Considering the tough claws ability and drought only raise the power of moves, the calculations are wrong. Multiplying the base stat won't give you a correct estimate.
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Pokémon Charizard
- Thread starter X5Dragon
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I'm a newb, so don't jump on me please...
I keep seeing that ZardX needed Draco Meteor to go mixed, but what's wrong with Overheat? The only Physical wall I see still being a problem is Slowbro, which can be mitigated by TP I guess. So... would a set with Overheat/DDance/Thunderpunch/Outrage make any sense?
Also, another question I have is: wouldn't it be worthy running some hp EVs on ZardX? I mean, I often saw some Salamences running only enough Spe EVs to outspeed certain threats and then investing a bit on bulk... Or are 252 EVs vital to outspeed something pre or after DD?
EDIT: While I am a newb, I can read... Or maybe I can't... I just saw the Special Claws set, that uses the combination I said and actually uses fewer Spe EVs... The thing is that I thought I was posting on the OU Analysis thread... Sorry folks.
I keep seeing that ZardX needed Draco Meteor to go mixed, but what's wrong with Overheat? The only Physical wall I see still being a problem is Slowbro, which can be mitigated by TP I guess. So... would a set with Overheat/DDance/Thunderpunch/Outrage make any sense?
Also, another question I have is: wouldn't it be worthy running some hp EVs on ZardX? I mean, I often saw some Salamences running only enough Spe EVs to outspeed certain threats and then investing a bit on bulk... Or are 252 EVs vital to outspeed something pre or after DD?
EDIT: While I am a newb, I can read... Or maybe I can't... I just saw the Special Claws set, that uses the combination I said and actually uses fewer Spe EVs... The thing is that I thought I was posting on the OU Analysis thread... Sorry folks.
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As usual, I avoided conventional thinking and went in my own direction. From my experiments, I found this:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
Sorry Dragon Dance lovers, but this is amazing. There isn't one Pokemon that's happy at the prospect of switching in to this, yet Charizard itself can switch in relatively easily. I mean, this moveset makes Grass/Ghost Pokemon cry, and beats all Rotom appliances after Mega evolving (it can stall out Hydro Pump, or Roost until it misses). Will-O-Wisp beats Gyarados 1v1, cripples incoming Pokemon (sup Azumarill? hi Tyranitar!), and trolls King's Shield. Dragon Claw is your main attack, while Flare Blitz should be used sparingly due to recoil (however, it's a constant threat to your opponent). Tip; use Will-O-Wisp against Skarmory, or Sturdy/Roost will compromise Charizard. Similarly, it's a good idea to Will-O-Wisp against Ferrothorn (especially if it happens to hold Rocky Helmet). The speed is to outrun Lucario before it can Mega evolve. More HP (and/or Speed) with less Attack is also viable.
This is a 359 Attack, 308 Speed, dual STAB physical Pokemon with excellent two move coverage; that's immune to burn, bulkier than you think (with an answer to all of its counters), and packing pseudo-Life Orb without recoil. Fear it.
Edit: obviously Heatran will stop this when it becomes available, but currently I've actually had most trouble dealing with Mega Venusaur (lol). When used well, Charizard is very often MVP.
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
Sorry Dragon Dance lovers, but this is amazing. There isn't one Pokemon that's happy at the prospect of switching in to this, yet Charizard itself can switch in relatively easily. I mean, this moveset makes Grass/Ghost Pokemon cry, and beats all Rotom appliances after Mega evolving (it can stall out Hydro Pump, or Roost until it misses). Will-O-Wisp beats Gyarados 1v1, cripples incoming Pokemon (sup Azumarill? hi Tyranitar!), and trolls King's Shield. Dragon Claw is your main attack, while Flare Blitz should be used sparingly due to recoil (however, it's a constant threat to your opponent). Tip; use Will-O-Wisp against Skarmory, or Sturdy/Roost will compromise Charizard. Similarly, it's a good idea to Will-O-Wisp against Ferrothorn (especially if it happens to hold Rocky Helmet). The speed is to outrun Lucario before it can Mega evolve. More HP (and/or Speed) with less Attack is also viable.
This is a 359 Attack, 308 Speed, dual STAB physical Pokemon with excellent two move coverage; that's immune to burn, bulkier than you think (with an answer to all of its counters), and packing pseudo-Life Orb without recoil. Fear it.
Edit: obviously Heatran will stop this when it becomes available, but currently I've actually had most trouble dealing with Mega Venusaur (lol). When used well, Charizard is very often MVP.
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Have been stalking the thread for a few weeks - this post prompted me to register. Love the idea of this set; I tested it out and it solves one of zards biggest problems, longevity. He finally stays in long enough, and once you use him to lure some counters in and kill them off it's free game.
