Other Don't use that, use this [XY OU Edition]

[WebBowser]

Deo-S doesnt have room for taunt on the offensive set and SR on ferro is decreasing in use, it wants to run all of Leech Seed, Gyro Ball, T-Wave, Protect, Power Whip and SR but doesn't have enough moveslots. It's not worth risking paralysis or 85% of your health gone just to block hazards on something that might not even have hazards and that wasn't the point I was making, HP Fire isn't as useful as Knock off in terms of general utility and has lost its No.1 use of beating Scarf Gene.

Gosh dangit, I am so behind the times now it's not even funny. I really need to start playing again.

Out of curiosity, what do you guys think of Azumaril vs Crawdaunt? Crawdaunt has a stronger aqua jet, better duel STAB, and DD, while Azumaril has better defensive typing, bulk, and belly drum.

 

[Tressed]

Out of curiosity, what do you guys think of Azumaril vs Crawdaunt? Crawdaunt has a stronger aqua jet, better duel STAB, and DD, while Azumaril has better defensive typing, bulk, and belly drum.

Depends whag you really need. As Band users, Craw is much more of a dedicated wallbreaker than Azumarill due to Knock Off and Adaptability, while Azumarill's bulk and typing is much better against offensive teams. As set up sweepers, Azumarill is generally better thanks to Belly Drum, but Swords Dance has the nice plus of being usable more than twice a match (Dragon Dance ain't that good because Crawdaunt is too slow to outrun anything fast at +1, best stick with Aqua Jet).

 

[dkkc19]

Depends whag you really need. As Band users, Craw is much more of a dedicated wallbreaker than Azumarill due to Knock Off and Adaptability, while Azumarill's bulk and typing is much better against offensive teams. As set up sweepers, Azumarill is generally better thanks to Belly Drum, but Swords Dance has the nice plus of being usable more than twice a match (Dragon Dance ain't that good because Crawdaunt is too slow to outrun anything fast at +1, best stick with Aqua Jet).

Crawdaunt finds it harder to set up thanks to its typing and poorer bulk. But if by any chance Craw managed to get 2 dragon dances, it is almost unstoppable.

In general, I find Azumaril better and fits more teams than Crawdaunt.

 

[Flamer]

Azumarill definately steals the cake, Craws bulk and typing mean its revenge killed easily by most priority users and lacks power when not using STABs (I know its not that much of a drop but still). Azumarill can run a ton of viable sets, AV, BD, CB (and they all have easy to type acronyms) and has the typing and bulk to take hits and dish them back thanks to Huge Power.

 

[Skybluejay]

Don,t use this.

move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Icicle Spear
move 3: Rock Blast
move 4: Hydro Pump / Razor Shell
ability: Skill Link
item: Never-Melt Ice / Lum Berry
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Naughty / Adamant
Why it's bad
Cloyster was a top tier threat in the last 2 gens with its new and completely outside of context 125 base power multi-strike icicle spears and its 1 turn of setup and then sweep mentality. However gen 6 has become far more prone to the use of priority attacks ((many of which are blunt super effective 1hit kos for the oyster due to his ice typing)) and special attacks now hit through him like a knife through butter. It still needs it's one turn for set up and that is hard to find in the priority filled generation 6

Worse still for the this guy is that the power creep Has indeed caught up to cloyster's level leaving m.r clam outclassed by the power creep of the meta game and now most sweepers have managed to surpass him pure power while staying bulky...something the ol clam haven't done yet

Use this instead.

move 1: Dragon claw
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: Iron head
move 4: Roost/zen headbut
item: Life Orb/leftovers/dragon plate/expert belt/choice band or scarf/ anything that boost attack power
evs: 252 Atk / 56 SpA / 200 def or 200 sp def
nature: Lonely / Naughty

Why it's better:
O.U is a place where pokes with stats of about 500 like to come out and play with each other......kyruem-b has a stat total of 700 and an absolutely viable ability in the form of terabolt so kyruem doesn't exactly play gently.
Anyone who knows their weight in poke'dirt knows that kyruem-b hits like truck and then some and has defences worthy of being a wall((but it's typing and move pool let it down on that)) kyruem-b is a creature of blunt attack ((170 attack@_@ and 120 sp attack))and direct defences of((125/100/90))He is a dragon for the modern times of generation 6 with its proper defence stats, insane attack stats and has had a godsend in the form of iron head ((for the pesky ferries))it can weather the priority attacks that cloyster fears so much while one hit k.oing whatever is set before it with the proper coverage move for the job. Kyruem-b is both durable enough to proudly weather the waves of punishment and is capable of returning the favour twice over.

