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"Checks and Counters" Project

Discussion in 'Archives' started by twash, Feb 2, 2012.

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  1. sirndpt

    sirndpt
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    c/p version (open)
    <p>With Bulk Up Breloom being the standard set used in BW OU, Gliscor, which was once considered a huge threat to Breloom, is no longer as nefarious as it used to be. However, against SubPunch Breloom, Gliscor still reigns supreme. Acrobatics Gliscor is also the bane to Breloom, but is only used in conjunction with Tyranitar due to the fact that its objective is to take control of Substitute + Sand Veil. The most surefire counter to Breloom is Skarmory. With Brave Bird and its solid Defense, Skarmory stops Bulk Up Breloom in its tracks while taking minimal damage. +2 Breloom isn't even doing 50% to standard Skarmory and is OHKOed by Brave Bird, so even with Spore, Skarmory is a huge threat. In fact, only the max Attack SubPunch set has a decent shot against Skarmory. Celebi is the other major counter to Breloom, as it has excellent physical defense and resists both of Breloom's STABs. It also has Recover, allowing it to effortlessly heal off any damage that it takes from Breloom's attacks. Additionally, Natural Cure completely nullifies Spore, allowing Celebi to essentially switch in at any time for free. Most Celebi also carry Psychic or Hidden Power Fire to easily dispatch Breloom.</p>

    <p>There are, of course, some other notable problem Pokemon for Breloom. Mew immediately comes to mind as the majority are defensive. Make sure that if you try and take Mew on with Breloom, Breloom has at least one boost and no opposing Pokemon are asleep, as Mew can 2HKO Breloom with Ice Beam or Psychic. Dragonite is yet another common Pokemon that has the potential to completely stop Breloom in its tracks. The rain variant with Hurricane gives Breloom no chance of winning; while Breloom can potentially beat the Lum Berry Dragon Dance set if it had already set up Bulk Up boosts prior, that normally is not the case. Reuniclus is in the same boat. The Trick Room variant is beatable; however, with a low sleep roll Breloom is done for. The Calm Mind variant offers almost no way of beating it, thus steer clear. Latios and Latias also take care of Breloom without a problem. Latias can simply recover and set up on Breloom without worrying about the damage dealt, while Latios can OHKO even Bulk Up Breloom with Draco Meteor and Psyshock.</p>

    <p>In addition, Ghost-types can be troublesome to Breloom, as they are immune to Focus Punch and usually either faster or extremely bulky. Gengar is especially nasty, as it resists Seed Bomb and can use Disable to remove Breloom's access to its coverage move. Chandelure also resists Seed Bomb due to its Fire typing, though it has to watch out for Stone Edge on the offensive set.</p>

    <p>More big problems for Breloom are Pokemon that pack multi-hit moves. Haxorus is the most prevalent; it can break Breloom's Substitute with the first hit of Dual Chop and then prevent Focus Punch with the second hit. On top of that, Haxorus resists Seed Bomb, the coverage move of choice for the offensive SubPunch set, and has enough Defense to take a Stone Edge or Facade if need be. Mamoswine and Cloyster can do the same with Icicle Spear, but they risk getting caught by a Seed Bomb, and are both weak to Focus Punch or Superpower as well.</p>
  2. Stone_Cold

    Stone_Cold
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    original (open)
    Hydreigon's counters are few and far between, as with its good defensive stats, Hydreigon can take just about any neutral hit and retaliate with a strong attack. However, its weakness to common Fighting-type attacks and average Speed will ultimately be the bane of its existence. Heatran can switch in on a resisted attack, and cripple it with Dragon Pulse. It must, however, watch out for Hydregion that can switch attacks, such as those using Life Orb or Expert Belt. Special walls such as Chansey and Jellicent can easily wall the Choice sets, and wear down Hydreigon with Seismic Toss and Ice Beam, respectively.

    Speedy Fighting-types such as Infernape and Terrakion can exploit Hydreigon's average Speed and KO it with their powerful STAB attacks. However, these Pokemon have to be careful when they switch into Hydreigon, since they will take massive damage from Draco Meteor.




