Pokémon Charizard

[Everstoned]

How do you get a 2HKO with your sub broken?

LOL well that is the the gimmick portion of the set. At that point, its probably best have something else clean up the mess that Zard leaves, as his main purpose is putting heavy dents in a team. However, it should be noted that unless heatran has rock slide, it is going to have problems breaking your sub. If you refrain from mega evolving immediately, an uninvested lava plume won't break your substitute. And blissey will need seismic toss to break your sub, so if it is instead using flamethrower or ice beam, it's screwed. In addition, with stealth rocks up or if it has taken any damage prior, blissey has a good chance of being killed the next turn with Fire Blast. It might even be worth a SpA boosting nature just to ensure this, since this set doesnt need speed as much as the other sets. Mega tyranitar can still be an issue however, but if it is the dragon dancing version you will one shot it with rocks up. And like I said earlier, chansey is still a pain.

 

[.TM87]

This set is a little gimmicky, but I've been running a Sub-Punching Zard Y set recently and it actually does well when it is played right. The key is using the switches that Zard naturally brings to set up a sub as they switch into their Zard Y counter (heatran/tyranitar/blissey hopefully), and then hit the opponent with a powerful SE hit. It functions like the all out set (Fire Blast/Solar Beam/Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse) except it doesn't hit dragons in exchange for hitting your standard Zard Y checks much harder. Its also 100% accurate behind a sub, unlike Focus Blast. And unlike the mixed sets, you don't need to sacrifice special attacking power because investing in attack won't really change any 2hkos or 1hkos. Well, except for chansey, but the point of this set is to get a ton of free damage on it and kill it with something else. The set I've been running is:

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty/Naive Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam

Hasty or naive is based on whether you want to live scalds or bullet punches but it doesn't really matter. This isn't gonna sweep as it has very little longevity, but it is a fantastic wallbreaker and will do a number to the opponent before it goes down.

Just some calcs:

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 412-488 (101.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 316-372 (78.2 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 214-252 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 406-478 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 296-350 (42 - 49.7%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

A complete waste of a move slot.
Better off:
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty/Naive Nature
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

 

[Everstoned]

A complete waste of a move slot.
Better off:
Charizard @ Charizardite Y
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty/Naive Nature
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Not saying that my set was particularly better than another set, it was an alternative mainly for surprise(i.e.: gimmick like i said). However, this set here cannot deal with tyranitar or air balloon heatran, so i wouldn't say I'm better off with it.

252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

1.2% chance to 2hko tyranitar? I'll pass. Even with stealth rocks up it's not a guarantee, and you would have to predict tyranitar specifically to come in and not, say, air balloon heatran. Whereas my set only requires a safely set up sub, which you will get if they switch into the tyranitar you are planning to earthquake with your set. Also, my set has the added benefit of not losing the sheer power that standard Zard Y has, as your Flare Blitz/Solar Beam will be doing much less than my Fire Blast/Solar Beam on average. However, This set does have much more longevity than the set I mentioned, but so does pretty much every other Zard Y set ever lol.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

So you're running substitute on a 4x SR weak mon without any kind of recovery (you're not running roost), yeah gimmicky doesn't even begin to cover it especially since outside of Tyranitar SubPunch isn't getting you any relevant OHKOs..

 

[Everstoned]

So you're running substitute on a 4x SR weak mon without any kind of recovery (you're not running roost), yeah gimmicky doesn't even begin to cover it especially since outside of Tyranitar SubPunch isn't getting you any relevant OHKOs..

By that logic, Flare Blitz without roost must be equally gimmicky. If you notice on the first page of this thread, Roost isn't even mentioned on the mixed/physical set. Plus, this is primarily a special set, so you won't be subbing or punching frequently regardless. And i think having a 65% chance of taking down Blissey with The followup Fire Blast with rash/mild after stealth rocks and lefties is pretty relevant. Or you can just run a physical set to do the same thing with flare blitz and be left with 20% health after recoil. That works too.

Eh, I think I've said all that I need to, we all agree it is in fact a gimmick. But it does have its uses.

 

[kabbes]

X is only 2x weak to SR after mega-evolving though, and post-DD it shouldn't need to switch out at all.

I run bulky DD with roost and no earthquake though, on the grounds that earthquake is only needed for two pokemon (otherwise flare blitz is stronger) and I can take care of them using other means.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

By that logic, Flare Blitz without roost must be equally gimmicky. If you notice on the first page of this thread, Roost isn't even mentioned on the mixed/physical set. Plus, this is primarily a special set, so you won't be subbing or punching frequently regardless. And i think having a 65% chance of taking down Blissey with The followup Fire Blast with rash/mild after stealth rocks and lefties is pretty relevant. Or you can just run a physical set to do the same thing with flare blitz and be left with 20% health after recoil. That works too.

