So many shanderas keep switching in on my espeon, and so many aren't scarfed and consequently get owned by shadow ball. Only one of the shanderas I've fought have gotten 6 CMs, and I still killed it pretty quickly (with an omastar). So yeah, people usually seem to suck with it on PO, except way too many have killed my nattorei whenever I use it.
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Chandelure
- Thread starter tennisace
- Start date
See, this is why I use a defensively ev'd shandera...It still gets 2hko'ed sometimes, however.
@Zeburaika: why would you have an omostar of all things on you team? I /vaporeon does just as good of a job of defeating shandera, and vappy has access to wish.
@Zeburaika: why would you have an omostar of all things on you team? I /vaporeon does just as good of a job of defeating shandera, and vappy has access to wish.
I'm not sure if this has been said yet or not, but Balloon would work very well on the Calm Mind set. It would allow it to set up on Choice Scarf Heatran and Warubiaru when they're locked into Earthquake or Earth Power. Flygon won't be able to revenge kill it either. I don't believe the Balloon pops from a missed ground attack or an attacking hitting the substitute.
Omastar and Vaporeon are quite different in rain, because Omastar is an awesome sweeper, and Vaporeon is way too slow and doesn't get swift swim.
There's a really fun combo (NOT COMPETITIVE BY ANY MEANS) I've been trying.
Deoxys-S@Focus Sash/Light Clay
Jolly Nature, 252 Speed / 252 HP / 6 Def
~Thunder Wave
~Taunt
~Light Screen / Reflect / Knock Off / Stealth Rock
~Light Screen / Reflect / Knock Off / Stealth Rock
Thunder Wave everything in sight, even before attempting to set up rocks. You'll see why.
Hitomoshi@Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Timid, 252 Speed.
~Memento.
You know what to do. A trapped, paralysed opposing lead is gonna get memento'd.
Ranpuraa@Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Timid, 252 Speed.
~Memento.
After this, your opponent will be stucked with a -4/-4 paralysed lead. Brace for epic.
Shandera@Lum Berry/Leftovers
Shadow Tag
Modest Nature, 252 Hp / 252 Def / 6 Sp Def OR
Modest Nature, 252 SpA / 252 Spd / 6 Def
~Hidden Power Fighting
~Shadow Ball
~Nitro Charge / Minimize / Calm Mind / Acid Armor / Substitute
~Nitro Charge / Minimize / Calm Mind / Acid Armor / Substitute
Movepool syndrome. To achieve a clean sweep, you NEED at least 2 support moves (Acid Armor + Calm Mind / Nitro Charge + Calm Mind). However, if your opponent scores a crit while you set up, GG. You just lost 4 team members (hence it's not a competitive strategy, just a fun gimmick). The reason there's not a fire move is that you need flawless coverage - otherwise Heatran will wall you no matter what.
For extra trolling and a bit of pseudo insurance, courtesy of Steeli:
Dugtrio@Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Adamant / Jolly - 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Arena Trap
~Memento
~Earthquake
~Stone Edge
~Claw Sharpen / Sucker Punch
Deoxys-S@Focus Sash/Light Clay
Jolly Nature, 252 Speed / 252 HP / 6 Def
~Thunder Wave
~Taunt
~Light Screen / Reflect / Knock Off / Stealth Rock
~Light Screen / Reflect / Knock Off / Stealth Rock
Thunder Wave everything in sight, even before attempting to set up rocks. You'll see why.
Hitomoshi@Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Timid, 252 Speed.
~Memento.
You know what to do. A trapped, paralysed opposing lead is gonna get memento'd.
Ranpuraa@Choice Scarf
Shadow Tag
Timid, 252 Speed.
~Memento.
After this, your opponent will be stucked with a -4/-4 paralysed lead. Brace for epic.
Shandera@Lum Berry/Leftovers
Shadow Tag
Modest Nature, 252 Hp / 252 Def / 6 Sp Def OR
Modest Nature, 252 SpA / 252 Spd / 6 Def
~Hidden Power Fighting
~Shadow Ball
~Nitro Charge / Minimize / Calm Mind / Acid Armor / Substitute
~Nitro Charge / Minimize / Calm Mind / Acid Armor / Substitute
Movepool syndrome. To achieve a clean sweep, you NEED at least 2 support moves (Acid Armor + Calm Mind / Nitro Charge + Calm Mind). However, if your opponent scores a crit while you set up, GG. You just lost 4 team members (hence it's not a competitive strategy, just a fun gimmick). The reason there's not a fire move is that you need flawless coverage - otherwise Heatran will wall you no matter what.