    Hydreigon has the potential to severely cripple teams; however, due to a plethora of type weaknesses there’s a few pokemon that can stop it quite easily. Blissey/Chansey are the best Hydreigon counters in the game, there’s simply nothing Hydreigon can do to them. Behind Blissey/Chansey would be Gastrodon as the most reliable Hydreigon counter, Dragon Pulse won’t beat Gastrodon so don’t even try. A Specs Draco Meteor to Gastrodon does have the potential to 2HKO, however versus the Scarf and Life Orb Variant Gastrodon can just Recover stall. Most Heatran are specially defensive these days, and they have the ability to take Draco Meteors on the switch in, and Fire Blasts activate flash fire making Heatran a decent counter to many Hydreigon types. LO Hydreigon 2HKO's with focus blast while non LO is a 3HKO. With focus blast’s unreliable accuracy, that can often cause a problem. With the main set being the Sub Set these days however, in Rain with Surf, Heatran poses no threat. Jirachi is a nice counter to Hydreigon, as it can take each set very well as well as being able to wall the Fire Blast variant in Rain.

    Conkledurr is yet another very solid counter to Hydreigon assuming the sub variant, dealing massive damage with Drain Punch and Mach Punch. However, that's the only set he can switch into unless predicting a neutral move from the Scarf variant. CM Reuniclus is a valuable check that one does not want to be matched up against. Hydreigon can’t win against it unless it sub stalls its Focus Blasts and have extreme luck in them missing so most Hydreigon tend to stay away from Reuniclus. With Dark Pulse Hydreigon does stand a chance but it will most likely have to rely on a crit versus the CM variant. Volcarona is yet another threat you stand virtually no chance against given Rocks are spun away, while it can't switch in directly it can come in while Hydreigon is under a Substitute or Hydreigon's special attack is hindered from Draco Meteor and proceed to set up on you with Quiver Dance. Hydreigon can’t outspeed, unless Scarf and even then it doesn’t beat Volcarona so it’s best to switch immediately if that situation occurs.

    Terrakion, Infernape, Gengar, Latios, Latias, and ScarfTyranitar are pokemon that can outspeed and reliably OHKO Hydreigon which is why being under a substitute is important. Haxorus can Dual Chop Hydreigon, and Scizor can 2HKO with Bullet Punch. The sun version always beats Scizor while the Rain version cannot, so be wary. Mammoswine is another pokemon that can potentially be a threat, if not for the fact that Ice Shard never OHKO’s, so as long as Hydreigon's HP is high enough Mammoswine can't OHKO. Cloyster is yet another pokemon which can be troublesome given its focus sash is still intact. With stealth rocks though, Hydreigon outspeeds and can kill with Dragon Pulse/Fire Blast and doesn't have to risk the shaky accuracy of Focus Blast, without stealth rocks Hydreigon normally cannot kill though unless it uses Focus Blast. Breloom troubles Hydreigon if Sub isn’t up, but once again only if it’s the Rain Hydregon. Due to the special defenses of Breloom, even a Draco Meteor from Scarf Hydreigon cannot KO and Breloom can come in with a Drain Punch regaining its HP; however, that's assuming it is the Bulk Up variant of Breloom which tend to run a Careful nature. For the Breloom users who like to run max special defense, Breloom has a chance to live LO Draco Meteor from Modest Hydreigon and almost always lives a LO Draco Meteor from Timid Hydreigon.




    original analysis (open)
    Blissey and Eviolite Chansey wall Ninetales pretty well, and specially bulky Water-types, Jellicent and Tentacruel in particular, will cause massive problems even in the sun. All of these Pokemon will have problems dealing with Nasty Plot, so if they are specifically troublesome, that may be a set to consider. Thick Fat Snorlax is also an issue but very much dislikes being burned by Will-O-Wisp, though Ninetales itself very much dislikes taking Earthquakes from Snorlax, sometimes being 2HKOed by aggressive sets such as Choice Band even if Snorlax is burned.

    Sadly for Ninetales, enemy weather inducers tend to be very good counters to it as well. With the weather turned in their favor, Tyranitar and Politoed will take relatively low damage even from Energy Ball or Hidden Power Fighting, and can easily OHKO in return. Specially defensive Hippowdon may be able to come in and wall Ninetales with Slack Off or KO back with Earthquake if they are in good health.

