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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 12a - (Complete Movepool Submissions)

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by reachzero, Apr 5, 2011.

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  1. petrie911


    Aug 27, 2005
    I disagree with this. The original VGM limits were set based on the distribution of moves from real Pokemon, irrespective of how many VGMs were actually good on that Pokemon.
  2. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 18, 2008
    I'll close this thread at 2:06 PM EDT tomorrow, exactly 72 hours from the time of the OP. I like what I've seen from the submissions so far!

    Edit for commentary:

    Okay, it would have been nice if you guys had included the illegal egg move combinations so I didn't have to figure it out myself, but I finally added pretty much every remotely relevant illegal combo to the second page of my spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...21iWW9ZSUwzbEt4S3lZZlE&hl=en&authkey=CL2G8ZsP

    While compiling these, I discovered something worth pointing out. Another reason why a full list of illegal egg move combinations is nice is that it shows which moves are extremely difficult to fit onto a competitive set! For instance, in petrie911's and jas61292's submissions, Aura Sphere and Rapid Spin are illegal together. This means that while each of these submissions theoretically have Rapid Spin, practically it would be rather difficult to construct a reasonably good set actually using Rapid Spin (especially given petrie911's submission, which also lacks Grass Knot). I imagine these users probably added Rapid Spin (a few others did similar things with other moves, especially Hurricane and Stealth Rock) for the sake of having them for the polls, since I don't really understand why you would add moves to the movepool without allowing them to be legal with the moves that would make Tomohawk usable to begin with.

    The moral of this story? When there is a move that nearly every competitive set must have (like Aura Sphere), please, please don't put it in the egg moves. :chaos:
  3. HeavyOctillery


    Sep 17, 2009
    Edited original post with the TMs/HMs list. If there's any discrepancy on what would or wouldn't be a VGM for Tomo, lemme know.

    EDIT: Added Egg Moves, and adjusted some things. Still missing Level Up numbers and reasoning behind inclusions/exclusions.

    EDIT#2: Added inclusion/exclusion reasoning.

    Also, I could use some help in figuring out illegalities with the Egg Moves.

    I disagree with your disagreement. If some non-VGMs can become VGMs when conditions are right, why not the reverse?
  4. Honko

    Honko he of many honks
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Programmeris a Contributor to Smogon

    Dec 6, 2009
    I'll give this a whirl.
    Level Up and Prevo Moves (open)
    Level Up (16 moves, 7 VGMs)
    H - Aerial Ace
    H - Tailwind
    H - Roost
    1 - Tackle
    1 - Growl
    6 - Quick Attack
    11 - Double Kick
    16 - Odor Sleuth
    21 - Reversal
    26 - Fake Out
    31 - Take Down
    35 - Wing Attack (evolves at lv35)
    43 - Scary Face
    51 - Sky Drop
    59 - Aura Sphere
    67 - Air Slash

    Prevo Only (3 moves, 3 VGMs)
    Hyper Voice

    TMs (open)
    TMs (38 moves, 18 VGMs)
    TM01 - Hone Claws
    TM05 - Roar
    TM06 - Toxic
    TM08 - Bulk Up
    TM10 - Hidden Power
    TM11 - Sunny Day
    TM15 - Hyper Beam
    TM17 - Protect
    TM18 - Rain Dance
    TM20 - Safeguard
    TM21 - Frustration
    TM27 - Return (identical move)
    TM31 - Brick Break
    TM32 - Double Team
    TM40 - Aerial Ace (repeat)
    TM41 - Torment
    TM42 - Facade
    TM44 - Rest
    TM45 - Attract
    TM46 - Thief
    TM47 - Low Sweep
    TM48 - Round
    TM49 - Echoed Voice
    TM51 - Ally Switch
    TM52 - Focus Blast
    TM54 - False Swipe
    TM56 - Fling
    TM58 - Sky Drop (repeated)
    TM62 - Acrobatics
    TM67 - Retaliate
    TM68 - Giga Impact
    TM80 - Rock Slide
    TM83 - Work Up
    TM86 - Grass Knot
    TM87 - Swagger
    TM89 - U-turn
    TM90 - Substitute
    TM94 - Rock Smash
    TM95 - Snarl
    HM02 - Fly
    HM04 - Strength

    Egg (Monster/Fairy) (open)
    Egg (Monster/Fairy) (12 moves, 9 VGMs)
    Vacuum Wave
    Baton Pass
    Rapid Spin
    Icy Wind
    Perish Song
    Healing Wish
    Me First
    Close Combat

    Legal combos:
    Vacuum Wave + Snatch (Breloom)
    Baton Pass + Yawn + Encore (Togetic)
    Baton Pass + Icy Wind (Skitty, Mawile)
    Rapid Spin + Haze + Yawn + Icy Wind (Squirtle)
    Yawn + Icy Wind + Me First (Slowbro)
    Encore + Icy Wind + Healing Wish + Snatch (Clefairy)
    Icy Wind + Perish Song (Lapras, Marill, Cubone)
    Close Combat (Snubbull)