For extra trolling and a bit of pseudo insurance, courtesy of Steeli:
Dugtrio@Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Adamant / Jolly - 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Arena Trap
~Memento
~Earthquake
~Stone Edge
~Claw Sharpen / Sucker Punch
I say give Hitomoshi and Ranpuraa a Sash and use Magic Coat on Deoxys-S, or maybe a Magic Mirror Espeon, to avoid hazards at all costs (as MH users could Taunt you and give a free switch-in to Forry). You could also have Dugtrio somewhere, meaning grounded pokémon would be at -6/-6 and you would have SOMETHING that could actually show up earlier to trap random pokémon.
Also, I guess you need something against phazers and lol Ditto.
Also, I guess you need something against phazers and lol Ditto.
The reason I didnt mention Sash in the candle and the lamp is because the opposing lead might carry Stealth Rock.
Also, added Dugtrio.
Ditto and phazers are GG. There's nothing you can do against those. You could sub (for ditto and crits) or taunt (roar, whirlwind), but that'd make Shandy a mono attacker, and you do not want to do that. You really don't.
Also, added Dugtrio.
Ditto and phazers are GG. There's nothing you can do against those. You could sub (for ditto and crits) or taunt (roar, whirlwind), but that'd make Shandy a mono attacker, and you do not want to do that. You really don't.
There's a good reason why Shandera is the most used Pokémon on the DW ladder. Getting rid of a Pokémon that can stop your main sweeper or even more important getting rid of an auto weather starter is crucial for the outcome of a match. For that reason most Shanderas are scarf'd.
First when Shandera was released quite some people were really excited about SubCM Shandera, because unlike Dugtrio it has a move to boost stats (Claw Sharpen doesn't count) and two immunities. In reality it is next to impossible to start a CM Shandera sweep out of the blue as mediocre "bulk" and common weaknesses along with being easily revenge killed by Ttar + Doryuuzu.
Now, I tried some gimmick sets and found a surprisingly reliable way to start a Shandera sweep:
Jolly Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
252HP / 4Atk / 252Spe
or 4HP / 252Atk / 252Spe
<Trick>
<Thunder Wave> / <Body Slam>
<U-Turn>
<Iron Head> / <Wish>
First when Shandera was released quite some people were really excited about SubCM Shandera, because unlike Dugtrio it has a move to boost stats (Claw Sharpen doesn't count) and two immunities. In reality it is next to impossible to start a CM Shandera sweep out of the blue as mediocre "bulk" and common weaknesses along with being easily revenge killed by Ttar + Doryuuzu.
Now, I tried some gimmick sets and found a surprisingly reliable way to start a Shandera sweep:
Jolly Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
252HP / 4Atk / 252Spe
or 4HP / 252Atk / 252Spe
<Trick>
<Thunder Wave> / <Body Slam>
<U-Turn>
<Iron Head> / <Wish>
+
Timid Shandera @ Balloon
<Substitute>
<Calm Mind>
<Flamethrower> / <HP Fighting>
<Shadow Ball>
EVs: With FT - always 252Spe
with HPFighting - as example 236Spe lets you outspeed Heatran
You should invest enough into SpA to easily 2HKO Blissey / Chansey at +6.
I'm to lazy to make calcs how much bulk and special attack is needed.
Obviously this is a gimmick duo, but to my surprise it works. Anyway, Jirachi and Balloon Shandera have surprisingly decent type coverage (still both are weak to bulky waters). The plan is to trick a Pokémon on your opponent's team into a move Shandera can easily set up and die afterwards or U-Turn. Jirachi usually attracts EQ, fire attacks, bulky waters (meh), Skarmory and Nattorei. All of them but the bulky waters can easily be made into set up fodder by tricking them into the right move.
I probably don't have to explain what to do with Shandera. Without an evasion clause you can also use Minimize (+2 evasion). As said before this is a high risk, high reward duo and won't work on a high frequenzy. Therefore this is just a gimmick and it's still beaten by Ttar + Doryuuzu.
