1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

"Checks and Counters" Project

Discussion in 'Archives' started by twash, Feb 2, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. twash

    twash
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,330
    Approved by Setsuna

    Counters Project

    Hey guys. Recently I noticed that some of the "Checks and Counters" sections of Pokemon on site are not very in-depth. This section is arguably the most important section, and is one of the main reasons as to why analyses are read. For this reason, Setsuna has given me the go ahead to kickstart this project to revamp some of the sections. This does not mean we are completely rewriting them - we are just going to add more information. We will be starting with OU, and if it is successful I see no reason why it cannot move to the other tiers too.

    There will only be a few of us working on writing the sections. However, as we will post the updated versions here and leave them for a couple of days, feel free to jump in with any small additional changes that you feel necessary. The people working on this project are harsha, jrrrrrrr, Nachos, and Pocket. I am more than confident that they can produce great work.

    An example update is below. As you can see, it is essentially a case of adding more detail. Almost all of the Pokemon listed are OU, and it is a case of simply providing the reader with more information.

    Old:
    Current Landorus (open)
    Landorus's counters depend heavily on what set and moves he's running. Gliscor can take any sets lacking Hidden Power Ice with ease, stalling out Stone Edge's low PP. Without boosted Stone Edge, Skarmory checks Landorus, as does Bronzong should Landorus lack Hammer Arm. Hippowdon takes anything besides boosted Earthquake and Grass Knot. Also, Landorus risks being revenge-killed; faster users of super effective moves can take down the Swords Dance set, while strong attackers can take down the Rock Polish set if Landorus doesn't OHKO. Air Balloon users are a problem that plagues Landorus lacking Hammer Arm, most being able to take a unboosted Stone Edge easily and retaliate. Priority users are also a problem for Landorus, Azumarill being the worst of the bunch due to having an absurdly powerful super effective priority attack in Aqua Jet.

    New:

    Landorus's counters depend heavily on what set and moves he's running. When playing against Landorus, it is important to be wary of switching into an obvious U-turn which would give the opponent the upper hand. Gliscor can take any sets lacking Hidden Power Ice with ease, stalling out Stone Edge's low PP. Outside of Smack Down and heavily boosted attacks, both Skarmory and Bronzong are excellent switch-ins to Landorus. Skarmory can use Whirlwind to get rid of Landorus in the short term, or can alternatively use Brave Bird to deal some heavy damage. Bronzong can abuse its low Speed, hitting Landorus very hard with Gyro Ball. Ice Beam Cresselia is immune to Earthquake and can use her massive Defense to sponge Stone Edge, while Hippowdon is able to take anything besides a boosted Earthquake and can hit hard with Ice Fang. Both Slowbro and Tangrowth are able to sponge Landorus's attacks, and are also able to regain HP via their ability Regenerator. Virizion resists Earthquake and Stone Edge, and can hit Landorus with a fatal Hidden Power Ice. Even after Stealth Rock, Gyarados can survive an unboosted Stone Edge from an Intimidated Landorus, and will usually knock Landorus out with Waterfall. Cloyster is easily able to survive a hit from Choice Scarf Landorus and will OHKO with Icicle Spear. Rotom-W can abuse its Ground-type immunity to avoid Landorus's Earthquake, and can use Hydro Pump to remove him from play. Defensive Rotom-W can take a Stone Edge, whereas a Choice Scarf set can immediately outspeed and threaten Landorus. Bulk Up Breloom can 2HKO with Seed Bomb whereas Landorus will fail to 2HKO back with Hidden Power Ice.

    If unboosted, Landorus's Speed stat leaves him at the mercy of being revenge-killed by fast sweepers. Starmie and Choice Specs Latios can both OHKO Landorus, while Choice Band Terrakion will on average score an OHKO with Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage. Gengar is immune to Earthquake and can shrug off Hidden Power Ice, and can use Substitute and Disable to prevent Stone Edge from connecting. Gengar can then hit Landorus hard with a Life Orb Shadow Ball. Life Orb Mienshao can outspeed and use Hidden Power Ice, while Choice Scarf Politoed can destroy Landorus with a rain boosted Surf. Priority users are a problem for Landorus; Weavile and Mamoswine can Ice Shard him into oblivion, much like how Azumarill deals massive damage with his super effective Aqua Jet. Scizor and Dragonite can also revenge kill weakened Landorus with Bullet Punch and ExtremeSpeed respectively.
  2. Nachos