    Faster Dragons attempting to counter Ninetales must be wary of the power of Drought-boosted Fire Blast, which can do moderate damage through resistances to threats such as Choice Specs Latios. Defensive Latias can mostly shrug this off, however, and makes a strong counter. Flash Fire users such as Heatran and Chandelure must be handled by Ninetales with care, as allowing them to unleash the power of a Flash Fire + sun-boosted STAB Fire Blast is a scary prospect indeed. Most versions of Ninetales carry Will-O-Wisp, so Wobbuffet should not attempt to trap it unless Ninetales carries a Choice item, and even then, it must be wary of the intensity of Ninetales's Fire-type STAB move in sunlight. Dugtrio can trap and eliminate almost any Ninetales easily and is only foiled by Air Balloon or Choice Scarf versions.




    Ninetales is one of those rare pokemon that is OU because of its ability, while being weak to almost the entire OU metagame. When one uses Ninetales, the object is to treat it carefully and make sure it can come in as much as possible to change the weather. When it comes to counters, Chansey and Blissey do the most reliable job while opposing weather abusers Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Politoed primarily stop Ninetails in its tracks as well, although a switch in could result in a Toxic or Wil-O-Wisp from Ninetales thus crippling the opposing pokemon. Tentacruel also does an A+ job at completely cutting Ninetales off. Heatran and Chandelure do a great job at switching in and handling Ninetales as well, with Chandelure even being able to set up and potentially sweep Ninetales. However, due to the fact that Ninetales cannot handle Heatran and Chandelure very well, that is why most people pair Dugtrio with Ninetales to quickly trap and revenge opposing threats. With Nasty Plot on Ninetales, it does have a shot at defeating Chansey and Blissey; however, if Chansey or Blissey wield Toxic than Ninetales doesn't have a very strong shot.

    Next in line to hard counter Ninetales would be every dragon in OU, despite running Hidden Power Ice, it will rarely garner a KO.. Salamence won’t switch into Ninetales as much fearing the Wil O Wisp; however, Dragonite more often than not runs Lum Berry and fears no attacks from Ninetales using him as set up bait. Latios, Latias, and Hydreigon can both use Ninetales as bait to set up on. Latias and Latios have a field day with Ninetales resisting nearly every attack it has, Latias can even Calm Mind set up without many worries and if Ninetales lacks Roar and Latias gets under a Substitute, that could very well contribute to a sweep.

    Haxorus with Dragon Dance and Lum Berry completely destroys sun, although watch out for Roar or a switching into a Fire Blast because a Sun Boosted Fire Blast from Ninetales can 2HKO Haxorus and being slower means Haxorus will be KO'd first, that's why it's important to try and get Haxorus in as safe as possible. Jellicent gives Ninetales trouble, however with the bulk many Ninetales run, and if Ninetales happens to run Solarbeam or Nasty Plot Energy Ball, it isn’t a total threat. Volcarona and Reuniclus are two giant checks to Ninetales, both being able to set up Ninetales without worry and creating a potential sweep, both can be handled if NInetales has Roar which has its positive uses. Terrakion is a threat to every team, and one can switch in Terrakion into a fire move and manage to KO just about any pokemon in OU, however with a correct Wil O Wisp prediction, you have just crippled the most threatening pokemon in today's metagame.

    ---

    For Ninetales, the analysis for the checks and counters wasn't bad. I just made it more up to date and added a few more threats that weren't exactly mentioned. I even managed to shorten it a bit and got straight to the point.
  3. Nachos

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    Hydregion:

    Conk isn't a counter as it's nailed by Draco Meteor if it switches in, it's a good check though. Reun isn't really a counter or a check, it's not coming in to take a hit or even after something dies due to the fear of Dark Pulse. Other than that, it's good. Make a note of Jellicent walling sets that lack Dark Pulse (the Substitute set online lacks it).

    Ninetales:

    Dugtrio mention maybe? The rest is spot on and quick to the point.

    Also, I'll be reserving Virizion.
  4. Stone_Cold

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    Nachos, SubHydreigon has been much more common iirc, and conkledur is 3hit KO by Dragon Pulse, so it technically CAN counter, although it's also a great check. Also, the sub sets don't use dark pulse, although your right reuniclus isn't going to take a hit first.

    For ninetales, yeah forgot duggy although that's more of a check then a counter as well.

    I'll be sure to edit those in and then have it gp'd.

    Since Twash isn't as active, i got the 2nd post changed and will try and update it as much as possible to keep it up to date.
  5. Pocket

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    Hydreigon

    Nachos, Jellicent doesn't exactly take Draco Meteors well either (unless its specially defensive).