Eh, I think I've said all that I need to, we all agree it is in fact a gimmick. But it does have its uses.

Flare Blitz doesn't require 2 moveslots to function, can actually be used vs things that can do more than 1/4 the of your health back to you, and actually let's you move first, its also boosted by the sun.

If you notice on the first page, SubFocus Punch isn't even mentioned, at all.

Beating Blissey is also very irrelevant as its Chansey that actually matters which can't be beaten by Focus Punch but can be beaten by Flare Blitz (with investment) which btw is totally worth losing most of your health for, especially considering most teams that have Chansey won't have anything that outspeeds ZardY letting it roost up for free.

The special ZardY set is the best but if beating Chansey is important to you then Flare Blitz gives you by far the best chance of doing so with ZardY.

 

[.TM87]

Not saying that my set was particularly better than another set, it was an alternative mainly for surprise(i.e.: gimmick like i said). However, this set here cannot deal with tyranitar or air balloon heatran, so i wouldn't say I'm better off with it.

252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

1.2% chance to 2hko tyranitar? I'll pass. Even with stealth rocks up it's not a guarantee, and you would have to predict tyranitar specifically to come in and not, say, air balloon heatran. Whereas my set only requires a safely set up sub, which you will get if they switch into the tyranitar you are planning to earthquake with your set. Also, my set has the added benefit of not losing the sheer power that standard Zard Y has, as your Flare Blitz/Solar Beam will be doing much less than my Fire Blast/Solar Beam on average. However, This set does have much more longevity than the set I mentioned, but so does pretty much every other Zard Y set ever lol.

Why would you stay in on Tyranitar anyway?

 

[RizeoftheN1]

I've seeing so many zard x in x y wifi now it everywhere like one dd it's over

 

[Everstoned]

Flare Blitz doesn't require 2 moveslots to function, can actually be used vs things that can do more than 1/4 the of your health back to you, and actually let's you move first, its also boosted by the sun.

If you notice on the first page, SubFocus Punch isn't even mentioned, at all.

Beating Blissey is also very irrelevant as its Chansey that actually matters which can't be beaten by Focus Punch but can be beaten by Flare Blitz (with investment) which btw is totally worth losing most of your health for, especially considering most teams that have Chansey won't have anything that outspeeds ZardY letting it roost up for free.

The special ZardY set is the best but if beating Chansey is important to you then Flare Blitz gives you by far the best chance of doing so with ZardY.

I wasn't saying that meaning Flare Blitz was unusable, that would be silly. I just meant it wasn't mentioned with roost, yet is still relevant even though its basically a suicide set without it. Yes im aware sub punch isn't mentioned, that's why i mentioned it lol. You are right about Chansey, I have nothing to say there. Although max attack to beat chansey beats the purpose of breaking a special wall with a special sweeper, my set doesn't fair any better so I'll stay quiet. It was mainly meant to deal with tyranitars, basically as a replacement to focus miss blast on the special set since that's really the only time you would be using it besides heatran.

Why would you stay in on Tyranitar anyway?

So you don't get set up on or pursuited for well over half your health. That was the only point of my set, it's a special zard set that kills every version of tyranitar and can 2 piece the bulkiest standard Mega tyranitars (after rocks and a focus punch, you can finish it off max hp mega tyranitar in the sand with a fire blast or even a measly air slash if its not already dead). The team i tested it with is heavily weather based, so I wanted a way to always win that weather war. That's all its for. Even on my own teams I would rather use special zard unless I really needed the sunlight.

OK im done, we can move on lol

I've seeing so many zard x in x y wifi now it everywhere like one dd it's over

If you're worried about a zard X sweep, you can run a scarf chomp for revenge killing. And ditto is always hilarious to use

 

[RizeoftheN1]

Thanks bro that's true I have seen ditto take it out lol but the is a beast

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I've been using Will-O ZardX, and personally, I love the damn thing. ZardY is good and hard hitting and all, but comparatively I think X is better in my opinion.
I prefer bulky Pokes anyways. And ZardX does his job, well.

 

[Amaan]

I think Flare Blitz is better on Bulky Dragon Dance Charizard X than Fire Punch or Earthquake, why is it not even slashed on the analysis

 

[kabbes]

I think Flare Blitz is better on Bulky Dragon Dance Charizard X than Fire Punch or Earthquake, why is it not even slashed on the analysis

Totally agree. Dragon claw for most occasions, fire blitz for when you need to nuke to opposition. It's certain what I run and I have never felt that I lack earthquake. Even a resisted dragon claw hits nearly as hard as a neutral earthquake after tough claws, let alone the power of flare blitz.