Cheers mate - interested to see more creative sets like this then the standard fair that is posted, as the mega evo creates an interesting scenario for Zard. He can switch into an equake (with no rocks preferably, but if it's a choicer you can risk it) roost off the damage and wisp any checks. The added bulk makes him quite tanky and durable, and his power is monstrous with solid coverage.
Any ideas for creative Y zard combos? Want to try him as both a standalone sweeper and in sun as well, open for any ideas.
Team options for both is another area to discuss - so far I've been running X with Gengar (beast), chomp, ferrothorn, starm, ttar and they do pretty well, though there's always room for improvement. Y hasn't been doing so well though, doesn't have as much impact as I sense he could have.
Check my posts on page 12 and 13 mentioning (with damage calculations) Charizard Y using Swords Dance/Dragon Dance. And yes, it hits really hard under sun with Flare Blitz, although I would recommend Sticky Web/Paralysis Support. It's 100% viable and something people really don't expect.
Just a tip that people might know already - When using Charizard X, if you expect the opponent to use earthquake, you don't have to Mega evolve that same turn. If you're a Dragon Dancer Zard X, then just use Dragon Dance on the first turn as Charizard, and earthquake won't affect you. It's an easy trick to avoid earthquake if people are expecting X. It's worked for me a few times when they tried to guess the MEvo as X.
It can also work against Dragon/Fairy moves in the same way, to be honest. Regular Zard is actually resistant to Fairy and neutral to Dragon.
Either way, it generally might be a good idea to use Dragon Dance on the first turn without Mega Evolving. It all depends on the situation, but something to think about.
It can also work against Dragon/Fairy moves in the same way, to be honest. Regular Zard is actually resistant to Fairy and neutral to Dragon.
Either way, it generally might be a good idea to use Dragon Dance on the first turn without Mega Evolving. It all depends on the situation, but something to think about.
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I've fought several Charizard, and I've never felt safe enough in assuming it'd be an X to even try using Earthquake that turn. But I guess it may get easier to tell as more clear team structures evolve, and it does help that Charizard doesn't need to prepare a Speed increase for future turns since that stays constant with its Megas.
Does Charizard X suffer from 4 Moveslot Syndrome? The way I look at it, he has so many good options.
The most common sets seem like they'll run Dragon Dance and Flare Blitz. After that, you have some decisions to make.
I take it most sets will run Dragon Claw (since Outrage will lock you in). But then the final move gets tricky, right?
If you go with Thunderpunch, you can take down Azumarill.
If you go with Earthquake, you can take down Heatran and stuff.
Honestly, the Will-O-Wisp set looks kinda good to me, but it has even less coverage. Sure, it can cripple Azumarill and other switch-ins, but then what exactly can you do afterwards to them?
The most common sets seem like they'll run Dragon Dance and Flare Blitz. After that, you have some decisions to make.
I take it most sets will run Dragon Claw (since Outrage will lock you in). But then the final move gets tricky, right?
If you go with Thunderpunch, you can take down Azumarill.
If you go with Earthquake, you can take down Heatran and stuff.
Honestly, the Will-O-Wisp set looks kinda good to me, but it has even less coverage. Sure, it can cripple Azumarill and other switch-ins, but then what exactly can you do afterwards to them?
Does Azumarill ohko Charizard in any way, including with Aqua Jet after a waterfall? What does Earthquake specifically beat other than Heatran? I'd tend to prefer t-punch because Heatran lacks priority and set-up besides substitute and is less of a sweeper threat, especially since you can easily use the obvious earth power for free switch.
I wouldn't use will o'wisp unless I was using Zard as a lure to cripple counters for a second sweeper like Mence.
I wouldn't use will o'wisp unless I was using Zard as a lure to cripple counters for a second sweeper like Mence.
I'm gonna stick with plain DD. His great coverage, usable attack, reliable move pool, and helpful ability make SD overkill in most situations.
I actually took your advice and put brick break on my Yzard to compensate for the pink blobs. I didn't put Swords or Dragon dance however, and instead will pass a swords dance and speed boost from scolipede
Still though, I would like to try running Xzard, and I have to ask...
Anybody out there found some good teammates for X zard?
And which is worth it, ThunderPunch or Earthquake for coverage?
Heatran, Azumarill, and Carbink are the only pokemon that resist Dragon and Fire. Of those, I'd Heatran is the greatest threat because of easier switch ins. Since EQ and thunder punch have the same effective bp, earthquake is probably the better option due to no contact, can still KO an azumarill (especially if it used belly drum), and hits more types for SE damage.
Some people won't be satisfied until a moveset beats everything and anything that's meant to check/counter it.
Honestly, I didn't think that I'd need to explain the following...
A Pokemon battle isn't 1 v 6. Charizard doesn't have to do everything. Burning Azumarill neutralises a major threat to your team, which is a significant advantage. Charizard switches out and should have many opportunities to switch in later. However, if it's raw numbers that you're after, Flare Blitz does 159-187 (39.35 - 46.28%) to 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill, which is a guaranteed 2HKO after 2 turns of burn. This is hardly the "nothing" that's implied by your post.