Conclusion:
Kyreum-b shares some of the same issues as cloyster but kyreum-b nowadays is just plane old better then cloyster at what cloyster used to do in gen 4/5 due to infinitely better stat totals in both defence and attack and the ability to start its rampage on turn one while also being far more durable and it does not have to leave itself open to the gaping hole that is the shell smash's defence drop combined with the rampancy of priority attacks and never has that been more clear then in gen 6 with priority running rampant and kyreum taking hits like a champ.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Cloyster and Kyurem-B are not comparable in the slightest; one's a late game cleaner, while the other is a wallbreaker. Cloyster is that Pokemon that aims to be the win condition for the opposing team by setting up and then sweeping, while Kyurem-B is meant to pester walls and in general just be powerful to do a lot of damage immediately, and doesn't really aim to be the wincon. In addition, Kyurem-B hits hard right off the bat while Cloyster requires set up.

This isn't really in defense of Cloyster, as Cloyster is still a terrible Pokemon in OU, but I was pointing out that that comparison wasn't exactly that good since the two are quite different. I do agree with your points on why Cloyster is bad in OU though.

Also, Shell Smash was nonexistent in DPP and Icicle Spear has a whopping 10 Base Power back then. It wasn't until BW with Shell Smash and the Icicle Spear buff that Cloyster was able to be a sweeper. It also was not exactly top tier in BW; just a decent Pokemon and nothing more.

 

[WebBowser]

Skybluejay Welcome to Smogon! I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but there's a lot of things wrong with your post.

1. Let's start with cloyster. Cloyster's best item by far is kings rock, this allows cloyster to hax his way past his counters and really annoy walls with decently powerful multihit moves that prevent the enemy from moving half the time. You should mention that in your analysis (preferably after testing it out yourself, it's actually pretty decent once you get the hang of figuring out when to setup and when to keep smacking the enemy in the face). The rest of your cloyster analysis is spot on.

2. Kyurem..... First off, you never want to run special attack on a moveset that has no special attacks on it, it's just a bad idea. Also, most people prefere sub + 3 attacks mixed kyurem, which looks like this.

move 1: Dragon claw/outrage/earth power
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: ice beam
move 4: subs/roost/iron head
item: lefties
evs: 252+ spa/ 252 hp/ 4 attack/ -def(or special def, I forget which is better tbh)
nature: uhhh, I forget the names (sorry)

The aim with this set is to hit any wall like a truck while being able to take anything that the wall can throw back at it. It likes subs because kyub outspeeds pretty much any wall already, so it can sub before getting status'd. At that point it can abuse it's mixed boltbeam coverage to hit the wall as hard as possible. Roost is another option and a fourth attack is yet another option. EP is slashed over dragon STAB if you want to trade raw physical power for more SE coverage, hitting things like magnezone and heatran.

Anyway, hope you got something out of that.

ScraftyIsTheBest Kyub and Cloyster are actually more similar then you think. Cloyster actually makes a great wall breaker thanks to kings rock. The main difference between Kyub and Cloyster is that Cloyster has hax and the ability to setup, while Kyub is more reliable and has better bulk and damage.

 

[Skybluejay]

Skybluejay Welcome to Smogon! I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but there's a lot of things wrong with your post.

1. Let's start with cloyster. Cloyster's best item by far is kings rock, this allows cloyster to hax his way past his counters and really annoy walls with decently powerful multihit moves that prevent the enemy from moving half the time. You should mention that in your analysis (preferably after testing it out yourself, it's actually pretty decent once you get the hang of figuring out when to setup and when to keep smacking the enemy in the face). The rest of your cloyster analysis is spot on.

