . Moves such as Knock Off and Rapid Spin are considered non-attacking moves because they're weak and used for their secondary effects.

    I will include in this post a full list of attacking moves that are considered competitive for Tomohawk.

    1. The list of moves will be separated into three sections indicating the "status" of the move in the current discussion -- Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, or Pending.
      • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
      • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to not be allowed in the Pokemon's final movepool
      • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
      • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are Allowed, Disallowed, or Controversial
    Moves that are considered Required are mandatory for all movepools.

    I put some moves into categories already. They aren't necessarily there permanently, but they won't change unless you post in an attempt to sway me.

    Here is the list of attacking moves we're looking at here:

    Required
    Aura Sphere
    Brick Break
    Hidden Power

    Pending



    Allowed

    Acrobatics
    Air Slash
    Brave Bird
    Close Combat
    Crunch
    Drain Punch
    Dragon Claw
    Dual Chop
    Drill Peck
    Earth Power
    Fake Out
    Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Heat Wave
    Focus Blast
    Focus Punch
    Grass Knot
    Hammer Arm
    Low Kick
    Mach Punch
    Psychic
    Psyshock
    Rock Slide
    Super Fang
    Superpower
    Vacuum Wave

    Disallowed

    Bug Buzz
    Dark Pulse
    Discharge/Thunderbolt/Thunder
    Dragon Pulse
    Hi Jump Kick
    Ice Beam/Blizzard
    Lava Plume
    Rock Blast/Stone Edge/Head Smash
    Shadow Ball
    Weather Ball
    Draco Meteor
    Leaf Storm
    Overheat
    Muddy Water
    Scald
    Surf/Hydro Pump
    Energy Ball
    Giga Drain

    Controversial
    Hurricane
    Icy Wind
    Volt Switch





    Here is our Pokemon so far:

    Name: Tomohawk

    Typing: Flying/Fighting

    Base Stats: 105 HP/60 Atk/90 Def/115 SpA/80 SpD/85 Spe

    Abilities: Intimidate/Prankster



    1. Move Discussion Posting Rules
      • The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.
      • Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.
      • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.
      • The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.
      • Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.
      • The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.
      • All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).
      • If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

    Before anyone asks, do not bring up Aeroblast, it will not be allowed. This Pokemon does not need any legendary signature moves to fulfill its concept.

    Remember to only discuss moves that you think are controversial in that they have competitive merit. Let's do this!
  2. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Now I know this is supposed to be purely competitive, but I cannot help my self from thinking with flavor in mind. That being said, a large number of the moves on the pending list I do not think belong in its move pool at all, either as far as competitiveness or flavor, including Bug Buzz, Draco Meteor, Giga Drain, Lava Plume, Leaf Storm, Overheat and most water moves. It has plenty of coverage from other moves and none of these really fit its concept.

    Draco Meteor (besides the fact that no non dragon/event Pokemon can learn it) along with Leaf Storm and Overheat not only make no sense, but also defeat the purpose of this Pokemon. Those moves are almost a way to go out with a bang as far as momentum is concerned. Using them gets you one last push before you opponent can take control. As we want this Pokemon to gain momentum, not give it up, I am strongly against these moves.

    Bug Buzz, Giga Drain, Lava Plume and the Water moves on the other hand serve no real purpose for this Pokemon, and while they are not explicitly bad, all of them are completely absurd, and since they are not needed should be left off.

    Outside of Lava Plume, other fire moves could be nice, so I fully support them, especially Heat Wave as it not only is useful, but also makes my flavor side happy.

    Hurricane is another great move I support because it is a Powerful STAB, which is nice, and would be a great way to hit Rain teams hard, and possibly steal their momentum, especially more defensive ones, since with Drizzle SS being banned you are more likely to out speed rain team Pokemon.

    Other than that I don't really feel strongly either way about any of the other pending moves. However, as this Pokemon is a special attacker, many physical attacks would be more for flavor, and as such I suggest you take Drill Peck off the Allowed moves list, seeing as it does not have a beak to peck with.

    To summarize:
    Allow Heat Wave
    Allow Hurricane

    Do not allow Draco Meteor or its variants
    Do not allow Lava Plume, Bug Buzz, Giga Drain
    Do not allow Water moves
    Consider removing Drill Peck
  3. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    bug buzz is pending but shadow ball is disallowed? both get SE psychic coverage why no shadow ball? I for one like having shadow ball for having good two move coverage with perfect accuracy. we don't have a very reliable special flying move, and there may be cases where we would want the accuracy over the coverage flying gets.

    and hurricane seem like a good option to have for rain teams, or a less reliable more powerful STAB option

    edit - earth power, heatwave and grass knot: giving Tomohawk a lot of coverage moves seem like a good idea to me adding versatility without having to resort to hidden power as well as giving some good/unexpected attacking combinations like: heatwave + HP dragon
  4. Gothic Togekiss

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    Was they're a decision on what would check and/or counter CAP1? I would like to know this before deciding which Pending move being discussed should be moved to Allowed/Disallowed.

