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Celebi (Calm Mind)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Rising_Dusk, Nov 21, 2010.

  1. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Celebi

    Taking this over for Nenloth.

    Status:
    Done (Ready for Upload)
    • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •​

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Energy Ball / Grass Knot
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Celebi's stat distribution gives it a lot of versatility that it can take advantage of to both deal respectable damage and take hits while setting up. Calm Mind, when compared with Celebi's other boosting option, Nasty Plot, is best used with defense in mind, as Celebi's natural bulk and typing allow it to set up more freely and better complement its usual teammates.</p>

    <p>Calm Mind is the most important move on the set because it simultaneously rounds out Celebi's defenses and gives it the much needed power to punch through all but the most dedicated of special walls. Recover helps keep Celebi healthy so that it can set up multiple times over the match or restore HP after taking a hit while setting up. The last two moveslots are reserved for Celebi's attacks. Unfortunately, with only two moves and unexciting STABs, Celebi will always be walled by something no matter what it runs. Energy Ball is a reliable move with consistent damage for primary STAB, although Grass Knot will hit Pokemon like Tyranitar harder at the expense of being worthless against lightweight Pokemon such as Rotom-A. Hidden Power Fire is the main choice for coverage because the ever-present Steel-types of OU that are neutral or immune to Ground-type attacks will destroy Celebi otherwise; however, Earth Power is still a valuable option, as without it Celebi will be soundly beaten by Heatran.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread and Bold nature are the same as for a typical defensive Celebi, chosen for maximum physical bulk and enough Speed to outpace Jolly non-Choice Scarf Tyranitar. The physical bulk serves double duty on this set, however, as it reduces physical damage taken where Calm Mind doesn't help. Leftovers as an item is critical to giving Celebi some lasting power to abuse while setting up. An alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 126 Spe used with a Timid nature allows Celebi to outspeed even the fastest of Suicune, which can be very useful if your team needs the extra Suicune coverage.</p>

    <p>First and foremost, teammates are necessary to cover Celebi's coverage gaps based on the second attacking move you use. With Hidden Power Fire, something to cover Heatran is absolutely necessary to have on your team. Good choices to beat Heatran include Suicune, Swampert, and bulky Gyarados, depending upon the pace of your team. With Earth Power chosen over Hidden Power Fire, Celebi will have issues with Skarmory and Bronzong. Conveniently, Heatran can handle both of these Pokemon effectively and perfectly covers Celebi's weaknesses. Heatran can also eliminate Blissey with Explosion, which would otherwise stop Celebi cold even if it managed to set up 6 Calm Minds. As usual, Celebi will have trouble with strong Pursuits coming from Scizor and Tyranitar, in addition to Scizor's U-turn. In order to lessen the threat of these powerful Pokemon, using either a lure, such as RestTalk Rotom-A with Will-O-Wisp to burn them, or a powerful attacker that can punch through them like Machamp is recommended.</p>
  2. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    Seeing this set actually reminded me of something, the offensive CM Celebi is actually outclassed by Offensive NP so that should actually get removed IMO; ill bring that up with the rest of QC.

    With that said, Celebi does need a Defensive Calm Mind set but i need to ask; exactly what are your EVs meant to achieve? I personally run 252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe (or something of the sort) on my Celebi.
  3. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    CM should still be mentioned in order to live a Fire Blast from Scarftran/Shucatran for offensive sets, although generally it's more inefficient.
  4. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    What would make this set more effective than the Defensive CM Jirachi?
  5. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    It beats it one on one unless Jirachi gets a critical hit. Other than that, it fits a niche in a lot of teams.

    I have used Calm Mind Celebi quite a bit, though not recently. Every time I used it I ran a lot of Defense. Nearly as much as the standard defensive set.
  6. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    Could you please elaborate, KG?
  7. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    This. Those EVs look strange and I don't know what they're accomplishing.

    That said, CM Celebi has always been underwhelming in my opinion because of the following reasons:

    1) Poor coverage - Having Grass/Psychic as its STABs kind of suck. Couple this with Recover and CM, you only have 1 coverage, which isn't enough with the poor STABs

    2) Too many weaknesses - Having 7 weaknesses sucks, especially when you plan on tanking hits and boosting up, since you'll likely be dying faster than you are recovering or boosting. Something like Suicune does defensive CMing better (even without recovery) because it only has 2 weaknesses, and fortunately those two weaknesses are diluted by Calm Mind, whereas Celebi's weaknesses isn't necessarily so (Crunch/U-Turn are Celebi's bane).

