Pokémon Charizard

[Realm]

Tough Claws on a Fire Blast? Whut. He's saying that YZard can't pull off a physical move because of his lower attack, and that due to XZard's stats he can pull off a flamethrower/fireblast better. Flamethrower and Fireblast aren't contact moves.

In short, HE'S the one forgetting something, and that thing is Drought. YZard can do huge damage with a sun boosted flare blitz to a special wall, probably more if not equal to the amount that XZard can do to a defensive wall with Fireblast.

Sorry, you edited your post, lol. I thought you were comparing Flare Blitzes solely. In which case X has a stronger Flare Blitz due to tough claws.

But Drought can run out and also be overwritten. I wouldn't risk Flare Blitz on Y for that reason, too easy of a counter. Especially not with Stealth Rocks.

Also, Y has to throw in recoil damage to run that. X just throws in Fire Blast which is safe.

 

[Bravadorado]

Well, I have to admit you have a point there. But in my eyes, X-izard is still better because:

1) He isn't killed by so many common attacks (i.e. Stealth Rock and Stone Edge)
2) Like Realm said, Tough Claws, which stays active for as long as XZard does, while YZard's Drought lasts 5 turns and then sputters out.
3) Having THAT much power on an attack like Flare Blitz can actually be more detrimental than helpful, considering the massive recoil damage you're practically begging for. I prefer Special Fire STAB from Flamethrower and Fire Blast, and leaving the Physical attacks to the less self-harmful moves. Call me chicken, but I like to play it safe, and I prefer my Pokémon being able to last.

Also, I didn't say that XZard could pull off Special Moves better than YZard can. I know that's just plain false. I said that XZard can pull off a MIXED Attack set better than YZard. Totally different idea there, dude.

In the end though, it all really comes down to preference. Some people will agree with me, others will agree with you, others will disagree with both of us. We're all people here.

1) No nothing common, just Draco Meteor and Earthquake lol. Also, Xzard has to switch in to SR too (4x before you mega evolve, 2x after) if they aren't cleared, which they should be with the buff to Defog.
2) Tough Claws doesn't affect (m)any special moves or even physical moves that don't make contact (Earthquake), and it is also a 20% increase according to testimony from players, rather than Yzard's 50% boost on fire and instant solarbeam.
3) So using Flare Blitz as a secondary STAB on YZard is begging for damage, but using Flare Blitz as your main STAB on XZard isn't? Or are you using like Firepunch or something?!

What I meant to say was "you're saying XZard can pull off special moves better than YZard can pull off physical moves". Which is simply not very true if we're talking about Flare Blitz on Y vs Fire Blast on X.

I'm not saying that YZard is a better pokemon than XZard, but you can't go around discrediting YZard's ability to use physical moves effectively for mixed wall breaking. He's arguably better at it than XZard. Where XZard shines is the ability to grab a couple DDs and blow through the opposition with physical attacks, and a special attack if he needs it.

 

[RayStrikeAbius]

1) No nothing common, just Draco Meteor and Earthquake lol. Also, Xzard has to switch in to SR too (4x before you mega evolve, 2x after) if they aren't cleared, which they should be with the buff to Defog.
2) Tough Claws doesn't affect (m)any special moves or even physical moves that don't make contact (Earthquake), and it is also a 20% increase according to testimony from players, rather than Yzard's 50% boost on fire and instant solarbeam.
3) So using Flare Blitz as a secondary STAB on YZard is begging for damage, but using Flare Blitz as your main STAB on XZard isn't? Or are you using like Firepunch or something?!

What I meant to say was "you're saying XZard can pull off special moves better than YZard can pull off physical moves". Which is simply not very true if we're talking about Flare Blitz on Y vs Fire Blast on X.