    Stone Cold, note that Hydreigon has other sets than Sub + 3 Atks; some of the counters you mentioned cannot take a LO / Specs Draco Meteor. For example, Breloom is roasted by a LO Draco Meteor. You need to specify which Hydreigon sets these Pokemon counter, unless they are a universal counter to Hydreigon, like Chansey and Blissey. Even for those pink blobs, add a mention that they would need to be wary of a Mixed Hydreigon's STAB LO Outrage.

    Specially defensive Jirachi in the Rain is worth a mention, since it can shrug off Fire Blasts now, and Hydreigon without Earth Power or Earthquake would most probably be walled.

    I would organize the paragraph a bit more. Mention the general counters, such as Gastrodon, Blissey, Chansey, and Calm Heatran. Then in a separate paragraph, mention specialized counters, such as Conkeldurr, Breloom, Reuniclus, Jirachi, and Volcarona. Finally in the 3rd paragraph, I would mention checks / revenge-killers.

    Also another common mistake: readers who are viewing the Checks & Counters section are looking for ways to BEAT Hydreigon. The following sentences imply that the readers are USING Hydreigon, which is not the case:
    Easy fix for these two would to replace all the mention of 'one' and 'you' with 'Hydreigon.'
    Re-phrase: "which can cause Hydreigon trouble
    The reader is using Breloom to counter Hydreigon, not a Hydriegon user oneself. So telling the Breloom user to be wary of Breloom surviving a Hydreigon's Draco Meteor is absurd. Also "due to the special defenses of Breloom" means nothing, since Breloom has shit special defense actually. This entire sentence needs to be revised for clarity.
    I have no clue what you're trying to say here... Hydreigon annihilates Cloyster with or without Rocks. Specify that Cloyster is holding Focus Sash, or else you would only confuse the readers.

    Ninetales

    I feel that some of the details that you took out of the original analysis were significant:
    • Mention that Nasty Plot variants can overwhelm Chansey, Blissey, Tentacruel, and Jellicent.
    • Mention that although Snorlax, Hippowdon, Tyranitar are all great counters, they must risk being crippled by a Will-O-Wisp burn
    • Mention that Politoed (and weakened TTar / Hippo) may be forced to retreat against a well-timed Sunny Day & SolarBeam combo
    • It's worth cautioning Heatran and Chandelure (and TTar) users that Ninetales is often paired up with Dugtrio to remove these counters.
    • Mention that Haxorus risks a 2HKO from a Sun-boosted Fire Blast, and it's also slower than Ninetales. This makes Haxorus a check at best.
    • Specify Volcarona and Reuniclus as checks, since they both do not enjoy taking Sun-boosted Fire Blasts
    • Mention Landorus as a check to Ninetales
    • Terrakion should be mentioned with Snorlax and Tyranitar as a Pokemon that can counter Ninetales, but fears getting crippled by Wisp.

    Again, you need to remember that readers are trying to COUNTER Ninetales, NOT trying to beat Ninetale's counters.
    This entire section gives a vibe that the reader is the one wielding Ninetales. You write the first sentence about Haxorus in first person, which blatantly implies this. Other phrases such as "giving Ninetales trouble" or "these counters are a huge threat to Ninetales" or "you just crippled Ninetales counter with Will-O-Wisp" all reflect your misunderstanding that this section is to DEFEAT Ninetales / Sun teams, not using it.

    I would give weather summoners their own paragraph, since they not only beat Ninetales, but also undermine the entire strategy of Ninetales's team.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Common problems I saw in both analyses.

    1) You keep changing the speaker: Sometimes you write in first person, other times in second person, and then other times in 3rd person. Stick with 3rd Person (the Pokemon that is being addressed).

    2) Somewhat unorganized. It seems like you just dump checks and counters randomly in 2 paragraphs. I would like to see more organization. An effective approach is to provide hard counters (or the most reliable counters) in the 1st paragraph, then specialized counters in the 2nd paragraph, and then checks / revenge-killers / Pokemon that can set-up after a kill on the 3rd paragraph.

    3) You forget that CC section's purpose is to BEAT the Pokemon, NOT warning about counters that would trouble the reader when wielding the Pokemon. This is a common mistake that is also seen on the original CC you are revamping, so be careful to not repeat the same error.