Just some flavor - Shandera against the weather starters:
Shandera (Timid, 252SpA EVs, Scarf, 30SpA IVs) -> 388Spa
(HP Fighting) -> 4/0 Tyranitar - 65.5% - 77.2%
-> Careful 252/252 Ttar - 39.6% - 47.5%
(Overheat) -> 252/104 Hippowdon - 67.4% - 79.5%
-> Careful 252/252 Hippo - 52.1% - 61.4%
(EnergyBall) -> 0/0 Politoed - 59.2% - 69.8%
-> Calm 252/252 Politoed - 35.4% - 42.2%
(Shadow Ball) -> 0/4 Ninetales - 49.5% - 58.5%
(Overheat) -> 0/4 Ninetales - 64.1% - 75.6%
-> Abomasnow - not worth running calcs
While these results may seem to be disappointing - they are not. While Shandera may only safely switch into Ninetales and Abomasnow, Shandera can trap and kill weakend weather starters (entry hazards + a weak hit taken). Even on rain teams Shandera may be a decent choice to get rid of Tyranitar. I know that is kinda paradox, but when your team is weather relying and your weather starter is dead you have a big issue.
-> Shandera is a slower Dutrio on steroids and I love it.
Timid Shandera @ Balloon
<Substitute>
<Calm Mind>
<Flamethrower> / <HP Fighting>
<Shadow Ball>
EVs: With FT - always 252Spe
with HPFighting - as example 236Spe lets you outspeed Heatran
You should invest enough into SpA to easily 2HKO Blissey / Chansey at +6.
I'm to lazy to make calcs how much bulk and special attack is needed.
Obviously this is a gimmick duo, but to my surprise it works. Anyway, Jirachi and Balloon Shandera have surprisingly decent type coverage (still both are weak to bulky waters). The plan is to trick a Pokémon on your opponent's team into a move Shandera can easily set up and die afterwards or U-Turn. Jirachi usually attracts EQ, fire attacks, bulky waters (meh), Skarmory and Nattorei. All of them but the bulky waters can easily be made into set up fodder by tricking them into the right move.
I probably don't have to explain what to do with Shandera. Without an evasion clause you can also use Minimize (+2 evasion). As said before this is a high risk, high reward duo and won't work on a high frequenzy. Therefore this is just a gimmick and it's still beaten by Ttar + Doryuuzu.
Just some flavor - Shandera against the weather starters:
Shandera (Timid, 252SpA EVs, Scarf, 30SpA IVs) -> 388Spa
(HP Fighting) -> 4/0 Tyranitar - 65.5% - 77.2%
-> Careful 252/252 Ttar - 39.6% - 47.5%
(Overheat) -> 252/104 Hippowdon - 67.4% - 79.5%
-> Careful 252/252 Hippo - 52.1% - 61.4%
(EnergyBall) -> 0/0 Politoed - 59.2% - 69.8%
-> Calm 252/252 Politoed - 35.4% - 42.2%
(Shadow Ball) -> 0/4 Ninetales - 49.5% - 58.5%
(Overheat) -> 0/4 Ninetales - 64.1% - 75.6%
-> Abomasnow - not worth running calcs
While these results may seem to be disappointing - they are not. While Shandera may only safely switch into Ninetales and Abomasnow, Shandera can trap and kill weakend weather starters (entry hazards + a weak hit taken). Even on rain teams Shandera may be a decent choice to get rid of Tyranitar. I know that is kinda paradox, but when your team is weather relying and your weather starter is dead you have a big issue.
-> Shandera is a slower Dutrio on steroids and I love it.
Your opponent switches to Espeon on the first turn, gg.
Honestly, all these gimmick/boosting sets seem to me to be neglecting Shandera's most valuable asset: the ability to switch in on, outspeed, and OHKO common threats like Nattorei, Scizor, and Breloom, even in the Wifi tier. The most common Infernape and (in DW) Blaziken sets don't carry anything that can hurt it - switch in on a Blaziken and you can get a Flash Fire boost OR cause it to take 50% damage from missing with Hi Jump Kick. Even without Shadow Tag, that's worthy of being OU.
My combo is amazing for fun (read: not competitive) battles, but as I stated before, don't expect to ladder up using it, for the most common pokes in the metagame can take it on. My serious Shandera set still takes everyone off guards with Balloon and Flash Fire. :3
Granted, Scarf Shadow Tag may be the best set around, but I love the way mine works.
The Trick Room set also works wonders, by the way. Has some decent 'bulk' to set up and spam some brutal Fire Blasts (or HP fighting in T-Tar switches in).