 

[Martin]

I just thought I'd post this calc:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt in Sun: 207-243 (77.2 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That is rediculous to say the least. Imagine Blast Burn against a level 1 Dry Skin Paras with 0 IVs and EVs in HP and SpD and a negative SpD nature...
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Blast Burn vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dry Skin Paras in Sun: 100228-117916 (911163.6 - 1071963.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[dkkc19]

I think Flare Blitz is better on Bulky Dragon Dance Charizard X than Fire Punch or Earthquake, why is it not even slashed on the analysis

If you are using Flare blitz you must use Roost. Earthquake is a must to hit Heatran.

 

[dinotrek27]

I've been using Will-O ZardX, and personally, I love the damn thing. ZardY is good and hard hitting and all, but comparatively I think X is better in my opinion.
I prefer bulky Pokes anyways. And ZardX does his job, well.

Remember that Char-Y is bulky too just on the special side

 

[Amaan]

If you are using Flare blitz you must use Roost. Earthquake is a must to hit Heatran.

Earthquake is not a "must" It hits a grand total of two pokemon and isn't boosted by tough claws.

Flare blitz is definitely the better choice due to its wall breaking capabilities and power. If you use EQ, you miss out on some extremely crucial KOs.

Dragon Claw is a better alternative too, hitting most pokemon for neutral coverage and is more powerful than EQ.

Roost should always be used on Zard X regardless of moves.

 

[dkkc19]

Earthquake is not a "must" It hits a grand total of two pokemon and isn't boosted by tough claws.

Flare blitz is definitely the better choice due to its wall breaking capabilities and power. If you use EQ, you miss out on some extremely crucial KOs.

Dragon Claw is a better alternative too, hitting most pokemon for neutral coverage and is more powerful than EQ.

Roost should always be used on Zard X regardless of moves.

Earthquake is the only way to Aegislash without risking a drop in attack. P.S its a safe option to hit Ferrothorn without getting recoil damage.

Roost is great on Zard, but if you have a decent way to control hazards you can switch it for a coverage move.

 

[Amaan]

Earthquake is the only way to Aegislash without risking a drop in attack. P.S its a safe option to hit Ferrothorn without getting recoil damage.

Roost is great on Zard, but if you have a decent way to control hazards you can switch it for a coverage move.

Earthquake is awful to hit ferro with, at +2 you don't even 2HKO, the amount of recoil you take from Flare Blitzing it is much better than getting leech seeded or thunder waved.

Here is why Flare Blitz is so much better than Fire Punch or Earthquake
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...his-xy-ou-edition.3499671/page-9#post-5431699

Even if you run bulky DD, which is probably the best set now, Flare Blitz is too good to give up.

 

[dkkc19]

Earthquake is awful to hit ferro with, at +2 you don't even 2HKO, the amount of recoil you take from Flare Blitzing it is much better than getting leech seeded or thunder waved.

Here is why Flare Blitz is so much better than Fire Punch or Earthquake
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...his-xy-ou-edition.3499671/page-9#post-5431699

Even if you run bulky DD, which is probably the best set now, Flare Blitz is too good to give up.

I guess you're right Flarze Blitz is much better than Flare Punch even with recoil. I only used Charizard X in one experimental team with a physical Greninja and many other niche/bizarre things and it had Thunder punch, Dragon Claw,Wow and Roost and it was a bulky Charizard X.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Remember that Char-Y is bulky too just on the special side

Yes, but unfortunately, with the gen change, special attacks aren't as prevalent as physical attacks. And its typing when coupled with its bulk is what makes ZardX better in my eyes. ZardY finds it difficult to be bulky when it loses half of its HP by simply switching in.

 

[kabbes]

+1 tough claws flare blitz, effectively having the equivalent of an unboosted neutral base power of 351, is enough to OHKO a hell of a lot of mons that would otherwise wreck you. It's a lifesaver, recoil or no recoil. When I lose, half the time it's because I stupidly hit dragon claw to avoid the recoil and fail to OHKO, and get paralysed or put to sleep or otherwise killed as a consequence.

 

[Red Cat]

If you see that your opponent has Charizard in Team Preview, what clues can you look for in your opponent's team to try to predict whether your opponent is using X or Y?

 

[Der Richter]

Well, clearly a sun team is quite easy to predict. Otherwise, I try to figure out if the team would benefit from the dragon/fire coverage.