    Keep these 3 points in mind when revamping further CC sections. Thanks!
  6. Stone_Cold

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    "Again, you need to remember that readers are trying to COUNTER Ninetales, NOT trying to beat Ninetale's counters. "

    yeah my bad, i'll get to editing now. I assume that after running some damage calcs and some of your information actually being incorrect, you assumed before checking yourself. So i'll go ahead and edit it up and you can take care of it again. Muh-bad.

    Also, I try to refrain from mentioning sets that aren't going to be used but every blue moon because I don't want the reader to expect it and have their entire game messed up due to expecting a set that is used once in every 5 thousand OU matches. (I haven't seen a single Snorlax or Outrage Hydreigon in my BW OU career, which means that it probably isn't worth mentioning. Although, if it means that much to add them in, I gladly will.

    I restructured a lot of sentences and made sure to make a few things more clear. Sorry for my mistakes, never did C&C work before so it'll just be a matter of doing more of these and practicing.
  7. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Hey guys! I'm joining the project (approved by Pocket!) and I'll try to help write up a few more of these and get it done quickly! I guess I'll take Abomasnow as its C&C section is pretty subpar.

    original (open)
    Abomasnow's main counters are Pokemon whose typing allow them to resist its STAB moves; Steel- and Fire-type Pokemon are therefore the best counters. They can come in on even Abomasnow's coverage moves and threaten the snowman out with their STAB moves. Bronzong, Jirachi, Metagross, and Volcarona are great examples of such Pokemon.

    If one takes into account the fact that Abomasnow's offenses are only average, bulky walls that aren't hit super effectively by its STABs can come in and set up on it. Blissey is one of the examples; it can come in and, with access to Wish and Flamethrower, threaten the snowman or attempt to outstall it. Chansey can also come in on Abomasnow, but its sub-par Special Attack means that if the snowman sets up a Substitute and avoids Toxic, Chansey can only attempt to outstall Abomasnow.

    <p>Abomasnow suffers heavily from its poor typing; with an astonishing total of seven weaknesses, it is very hard to preserve Abomasnow without proper team support. Even with coverage moves such as Earthquake and Wood Hammer, Ninetales and Tyranitar are extremely hard for Abomasnow to face because they not only have super effective STAB moves, but they also summon their own weather. Additionally, Tyranitar can pack Stealth Rock which severely limits Abomasnow's switch-in opportunities. Common priority users such as Scizor, Lucario, and Conkeldurr will all severely damage Abomasnow due to their high Attack. This also extends to all Fighting-types that can tank a hit from Abomasnow and demolish it swiftly with STAB moves. Reuniclus is very problematic for Abomasnow to deal with, as it takes no damage from hail or Leech Seed and can KO in return with Focus Blast.</p>

    <p>Steel-types also have their way against Abomasnow, as they resist its STAB and can tank Hidden Power Fire with ease. Jirachi, Metagross, and even Bronzong will wreck Abomasnow with STAB Steel moves such as Iron Head or Gyro Ball. Additionally, all three of the aforementioned Steel-types can use Stealth Rock, so Abomasnow will not be able to switch back in easily for fear of losing 25% of its health. Fire-type Pokemon such as Heatran, Infernape, and Volcarona all maul Abomasnow with their super effective STAB moves. Additionally, Infernape and Volcarona can take the turn that Abomasnow switches out on as an opportunity to set up and sweep soon after.</p>

    <p>Abomasnow's low offenses by OU standards allow standard walls such as Chansey, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn to walk all over it. While Ferrothorn does have to be wary of the uncommon Hidden Power Fire, Abomasnow in turn has to worry about STAB Gyro Ball. Chansey can Toxic stall Abomasnow while Skarmory and Ferrothorn do well in setting up hazards or crippling the switch-in. Speaking of entry hazards, Spikes and Toxic Spikes cripple Abomasnow badly and heavily limit its survivability. Furthermore, struggle can be applied to any wall that Abomasnow does not have the power to break through, and one can use the turn that Abomasnow switches out on as an opportunity to gain momentum.</p>
  8. Harsha

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    I'll be taking Heatran as well!