    Nachos
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,521
  3. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,212
    So you guys will post the new analyses and we'll chime in with suggestions, right? Just making sure I got that straight. Anyhow, good luck on this; it should be really useful!
  4. twash

    twash
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,330
    That's correct. If you see anything glaringly bad or there's something that you feel should be added in, feel free to post pointing it out.
  5. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    twash, that's a great revamp of Landorus's Counters section :d It's very thorough and detailed.

    Bulk Up Breloom is worth a mention, since after a Bulk Up boost, Breloom 2HKOs with Seed Bomb, whereas Landorus fails to 2HKO with HP Ice. It easily switches into Landorus's EQ or Stone Edge aimed at other mons.

    Gengar can switch into a weak HP Ice, EQ, or Hammer Arm and either Sub Disable Landorus's Rock move or hit it hard with LO Shadow Ball.
  6. Nachos

    Nachos
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,521
    This is pretty long, but Rotom-W is one of the most common and threatening mons nowadays so..

    Old:


    Current Rotom (open)
    Latios, Latias, Blissey, and Chansey are the big four that will almost assuredly give Rotom-W trouble. If Rotom-W lacks Thunder Wave, Latios and Latias can come in for free on the Standard set and begin Calm Minding or threaten with a powerful Draco Meteor. Blissey and Chansey take laughable damage from any of Rotom-W's attacks and have Natural Cure to get rid of any status they sustain. In turn, they can Toxic Rotom-W to cripple it for the rest of the match or simply wear it down with Seismic Toss. Although they must be wary of Hidden Power Fire, Grass-types are also problematic for Rotom-W. Virizion in particular has great Special Defense to sponge Rotom-W's attacks, and it can either set up Calm Mind or heal up with a super effective Giga Drain. If its Toxic Orb has already been activated and Rotom-W doesn't carry Hidden Power Fire, Breloom becomes a huge problem, as it can either choose to attack or threaten with Spore. Although Will-O-Wisp will cripple it, Ferrothorn is free to set up Spikes on any Rotom-W lacking Hidden Power Fire. While Rotom-W has great coverage, it will often have problems beating Pokemon with high Special Defense, such as Deoxys-D and Umbreon, if it lacks an attack with which to hit them super effectively.


    New:

    Rotom-W's biggest problems tend to be Grass-types with good bulk, as well as specially defensive behemoths like Chansey, Blissey, and Latias. Celebi is a common answer to Rotom-W as resists both its STABs and doesn't mind Will-O-Wisp due to Natural Cure. Celebi can take a Hidden Power Fire nicely, and retaliate with a STAB Grass move of choice. Other Pokemon in this category include Ferrothorn who can set up Stealth Rock and Spikes on it, and then use Power Whip. Ferrothorn is commonly seen on rain teams that reduce the damage output of Hidden Power Fire, although it must be cautious of being burned by Will-O-Wisp. Virizion can come in on anything and destroy Rotom-W with Giga Drain due to its good Special Defense. Breloom sets are viable switch-ins, although a Breloom with no defensive EVs must watch out for boosted Hydro Pumps in the rain. Gastrodon with Storm Drain can come in on basically anything Rotom-W has apart from Hidden Power Grass, and use Toxic to wear down Rotom-W. It should be noted that a lot of these Pokemon hate being Tricked a Choice Scarf by Rotom-W, and the player should be cautious when deciding what set Rotom-W may be by looking at Team Preview, or alternatively noting the lack of Leftovers recovery after taking residual damage.

    Chansey and Blissey stop Rotom-W cold in pretty much every way possible and can simply Toxic it, meaning it will struggle to sponge hits from the likes of Politoed in the rain. Chansey and Blissey should watch out for Pain Split as they switch in as it will heal Rotom-W to high HP due to its low base HP stat. Like above, they need to be cautious of Trick too. Latias can come in on due to resistances and simply Calm Mind and all over it, while all Rotom-W can do to it in return is Will-O-Wisp.