    Illegal combos:
    Vacuum Wave + Baton Pass, Rapid Spin, Haze, Yawn, Encore, Icy Wind, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Close Combat
    Baton Pass + Rapid Spin, Haze, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
    Rapid Spin + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
    Haze + Encore, Perish Song, Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
    Yawn + Perish Song, Snatch, Close Combat
    Encore + Perish Song, Me First, Close Combat
    Icy Wind + Close Combat
    Perish Song + Healing Wish, Me First, Snatch, Close Combat
    Healing Wish + Me First, Close Combat
    Me First + Snatch, Close Combat
    Snatch + Close Combat

    Summary (open)
    Total Moves: 69
    Total VGMs: 37

    Notable Special Moves
    Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
    Air Slash
    Hyper Voice
    Grass Knot
    Icy Wind
    Hidden Power
    Vacuum Wave

    Notable Physical Moves
    Close Combat / Superpower / Brick Break
    Acrobatics / Aerial Ace / Sky Drop
    Return / Double-Edge
    Rock Slide

    Notable Other Moves
    Rapid Spin
    Roar / Haze / Yawn / Encore / Perish Song
    Bulk Up / Work Up / Hone Claws
    Baton Pass / U-turn
    Sunny Day / Rain Dance / Tailwind
    Scary Face
    Healing Wish
    Odor Sleuth
    Me First / Snatch
    Fake Out

    Explanation (open)
    First off, what's missing? Hurricane and Heat Wave are probably the most glaring omissions, but I don't think Tomohawk needs either one. Hurricane is too powerful inside rain and too unreliable outside of it. A missed attack is certainly a momentum-killer, so instead of forcing people to run Hurricane for the power, I decided to force them to use the much safer Air Slash. (Including Focus Blast seems to contradict this somewhat, but every Fighting-type gets Focus Blast, and the power gap between it and Aura Sphere is small enough that you aren't forced to use it.) Heat Wave might be a more controversial omission, but with such redundant coverage alongside Tomohawk's STABs, its only real use would be on Choice sets, which I think most of us agree go against the concept. Grass Knot makes much more sense as the main coverage attack for sets that use three attack moves.

    Support-wise, there were a lot of options I ended up leaving out because they seemed like overkill. Trick and Disable would both certainly stop an opponent's momentum, but they would also allow Tomohawk to defeat its own counters; Haze, Yawn, Encore, and Torment can all steal immediate momentum just as effectively without being broken. I strongly considered including Mean Look, but I felt that together with moves like Perish Song, Yawn, and Roost, it was too powerful, and making it illegal with those moves required changing Egg groups, which would remove some other options I like better.

    Priority Baton Passing, whether it's dry passing or sending along 101 HP subs or boosts, is the definition of momentum in my mind. Rapid Spin is there for two reasons; first, removing hazards is a nice big-picture momentum changer (compared to the immediate effects of Encore/Haze/etc), but Rapid Spin is also a great way to make the opponent predictable, which is another important part of momentum. Icy Wind, Scary Face, and Snarl give Tomohawk additional tools to disrupt a sweep; Tailwind, U-turn, and Healing Wish are more offensive game-changers; Snatch and Me First give the bravest predictors a couple more entertaining tools.

    Wish I had more time to work on this but I've probably spent too long already.
  5. Rising_Dusk

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 27, 2009
    I talked with reachzero, and he disagrees entirely with my post suggesting any of that advice. For that reason, you should follow the VGMs exactly as they are on-site and not listen to anything I posted before (which I've now deleted). I apologize for the confusion.
  6. reachzero

    reachzero the pastor of disaster
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 18, 2008
    The rules as written on site give me the authority to declare moves to be or not be (/hamlet) VGMs based on lack of competitive merit, but I have not chosen to do so in this case, meaning the list on site is authoritative in this case.
  7. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 30, 2010

    I just wanted to say that I disagree with this sentiment. By putting good moves in its egg moves, and thus illegal with other useful moves, you are basically inputting a restriction preventing it from doing too much at once. Not only that but illegalities, both important and not so important, are just part of any Pokemon not in the ground egg group.

    As far as competitively important ones, probably the best example would be Azumarril. Aqua Jet is used on almost every competitive set nowadays as a way to easily beat Excadrill in the sand. However, I'm sure most Azumarril would love to also have Belly Drum so that it could forgo the CB and boost up on the switch to decimate everyone. Unfortunately (or fortunately depenting on how you look at it), those moves are illegal together. That's just how it works sometimes.

    As far as Tomohawk goes, having Aura Sphere illegal with moves is really not that big a restriction anyways. On my set at least, Rapid Spin is legal with all 3 of Tomos other important STABs (Hurricane, Air Slash, Focus Blast), so if you want to Spin, it is a completely viable strategy. The illegality is more of a check on it, than a measure to ensure its uselessness.
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