2. Kyurem..... First off, you never want to run special attack on a moveset that has no special attacks on it, it's just a bad idea. Also, most people prefere sub + 3 attacks mixed kyurem, which looks like this.

move 1: Dragon claw/outrage/earth power
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: ice beam
move 4: subs/roost/iron head
item: lefties
evs: 252+ spa/ 252 hp/ 4 attack/ -def(or special def, I forget which is better tbh)
nature: uhhh, I forget the names (sorry)

The aim with this set is to hit any wall like a truck while being able to take anything that the wall can throw back at it. It likes subs because kyub outspeeds pretty much any wall already, so it can sub before getting status'd. At that point it can abuse it's mixed boltbeam coverage to hit the wall as hard as possible. Roost is another option and a fourth attack is yet another option. EP is slashed over dragon STAB if you want to trade raw physical power for more SE coverage, hitting things like magnezone and heatran.

Anyway, hope you got something out of that.

ScraftyIsTheBest Kyub and Cloyster are actually more similar then you think. Cloyster actually makes a great wall breaker thanks to kings rock. The main difference between Kyub and Cloyster is that Cloyster has hax and the ability to setup, while Kyub is more reliable and has better bulk and damage.

Thanks for the advice and the nice welcome.

 

[MQJinx]

so i herd u talkin bout dem heliolisk in the viability rankings

Don't use:

Heliolisk @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Volt Switch / Thunderbolt
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast / Volt Switch

Heliolisk may be appealing with that base 109 Speed and nullifying Water-type attacks, but that's all it can ever do. 109 Speed is still slow when you have threats like Ice Beam Greninja, Focus Blast Gengar, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, DD Mega Charizard X, Kyurem-B, Lati@s, ScarfExca, ScarfTTar, ScarfChomp, ScarfTerrak, ScarfDiggers, ScarfMamo, ScarfKeld, Rain Kingdra/Kabutops, and Scolipede threatening to take you out, and its bulk is like a piece of paper ready to be crumpled up. Heliolisk is also vulnerable to priority, meaning that Bisharp, Conkeldurr, and Breloom can revenge kill it easily. Also, Azumarill can opt to run CB or AV to get past it, and Gyarados will predict the switch in and DD or Sub. It also gets KO'd by Aegislash's Sacred Sword, and it fails the OHKO on Blade Form unless running Specs. It doesn't even get an option to cripple Mega Venusaur with, and it gets shut down by Chansey. Life Orb Heliolisk fails the 2HKO on SDef Heatran unless rocks are up.

Use this instead:

Thundurus @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast / Taunt / Thunder Wave / Psychic / Substitute

OR

Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power Ice

OR

Raikou @ Choice Specs / Assault Vest / Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 36 HP or SDef / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch / Calm Mind
- Hidden Power Ice
- Shadow Ball / Extrasensory / Substitute

Really there is little reason to use Heliolisk over Manectric, Raikou, or Thundurus, who can do a lot more in the OU metagame. Thundurus is faster and can beat Lati@s and Gengar, which outspeed and destroy Heliolisk. It can also check flyspam with its higher physical bulk, as a Brave Bird fails the OHKO. Thundurus also has Prankster Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Nasty Plot to emergency check offensive mons, cripple stall, and set up a sweep, respectively. It has access to Psychic to dent Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss. It can even opt to run an anti-Defog set with Defiant to add to its unpredictability. Manectric is even faster and has access to Intimidate, allowing it to create a VolTurn core with Landorus-T. It also has Overheat to break through Aegislash and other Steel-types. Raikou has more offensive power, bulk, and Speed than Heliolisk, allowing it to break through defensive teams more easily, or run AV to serve as an offensive tank, or run a CM set and be a bulky sweeper while having Extrasensory for Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss. You get the point now. There is absolutely no reason to use Heliolisk in OU, as everything it accomplishes, something does it better.

 

[mertyville]

Use this instead:

Thundurus @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster <- I guess you meant this
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying
- Thunder Wave /Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast / Taunt / Thunder Wave / Psychic / Substitute

Reply in Bold lol

 

[HolyAvatar]

Actually, Heliolisk does have a niche as a sun abuser thanks to solar power.
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 332-392 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 332-392 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

2HKOing Chansey with a special attack and no setup (apart from sun) is no small feat.

 

[Hclegend]

Actually, Heliolisk does have a niche as a sun abuser thanks to solar power.
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 332-392 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 332-392 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

2HKOing Chansey with a special attack and no setup (apart from sun) is no small feat.