    Rotom-W also has to watch out for immensely powerful attacks from faster Pokemon such as Choice Band Terrakion, who will put the washing machine out of commission with a Close Combat. Fighting-type friends like Infernape can do a big chunk to Rotom-W with Close Combat too. Latios can come in on any move and use Draco Meteor to OHKO Rotom-W and dent anything else that decides to switch in. Lum Berry Dragonite can set up on Rotom-W with Dragon Dance and then smash it with Outrage. Jolteon can come in on Volt Switch or Thunderbolt, which will truly throw a spanner in the machine if Rotom-W is running a Choiced set. Specially defensive Ninetales isn't too bad of an option either, although you should be cautious to not switch in too many times, especially if Stealth Rock is up. On the subject of sun, Venusaur is another friendly face for Rotom-W to see, coming in on anything but Hidden Power Fire. Substitute and Protect Gliscor can stall out Rotom-W's Hydro Pump's, then crippling Rotom-W with Toxic as it fails to do anything worthwhile.

    Generally, what makes Rotom-W most frustrating to counter is Volt Switch and the fact its immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. For that reason, it's hard to "nail" Rotom-W down, but a combination of Stealth Rock, any other potential residual damage, hitting it hard with STAB moves as it switches in, and having something to take Volt Switch comfortably can usually take down the eccentric washing machine.

    ------

    Edit: Politoed is pretty good already, although I've added a few tweaks with Tentacruel, Gastrodon and the bit at the end to do with weather wars.

    Old:

    Current Politoed (open)
    Due to the sheer strength of its Water-type moves, Politoed's best switch-ins are those with Water Absorb, a resistance to Water-type attacks, or amazing special bulk. These switch-ins should be mindful of burns from Scald and sleep from Hypnosis, however. Suicune is one of the best Politoed checks, as it can use Calm Mind, Rest, and Sleep Talk to shrug off anything non-Perish Song Politoed uses. If Politoed isn't faster, Suicune usually does not mind Encore either. Thanks to solid special bulk and Water Absorb, Jellicent and Vaporeon can sponge everything Politoed throws at them bar Toxic. Electric- and Grass-type Pokemon with a strong STAB attack, such as Jolteon, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Shaymin, and Celebi, can usually check Politoed in a pinch. Like its fellow bulky Water-types, Politoed is extremely susceptible to Toxic and Toxic Spikes, which hinder its longevity significantly. Both Latias and Latios possess massive special bulk and can brush off Ice Beam, and specially defensive Latias can take boosted Hydro Pumps as well. Latias can Calm Mind against Politoed, while Latios outright maims it with Draco Meteor. Both should be mindful of Ferrothorn switch-ins, though, and predict accordingly. Magnezone is a great weapon against a Ferrothorn and Politoed core, with STAB Electric-type attacks for Politoed and Magnet Pull for Ferrothorn.
    Since many rain teams rely on Politoed as their source of power, other forms of weather are checks to Politoed as well. However, Abomasnow, with its Ice / Grass typing and good Special Defense, is the only weather inducer actually capable of defeating Politoed one-on-one. If the opposing team happens to contain a Swift Swim user—most commonly Kingdra—Politoed's team may struggle to find a way around it. When using other weather inducers, the best thing to do is to try defeat Politoed as quickly as possible. Due to Team Preview, this may be difficult to execute, but since Politoed lacks recovery and can be crippled with Toxic, it will yield to constant pressure.


    New:

    Due to the sheer strength of its Water-type moves, Politoed's best switch-ins are those with Water Absorb, a resistance to Water-type attacks, or amazing special bulk. These switch-ins should be mindful of burns from Scald and sleep from Hypnosis, however. Gastrodon fares well here as it takes Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Focus Blast nicely, but should be cautious of Hidden Power Grass on Choiced sets, or Toxic on defensive sets. Jellicent is in the same boat here too, although it can Taunt Politoed to prevent it from using Toxic. Tentacruel is a fine option as well, and can use either Rapid Spin or Toxic Spikes for free. Electric- and Grass-type Pokemon with a strong STAB attack, such as Rotom-W, Jolteon, Ferrothorn, and Celebi can usually check Politoed in a pinch. Like its fellow bulky Water-types, Politoed is extremely susceptible to Toxic and Toxic Spikes, which hinder its longevity significantly. Both Latias and Latios possess massive special bulk and can take an unboosted Ice Beam, while specially defensive Latias can take multiple boosted Hydro Pumps as well. Latias can Calm Mind against Politoed, while Latios outright maims it with Draco Meteor. Magnezone is a great weapon against a Ferrothorn and Politoed core, with STAB Electric-type attacks for Politoed and Magnet Pull for Ferrothorn.