Granted, Scarf Shadow Tag may be the best set around, but I love the way mine works.
The Trick Room set also works wonders, by the way. Has some decent 'bulk' to set up and spam some brutal Fire Blasts (or HP fighting in T-Tar switches in).
I find Shadow Tag Shandera to be a total annoying bitch. Essentially any Pokemon that is weak to fire or ghost can't do anything without the constant threat of being trapped and killed. Pokemon that aren't weak to Shandera's STABs also need to worry since Overheat is such a kick-ass move. With it's massive base 145 SpAtk stat Shandera can threaten walls with Choice Specs and sweepers with Choice Scarf. I have played against a huge number of Shadow Tag Shanderas since B/W was released, so I know what I'm talking about.
I am and have always been a big opponent of making bans in the OU metagame. However, this may be a time when a ban is needed. I don't suggest banning Shandera. I suggest the possibility of banning the ability Shadow Tag. This would also make Wobbuffet much less "broken." Thoughts?
I am and have always been a big opponent of making bans in the OU metagame. However, this may be a time when a ban is needed. I don't suggest banning Shandera. I suggest the possibility of banning the ability Shadow Tag. This would also make Wobbuffet much less "broken." Thoughts?
At this point (5th gen), most Pokemon have more than one ability. Sometimes, one of those abilities is the only reason it has Uber status. If Smogon is really in favor of making as few bans as possible then abilities have to be considered. So yes, agreed.
I don't know about "bulky" Shandera, but a SubSplit set could work. IF Shadow Tag is banned or not allowed in standard for an extended period of time (Dream World), he should work pretty well. Resistances to Bug (4x), Grass (2x), Ice (2x), Poison (2x), Steel (2x), and immunities to Fighting, Fire (Flash Fire), and Normal will help facilitate its way into battle. It can set up a Substitute against Blissey without worrying about Flamethrower/Ice Beam breaking it (unlike Gengar, who gets into prediction wars of Substitute or Pain Split vs. attack or Thunder Wave). Ghost + Fire is pretty good coverage, and Pain Split helps against the things you don't hit for neutral. Shadow Ball is a nice reliable STAB, so you can afford to run Fire Blast for more power. After a Flash Fire boost, Fire Blast does 45% - 52.9% to 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey, pretty nice. All of this is assuming Timid + Life Orb.
I've been trying different Shandera sets and I tried this out:
Shandera @ Petaya/Salac Berry
Flash Fire(I don't like using Shadow Tag,it's pretty broken)
Modest/Timid
HP MUST BE DIVISIBLE BY 4
252 Speed/252 Sp.Attack/4 Def or Sp.Def
-Substitute
-Nitro Charge/CM(Run CM if you use the Salac Berry)
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting
Basically,switch into something that can't do much to you and set up a sub(to protect against status moves) and CM/Nitro Charge once or twice and start killing.
I usually get 1-2 kills until I get killed myself so it might better off later in the game.
Lots of things stop this set,but it's pretty fun to use.
T-Tar(assuming no scarf) doesn't like to eat a +1 HP Fighting ;)
Things that stop this:
Sandstorm
Hail
Faster pursuiters(With a Nitro Charge,it's hard to get out sped though)
Bulky Waters
Sp.Defensive Roopushin
Shandera @ Petaya/Salac Berry
Flash Fire(I don't like using Shadow Tag,it's pretty broken)
Modest/Timid
HP MUST BE DIVISIBLE BY 4
252 Speed/252 Sp.Attack/4 Def or Sp.Def
-Substitute
-Nitro Charge/CM(Run CM if you use the Salac Berry)
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting
Basically,switch into something that can't do much to you and set up a sub(to protect against status moves) and CM/Nitro Charge once or twice and start killing.
I usually get 1-2 kills until I get killed myself so it might better off later in the game.
Lots of things stop this set,but it's pretty fun to use.
T-Tar(assuming no scarf) doesn't like to eat a +1 HP Fighting ;)
Things that stop this:
Sandstorm
Hail
Faster pursuiters(With a Nitro Charge,it's hard to get out sped though)
Bulky Waters
Sp.Defensive Roopushin
I bet this has been stated before in the 28 pages of this thread at least once, but Shandera is only good with Shadow Tag. 145 Special attack? Nice, but Rampardos has 165 and it was NU last gen. Flash Fire Shandera is terrible. That's why Shandera ain't very popular in the wifi ladder. Shadow tag is what truly makes it good. Send it in on Nattorei, or Breloom, and that's one free kill for you. Generally when I fight Shandera, it only gets in one kill, which isn't too good for a sweeper. However, I won't deny the fact that it always kills one pokemon, usually a sweeper or something. It just can't do much off of it's 80 speed.