Charizard and Mega Houndoom say hi. While Helio is a intriguing concept (up there with some CAPs) the exucution is lacklustre at best. (Plus if you're really gonna run a Sun team, you're gonna be running ZardY, which is 10x better than Helio). And with Specs, anything looks good (Insert calculation of normal Charizard using FB against Chansey)

 

[HolyAvatar]

Charizard and Mega Houndoom say hi. While Helio is a intriguing concept (up there with some CAPs) the exucution is lacklustre at best. (Plus if you're really gonna run a Sun team, you're gonna be running ZardY, which is 10x better than Helio). And with Specs, anything looks good (Insert calculation of normal Charizard using FB against Chansey)

Point is, Heliolisk is useable. It doesn't take the mega slot, actually has the speed to use specs (non mega charizard doesn't) and doesn't compound the horrible SR weakness on sunteams. Moreover, it has acces to stab volt-switch to prevent solar power recoil AND use the specs with much less risk of losing momentum. It does have that annoying ground weakness but it's nothing that can't be solved. Last but not least, it doesn't care about heatran, bane of sun teams, be it air balloon or not.
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 360-424 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Ohko with rocks).

ZardY is mediocre at best for a dedicated sun team anyway. It has 3 huge problems: redundant coverage (and the same counters as most sun abusers), 4x SR weakness and being special oriented. The best sun abusers are already special oriented.
Don't get wrong ZardY is very good but much better on non dedicated sun teams since its design is to abuse its own sun.

 

[Hclegend]

Point is, Heliolisk is useable. It doesn't take the mega slot, actually has the speed to use specs (non mega charizard doesn't) and doesn't compound the horrible SR weakness on sunteams. Moreover, it has acces to stab volt-switch to prevent solar power recoil AND use the specs with much less risk of losing momentum. It does have that annoying ground weakness but it's nothing that can't be solved. Last but not least, it doesn't care about heatran, bane of sun teams, be it air balloon or not.
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 360-424 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Ohko with rocks).

ZardY is mediocre at best for a dedicated sun team anyway. It has 3 huge problems: redundant coverage (and the same counters as most sun abusers), 4x SR weakness and being special oriented. The best sun abusers are already special oriented.
Don't get wrong ZardY is very good but much better on non dedicated sun teams since its design is to abuse its own sun.

My god this is turning into the Viability Rankings again what have you done MQJinx
Anyway, Helio is NOT viable in OU. Tis has been explained to death already in the Viability rankings thread. If you want to use Helio, use Helio, I ain't stopping you, but suggesting its better on a Sun team than something THAT SUMMONS ITS OWN SUN FOR FREE is a bit much. Yes it can kill Heatran with FB, so can YZard. Doesn't matter if it doesn't take up a Mega slot only because there are exactly 2 Megas you want in a Sun team, Mega ZardY for self sufficient sun, or MHoundoom to nuke shit with Solar Power (Which is basically Choice Specs)
And before you say "But Helio can kill Water types" ZardY pretty much ALWAYS has Solarbeam. And MHound can potentially run Sunny Day over Nasty Plot to make its Fire Blasts hurt like a BITCH (And he ALSO gets Solarbeam)
"It has the speed to run Specs" a whole 9 more. That isn't gonna help with Specs Keldeo Secret Swording you when you switch in. Not only that, but most 90-100 speed Pokemon run a Scarf anyway! So the speed difference doesn't actually MATTER! No it isn't weak to SR, but that's a risk you gotta take with a Sun team. FFS Defog and Rapid Spin are so easy to fit into a team that it's not a reason anymore. And I bring this up AGAIN, you're using SPECS WITH SOLAR POWER IN SUN, OF COURSE IT'S GONNA LOOK POWERFUL
If there was still permemant sun, it'd be decent, but with limited SD turns you don't have time to switch into Helio. You don't NEED him because everything he can do, ZardY can do better. In lower tiers, sure he could be a good Sun abuser, but not in OU with ZardY around.
(And before you say I'm overselling ZardY, I fucking HATE Charizard, but it's the best abuser of Sun in the entire meta, and you're comparing Helio to it.)

 

[WebBowser]

Imo, specs jolteon is even better then specs helio simply because of baller speed to abuse that volt switch. A volt turner that can outspeed thundy and greninja is pretty valuable, and it's SPA isn't bad at all. Outclassed badly by megaman though, and should only be considered if you really like the super reliable defogger that is phys/mixed defensive megazor (mega amphy is kinda cool too).