    Since many rain teams rely on Politoed as their source of power, other forms of weather can act as checks to Politoed as well. If the opposing team happens to contain a Swift Swim user—most commonly Kingdra—Politoed's team may struggle to find a way around it. However, Abomasnow with its Ice / Grass typing and good Special Defense is the only weather inducer actually capable of defeating Politoed one-on-one. When using other weather inducers, the best thing to do is to try defeat Politoed as quickly as possible. Due to Team Preview this may be difficult to execute, but since Politoed lacks recovery, it will yield to constant pressure. In the weather war, it's the residual damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes that will probably bring down Politoed, especially if it's switching into Tyranitar and Ninetales often. For that reason, having some way to punish popular Rapid Spinners that may help Politoed, such as Starmie and Tentacruel, is a good idea.
  7. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,049
    For the Rotom-W, mentioning Lati@s should be wary of Signal Beam from the Expert Belt set, because if predicted correctly with Sandstorm and Stealth Rock in play, Expert Belt Latios takes 56%HP - 67%HP damage while Support Latias takes 40%HP - 48%HP, 2HKOing the former and 3HKOing the latter. No sane person keeps a Rotom-W in on either of these Pokemon, but late game, could mean the difference.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    Very good idea guys. Everything seems fine but i have a question...
    Is this really needed? I mean, every single pokes that resists U-turn has to be wary when switching into U-turn, not to give the opponent the upper hand but this doesn't mean that we should mention it in every single one. Or is there a meaning which i am missing?
  9. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,157
    To whomever decides to contribute to this project -- keep in mind that it is important to keep the information you add as concise as possible without cutting out on its relevance; I'm sure nobody wants long-winded descriptions if you can actually say things in a simpler way. Common sense. That said, I am confident you guys will do a good job.
  10. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,171
    reserving Celebi

    This is Tyranitar:

    current
    Show Hide
    Fighting-types were blessed in dealing with Tyranitar. Not only do they resist both of its STABs, they possess moves that are 4x effective and commonly hit its weaker physical Defense. However, it is important to note that most Fighting-types are better against certain sets, while they simply don't hold up against others. For example, Heracross may be able to switch-in many times, but if Tyranitar has a Choice Band, Heracross will be removed quickly. Other than Fighting-types, counters are basically on a set by set basis; for example, any set that isn't mixed or holding a Choice Band will have a doozy of a time facing most physical walls. Finally, there are many common Pokemon in OU that can capitalize on Tyranitar's many weaknesses. Unfortunately, this is relatively easy with its low Speed. Still, there are plenty of reliable checks to Tyranitar. Politoed can switch in, negate the sandstorm with rain, and can deal hefty damage with Hydro Pump. Alternatively, it can use Scald and threaten to burn Tyranitar, hampering it for the rest of the match. Dugtrio can trap it and revenge kill some varieties, obviously depending on which attacks Tyranitar has. Intimidate users, including Gyarados or even Salamence are threatening to most sets. Gliscor benefits from the sandstorm, and works well as long as Ice Beam is not being packed.


    Fighting-types were blessed in dealing with Tyranitar. Not only do they resist both of its STABs, they possess moves that are 4x effective and hit its weaker physical Defense. The Fighting-type best suited for beating Tyranitar is Terrakion, who gains an Attack boost from Crunch and a Special Defense boost from the permanent sandstorm. Watch out for the odd Superpower or Earthquake, though. Virizion also gets the Attack boost from Dark-type attacks, isn't weak to Choice Tyranitar's Ground- and Fighting-type moves, and has the Special Defense to accidentally switch into Fire Blast. Conkledurr resists both of Tyranitar's STABs and can exploit this fact to recover HP with Drain Punch or use Bulk Up. Heracross resists most of Tyranitar's moves but must be wary of Fire Blast and Stone Edge. Breloom is generally a safe switch-in, but must watch out for Fire Blast and Ice Beam. Machamp is another solid counter, but can only switch in so many times due to its lack of recovery. Lucario actually 4x resists both of Tyranitar's STABs, but it's rare to see a Tyranitar without a super effective move against Lucario.