I'm not saying that YZard is a better pokemon than XZard, but you can't go around discrediting YZard's ability to use physical moves effectively for mixed wall breaking. He's arguably better at it than XZard. Where XZard shines is the ability to grab a couple DDs and blow through the opposition with physical attacks, and a special attack if he needs it.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to discredit YZard's ability to use Physical moves effectively. I'm sure that YZard can do a Mixed Attack set as well. I just personally think that XZard can do it better. Not because his attacks are more powerful than YZard's (which they are not, as you have made very clear......and which I really already knew, and was never trying to argue in the first place), but because he'll last longer. YZard may be stronger for the first five turns, and often, that's more than enough turns than you'll need. But if Flare Blitz is your primary choice for Physical STAB on a Mixed Set that uses the effects of Drought, then you probably won't be able to last the whole five turns anyways. And also, what happens if you run into a Pokémon with Flash Fire or such? Not saying there aren't countermeasures for that, just throwing it out there.

And also, no, my XZard doesn't use Fire Punch, nor does he use Flare Blitz. His Fire STAB is Flamethrower/Fire Blast. I prefer to use those other attack slots for physical attacks that help to round out his weaknesses, which you have actually more-or-less listed above.

 

[Realm]

Of course Xzard would have to switch to SR 4x weak by starting as Charizard. Who said any different?

People are referring to X Zard being able to safely switch AFTER the MEvo. They both still need the support for that initial MEvo, but only X doesn't need support (in terms of 50% SR damage) after that takes place. Seriously, it's getting annoying. People act as if we for some reason think X zard is safe even as a Charizard, which is borderline offensive to our intellect.

Not angry, just saying I wish people would understand that that isn't our point when we say Xzard handles SR's better.

 

[Bravadorado]

And also, no, my XZard doesn't use Fire Punch, nor does he use Flare Blitz. His Fire STAB is Flamethrower/Fire Blast. I prefer to use those other attack slots for physical attacks that help to round out his weaknesses, which you have actually more-or-less listed above.

But then you're losing 10BP and 15% accuracy on your STAB that is no longer boosted by your ability Tough Claws or your Dragon Dances. I don't see this being a good life choice :/

Also, 1/3 recoil from sun boosted flare blitz will hurt, but nothing Roost can't fix right up. Not to mention you'd only use it if you needed to, like when faced with a Blissey.

Of course Xzard would have to switch to SR 4x weak by starting as Charizard. Who said any different?

People are referring to X Zard being able to safely switch AFTER the MEvo. They both still need the support for that initial MEvo, but only X doesn't need support (in terms of 50% SR damage) after that takes place. Seriously, it's getting annoying. People act as if we for some reason think X zard is safe even as a Charizard, which is borderline offensive to our intellect.

Not angry, just saying I wish people would understand that that isn't our point when we say Xzard handles SR's better.

I was merely pointing it out because he listed Stealth Rock as something that YZard was weak to, implying that Xzard did not suffer from it. Even if it is only 25% on the next switch for XZard, that's still really really dangerous, especially since most sets don't have Roost (why Yzard does in most). With the buff to Defog, you would be crazy not to remove SR before you sent out your Mega Charizard anyway.

 

[RayStrikeAbius]

But then you're losing 10BP and 15% accuracy on your STAB that is no longer boosted by your ability Tough Claws or your Dragon Dances. I don't see this being a good life choice :/

Lol, we're still going on about this an hour later........

Well Ardent, I actually took that into account myself. In the end, making that small sacrifice is, in my opinion, better than running an all-physical set. And in my opinion, despite all of the things you've said going for YZard, I still think XZard is better in terms of Mixed Attacking on account of his more 'balanced' stats, and his more useful Dragon STAB coverage.

Like I said, it all comes down to opinion.

 

[Alphanex20]

So the best teamates for Zard are probably not Uber-worthy as well. I do think Charizard needs something quick to beat other faster dragons and those pesky fairies.