 

[AM]

Point is, Heliolisk is useable. It doesn't take the mega slot, actually has the speed to use specs (non mega charizard doesn't) and doesn't compound the horrible SR weakness on sunteams. Moreover, it has acces to stab volt-switch to prevent solar power recoil AND use the specs with much less risk of losing momentum. It does have that annoying ground weakness but it's nothing that can't be solved. Last but not least, it doesn't care about heatran, bane of sun teams, be it air balloon or not.
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 360-424 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Ohko with rocks).

ZardY is mediocre at best for a dedicated sun team anyway. It has 3 huge problems: redundant coverage (and the same counters as most sun abusers), 4x SR weakness and being special oriented. The best sun abusers are already special oriented.
Don't get wrong ZardY is very good but much better on non dedicated sun teams since its design is to abuse its own sun.

Technically most things are usable in OU. That still doesn't make them good or viable though. Also let's try to not make Heliolisk better than it sounds by adding something like Choice Specs in. On paper it sounds nice but in actual practice it's really just a waste of a slot that is better to suited to something more useful. I really just don't want to see this end up like the viability thread with the Heliolisk argument because to be frank, it was really hard to read through that without cringing at times.

 

[MQJinx]

seriously stop discussing irrelevant mons in the viability rankings to make them blacklisted. what's next, delibird?

Don't use:

Darmanitan @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- Superpower
- U-Turn

Darmanitan may sound good with that 140 base Attack with Sheer Force, but that's where the good things stop. Darmanitan is rather slow for an offensive Fire-type and its low defenses mean that it's easy to revenge kill. It's also vulnerable to every hazard, and its reliance on Flare Blitz for a STAB means that it will die before it has a chance to break through every threat to the team. The Scarf set can't OHKO Charizard X unless Zard has below 69% HP, while Zard can DD and KO it in return. Getting walled by Water-types like Quagsire and Slowbro is unacceptable for a physical wallbreaker that uses recoil moves and there are far better options to use for physical attackers like Kyurem-B or Diggersby.

Use this instead:

Victini @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike / Trick
- Brick Break / Final Gambit / Zen Headbutt
- U-Turn

OR

Entei @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Bulldoze

While Darmanitan has to rely on recoil to inflict serious damage, Victini and Entei don't, as their STABs have no recoil, and Entei even has a nice bonus of burning the opposing mon. This is essential as it allows Victini and Entei to break through more threats than Darmanitan. Victini has Bolt Strike to get past Slowbro, has more coverage overall, can cripple stall with Trick, can take down one last mon once its job is done with Final Gambit, and even can run special sets and set up Trick Room. Entei has Extreme Speed to pluck off weakened threats that try to revenge kill it. All of these traits make Victini and Entei better wallbreakers (and revenge killers) than Darmanitan, as they can do more than what Darmanitan can do and not have to worry about limited longetivity like Darmanitan.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I disagree with this. Darmanitan is by far the strongest fire-type in OU, can get past Tyranitar with no problems (Mega Tyranitar can take a CB Brick Break/Bulldoze), and Scarf Darmanitan is extremely dangerous if Azumarill is gone. Darmanitan can use Yawn over U-turn on a LO set to shut down its counters and possibly hit something very hard with a bit of prediction. Victini and Entei can't do that. And almost no Pokemon in the game wants to take a Flare Blitz in the sun.

Why the hell do you compare Darmanitan to Kyurem-B? They both hit different targets and besides their huge base attack stat they have nothing in common. They shouldn't even be compared to each other anyway. Darmanitan isn't outclassed by anything.

 

[Rotosect]

I disagree with this. Darmanitan is by far the strongest fire-type in OU, can get past Tyranitar with no problems (Mega Tyranitar can take a CB Brick Break/Bulldoze), and Scarf Darmanitan is extremely dangerous if Azumarill is gone. Darmanitan can use Yawn over U-turn on a LO set to shut down its counters and possibly hit something very hard with a bit of prediction. Victini and Entei can't do that. And almost no Pokemon in the game wants to take a Flare Blitz in the sun.

Why the hell do you compare Darmanitan to Kyurem-B? They both hit different targets and besides their huge base attack stat they have nothing in common. They shouldn't even be compared to each other anyway. Darmanitan isn't outclassed by anything.