    3) Doesn't hit hard enough initially - Well, if something has poor coverage and too many weaknesses, the only real way to redeem yourself is to hit hard as soon as possible. Well, CM Celebi just doesn't do that, not defensively anyway. Base 100 SpA is decent, but is kind of crappy without heavy investment.
  8. Nenloth

    Nenloth

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    Megan, actually I wanted to give it some Defense and HP to live some physical hits, but I may need some bigger investment. That's right.

    Shrang, I think you're forgetting about SpA rise from CM. It does a lot, believe.
  9. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Strange EVs. Defensive CM is good, but MF is right by asking what they do. Wouldn't it be better to start with Speed then HP and Defense before giving Special Attack so many evs when you're just gonna boost it with CM anyways?
  10. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    I'm not. If you go with a defensive spread (I'm going to use Megan_Fox's one here, since your one is really similar to offensive CM at the moment). Without the much investment, even with one CM boost, Celebi isn't hitting very hard. I'll use numbers here. With 80 SpA EVs, Celebi is starting with 256 SpA. That is actually quite weak. Put a +1 boost onto that, you're looking at 384 SpA. This looks a bit more respectable, but still isn't very powerful to do enough. Defensive Celebi is more about building up Calm Minds, and as highlighted in my post earlier, Celebi finds it hard to do this.
  11. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Shrang, you are right when you say Celebi can have a hard time building up CMs, but some calcs would help in to confirm it here for the set's sake. And any team members to remedy the issue could always be stated in the AC.
  12. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    Celebi really should outspeed Timid Suicune, Defensive CM does a great job at countering Suicune but it can't do it if it's getting outsped. I've had the opposite experience to Shrang tbh, defensive CM celebi has always been great for me.

    Surely celebi would beat these two pokemon...
  13. Nenloth

    Nenloth

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    I corrected the EV spread. Is that better or completely remove the Def EVs?
  14. alex 67

    alex 67

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    While it does look good in theory I'll have to agree with Shrang here. Crocune works because it is not only extremely bulky on the physical side, it gets an excellent move in Surf it keeps much of the Metagame at bay and is also a strong and reliable attack. The coverage on this set is so terrible that any decently bulky fire mon is going to wall the primary option (especially Heatran) and for the secondary option levitating steels will wall you without question. Whats even more pathetic is that Earth power isnt even guaranteed to Ohko Heatran without rocks or a boost (even with a negative nature) . This is also just a few examples. The list goes on with many top threats that counters this such as Blissey and Cresselia. Finally with the prevalence of Scizor, Scarf Tyranitar and Scarf Heatran this seals Celebi's fate of being a bulky Calm Minder.
  15. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    CroCune also works because ResTalk makes it hard to take down with status, it has an amazing mono STAB, and Water is a great defensive typing. Celebi really has issues here, as it a: gets destroyed by Heatran (HP Fire) or Scizor (Earth Power), the #1 and #2 Pokemon respectively; b: isn't especially good against Tyranitar, and if it uses Earth Power, it's walled and destroyed by Skarmory and Bronzong; c: Blissey destroys it even more than other special attackers, as it can paralyze or Toxic it and also beat out Recover with Seismic Toss; finally, and this is the BIG BIG BIG one: It's huge huge setup fodder for Dragon-types- especially Dragonite, which switches in with impunity and wrecks it. Grass/Fire or Ground doesn't give amazing coverage, so Celebi is a huge liability in general. It also has a couple other notable issues- 4x weakness to Bug means that Flygon can switch in fairly well and wreck it with U-turn, or Zapdos can come in and U-turn it (or Heat Wave it, or Toxic it and stall it with SubRoost), etc. Celebi has a TON of major counters, especially for a defensive set, and it's a liability for plenty of opposing teams. On top of that, it can't even pull off the whole "water counter" thing all that well, as powerful Water-types (read: not walls) can just blast it with Ice Beam.