Aegislash comes to mind for the fairies, they usually cant touch it (bar Fire Blast Togekiss) and it can outpace and kill them with Shadow Sneak or (if you run it) Iron head. Beyond that it is an easy answer to Blissey (Megazard Y's worst enemy) and a spinblocker too! (Less important with the defog buff but still)

 

[mrglass]

Typhlosion should have gotten mega evos instead of Charizard because Typhlosion >>>>>>>> Charizard

But seriously, I don't see why their speed is not increased, because they get larger wings and more agile bodies when Zard mega evolves.
But seriously damage-wise they will wreck.
Though too slow to sweep

I actually disagree with this. 100 Base Speed is enough to outspeed quite a bit already, but what GF really did right with the Zards is boosting the right defensive stat. Each Mega Zard has 3 weaknesses. Zard Y has 2/3 Special weaknesses, and Zard X has 2/3 Physical weaknesses (I'm aware of the phys/special split, but let's be honest, Water and Electric are still mostly special, and Rock and Ground are still mostly physical). So both Mega Charizards are capable of tanking an SE hit while they boost their speeds with Dragon Dance or Flame Charge (personally, I prefer DD for X and Flame Charge for Y, because X enjoys the attack boost from DD, while Y would rather have damage output)

And once X has a DD and Y has a Flame Charge, it's time for a sweep of epic proportions.

If you don't want to carry around a boosting move, being a Flying type with base 100 speed is also nice, because you aren't touched by Sticky Web, so with it down, you can unspeed most grounded threats like Terrakion and Gengar.

 

[Ultimathunder]

I actually disagree with this. 100 Base Speed is enough to outspeed quite a bit already, but what GF really did right with the Zards is boosting the right defensive stat. Each Mega Zard has 3 weaknesses. Zard Y has 2/3 Special weaknesses, and Zard X has 2/3 Physical weaknesses (I'm aware of the phys/special split, but let's be honest, Water and Electric are still mostly special, and Rock and Ground are still mostly physical). So both Mega Charizards are capable of tanking an SE hit while they boost their speeds with Dragon Dance or Flame Charge (personally, I prefer DD for X and Flame Charge for Y, because X enjoys the attack boost from DD, while Y would rather have damage output)

And once X has a DD and Y has a Flame Charge, it's time for a sweep of epic proportions.

If you don't want to carry around a boosting move, being a Flying type with base 100 speed is also nice, because you aren't touched by Sticky Web, so with it down, you can unspeed most grounded threats like Terrakion and Gengar.

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 300-354 (101.01 - 119.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's for 78 HP, 111 Defense and choice scarf terrakion

Scarf latios does about 80% with DM, I think to Y

Despite their good bulk, the charizards don't have the best defensive typing, x is weak to dragon, rock, and ground.
Y is worse, weak to rock, water, electric.
All of these are common attacking types.

And imo in Y's case I would just spam fire blast so I don't waste a turn of sun.

But I guess you are right, they are not too slow to sweep, but can be revenge killed with a bit of prior damage.

 

[mrglass]

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 300-354 (101.01 - 119.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's for 78 HP, 111 Defense and choice scarf terrakion

Scarf latios does about 80% with DM, I think to Y

Despite their good bulk, the charizards don't have the best defensive typing, x is weak to dragon, rock, and ground.
Y is worse, weak to rock, water, electric.
All of these are common attacking types.

And imo in Y's case I would just spam fire blast so I don't waste a turn of sun.

But I guess you are right, they are not too slow to sweep, but can be revenge killed with a bit of prior damage.

I'd actually say X has it worse. I'd say Electric is the worst (least important) common attacking type (As in stuff that's most often run for coverage and not necessarily STAB-Rock, Ground, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Electric), and Water will probably fall out of favor as an attacking type because of the nerf to hail (not to say that it's bad, but it's very similar to Fairy in that it's best qualities are Defensive, with decent attacking qualities).

Ground weakness sucks really bad for X, though I'm not too sure how bad a Dragon weakness is with the massive nerf the typing took this gen.

 

[Thorhammer]

Water will probably fall out of favor as an attacking type because of the nerf to hail (not to say that it's bad, but it's very similar to Fairy in that it's best qualities are Defensive, with decent attacking qualities).

Hail was never significant. Water is both one of the best offensive and defensive types in the game, and it's never even needed to consider Hail to attain that title. That's not changing.