    Other than Fighting-types, the dominant Steel-types in OU can generally find their way in against a Tyranitar. Scizor and Heatran must be careful, but they can usually come in safely. Scizor has a super effective STAB U-Turn, while Heatran can either set up Stealth Rock or burn Tyranitar. Jirachi doesn't care about most of Tyranitar's moves and can use it to spread paralysis and attack with Iron Head. Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory are shaky counters, as the most common Tyranitar sets feature Fire Blast. Gliscor does a good job of countering Tyranitar and can also use it to set up a Substitute-Toxic-Protect cycle, or get a Sand Veil boost.

    Because of Tyranitar's immense Attack stat, high base power moves, and great defenses, directly countering it can be quite difficult. However, checking it is an entirely different story thanks to its low Speed. Dugtrio is the greatest Tyranitar check with Arena Trap and Earthquake. Politoed can also come in, negate the sandstorm and hit with a STAB Water-type move. Pokemon like Mew and Jellicent can outspeed and cripple Tyranitar with Will-O-Wisp. Ninetales can do the same thing but with the added bonus of replacing the sandstorm with sunlight. Celebi is not OHKOd by an unboosted Crunch and can attack with Giga Drain. Infernape can not switch in except in the most desperate of times, but it is a great check to any Tyranitar with STAB Fighting-type attacks and Mach Punch to beat Dragon Dancers. And as strange as it sounds, Eviolite Chansey has defenses that are good enough to challenge any non-Choice Band or Superpower Tyranitar set. Tyranitar is one of the most dominant forces in the entire metagame, but it's rare to find a team without some way of beating it thanks to its low Speed and multitude of weaknesses.
  11. Iconic

    Iconic
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,897
    nice work friends, gonna sticky this
  12. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,171
    Celebi:

    current
    Show Hide
    It's certainly a shame Celebi didn't receive Psyshock, for it would have definitely crippled some of its best counters in the game: Blissey and Eviolite Chansey. While both can't really do much to Celebi due to its access to many forms of recovery (including Natural Cure for status), their high Special Defense ensures that Celebi can't do much to them either. Additionally, many Dragon-type Pokemon, especially Latios, Latias, and Hydreigon, will wall Celebi if it lacks the appropriate coverage move for them. Even then, Latios and Latias will both use Celebi as setup fodder for a Calm Mind sweep. In general, Celebi's main problem is being walled since its coverage is limited to few moves, but be prepared if Celebi happens to pack Hidden Power Fire or Earth Power for your Steel-type Pokemon. It would be safe to scout the grass pixie's movepool before switching in the appropriate resist.

    Celebi's other main problem is its seven weaknesses, all of which can be exploited by a faster Pokemon. Infernape, Gengar, Charizard, Tornadus, and Scolipede all have super effective STAB attacks to use against Celebi, making them amongst the best checks. Celebi must also be extremely wary of users of Pursuit and / or Choice Scarf, the most dangerous ones being Heracross, Scizor, and Tyranitar.


    It's certainly a shame Celebi didn't receive Psyshock, because it would have hammered some of Celebi's best counters: Blissey and Eviolite Chansey. While they can't really do much to Celebi due to its access to many forms of recovery (including Natural Cure for status), their high Special Defense ensures that Celebi can't do much to them either. The Nasty Plot set can break through these two pink sponges if they lack Toxic, but most of the time your best option will be to switch. Speaking of switching, Celebi is also weak to Pursuit and can be picked off by common carriers of the move like Tyranitar, Scizor, Heracross and Weavile.

    Additionally, many Dragon-type Pokemon like Latios, Latias, and Hydreigon, will utterly wall Celebi if it lacks the appropriate coverage move for them. The Lati twins are especially notable because they can use Calm Mind along with a boosting Celebi, except they have access to Psyshock so they will always win that battle. Dragonite and Salamence resist Giga Drain and have high-powered STAB attacks to scare Celebi away. Reuniclus is another Pokemon that can use Calm Mind effectively against a Celebi. Ninetales and Volcorona both have excellent Special Defense and will set up on Celebi with no issues.