Let's contrive a reasonable scenario:
1. Azumarill switches in. Charizard used Will-O-Wisp. Azumarill is hurt by burn (87.5% HP)*
2. Charizard switches out. Azumarill attacks. Azumarill is hurt by burn (75% HP)*
*Note that if Azumarill has Leftovers, we're not afraid at all once it's burned.
Azumarill can no longer switch into Charizard with certainty because Flare Blitz is now a 2HKO. If Azumarill switches correctly in to Dragon Claw, it's inclined to use Rough Play (so you can switch out comfortably), because it can't afford to mispredict with Waterfall (Game Theory dictates that it should still use Waterfall, but few battlers think at that level).
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So much this. Im not suprised though considering most smogon members try to turn everything into a beat-all sweeper. I like the innovation of the set .
Agreed - though I do admit I suffer from the same issue, trying to make the be all end all sweeper out of one mon.
What do you use for team support though? I've swapped some things around, but still don't find like its being as effective as it could be (got rid of Starmie and added in Skarm as a defogger - its a great meat shield with defog, whirlwind, stealth rock and roost + rocky helm, though it has stuffed me up a few times e.g. when everyone else is dead and its the only thing left, but that's my fault anyway). Ttar, Gengar, Chomp I find to be quite useful and work around each other quite well, and I've also chucked in Latios as an afterthought spec sweepr but need better ideas for team mates for Zard. My goal is to build a solid bulky offense team with a dragon slant, but struggling to do so effectively at the moment.
Personally, I don't bother with such support, as it's not my battling style. Normal Charizard is a liability, so I attempt to Mega evolve as soon as possible. If I can't Mega evolve before Stealth Rocks, I Roost while Mega evolving later. SR just means that I take fewer risks with predictions.
I lead with Charizard if I suspect a favourable match up (note that Charizard v Rotom is favourable). All steel leads hate life against Charizard, and they offer a free opportunity to use Will-O-Wisp as they switch out, and it's not a bad thing if they don't. Just avoid Klefki, because priority Thunder Wave will ruin your day. Having U-Turn and Volt Switch users are other ploys to achieve a favourable match up. Screen support makes Charizard truly terrifying.
Essentially, accurate predictions are the best support for any Pokemon, and moves that make predictions easier will make it easier to use Charizard.
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Okay, cool - I'll explore dual screens (Espy probably), might see if Scizor + Heatran could work as well.
Just saying, Charizard-X works great on Deo-S screen teams, effortlessly able to set up multiple Dragon Dances while Deo-S's Taunt allows you to keep rocks off the field long enough for Zard to mega-evolve. Also, having Charizard as its normal form is cool because it means that you can set a Dragon Dance up on Fighting and Ground moves that normal Charizard-X would hate.
I suppose its worth a shot - though I do like Espeon's bouncing skills. Shuts down those pesky Keys straight away. Somebody also mentioned a "Mence-Quaza" like combo with Salamence and Zard; been trying it out with both Zard Y and X and its not bad. Needs some bulk added to it though - current team is Zard (using both X and Y with a more bulky spread listed by McGrrr and swapping between the X set and Solarbeam instead of DC for Y), Mence (dd moxie), Chomp (scarf - I use him as a wallbreaker and to stop voltswitches/thunderwaves), Mandibuzz (very solid, trolls other sweepers with foul play, also carries taunt, roost and defog - great anti-stall/setup mon), DS Espeon and....Scizor with LO. Success is okay, and once it sweeps it smashes everything in its path. But if Zard and Mence go down that doesn't bode well for the team, so might need to reconsider the other team mates and create some more synergy here.
That is a good option, but I wouldn't advise it. It's outclassed by Dual Dance Mold Breaker Haxorus (hits Rotom-W, Excadril, etc). Sure, Charizard X is faster than Haxorus (by 3 speed base points), but is susceptible to the very common Earthquake, Stealth Rock and other Dragons.
and Haxorus is susceptible to the increasingly common Fairy, Ice and other Dragons. Mold Breaker is nice but that speed hurts him. He does have a stronger earthquake but he only gets one STAB.
Charizard is also not susceptible to Earthquake. You don't have to MEvo it right away depending on the situation.
Not an outclass imo, just different.
I'd agree. The ability to switch and set up on Earthquake is very helpful. Also, Chary's stab coverage is so great, he doesn't really HAVE to run anything else (though I'd rather have a SE earthquake to a STAB dragon claw anyday, and there's always Azumarill and Heatran to look out for). I'd say double dance charizard is almost certainly a viable threat and will be able to compete with the big boys just fine
why you choose Dragon Claw, not Outrage ? Can you explain ?
Not being locked into Outrage leaves you free to Will-O-Wisp and Roost.
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