I thought the Return vs Frustration argument ended way before back in BW. Let me dig it out from the older thread.
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Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]
- Thread starter Magnemite
- Start date
- Status
Except it doesn't. Mindgames are those that happen in a game itself. In the case of Return vs Frustration, everything is already predetermined before the match started, like speed creeping. At the end, it just leads to an endless vicious cycle which ain't gonna stop, and Pinsir and Ditto are just going to adapt to each other repeatedly, and nothing is going to change.
Don't Use This:
Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
Why It's Bad:
Donphan is the middle child of Landorus-T and Excadrill, with Excadrill being the better offensive Pokemon + Rapid Spin, with Landorus-T being a better Stealth Rock and Defensive Ground-type.
>b-b-but Donphan has a higher Defense than both!
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's nowhere near as bulky as Landorus-T thanks to Intimidate. Play Rough, also, is illegal with Stealth Rock, and it's pathetically weak:
4 Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 158-188 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
And, fun fact: Play Rough hits Pokemon that are 4x weak to Ice Shard (only Dragon/Ground or /Flying) harder than Ice Shard itself. Donphan is utter shit in OU, stop using it (BAN ME PLEASE). Now in UU however, it's pretty ok. Donphan is just not what it once was in OU, it's just bad, to put it flat out.
Instead, Use This:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Stone Edge
Why It's Better:
Landorus-Therian has better stats everywhere bar HP (by 1 point, wow!). Landorus-T fits the role of Defensive Ground-type far better than Donphan, as it can actually be a threat to other things, and has access to U-Turn to become a pivot. Stealth Rock is just done far better by Lando-T and Lando-T's Earthquake is much more powerful than Donphan could ever hope to be. Knock Off is the icing on the cake, and while Donphan has access to it as well, it just doesn't have the room for it. Another key factor of Landorus-T is that is very unpredictable, it could be running Defensive, Scarf, Band, Double Dance, or even Calm Mind or Gravity! It's a very versatile Pokemon backed by tons of power and bulk and eclipses Donphan in just about everywhere bar the ability to Rapid Spin, which is nowhere near as hard to come by thanks to Defog's new mechanics and other Rapid Spinners. Another great selling point of Landorus-T is that it's a lot faster than Donphan and doesn't get outspeed by everything. Overall, Landorus-T is the far superior Defensive Ground-type.
Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
Why It's Bad:
Donphan is the middle child of Landorus-T and Excadrill, with Excadrill being the better offensive Pokemon + Rapid Spin, with Landorus-T being a better Stealth Rock and Defensive Ground-type.
>b-b-but Donphan has a higher Defense than both!
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's nowhere near as bulky as Landorus-T thanks to Intimidate. Play Rough, also, is illegal with Stealth Rock, and it's pathetically weak:
4 Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 158-188 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
And, fun fact: Play Rough hits Pokemon that are 4x weak to Ice Shard (only Dragon/Ground or /Flying) harder than Ice Shard itself. Donphan is utter shit in OU, stop using it (BAN ME PLEASE). Now in UU however, it's pretty ok. Donphan is just not what it once was in OU, it's just bad, to put it flat out.
Instead, Use This:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Stone Edge
Why It's Better:
Landorus-Therian has better stats everywhere bar HP (by 1 point, wow!). Landorus-T fits the role of Defensive Ground-type far better than Donphan, as it can actually be a threat to other things, and has access to U-Turn to become a pivot. Stealth Rock is just done far better by Lando-T and Lando-T's Earthquake is much more powerful than Donphan could ever hope to be. Knock Off is the icing on the cake, and while Donphan has access to it as well, it just doesn't have the room for it. Another key factor of Landorus-T is that is very unpredictable, it could be running Defensive, Scarf, Band, Double Dance, or even Calm Mind or Gravity! It's a very versatile Pokemon backed by tons of power and bulk and eclipses Donphan in just about everywhere bar the ability to Rapid Spin, which is nowhere near as hard to come by thanks to Defog's new mechanics and other Rapid Spinners. Another great selling point of Landorus-T is that it's a lot faster than Donphan and doesn't get outspeed by everything. Overall, Landorus-T is the far superior Defensive Ground-type.