    Sets without Hidden Power Fire will find difficulty facing the omnipresent Steel-types in OU. Scizor is OHKOd by Earth Power after Stealth Rock, Nasty Plot and Life Orb, but other than that obscure situation it destroys any Celebi without a Fire-type move. Heatran laughs at everything Celebi has except Earth Power, and it can use its STAB Fire Blast to force Celebi out. Ferrothorn can set up Spikes or Stealth Rock against a Celebi, but that's about it. Metagross does a great job at forcing Celebi out, but it is also vulnerable to Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire. Jirachi is in the same boat, except it can use Calm Mind or paraflinch Celebi to death. Scrafty is one of few Fighting-types that can actually counter Celebi with its great defenses and boosted Crunch.

    Celebi is a pretty hard Pokemon to counter because of its combination of great defenses, great movepool, great attacking stats and Natural Cure. Taking advantage of its 7 weaknesses with a faster Pokemon is usually the way to go. A fast U-turn can be predictable but effective from the likes of Landorus. Choice Band Terrakion also outspeeds and OHKOs with X-Scissor. Choice Scarf Heracross or Scolipede can check Celebi with Megahorn. Abomasnow can come in on sets without a Fire move, set up Hail for your team, and threaten Celebi with a STAB Blizzard at 100% accuracy. Mamoswine can use Icicle Crash but must watch out because Celebi can outspeed it. Gengar outspeeds Celebi but does not usually OHKO with Shadow Ball, and must respect Celebi's Psychic. Tornadus has excellent rare Flying STAB to batter Celebi, but its defenses are not good enough to switch in repeatedly. Infernape, Charizard, Chandelure and other strong Fire-types can usually work their way into Celebi and can threaten it, especially with a Choice Scarf. It's important to note that Celebi can cripple most of the aforementioned checks with Thunder Wave, so beware.
  13. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,171
    Gyarados

    current
    Show Hide
    The best counter to Gyarados is Eviolite Porygon2, who can Trace back Gyarados’s Intimidate, shrug off a Waterfall, and severely damage Gyarados with Discharge or Thunderbolt. Bulky Water-types like Vaporeon can also switch into Gyarados easily and either cripple it with a burn from Scald or threaten Gyarados with Hidden Power Electric. Without Bounce, Gyarados also has a difficult time getting past bulky Grass-types like Ferrothorn. Faster Pokemon carrying Electric-type attacks such as Starmie and Rotom-W are also huge threats to Gyarados. Rotom-W in particular is an effective answer to Gyarados since it resists Waterfall, Earthquake, and Bounce. Latios and Latias can similarly check Gyarados, and while they rarely carry Thunderbolt, their STAB Dragon-type attacks are still huge threats to Gyarados.

    Gyarados is not a fan of residual damage. Offensive sets are limited in their ability to switch in due to Gyarados's weakness to Stealth Rock, while defensive sets have a harder time walling certain threats if Stealth Rock is present. Sandstorm also takes its toll on Gyarados, wearing it down or removing its Leftovers recovery.


    Countering Gyarados is a unique challenge due to a combination of Waterfall's flinch rate, permanent rain being common, and the looming threat of gaining an Attack boost from Moxie. Because of this, sacrificing a Pokemon to check Gyarados later is not a reliable strategy, unlike most sweepers. The best counter to Gyarados is Eviolite Porygon2, who can shrug off a Waterfall, severely damage Gyarados with Discharge or Thunderbolt, and Trace back Gyarados’ Intimidate (if it has it). Rotom-W also has good defenses, resistances to almost every move in Gyarados' movepool, and STAB Electric-type moves to finish it off. Rotom-C does the same thing except it does not resist Bounce. Fast Pokemon with Electric-type attacks such as Starmie and Jolteon are good ways to get rid of Gyarados, the latter outspeeds even if Dragon Dance was used once. Latios and Latias can similarly check Gyarados, and while they rarely carry Thunderbolt, their STAB Dragon-type attacks are still huge threats to Gyarados.