It's not too common as a coverage move, but it's extremely common as STAB.

 

[mrglass]

Hail was never significant. Water is both one of the best offensive and defensive types in the game, and it's never even needed to consider Hail to attain that title. That's not changing.

It's not too common as a coverage move, but it's extremely common as STAB.

My brain must not be working tonight. I meant water would fall out of favor with the nerf to RAIN. Hail is a joke of a weather. GF clearly had no idea what they were doing when they created it, because it doesn't reach anywhere near the same caliber as the other 3 weather effects.

 

[Thorhammer]

My brain must not be working tonight. I meant water would fall out of favor with the nerf to RAIN. Hail is a joke of a weather. GF clearly had no idea what they were doing when they created it, because it doesn't reach anywhere near the same caliber as the other 3 weather effects.

Ahh. I see where you're coming from, but you're still overstating Rain's fall. It won't be what it was with Drizzle everywhere, for sure, but it was already a fantastic type even without Drizzle. Drizzle is as powerful as it is because it gives such a huge bonus to an already-wonderful type; it's a large part of why rain has always been so far ahead of sun.

Of course, speaking of the advantages of sun, it's worth remembering that Drought means Megazard Y will be taking neutral damage from Water-type moves anyway. In fact, with its higher SpD, it'll take a good bit less damage from moves like Surf and Hydro Pump than Megazard X, although of course it'll take harder hits from less-common physical Water moves like Waterfall.

 

[mrglass]

Ahh. I see where you're coming from, but you're still overstating Rain's fall. It won't be what it was with Drizzle everywhere, for sure, but it was already a fantastic type even without Drizzle. Drizzle is as powerful as it is because it gives such a huge bonus to an already-wonderful type; it's a large part of why rain has always been so far ahead of sun.

Of course, speaking of the advantages of sun, it's worth remembering that Drought means Megazard Y will be taking neutral damage from Water-type moves anyway. In fact, with its higher SpD, it'll take a good bit less damage from moves like Surf and Hydro Pump than Megazard X, although of course it'll take harder hits from less-common physical Water moves like Waterfall.

While I agree Water is a fantastic type (I'd go as far to say it's the best type, and has been since gen 2), I think the main reason Drizzle was so dominant over Sun last gen was because most pokes that got a benefit from it also were also water types getting the 1.5x boost, the only opposing effect being the buff to Thunder. Sun on the other hand mainly boosted Grass abilities and moves, which didn't get the 1.5x boost, AND had a 1.5x amplified weakness. Charizard was the only Fire type to get a benefit from it's ability and type last gen, though SP still takes way too much health. Add to that the fact that almost all fire types had a nasty weakness to inconspicuous stones, and it's a bit surprising that Sun was better than no weather at all.

Aside from hazards, which are going to be less of an issue this gen, Fire really isn't that bad a type at all. This gen it has 6 resistances, and it has some seriously powerful STAB moves in Fire Blast and Flare Blitz. Water's still a better typing, but Fire's not that far behind this gen.

I think if Water didn't mostly boost itself in rain, Sand would be the best weather all around.

 

[Realm]

4x weak to Rock, 2x to electric, and 2x to water.

Y has worse weaknesses than X. 2x weak to ground > 4x weak to rock, and Dragon weaknesses aren't as bad since Dragons are super effective both ways. X's worst weakness is actually Rock, all things considered.

Y has more resistances but it's weaknesses are definitely worse. Fire doesn't do anything to Electric, nor Fire to Water, in the same way Dragons to Dragons. But Solar Beam helps with Water, as does Drought. But that has nothing to do with Char Y's "type". Y is just fortunate it has Drought and Solar Beam to lessen the blow, but again, that has nothing to do with type. Y has good tools to deal with one of it's major weaknesses, so that's good for Y. Char X can also damage Dragons right back, but unfortunately it doesn't have an ability or move that lessens the blow. But in exchange, it at least doesn't have any 4x weaknesses. Objectively, X has the better type in terms of weaknesses but it has one less tool to deal with those weaknesses than Y. Though Y's drought can be countered fairly easy by another weather user.