    I would consider moving Lava Plume and mostly all water moves to the disallowed area. Lava Plume because of their 30% burn rate and the water moves because of combination of flavor and partial redundant coverage, mostly the coverage part. What could Surf/Hydro Pump hit that Flying STAB/Fighting STAB/HP Ice couldn't?
  5. doominic77

    doominic77

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    Tomohawk will need Aura Sphere and Air Slash as strong attacking moves. Snarl would be a good move to hit Starmie. Earth Power and Heat Wave would also be good moves.

    Psychic type moves aren't very great flavor-wise and neither are Dragon-type or Water type moves. Super Fang could be used to stop stall. U-turn would be a great flavor move as well as useful competitvely but Volt Change isn't very good flavor wise however it could also be useful against Starmie.
  6. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    doominic77 - Tomohawk will probably be switching out if starmie comes in
  7. Paradox

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    There are a couple of big ones here that definitely need discussion. Most significant imo are Hurricane and Volt Switch, as these are the attacks that are most likely to see significant use on Tomohawk if they are included. There are a number of other big ones, like Hydro Pump, Flamethrower/Fire Blast (I like Flamethrower just because Scizor is such a tyrant these days), and Earth Power. I also think that Ice Beam or Thunderbolt may warrant some discussion, but I haven't formed enough of an opinion on them to comment at this point. These attacks really are just significant for slightly improving our already solid coverage, so I think they should take a back seat at this point. (And concerning the post about Bug Buzz: Dark and Ghost attacks provide fantastic coverage for Tomohawk, along with hitting Psychic types. Bug Buzz on the other hand would usually by a waste of a moveslot, since Psychics are the only Pokemon hit harder by it.)

    My thoughts on Hurricane:

    Pros
    • Provides a powerful STAB attack in the vein of Breloom's Focus Punch
    • Tomohawk's STABs and weaknesses provide Rain abusers like Thundurus and Starmie ample switch-ins, and it is easily revenged by many other rain abusers, meaning that Tomohawk probably won't be broken as a rain abuser.
    Cons
    • Could be deemed "too powerful"
    • Could be deemed "too centralizing", as Tomohawk would be very useful on Drizzle teams, especially since it counters Sand so well. This could possibly make rain very centralized.
    At the moment, I don't think that Hurricane is "too powerful", since Tomohawk is weaker and significantly slower than the current "Hurricane-abuser", Tornadus. I also can't see rain becoming to over-centralized, since sand is just so useful.

    Volt Switch:

    Pros
    • The attack provides a lot of momentum through allowing for a free switch.
    • Electric has decent coverage alongside Flying/Fighting, making it somewhat useful offensively, especially alongside a solid SpA stat.
    Cons
    • I've heard concerns that Volt Switch is "too easy" of a way to obtain momentum, and limits our creativity.
    • If a Ground-type (or something with Volt Absorb, etc) switches in, it gives the opponent a large amount of momentum.
    Concerning the first con I brought up, I think that we have decided on enough of Tomohawk's features (typing, ability, etc) that allowing Volt Switch would no longer be limiting. I also definitely don't think that Volt Switch would get significant enough usage over other options (like maybe Yawn, Substitute, or Thunder Wave – not to poll jump) for Volt Switch to limit how Tomohawk is used. I simply think that it can be another way for it to gain momentum. Concerning the second con, I think that due to Tomohawk's ability to deal with many Ground-types 1-on-1 and the foresight provided by Team Preview, immunities can be worked around fairly easily.

    I think that these two attacks should receive the most attention at this point, and would like to hear others' opinions on them.

    I also think that Draco Meteor especially, but also Overheat and Leaf Storm should be disallowed. Draco Meteor is a signature Dragon-type move (other than that event Jirachi, but still) that provides no benefits to this Pokemon, since Dragon attacks are terrible without STAB, especially with a good neutral STAB like Flying. More importantly, these attacks cede momentum in enormous ways. For a dedicated special attacker like Tomohawk, these attacks will almost always require it to switch-out after attacking, losing momentum in many scenarios. I definitely don't think that there is a great enough need for a powerful Dragon-, Grass-, or Fire-type attack to use them.
  8. Flarephoenix332

    Flarephoenix332

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    Rock Slide - 0 Att Evs, No LO, Neutral Nature: 32.11% - 38.13% to 0 HP EV, Neutral Nature Thundurus. I don't see any reason we shouldn't allow it, seeing as Excadrill gives us precedent to not include Stone Edge with it.