    I'm not going to explicitly reject it right now, but I'm going to note that I don't like this set, and don't think it's a very good idea.
  16. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    There is really little reason to use this over any other defensive calm minder out there. Sorry.
  17. whistle

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    this thread could benefit from taking a step back from the massive use of theorymon. every defensive pokemon has its drawbacks and almost all are extreme setup bait for specific sweepers, so just outlining some flaws is not a good basis for calling this set bad.

    i don't want to say this set is proven to work, but husk used it in several of his world cup teams and i've seen numerous other "good" players use it in wcop/tour/other tournament teams as well. with intelligent playing and proper team support, this set works very well. if you've only had cursory experience playing with or against the set, i encourage you to test it more in-depth against players that you consider "good".

    or maybe it does suck. what do i know...
  18. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    Kingdra doesn't fare that well vs Celebi, so it's not 'dragon types' it's 'dragonite' that it is set up fodder for. That's one pokemon...

    Offensive Suicune's +0 Ice Beam to Max hp Celebi:
    40.1% - 47.5%
    So celebi clearly wins this one.

    Timid Zapdos's Uturn vs Max hp Celebi:
    41.6% - 49.5%
    Seems like it can be recovered off fairly easily to me.

    Heatwave vs +1 Celebi:
    35.1% - 41.6%
    Celebi wins

    Flygon's Uturn:
    63.4% - 75.2%
    That's recoverable

    What can bronzong even to celebi apart from explode...payback's not going to 2HKO and celebi can CM and recover up (even if it doesn't have hp fire, GK will be enough after a few boosts).

    Typing? Instant Recovery? This is a pretty ridiculous statement tbh...

    Everything has counters, everything has something that will beat it...what is your point?

    Cresselia gets dominated by Celebi...as does Scizor

    Have you guys used this set before or are you just theorymonning...
  19. SOMALIA

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    Tested this set yesterday on the TU shoddy server, worked great. I got several sweeps and in the scenarios in which I didn't gain a full sweep, Celebi still managed to wreck the opponents team. The only issue I have is the EV spread. Speed Evs are viable, the rest should be very specific and not randomly dumped. I'll do more testing see if investing extra HP evs will be useful while not lacking in securing certain OHKO's 2HKO's.
  20. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    I've used this set in past and still am a bit atm and I can definitely attest to its value. Sure, it has plenty of counters but so do plenty of things (including the majority of celebis other sets). Defensive Calm Mind Celebi definitely deserves a set IMO because the increased Spec Def Bulk can be very useful and definitely separates it from NP Celebi.

    As for the OP, I reccomend you change the EVs to 252 HP / 120 SpA / 136 Spe with a Timid Nature. Max HP for bulk, 136 speed to outspeed Timid Suicune and the rest into SpA. The other possibility would be running enough speed in order to outpace Jolly Lucario (307 Speed) while taking EVs out of SpA.
  21. alex 67

    alex 67

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    CM Cresselia ''dominates'' Celebi and does not get ''dominated'' and I really cant see Celebi taking Scizor's U turn or Bug Bite well either. Do to the massive decrease in power with this set, checks become counters because Celebi cant do enough to keep them at bay anymore. The reason an offensive version of this and NP is viable is because it can actually OHKO Heatran reliably if your opponent mispredicts and is threatening in general.
  22. Nenloth

    Nenloth

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    I said I takes an U-turn from Flygon, from Scizor he won't, obviously. Why make a such remark?
  23. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    I would just like to note that while I haven't used an explicitly defensive CM Celebi, I have used CM Celebi a LOT recently, and haven't been especially impressed. My main complaint is that its type coverage is pretty terrible, it doesn't do nearly enough damage, and it has too many weaknesses. Putting a defensive spread and Recover on it doesn't do much to alleviate the issues I have with it.
  24. alex 67

    alex 67

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    Well even so CB Scizor is doing 40.1% - 47.5% which is a nice little chunk of damage anyway. Also as many people noted the point of a bulkier CM set is to set up as many Calm Minds as possible and sweep. Celebi can do neither because of the reasons listed by the above poster.
  25. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Wait, with what?? Even Scarfed U-Turn does 113.86% - 134.65% to Celebi o_0

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