 

[Realm]

Guys, what do you think about TailWind for Char X instead of Dragon Dance?

252 Atk, 252 HP, 4 Def/Spd

Jolly or Adamant Nature (leaning on Adamant), of course. This would also make Flare Blitz last longer (If you want to use that)

 

[Shiruba]

ps: if the sun is up, char-y isn't actually weak to water, so
there's that.
two weaknesses, one of which is x4, both of which can be played with to an extent via roost.
...charizard gets roost, right?

 

[Realm]

ps: if the sun is up, char-y isn't actually weak to water, so
there's that.
two weaknesses, one of which is x4, both of which can be played with to an extent via roost.
...charizard gets roost, right?

Not if Drought gets overwritten by another weather ability/move or runs out. It's type is still weak to Water, it's just nulled by an ability. Definitely helps, it can just be countered/out lasted.

But yeah, Zard gets roost.

 

[The Great Gastly]

I'm interested in using Charizard-Y, but I have a question.

Is Drought used as a more self-sufficient ability (enhancing its sweeping and/or wall-breaking prowess), or is it better to build a sun team utilizing it?

 

[FrostFire]

^In gen 5, I would've said that if you're running drought, then you might as well get the most out of it by stacking some sun abusers in there (aka Chlorophyll Venusaur). However, now that Drought has been nerfed (and because Charizard-Y can't hold a Heat Rock to prolong Drought to 8 turns), I would be more hesitant to build a team around sun support. I think that, instead of building an entire team around sun, I would probably have a couple of other ways I could benefit from it, while also building in other win conditions as well.
So to answer your question, I would see Charizard-Y as being more self-sufficient than a team supporter. However, you can put a one or two other ways of abusing sun in your team, should you get the chance in battle. If you want to make a fully-fledged sun team, then Ninetales is probably the better pokemon because it can provide it's team with longer-lasting sun via Heat Rock. Obviously Heat Rock Ninetales is pretty urghhh though.

 

[SJCrew]

Your attitude toward XY Sun, FrostFire, should have been everyone's attitude toward BW Sun. Idk why people stacked up on garbage like Dugtrio when they could have been frontloading their team with Dragons and Terrakion. Now it's going to be more important than ever that Sun teams disregard their weather as much as possible... IMO, there may no longer be a Sun team archetype in the new OU at all.

 

[SlaXer]

Currently running Salamence and ChariX as a pseudo Mence/Rayquaza uber combo, working wonders, especially since ChariX eats fairies for breakfast.
Thunderpunch is doing alright against those pesky Azumarills.

 

[Reikai]

Currently running Salamence and ChariX as a pseudo Mence/Rayquaza uber combo, working wonders, especially since ChariX eats fairies for breakfast.
Thunderpunch is doing alright against those pesky Azumarills.

I've seen this Salamence/Rayquaza Combo being talked about here abit, but I am curious what exactly does it mean?

While obviously it makes use of both Salamence and Rayquaza dragons, what in particular makes it so powerful?

 

[SlaXer]

I've seen this Salamence/Rayquaza Combo being talked about here abit, but I am curious what exactly does it mean?

While obviously it makes use of both Salamence and Rayquaza dragons, what in particular makes it so powerful?

Pre gen 6 you could spam Outrages with one to weaken the opponent team and then the second one to clean up. Basically running 2 DDers (or scarf moxie) to break through the opponent team with brute force.
Now that's harder to do with fairies, but CharX has stab Though claws Flare Blitz to take care of fairies no named Carbink or Azumarill. I'm running Thunderpunch on CharX and EQ on Salamence and works perfectly to take care of those 2 and Heatran.

 

[Tapsibaba]

Hi guys,

I wanted to play CharX on cartridge to battle friends but I can't find how Charizard can learn Thunderpunch on X/Y... Is it possible?
Is there another way to play CharX while keeping a good coverage?

And in your opinion, what is the best set for him? It don't have a really good Speed BS, is Adamant > Jolly for CharX?