Don't Use This:
Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
Why It's Bad:
Donphan is the middle child of Landorus-T and Excadrill, with Excadrill being the better offensive Pokemon + Rapid Spin, with Landorus-T being a better Stealth Rock and Defensive Ground-type.
>b-b-but Donphan has a higher Defense than both!
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's nowhere near as bulky as Landorus-T thanks to Intimidate. Play Rough, also, is illegal with Stealth Rock, and it's pathetically weak:
4 Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Donphan Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 158-188 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
And, fun fact: Play Rough hits Pokemon that are 4x weak to Ice Shard (only Dragon/Ground or /Flying) harder than Ice Shard itself. Donphan is utter shit in OU, stop using it (BAN ME PLEASE). Now in UU however, it's pretty ok. Donphan is just not what it once was in OU, it's just bad, to put it flat out.
Instead, Use This:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Stone Edge
Why It's Better:
Landorus-Therian has better stats everywhere bar HP (by 1 point, wow!). Landorus-T fits the role of Defensive Ground-type far better than Donphan, as it can actually be a threat to other things, and has access to U-Turn to become a pivot. Stealth Rock is just done far better by Lando-T and Lando-T's Earthquake is much more powerful than Donphan could ever hope to be. Knock Off is the icing on the cake, and while Donphan has access to it as well, it just doesn't have the room for it. Another key factor of Landorus-T is that is very unpredictable, it could be running Defensive, Scarf, Band, Double Dance, or even Calm Mind or Gravity! It's a very versatile Pokemon backed by tons of power and bulk and eclipses Donphan in just about everywhere bar the ability to Rapid Spin, which is nowhere near as hard to come by thanks to Defog's new mechanics and other Rapid Spinners. Another great selling point of Landorus-T is that it's a lot faster than Donphan and doesn't get outspeed by everything. Overall, Landorus-T is the far superior Defensive Ground-type.
Question: If ice shard is so bad on donphan, why not drop it for knock off?
The main differences between lando-T and donphan is that lando-T has better stats and u-turn while donphan has rapid spin. There is very little else to distinguish the two. Donphan may find a niche as a bulky offensive rapid spinner, but if that's the case it really needs that wish support. Overall, I agree lando-T is better then donphan, but the two are not as different as you imply.
I never said Ice Shard was bad, it's cool to have priority, but Knock Off is certainly viable as well.
Donphan's Ice Shard has got to be the most pathetic move in metagame.
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 192-228 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 200-236 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It blows. It can't even OHKO things with a 4x weakness to it. Unless you give it Life Orb or something. But why you are giving an offensive item to something with 60 Sp. Def and 50 Speed is beyond me.
If I ever ran Donphan in OU (lol at that), I certainly wouldn't use Ice Shard. It's a disgrace to its moveslot.
If you really want a ground pokemon with stealth rock, earthquake and ice shard, there is one who has all of those, plus an usable bulk, actual damage with Ice Shard and the ability to actually outspeed things. It's called Mamoswine. And it cries in a corner every time someone chooses Donphan over it.
I've been playing UU lately, and one thing I've notice is that Hippowdon is better than Donphan most of the time. Even in UU Donphan is mediocre. By the way, here's another thing who should be used over Donphan: Hippowdon.
I say we should make a final "Don't use that, use this" for Donphan, including every good ground pokemon who outclasses it.
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 192-228 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 200-236 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It blows. It can't even OHKO things with a 4x weakness to it. Unless you give it Life Orb or something. But why you are giving an offensive item to something with 60 Sp. Def and 50 Speed is beyond me.
If I ever ran Donphan in OU (lol at that), I certainly wouldn't use Ice Shard. It's a disgrace to its moveslot.
If you really want a ground pokemon with stealth rock, earthquake and ice shard, there is one who has all of those, plus an usable bulk, actual damage with Ice Shard and the ability to actually outspeed things. It's called Mamoswine. And it cries in a corner every time someone chooses Donphan over it.
I've been playing UU lately, and one thing I've notice is that Hippowdon is better than Donphan most of the time. Even in UU Donphan is mediocre. By the way, here's another thing who should be used over Donphan: Hippowdon.