They have the same base speed, same weaknesses to entry hazards, just saying.

And yeah Darmanitan is bad in OU. Victini and Entei have similiar damage output and coverage, but better speed, bulk and utility.

 

[horyzhnz]

tbh Darmanitan is strong, but it's basically a glass cannon that wears itself down. it also needs to use a hit-and-run playstyle, but it's weak to every single form of entry hazard. band darm is too slow and frail, scarf darm is still frail and still gets wrecked by strong priority. idek why you would even consider Yawn of all things on something as frail as darm, on a LO set no less; literally the only reason to run LO is to abuse sheer force. victini gets bolt strike to get rid of waters and other much better coverage options, entei's sacred fire single-handedly makes it better, they both have better bulk, and victini can run many sets. weather nerf made sun teams shitty this gen. darmanitan isn't outclassed by anything, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily good.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Don,t use this.

move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Icicle Spear
move 3: Rock Blast
move 4: Hydro Pump / Razor Shell
ability: Skill Link
item: Never-Melt Ice / Lum Berry
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Naughty / Adamant
Why it's bad
Cloyster was a top tier threat in the last 2 gens with its new and completely outside of context 125 base power multi-strike icicle spears and its 1 turn of setup and then sweep mentality. However gen 6 has become far more prone to the use of priority attacks ((many of which are blunt super effective 1hit kos for the oyster due to his ice typing)) and special attacks now hit through him like a knife through butter. It still needs it's one turn for set up and that is hard to find in the priority filled generation 6

Worse still for the this guy is that the power creep Has indeed caught up to cloyster's level leaving m.r clam outclassed by the power creep of the meta game and now most sweepers have managed to surpass him pure power while staying bulky...something the ol clam haven't done yet

Use this instead.

move 1: Dragon claw
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: Iron head
move 4: Roost/zen headbut
item: Life Orb/leftovers/dragon plate/expert belt/choice band or scarf/ anything that boost attack power
evs: 252 Atk / 56 SpA / 200 def or 200 sp def
nature: Lonely / Naughty

Why it's better:
O.U is a place where pokes with stats of about 500 like to come out and play with each other......kyruem-b has a stat total of 700 and an absolutely viable ability in the form of terabolt so kyruem doesn't exactly play gently.
Anyone who knows their weight in poke'dirt knows that kyruem-b hits like truck and then some and has defences worthy of being a wall((but it's typing and move pool let it down on that)) kyruem-b is a creature of blunt attack ((170 attack@_@ and 120 sp attack))and direct defences of((125/100/90))He is a dragon for the modern times of generation 6 with its proper defence stats, insane attack stats and has had a godsend in the form of iron head ((for the pesky ferries))it can weather the priority attacks that cloyster fears so much while one hit k.oing whatever is set before it with the proper coverage move for the job. Kyruem-b is both durable enough to proudly weather the waves of punishment and is capable of returning the favour twice over.

Conclusion:
Kyreum-b shares some of the same issues as cloyster but kyreum-b nowadays is just plane old better then cloyster at what cloyster used to do in gen 4/5 due to infinitely better stat totals in both defence and attack and the ability to start its rampage on turn one while also being far more durable and it does not have to leave itself open to the gaping hole that is the shell smash's defence drop combined with the rampancy of priority attacks and never has that been more clear then in gen 6 with priority running rampant and kyreum taking hits like a champ.

...
...

Cloyster is definitely better in Gen 6 than Gen 4. Have you even played gen 4...?
-Shell Smash does not exist
-Icicle Spear is base power 15 (ie. base 75 power max with Skill Link...)
-4th Gen Cloyster sucks hard

Also, Kyurem-B and Cloyster share literally nothing in common except for being Ice types... (and your Cube set isn't even using Ice Beam...)

 

[Sweep]

Don't use:

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge

This set has limited coverage (Rock compliments water quite poorly) and is hard walled by several prominent walls in the metagame, such as Ferrothorn and Chesnaught. Kabutops has absolutely nothing to threaten them with, even after a Swords Dance, and Rain teams labor to get by Ferrothorn/Chesnaught as it is so simply "giving Kabutops support" to break down these walls isn't going to cut it. Aqua jet is absolutely terrible and is only used to hit Talonflame (which you beat anyway if you've preserved Kabutops as Brave Bird only does ~50%), Thundurus (which you kill 75% of the time anyway, though it does stop your sweep), and the rare Scarf Terrakion. The majority of the time, Kabutops will not need Aqua Jet as its ridiculous speed in the rain -- enough to outrun Deoxys-S -- allows it to outpace practically the entire metagame. So yeah, this is the set I keep seeing on the ladder and it's actually sad to see people run THIS set on a really damn good Pokemon.