    Bulky Water-types like Vaporeon, Jellicent and Suicune can also switch into Gyarados easily and either cripple it with a burn from Scald or threaten with Hidden Power Electric. They must watch out for Substitute, though, as Scald does not do enough damage to break it. Politoed can force it out with Perish Song or attack with Scald and Hidden Power, but the rain may help Gyarados later in the match. Without Bounce, it is almost impossible for Gyarados to get past bulky Grass-types like Ferrothorn and Celebi. Skarmory has the defenses to come in and threaten with Brave Bird or Whirlwind, but must watch out for flinches and Taunt. Jirachi, Metagross and Magnezone can challenge sets that lack Earthquake. Dragonite can take any attack thanks to Multiscale, and can use any number of attacks such as Outrage, ExtremeSpeed, Thunder, Dragon Tail, or even a Dragon Dance of its own.

    Gyarados is not a fan of residual damage. Offensive sets are limited in their ability to switch in due to Gyarados' weakness to Stealth Rock, while defensive sets have a harder time walling certain threats if Stealth Rock is present. Sandstorm, Toxic and Leech Seed also take their toll on Gyarados, wearing it down or removing its Leftovers recovery. Fast Choice Scarf users like Terrakion, Gengar and Landorus can usually force Gyarados out and pile on the residual damage.
  14. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    3,084
    J7r, when you talk about how luke counters tyranitar, it sounds odd to say that tyranitar rarely lacks a super effective move against it when the same can be applied to terrakion. Mabye mention that luke is the best choice to switch into its stab moves, and terrakion is a more "technical" choice (forgive me here) since it benefits from crunch and takes nothing from special moves

    Edit: Oh unless the standard tyranitar is dark stab, fire blast and ice beam. I always use choice band/scarf so i could well be wrong
  15. Nachos

    Nachos
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,521
    Reserving Dragonite, which should be done soon. I'll edit this post when it's done.
  16. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    ^ wait, Nachos, yee is actually doing a revamp of the Dragonite OU analysis, so it's better to tell him what his "Counters & Checks" are missing or lacking in detail, etc than here, imo
  17. complete legitimacy

    complete legitimacy Honko's Happy Funtime With Men
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,149
    I'm doing a Cloyster revamp, and if you guys are editing its Checks and Counters section anyway, you may as well add it in to mine before it goes on-site. I don't know if we're allowed to just request them like this, but I don't think it's a bad idea.
  18. twash

    twash
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,330
    Yeah that's fine. I spoke to Nachos earlier, I think he is going to do this.

    I'm afraid that's not allowed. Read the OP fully for more details on how this is working.

    I'm hoping to do a couple tonight, depends on whether I get much work done beforehand.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
  20. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Hey, jrrrrrrr, thanks for being so prolific with the revamps! I really dig them. Just 1 nitpick though (Celebi).

    Heracross, Abomasnow, and Chandelure are slower than Celebi, so add Scarf before their names to relate to your "check with faster threats" idea. Charizard only ties with Celebi and is an obscure threat, so no need to mention it. I would also remove the mention of Scolipede, since it is not a relevant threat in OU (you want to mention Accelgor, Galvantula, and Durant, too?)
  21. twash

    twash
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,330
    Sorry alexwolf, missed your post the first time. I think one sentence is warranted because of how popular and frustrating U-turn Landorus is, especially as some of Landorus's counters are quite easy to take advantage of on the subsequent turns. Even though a lot of Pokemon learn the move, only a few can pull it off very well offensively (Scizor, Landorus, and Rotom-W are the mega culprits).
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    I am starting to get a bit confused so let's get this clear. Are you telling that the Landorus user should be careful not to bring him in on a U-turn or that the Landorus user shouldn't use an obvious U-turn against a poke to whom your best switch-in is Landorus, thus bu using U-turn you lose momentum if it stays in?
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    No, twash is saying that you need to be wary of Landorus's U-turn when countering opponent's Landorus, because Landorus can easily U-turn out of your Landorus counter into a more advantageous match-up.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,120
    I see. So shouldn't it be like this: '' When playing against Landorus...'' ?
  25. twash

    twash
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,330
    Didn't realise that was unclear, will change it. Thanks!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)