I say we should make a final "Don't use that, use this" for Donphan, including every good ground pokemon who outclasses it.
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Ninja Charizard Mamoswine is mostly a revenge killer and sometimes wall breaker, Donphan is best used as a physical tank with rapid spin, which is not something exca can do (hippo might be able to pull it off and lando-t definitely could). It needs wish support, but it actually hits decently hard, and even if you don't invest in his phys defenses, it's decently bulky.
The problem with Donphan is not that it's bad. It's just... lame. There is nothing amazing about it. It's EQ is strong, yes, but it's the only move that deals decent damage, and even then it's only decent. All its other options are pretty weak, from Knock Off to Ice Shard. The defense is good, but the special defense is horrible, so it's not hard to kill. The low speed doesn't help either. And having a plethora of weak moves means it's fairly easy to switch into.
It's not a pokemon you can say it can't be used in OU. It can. But is there any reason to use it over something else? The only thing it has going for it is "being a tank with rapid spin". But Mega Blastoise does that much better and I don't see anyone using Mega Blastoise (btw, add it to the list of stuff who outclass Donphan).
Also I've noticed that most Donphan players tend to be very cocky. I wish I could earn a dollar for each Donphan who stayed in on my Kyurem-B and ate an Ice Beam afterwards.
Mediocre is the word you are looking for. As you have stated, it is not a "bad" mon in that running it is not an insta-lose for your team, it can even pull it's weight if used correctly. Knock off actually isn't that weak off of 120 attack, especially if you invest in its attack (imo you should, otherwise it's just a lame forretress). There is just a large number of mons that can do most of what it does (though not quite all) but better.
By now, Donphan only has 2.7% of usage (63rd), when Excadrill has 9.5% (14th), Landorus-T has 7.4% (22nd), and even Blastoise has 3.1% of usage (56th). There is no point criticizing again Donphan when it's not even used any more, and that people have finally realized it was bad. Just saying.
I just noticed that manaphy is getting friggen UU usage, again. This is unacceptable. What special attacking setup sweeper do poeple use instead of manaphy? I know thundy gets a lot of use (no surprises there, pretty good mon), but is thundy really the only special setup sweeper? There aren't really a lot of NPers in OU tho besides thundy (most toges I see are either scarfed or defensive paraflinch). There are a few CMers like clefable and sometimes keldeo (manaphy > keldeo imho, but they are two rather different mons). Any suggestions?
Manaphy tends to find its greatest use against slower, bulkier teams. Most of these teams struggle to deal with a +3 Manaphy defensively unless they pack Chansey, and a resistance to common priority moves and a decent base 100 speed tier mean that these bulkier teams often have trouble getting damage on Manaphy.
With that said, Manaphy tends to fail against faster offensive teams. It can be outsped quite easily by Pokemon like Thundurus, Deoxys-S, Mega Manectric, Latios, Scarf Excadrill, Scarf Rotom-W, and so on, and overpowered thanks to its not-so-great defenses. That would explain its usage, seeing as it excels against certain teams but may fall flat on its face against others. It's not really that it's outclassed, more that it plays a more specialized role than other popular Pokemon.
What a shame, there are two archives demonstrating that we should use Chansey instead of Blissey, and Blissey is still more used than her little sister...
To answer your wondering, WebBowser, may be that's because people prefer fast and strong special "Scouts" than a set up Sweeper one which have all above average stats (while it's true that's at +3, manaphy is a really big threat, and it's difficult to take down in one hit due to its good bulk :/ ). Greninja may be an example of that "fast and sheer power", but I'm not really sure of that. However, it's annoying to see that Vaporeon has better usage stat than Manaphy :/ (kill BP please). They don't really deserve the same role, but when I want a bulky water-type, I first think of Manaphy before Vaporeon.