    original (open)
    Bulky Water-type Pokemon are a big threat to Heatran, especially to sets that do not run Hidden Power Grass. If these Pokemon can cure themselves from status, they can also take on the Torment and specially defensive sets. Hydration Vaporeon, ChestoRest Kingdra, and CroCune are a few example of Pokemon who can do this. Chansey and Blissey do not mind any attacks except for Toxic, and can wall it quite easily. Latios and Latias may not like Hidden Power Ice or Dragon Pulse, but they can usually survive an attack and pummel Heatran with Surf. On the offensive side, Air Balloon Terrakion can outspeed any non-boosted Heatran, take Hidden Power Grass at worse, and can proceed to KO with Close Combat. Speaking of Air Balloon, popping the item makes Heatran suddenly vulnerable to Pokemon such as Landorus.

    <p>Heatran has trouble dealing with most specially-based walls, especially bulky Water-types. Jellicent, Gastrodon, and Gyarados all give Heatran that do not carry Hidden Power Grass or Hidden Power Electric a hard time. While all of these can be ruined by Toxic, they can OHKO or 2HKO Heatran in return. Tentacruel also does well because it can use Rapid Spin to rid the field of Stealth Rock that Heatran lays and attack back with Water-type STAB moves. However, Tentacruel must watch out for Earth Power due to its secondary Poison typing. Other specially-based walls such as Chansey and Blissey can waltz on Heatran by simply attacking it with Seismic Toss or crippling it with Thunder Wave. Chansey and Blissey do have to watch out for TormentTran and Magma Storm Heatran, though, because these sets are capable of beating the pink blobs in one-on-one situations, as the former can shut down Seismic Toss for a turn and the latter can prevent the blobs' escape and recovery.</p>

    <p>Fighting-types give Heatran heavy trouble if they can tank a hit or outspeed it. Pokemon such as Lucario and Terrakion pose double threats because they can boost their stats as Heatran switches or OHKO with Close Combat. Conkeldurr can absorb Will-O-Wisp or tank a hit that isn't Fire Blast or Magma Storm and either retaliate with a powerful Drain Punch or set up while Heatran switches out. Other great checks to Heatran include Landorus, who can come in on Earth Power or Protect and wreak havoc with Earthquake. Choice Scarf Landorus does not work well as a check because specially defensive variants of Heatran can scout moves with Protect and react accordingly, but Expert Belt Landorus can bluff a Choice Scarf and ruin the opponent's reaction. Heatran that carry an Air Balloon can conveniently escape from Landorus early on, but once the Air Balloon pops, Landorus has free reign. Ironically, opposing Heatran equipped with Air Balloon are also good checks, as they are immune to Fire-type moves and Earth Power does not damage them. Reuniclus, Hydreigon, and Gliscor can come in on nonthreatening moves and either set up or do major damage to Heatran. However, Gliscor and Hydreigon must make sure to avoid Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    <p>Politoed is arguably one of the best Pokemon in dealing with Heatran, as it summons rain, halving the power of Heatran's Fire STAB. It immediately puts Heatran at a disadvantage as without its Fire STAB, Heatran is forced to rely on Earth Power and Hidden Power on offensive sets or status-inflicting moves on defensive sets. Starmie, another common offensive Water-type, does well against Heatran because it can use Rapid Spin to get rid of Stealth Rock and use Hydro Pump to blast away Heatran. Additionally, Starmie has the ability to OHKO or 2HKO most Rapid Spin blockers in the metagame, so Heatran is often hard-pressed to retain momentum once Starmie switches in. Rotom-W does well in dealing with Heatran, though Choice-locked sets can often backfire against Heatran that carry Protect. For this reason, the best Rotom-W sets that work effectively against Heatran are those that can switch moves but attack with authority, such as the bulky attacker.</p>
  9. Nachos

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    Abomasnow:

    Make a note that Ninetales and Tyranitar can't come in for free in fear of Earthquake or Wood Hammer respectively. You could also make a small mention of hazards like Spikes and TSpikes. That's it really, the rest is good.

    Heatran:

    Drop Suicune and Vaporeon as counters, nobody good uses them. Gyarados also has to watch out for random Lava Plume burns. Mention Tentacruel there as well, it can spin Heatran's rocks and only has to worry about Earth Power. Heatran with a Balloon is also a good counter, as most Heatran don't carry Hidden Power or Dragon Pulse. Otherwise good.

    Also, here's Virizion which I've also posted in shrang's thread.