    Hurricane - Benefits (from) Rain Dance team, and while that is a very common weather style, I don't see that as a reason to not include it.

    Personally, I'd throw out Bug Buzz, all the Dragon moves, All the Water moves, and Overheat. Heat Wave I could be talked into for flavour reasons, but Fire isn't going to offer any additional coverage that Flying/Fighting can't handle, except blowing massive holes into Ferrothorn and other x4 Fire-Weak pokemon.
  9. NeoSeth

    NeoSeth

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    Fake Out and Vacuum Wave sound really good on a Momentum Pokemon. They could let Tomohawk act as a lead, gaining early momentum. Also, Tomohawk can revenge Cloyster and other Fighting-weak Pokemon. So that's good.

    That aside, Aura Sphere and Air Slash seem necessary for reliable STAB (Focus Miss is anything but). Hurricane is also cool, but may be too good.

    I'll be back with more thoughts later.
  10. cco

    cco

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    After re-reading this I've noticed that this gets a bit into Counters Discussion, but I think that that's a necessary topic to re-visit at this stage.

    I'll split this into two sections, I believe that this is the point where Tomohawk is going to be truly defined. Now, as a lot of people brought up in the old Counter Discussion Thread, we don't want anything to set up on Tomohawk, it needs a way to pressure it's opponents into attacking.

    I've found that the first move that I really want to support is Icy Wind. With Icy Wind, we can hugely reduce the four-moveslot syndrome which I believe Tomohawk might encounter as he is released into the metagame. It also gives players a certain "panic button" even if you have no clue what they're about to switch in. It also helps to Solidify Reuniclus as a Tomohawk Counter I've supported Reuniclus as a counter for Tomohawk, but I think that our Flying-Feline should be able to get out of a hairy situation such as a Reuniclus/Blissey switch-in. So I think that Volt Change would be good for the movepool. However, I'd like to lay down an argument for the inclusion of U-Turn to the movepool. It's for a very simple reason. U-Turn can be blocked by a Ground-Type switch-in. Also, if we remove Volt Change from the movepool, we can create a somewhat cement check for for Tomohawk in Gyarados I believe that Gyarados would be a good example for a check because it can be Forced out by a good switch in, making it take more stealth rock damage. Keep in mind that Gyarados is really just an example switch in, however, I believe that Tomohawk shouldn't be able to get past Bulky Pokemon which do little to gain momentum This gives users a chance to get Pokemon which threaten those and make ideal Tomohawk partners in (We'll figure out those in time). I am going to throw down that Energy Ball, Leaf Storm and Giga Drain should be disallowed so that it really can't touch bulky waters


    The argument so far:
    Icy Wind
    Switch Volt Change for U-Turn so that Bulky Waters could act as checks, while still garnering that oh-so-desired switch, move. U-Turn also does little damage, preventing death-foddering to an extent.
    Disallow Energy Ball, Leaf Storm, and Giga Drain to further Cement Bulky Waters as a counter.

    Now then, next point, we don't want pokes setting up on our beloved right? I personally like the idea of being able to drop a Powerful, mostly unresisted move, while Draco Meteor seems neat, I'd much prefer Overheat because it prevents from common hazard-uppers (Skarm and Ferrothorn) from coming in on our good pal. On that same note let's check a quick damage calc.

    Modest Life Orb 252 SpA Tomohawk hits 252/240 Skarmory with Flamethrower for 74.3% - 87.4% always a 2HKO even if Skarm roosts

    Let's see how hard Skarm's Brave Bird hits Tomohawk but never a OHKO, even after Rocks, though if Skarm switches in on a Nuetral hit, it will probably die.

    Skarmory's Brave Bird hits Tomohawk for 48.5% - 57.5%. Which can 2HKO however, if Skarm does this after eating a Flamethrower, it will die.

    As a conclusion I'm going to say that Flamethrower should be allowed, I'm neutral on the other two fire moves, but I think that Flamethrower is all that Tomohawk really needs.

    So we've got all the premier hazard setters covered. Beyond that, for simpler Momentum gaining reasons Fake Out oughta be allowed to help keep opponents on the back foot.

    The only real threat that I see now is Thunderus, who threatens Tomohawk with a STAB thunderbolt while Tomo can do nothing back beyond a somewhat Feeble icy wind. 42.4% - 50.6% on Standard Thunderus from Modest Life Orbed Tomohawk. Even with Stone Edge, Tomohawk needs a Moderate attack investment to hurt it, but boy oh boy, Hurricane from Modest Life Orbed Tomohawk hits for a whopping 68.9% - 81.4%! This means that if Thunderus sets up, it risks having it's clock cleaned hard.