To answer your wondering, WebBowser, may be that's because people prefer fast and strong special "Scouts" than a set up Sweeper one which have all above average stats (while it's true that's at +3, manaphy is a really big threat, and it's difficult to take down in one hit due to its good bulk :/ ). Greninja may be an example of that "fast and sheer power", but I'm not really sure of that. However, it's annoying to see that Vaporeon has better usage stat than Manaphy :/ (kill BP please). They don't really deserve the same role, but when I want a bulky water-type, I first think of Manaphy before Vaporeon.
Lately I've been using manaphy in conjunction with iron defense scolipede (granted, mostly to use as support for the now closed BP thread that iron defense scoli is a broken piece of garbage). With a speed and defense boost, manaphy becomes exceedingly difficult to take down. It can setup very quickly too thanks to tail glow, meaning that the opponent has very little time to react (often times only a turn at most) before a nigh unrevengable manaphy begins sweeping the team.
Dont use this:
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Conkeldurr is one of the pokemon that really benefits from the introduction of Assault Vest, patching up its lowly special defense stat, making him a very powerful tank that can also heal reliably with Drain Punch. In addition to this, Conkeldurr makes a great status sponge, eating up toxic and will-o-wisp to become a truly ferocious attacker. However, the most popular EV spread, the 252hp 252atk set can be improved.
Use this:
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Huh? What happened? The HP EVs were moved into defenses? Why would I do that? The new EV spread makes it so that Conkeldurr is just as bulky as he was before, but also allows him to take less damage from hazards, leech seed, and status. Why is this important? This allows Conkeldurr to heal much more with Drain Punch, increasing its effectiveness and longevity. This also allows you to beat other 252hp Conkeldurr 1 on 1 since you heal more than they do, while dealing the same damage.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 140-165 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Conkeldurr: 122-144 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 132-156 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 111-132 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Conkeldurr is one of the pokemon that really benefits from the introduction of Assault Vest, patching up its lowly special defense stat, making him a very powerful tank that can also heal reliably with Drain Punch. In addition to this, Conkeldurr makes a great status sponge, eating up toxic and will-o-wisp to become a truly ferocious attacker. However, the most popular EV spread, the 252hp 252atk set can be improved.
Use this:
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Huh? What happened? The HP EVs were moved into defenses? Why would I do that? The new EV spread makes it so that Conkeldurr is just as bulky as he was before, but also allows him to take less damage from hazards, leech seed, and status. Why is this important? This allows Conkeldurr to heal much more with Drain Punch, increasing its effectiveness and longevity. This also allows you to beat other 252hp Conkeldurr 1 on 1 since you heal more than they do, while dealing the same damage.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 140-165 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Conkeldurr: 122-144 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 132-156 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 111-132 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
tbh those are both pretty awful spreads.Dont use this:
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Conkeldurr is one of the pokemon that really benefits from the introduction of Assault Vest, patching up its lowly special defense stat, making him a very powerful tank that can also heal reliably with Drain Punch. In addition to this, Conkeldurr makes a great status sponge, eating up toxic and will-o-wisp to become a truly ferocious attacker. However, the most popular EV spread, the 252hp 252atk set can be improved.
Use this:
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Huh? What happened? The HP EVs were moved into defenses? Why would I do that? The new EV spread makes it so that Conkeldurr is just as bulky as he was before, but also allows him to take less damage from hazards, leech seed, and status. Why is this important? This allows Conkeldurr to heal much more with Drain Punch, increasing its effectiveness and longevity. This also allows you to beat other 252hp Conkeldurr 1 on 1 since you heal more than they do, while dealing the same damage.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 140-165 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Conkeldurr: 122-144 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 132-156 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 111-132 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
No.... Just... .No.... You put HP EVs ----> SpD EVs, not splitting 128 / 128, that's usually very inefficient. The correct EV Spread is 252 Atk / 236 SpD / 20 Spe.Dont use this:
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Conkeldurr is one of the pokemon that really benefits from the introduction of Assault Vest, patching up its lowly special defense stat, making him a very powerful tank that can also heal reliably with Drain Punch. In addition to this, Conkeldurr makes a great status sponge, eating up toxic and will-o-wisp to become a truly ferocious attacker. However, the most popular EV spread, the 252hp 252atk set can be improved.