    Current Virizion (open)
    Virizion's main counters are Latias, Latios, Reuniclus, and Tornadus; they all outspeed (using Trick Room in Reuniclus's case) Virizion and can OHKO it either with Psyshock or Hurricane. Virizion also has some trouble getting past Gliscor with the Swords Dance set, but of course Gliscor must watch out for Hidden Power Ice. Another Pokemon that can be problematic is Forretress; it isn't weak to Fighting-type attacks and has a huge base Defense, so it can take a boosted attack and use Gyro Ball to do significant damage in return.


    Due to Virizion's speed, it'll likely that what you'll use it counter is something that is faster and resists its moves. Latios and Tornadus are examples of this and cleanly OHKO Virizion with Psyshock and Hurricane respectively. Whilst Latios takes little damage from any of Virizion's moves, Tornadus has to watch out for Hidden Power Ice or the more rarer Stone Edge, although the former will not KO before a boost. Gengar is also a good option, only worrying about Stone Edge or Hidden Power Ice; the latter will do little and both can be stopped by Disable if need be. Volcarona can take the time to set up on Virizion and doesn't fear it even if has a boost. Stone Edge is the only problem and that tends to be uncommon. Chandelure is in the same boat and can easily set up a Substitute if need be. Alakazam is also a decent option if you're desperate, but it can't switch into anything.

    In terms of bulk, Chansey and Blissey wall Special sets provided they haven't been allowed to boost too much. Specially bulky Steel-type Pokemon such as Scizor and Jirachi will give it trouble. Scizor can easily set up Swords Dances while Jirachi can defeat it with Body Slam and Iron Head. Dragonite, provided it has a high EV investment in HP and Special Defense, can easily set up on Virizion with Dragon Dance due to Multiscale. Other Dragons holding a Choice Scarf such as Salamence or Hydregion will also do fine as long as they don't switch in on Hidden Power Ice. Reuniclus has the bulk to a boosted Giga Drain, and can hit Virizion hard with its STAB move or use Trick Room.

    Generally, anything resisting it's STAB moves, Grass and Fighting, and can target its lower Defense stat will usually beat Virizion.
  10. V0x

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    <@harsha> is anyone available to gp something

    on it no body take

    <p>Abomasnow suffers heavily from its poor typing; with an astonishing total of seven weaknesses, it is very hard to preserve Abomasnow without proper team support. Even with coverage moves such as Earthquake and Wood Hammer, Ninetales and Tyranitar are extremely hard for Abomasnow to face because they not only have super effective STAB moves, but they also summon their own weather. Additionally, Tyranitar can may pack Stealth Rock,[comma] which severely limits Abomasnow's switch-in opportunities. Common priority users such as Scizor, Lucario, and Conkeldurr will all severely damage Abomasnow due to their high Attack. This also extends to all Fighting-types that can tank a hit from Abomasnow and demolish it swiftly with STAB moves. Reuniclus is very problematic for Abomasnow to deal with, as it takes no damage from hail or Leech Seed and can KO in return with Focus Blast.</p>

    <p>Steel-types also have their way against Abomasnow, as they resist its STAB and can tank Hidden Power Fire with ease. Jirachi, Metagross, and even Bronzong will wreck Abomasnow with STAB Steel moves such as Iron Head or Gyro Ball. Additionally, all three of the aforementioned Steel-types can use Stealth Rock, so Abomasnow will not be able to switch back in easily for fear of losing 25% of its health. Fire-type Pokemon such as Heatran, Infernape, and Volcarona all maul Abomasnow with their super effective STAB moves. Additionally, Infernape and Volcarona can take the turn that Abomasnow switches out on as an opportunity to set up and sweep soon after.</p>

    <p>Abomasnow's low offenses by OU standards allow standard walls such as Chansey, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn to walk all over it. While Ferrothorn does have to be wary of the uncommon Hidden Power Fire, Abomasnow in turn has to worry about STAB Gyro Ball. Chansey can Toxic stall Abomasnow,[comma] and while Skarmory and Ferrothorn do well in setting up hazards or crippling the switch-in with status?. Speaking of entry hazards, Spikes and Toxic Spikes cripple Abomasnow badly and heavily limit its survivability. Furthermore, struggle can be applied to any wall that Abomasnow does not have the power to break through, and one can use the turn that Abomasnow switches out on as an opportunity to gain momentum.</p>