Use this instead PLEASE:

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin / Swords Dance

Superpower (or Low Kick if you'd prefer) enables Kabutops to badly wound Ferrothorn (or outright kill it after a Swords Dance boost) while putting a dent into Chesnaught on the switch, helping Kabutops' teammates wear it down later on in the match. Waterfall is still the main STAB move and hits like a truck under Rain, and Stone Edge bops Pokemon like Latias. This set largely eschews a small amount of its sweeping ability in exchange for dealing with its own checks FAR better...especially when the Pokemon that check Kabutops tend to annoy Rain as a whole. Perhaps Superpower will fall a little short of killing Ferrothorn, but Kingdra will appreciate the hole that has been busted open for it!

Another underrated aspect about Kabutops is its ability to spin. Aegislash and Sableye hate switching in on a Waterfall and Gengar flat out dies, so under Rain Kabutops does an outstanding job of pressuring spinblockers, albeit not quite as good a job as Excadrill. Because Rapid Spin isn't terribly common on Kabutops at the moment, your opponent might not even send in a spinblocker to protect their hazard(s), paving the way for a spin. Against HO teams, Kabutops will usually pay with its life to get a spin off so make sure you have a more established win condition if you choose to clear hazards. Against balance/stall it should have a far easier time spinning. Granted, Swords Dance is still a decent move on Kabutops since physically defensive Clefable and Quagsire are 2HKOed by Waterfall under rain anyway, so you don't have to worry about them walling you. Naturally, any Pokemon that lacks Unaware are going to be terrorized by a +2 Kabutops under rain. Be aware that Kabutops has a hard time setting up a Swords Dance and can often clean HO teams without boosting with its raw power. In summary, use Kabutops! Just please don't run the ladder set.

 

[Uberlox]

Don't use this:

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Relaxed
- Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball / Volt Switch
- Volt Switch / Spikes / Toxic Spikes

Why it's bad:

Forretress isn't necessarily "bad" per se, its just simply outclassed by so so much. If you need a pivot that can remove hazards, then you can use Scizor. But if you go for the most common utility set, then you can instead use Ferrothorn. Forretress, yes, it does have the advantage of having rapid spin, but it doesnt have any recovery. Forretress also has absolutely miserable special defense, so it can only function as a defensive wall or maybe a mixed if you give it max spdef and a boosting nature, but all that is wasted on a stat that only has 60 bas special defense.


Instead, use this:

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
Nature: Relaxed / Impish
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Protect / Thunder Wave
- Power Whip / Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock / Gyro Ball / Spikes

Why it's better:
Ferrothorn is an absolute beast. Having absolutely insane 74 / 131 / 116 defenses with an amazing ability, decent typing, AND this great moveset makes Ferrothorn an absolute necessity to any especially bulky or stall team. Gyro Ball also has a surprising amount of power as well due to its laughable 20 base speed. Not to mention, its 94 base attack is pretty good actually, especially when keeping all its other stats distributed as well. Also, who doesn't love a great hazard setter with leech seed. Once ferro has leech seed up, your pokemon is paralyzed, chances are that this guy is going to have all its hazards up before you even know how to react.

Conclusion:
Ferrothorn is almost better in every regard except for ferrotresses moveset when it comes to Volt Switch and Rapid Spin. However, all of Ferro's other attributes greatly outclass the poor man's ferrothorn. If that doesnt prove it to you, check out these calcs:

252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 135-159 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 108-127 (30.6 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (32 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 39-46 (9.6 - 11.3%) -- possible 9HKO

 

[NeonNinja96]

laughable 20 base speed. Not to mention, its 94 base speed is pretty good actually

Slight error there, but great comparison!

 

[Uberlox]

Slight error there, but great comparison!

Whoops, my mistake. Just edited it, thanks for informing me. Also thanks, glad you liked the comparison!