Use this:
@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 sDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Huh? What happened? The HP EVs were moved into defenses? Why would I do that? The new EV spread makes it so that Conkeldurr is just as bulky as he was before, but also allows him to take less damage from hazards, leech seed, and status. Why is this important? This allows Conkeldurr to heal much more with Drain Punch, increasing its effectiveness and longevity. This also allows you to beat other 252hp Conkeldurr 1 on 1 since you heal more than they do, while dealing the same damage.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 140-165 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Conkeldurr: 122-144 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 132-156 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 111-132 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
Just out of curiosity: what are you trying to speed creep?
Outspeeding 0 Speed Hippowdon.
Any particular reason why durr wants to outspeed hippo? Even with ice punch it's not doing that much.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 124-146 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
I guess maybe if you catch it on the swap or have guts boost it might make a difference, but otherwise you are pretty much stalled regardless.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 124-146 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
I guess maybe if you catch it on the swap or have guts boost it might make a difference, but otherwise you are pretty much stalled regardless.
While Fire Punch is viable, I still had to point this out because its not even listed as an option on the analysis
Don't use this:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 144 HP / 240 Atk / 4 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake/Fire Punch
-Roost
Why it's bad: While Fire Punch doesn't give you recoil. Which may seem especially useful on a Bulkier version of Charizard X, Fire Punch makes you miss out on some extremely crucial KOs.
On Specially Defensive Hippowdon
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 370-436 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
On Choice Scarf Landorus Therian
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 312-367 (97.5 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
On Mandibuzz
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 297-351 (70 - 82.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
On Azumarrill
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 161-189 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On Clefable
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Clefable: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Clefable: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pokemon that are considered "checks" to Charizard X, or threatening Pokemon in the metagame, no longer able to switch in without risking being KOed
Instead, use this:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 144 HP / 240 Atk / 4 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake/Flare Blitz
-Roost
Why it's better: While Fire Punch doesn't give recoil. Flare Blitz gives you power that is simply too good to give up. The rise in usage of Bulky Zard X will also result in the rise in usage of the previously mentioned Pokemon. And the ability to keep those checks into place with Flare Blitz is way better than having no recoil. If a less risky move is desired, Dragon Claw is a fantastic option and hits very hard after a Dragon Dance. Flare Blitz's recoil is also part of the reason why Roost is used on offensive Dragon Dance Zard X in the first place. Flare Blitz also lets Zard X take on the role of a bulky wallbreaker.
Conclusion: While Fire Punch doesn't inflict any recoil on yourself. The pros of Flare Blitz outweigh the pros of Fire Punch
Don't use this:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 144 HP / 240 Atk / 4 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake/Fire Punch
-Roost
Why it's bad: While Fire Punch doesn't give you recoil. Which may seem especially useful on a Bulkier version of Charizard X, Fire Punch makes you miss out on some extremely crucial KOs.
On Specially Defensive Hippowdon
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 370-436 (88 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
On Choice Scarf Landorus Therian
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 312-367 (97.5 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
On Mandibuzz
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 297-351 (70 - 82.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
On Azumarrill
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 161-189 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 256-302 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On Clefable
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Clefable: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Clefable: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Pokemon that are considered "checks" to Charizard X, or threatening Pokemon in the metagame, no longer able to switch in without risking being KOed
Instead, use this:
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 144 HP / 240 Atk / 4 SpD / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake/Flare Blitz
-Roost
Why it's better: While Fire Punch doesn't give recoil. Flare Blitz gives you power that is simply too good to give up. The rise in usage of Bulky Zard X will also result in the rise in usage of the previously mentioned Pokemon. And the ability to keep those checks into place with Flare Blitz is way better than having no recoil. If a less risky move is desired, Dragon Claw is a fantastic option and hits very hard after a Dragon Dance. Flare Blitz's recoil is also part of the reason why Roost is used on offensive Dragon Dance Zard X in the first place. Flare Blitz also lets Zard X take on the role of a bulky wallbreaker.
Conclusion: While Fire Punch doesn't inflict any recoil on yourself. The pros of Flare Blitz outweigh the pros of Fire Punch
Last edited:
Sorry, ill be changing that.
- Status