What's even worse is people making gimmick strategies with stat lowering and truant and calm mind and nitro charge. I fought this one guy who gave me Truant through Aianto, sent out Shandera, protected every other turn and calm minded to +6, then Nitro charging for 12 more turns. They kill my Medicham, and what's next? 1HKO by Aqua Jet from Azumarill. Then I pwn the rest of their team. Another example- the memento thing from Shandera's pre evos. Another pwnage, this time from Kurimugan Sucker Punch.
EDIT: There were Stealth Rocks up. Usually, Aqua jet does 75% or so to Shandera.
What's even worse is people making gimmick strategies with stat lowering and truant and calm mind and nitro charge. I fought this one guy who gave me Truant through Aianto, sent out Shandera, protected every other turn and calm minded to +6, then Nitro charging for 12 more turns. They kill my Medicham, and what's next? 1HKO by Aqua Jet from Azumarill. Then I pwn the rest of their team. Another example- the memento thing from Shandera's pre evos. Another pwnage, this time from Kurimugan Sucker Punch.
EDIT: There were Stealth Rocks up. Usually, Aqua jet does 75% or so to Shandera.
Shandera isn't as bad as Rampardos, as it resists Bullet Punch and Ice shard, and is immune to Mach Punch, making it less of a target for priority
One combo that i've been using:
Swampert lead@Leftovers
Stealth Rock
Earthquake
Surf
Roar
+
Shandera@Leftovers
Calm Mind
Substitute
Flamethrower
Shadow Ball
One of the biggest switch ins to this is Nattorei, which happens to appear on every third team that I play. Once he shows up, switch to Shandera, sub up, wait for them to try to set spikes up, and calm mind, and then before he lays down his third layer, hit him with a flame thrower. You're going to destroy whatever comes in next, even if you don't kill it, because your're up behind a substitute. Breaks the game wide open for my late sweeper Salamence. For the Stealth Rock and Spikes that are set up, you will want a Rapid Spinner to spin away the spikes later on.
Swampert lead@Leftovers
Stealth Rock
Earthquake
Surf
Roar
+
Shandera@Leftovers
Calm Mind
Substitute
Flamethrower
Shadow Ball
One of the biggest switch ins to this is Nattorei, which happens to appear on every third team that I play. Once he shows up, switch to Shandera, sub up, wait for them to try to set spikes up, and calm mind, and then before he lays down his third layer, hit him with a flame thrower. You're going to destroy whatever comes in next, even if you don't kill it, because your're up behind a substitute. Breaks the game wide open for my late sweeper Salamence. For the Stealth Rock and Spikes that are set up, you will want a Rapid Spinner to spin away the spikes later on.
Most Nattorei run Shed Shell, so this isn't going to work as well as you think. Honestly, his best sets are IMO: Choice, SubSplit, and CM. Choice Scarf or Specs, Substitute + Pain Split with Life Orb/Leftovers/Balloon, and CM with Leftovers/Balloon.
Regardless, most of the times, I'm able to get a sub up, and hit something before switching out (unless it's a Tyranitar running pursuit). Otherwise, most of the people I'm playing are carrying Nattorei with leftovers, or choose not to switch out, and instead finish spiking.
Actually, according to the usage statistics, only 20.49% of all non-lead Nattorei run Shed Shell (but on the other hand, most lead variants do run Shed Shell).
Shadow Tag Shandera is hard - if not impossible - to play around, which is a bit annoying when you'd like to use a Shandera-weak pokémon on your team. I've tried out Shed Shell Breloom paired with a Heatran to see if it could make using Breloom easier, and it does work sometimes, but it feels like a bit of a waste when I'm not facing a team with Shandera. Shadow Tag makes it a really scary revenge killer.
Shandera is a little similar to Breloom from what I've experienced. Whereas Breloom is guaranteed to cause some havoc if it comes in on something slower, Shandera functions similarly, except it outright kills the target, rather than just shutting it down for a few turns. - they can both be revenge killed by something faster if they don't have a sub, though.