    The last two moves which I want to address are Psyshock and Superfang. I believe that Chansey/Blissey should be able to check variants of Tomohawk who choose not to run a Physical Fighting move. Therefore Disallow Psyshock and Superfang.

    So to reiterate.

    Allow Hurricane, Fake Out, Icy Wind, Overheat, Flamethrower.

    Disallow Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Giga Drain, Super Fang and Psyshock.

    Write-in U-Turn.

    That's all I've got folks, feel free to make your points.
  11. GraffnTrix

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    We need to be remembering that this Pokemon is supposed to regain Momentum, but think about it. I've scoured this gen, and others, looking for something that I wanted to create a new moveset around, and I had an idea. I wanted a Pokemon that could learn Fly and Smack Down. If a Pokemon uses Smack Down, then uses Fly (or vice versa depending on situation at hand,) they could get two moves in in a row, if the opposing party is oblivious. I would nominate Acrobatics but I don't believe it's viable enough because of the need for items in today's fast paced metagame. So Fly and Smack Down then.
  12. yytan12

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    Volt switch, as Flarepheonix said, is a major gain to a team's momentum. Though it does have it's cons (a ground switch in...) which losses a lot of momentum. However, one might think of U-turn instead of volt switch. Even though you are playing off the pokemon's weak attack stat, you are guaranteed a switch (with no resistances) and possibly a gain in momentum.
  13. DetroitLolcat

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    Draco Meteor for Disallowed please. It's a Dragon exclusive move for one, and it also does not fit the concept. The goal of Draco Meteor is to smack something really hard, and we don't want this pokemon to be a wallbreaker.
  14. petrie911

    petrie911

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    All unSTAB physical moves should be allowed.

    Tomohawk has 60 base attack. What on earth is he going to do with them? Even Head Smash or Explosion wouldn't be all that threatening. One could argue whether or not the various moves are flavorful, but in all honesty that's up to the movepool creators to decide.
  15. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    It may be hard to do in this step, but basing (entire) arguments on flavor is not the way to go. I'd like to see arguments on why moves do or don't help fulfill the concept.

    And when you say momentum, you mean speed right? The concept of momentum we are using is not based just on speed. 85 Base Speed is not that fast anyways, so CAP 1 shouldn't be too bothered with it on some sets.

    Hammer Arm should stay where it is. I suppose it won't be really used due to CAP 1's low Attack, but the Speed drop would clearly go well with the concept because you can build a set tailored to the drop. You take control of your own Speed and force your opponent to play by it.
  16. Paradox

    Paradox

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    Just because some people don't seem to know, I'm going to bring up two parts of this stage.

    1. Flavour has no bearing on whether a move should be allowed or disallowed. This is a competitive project. If you want to vote for (or submit) a movepool that fits the design's flavour, go for it. But it has nothing to do with what is allowed or not.

    2. The point of this stage is to determine which moves should be disallowed, not to determine which attacks Tomohawk will actually use. If an attack is simply outclassed or not that useful, that is not a reason to be disallowed. Allowing Tomohawk to beat counters and checks or going against its concept are better reasons to disallow something (For example, Ice Beam hits Zapdos and Thundurus hard on the switch, and imo Draco Meteor/Overheat/Leaf Storm cede momentum by forcing you to switch out).
  17. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
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    DO NOT include flavor in your reasoning. If a move doesn't fit for flavor reasons, don't include it in your movepool submission. That isn't what this thread is for. This thread is all about competitive reasoning. I understand that it doesn't make flavor sense for Tomohawk to get Draco Meteor, I promise. However, while that is a good reason to not put in your movepool submission, that is not a good argument to actually disallow it. "We don't want Tomohawk to be able to crush Latios on the switchin" WOULD be a good reason. See the difference?
  18. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    Ok, so I understand this is not about flavor, and as such the argument "I don't think it should get Draco Meteor because it does not look like it should" is not valid in this forum. However, what about the argument "I don't think it should get Draco Meteor because Game Freak does not think it should get Draco Meteor?" Only Dragons (and event Pokemon) get it, and as such is almost like we are changing a game mechanic. (Yeah I know you gave it to a non dragon 4th gen CAP, but it was still a bad idea then). So isn't that somewhat of a valid argument. (Draco Meteor is the only one I have a major problem with, other moves I dislike the flavor of, but am not 100% opposed to)

    Even if that is not an acceptable argument, that is fine, because I already stated why competitively I don't think it should get them (loss of momentum).
  19. Gothic Togekiss

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    Bug Buzz and maybe Signal Beam should be allowed on the counts that it's horrible coverage move when compared to it's stabs. The only thing it would be hitting hard is Psychic types and most are either neutral to it via dual typing (Bronzong, Metagross, Sigilyph) or so damn bulky that it wouldn't bother them too much (Reuniclus, Lati@s). Signal Beam is all around weaker than Bug Buzz so you know it's not 2HKO any of them anytime soon.

    All Rock type moves should be allowed on Tomohawk. Most of the good ones are physical in nature which in turn means they be going off a pitiful attack score. The only special Rock move in existence are Power Gem and AncientPower. Both are generally weak despite coming off an 115 base special attack.


    Echoing Petrie's statement. It's 60 base attack and lack of physical stat-boosting moves (i.e Sword Dance, Coil, etc) prevents Tomohawk from severely hurting it's counters/checks or anything for that matter regardless if they were super effective or not. I'll be hard pressed to find one physical non-stab move that should be banned on the grounds it breaks this Pokemon.
  20. Unlimited Breadsticks

    Unlimited Breadsticks

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    Bad choices:
    Draco Meteor / Leaf Storm - Doesn't work because the drop in SpAtk obviously hurts your momentum. The lack of STAB on Draco Meteor also makes it inferior.

    Scald / Lava Plume - Their usefulnessis based solely on luck. Ignoring the flavor concerns, running these attacks could net momentum for all the wrong reasons, which would cause people to complain.

    Volt Switch - Considering that Volt Switch is supposed to allow you to switch out when striking a ground type, it would be ill-advised to run it, since the electric immunity should not, in the future when the bug is fixed, stop your ability to keep moving. U-turn works better for this purpose, and wouldn't give Tomohawk unnecessary type coverage.

    Giga Drain - The ability to net HP gain with a modestly powerful attack which many Pokemon are 4x weak to would be overpowering in many many situations, so that would be a poor choice.

    Acceptable choices:
    Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse and Dual Chop - While primarily dragon-themed moves, there would be no serious threat to the theme by including them. Dragon Pulse could be an excellent surprise, but would be far from game-breaking.

    Hurricane - Would give Tomohawk an advantage against rain teams.

    Hi Jump Kick - Tomohawk would have absolutely nothing to gain from this, and would probably be hindered by it. So yeah, it should be able to learn it!

    Foul Play - The option of hitting on the physical spectrum without having to worry about overpowering opponents make Foul Play an interesting choice. Additionally, the correlation between Prankster and Foul Play speaks for itself.
  21. jas61292

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    I'm fairly certain that is not a bug. That's just how the move works. However I do agree with what you're saying, U-Turn would be better.
  22. Unlimited Breadsticks

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    ...bulbapedia lied to me? D:
  23. Thorhammer

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    I agree with this. However, I also suggest taking it one step further.

    Few or no high-power unSTAB special moves should be allowed.

    Tomohawk has base 115 SpA, near-perfect neutral coverage between its STABs, and can use Hidden Power to hit any specific threat it's supposed to combat for super-effective damage. For a Pokemon that's supposed to be tailored towards defensive momentum, it doesn't need anything more than that, and if it did have anything more than that, it would be giving it excessive power and be destructive to its concept. UnSTAB special moves other than Hidden Power should be limited to lower-power, utility-based moves such as Volt Switch and Icy Wind - but definitely not moves such as Giga Drain, Scald, Lava Plume, and Psyshock. Adding the capability to burn, drain HP, or break through specially defensive Pokemon would just be too much. Those four moves in particular should be disallowed, and I also agree with above posters in that all Water moves, as well as Leaf Storm, Overheat, and Draco Meteor should all be disallowed.

    That said, while I am very much in favor of Volt Switch, I also suggest that U-Turn should be allowed, for reasons stated by others previously.
  24. jas61292

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    Well your original sentence was kinda long, and I might have misinterpreted it, but it sounded like you were saying that Volt Switch should switch out when it hits ground types, but there is a bug so that it doesn't make you switch.

    According to bulbapedia "The user will not be switched out if the user is the only Pokémon in the party that is able to battle, if Volt Switch fails to hit the target, if using Volt Switch ends the battle or if the opponent's ability prevents damage from Volt Switch."

    I believe this means that it will not switch out of ground types who are uneffected by it. Also, I kinda know it won't switch out, as evidenced byt Eliese's Emolga not switching out when I switched my Drilbur into it.
  25. Unlimited Breadsticks

    Unlimited Breadsticks

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    So I guess it did lie to me.
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