    [gpstamp]1/1?[/gpstamp]
  11. V0x

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    harsha is slave driving me ok :< i'm dong heatran
  12. V0x

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    <p>Heatran has trouble dealing with most specially-based walls, especially bulky Water-types. Jellicent, Gastrodon, and Gyarados all give Heatran that do not carry Hidden Power Grass or Hidden Power Electric a hard time. While all of these can be ruined by Toxic, they can OHKO or 2HKO Heatran in return. Tentacruel also does well because it can use Rapid Spin to rid the field of Stealth Rock that Heatran lays and attack back with Water-type STAB moves. However, Tentacruel must watch out for Earth Power due to its secondary Poison typing. Other specially-based walls such as Chansey and Blissey can waltz on Heatran by simply attacking it with Seismic Toss or crippling it with Thunder Wave. Chansey and Blissey do have to watch out for TormentTran and Magma Storm Heatran, though, because these sets are capable of beating the pink blobs in one-on-one situations, as the former can shut down Seismic Toss for a turn and the latter can prevent the blobs' escape and recovery.</p>

    <p>Fighting-types give Heatran heavy trouble if they can tank a hit or outspeed it. Pokemon such as Lucario and Terrakion are two threats that can pose double threats because they can boost their stats as Heatran switches or OHKO with Close Combat. Conkeldurr can absorb Will-O-Wisp or tank a hit that isn't Fire Blast or Magma Storm and either retaliate with a powerful Drain Punch or set up while Heatran switches out. Other great checks to Heatran include Landorus, who can come in on Earth Power or Protect and wreak havoc with Earthquake. Choice Scarf Landorus does not work well as a check because specially defensive variants of Heatran can scout moves with Protect and react accordingly, but Expert Belt Landorus can bluff a Choice Scarf and ruin the opponent's reaction. Heatran that carry an Air Balloon can conveniently escape from Landorus early on, but once the Air Balloon pops, Landorus has free reign. Ironically, opposing Heatran equipped with Air Balloon are also good checks, as they are immune to Fire-type moves and Earth Power does not damage them.</p>

    <p>Politoed is arguably one of the best Pokemon in dealing with Heatran, as it summons rain, halving the power of Heatran's Fire STAB. It immediately puts Heatran at a disadvantage,[comma] as without its Fire STAB, Heatran is forced to rely on Earth Power and Hidden Power on offensive sets or status-inflicting moves on defensive sets. Starmie, another common offensive Water-type, does well against Heatran because it can use Rapid Spin to get rid of Stealth Rock and use Hydro Pump to blast away Heatran. Additionally, Starmie has the ability to OHKO or 2HKO most Rapid Spin blockers WHAT IS THIS in the metagame, so Heatran is often hard-pressed to retain momentum once Starmie switches in. Rotom-W does well in dealing with Heatran, though Choice-locked sets can often backfire against Heatran that carry Protect. For this reason, the best Rotom-W sets that work effectively against Heatran are those that can switch moves but attack with authority, such as the bulky attacker.</p>

    [gpstamp]1/1?[/gpstamp]
  13. Harsha

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    Thanks for the approval and GPs! I edited them into the SCMS and got em cached.
  14. Pocket

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    Thanks for your patience, Stone Cold. Here's Hydreigon for you. I will look at Ninetales, too, but I didn't want to make you wait any longer.

    Hydreigon

    follow this with "outside of the extremely rare Mixed Hydreigon with Outrage."
    Modest LO Hydreigon inflicts 60-71% from Draco Meteor, so I would personally treat it similarly to Specs Hydreigon.
    Calm Heatran cannot do much back, though; Heatran without Roar or HP Ice cannot break Hydreigon's Substitute, and those without Toxic or HP Ice needs to rely on Lava Plume's 30% burn to rack damage on EB / LO Hydreigon. I would probably clarify that Calm Heatran is a solid counter to choiced Hydreigon variants, but is solely a defensive pivot to a non-choiced all-attacking Hydreigon and can only manage to phaze out Sub variants with Roar.
    • I would remove the rain portion, since Sub Hydreigon still fucks over Heatran with Focus Blast as explained above; Fire Blast is also much more used than Surf.
    • "Heatran poses no threat" is a little too extreme and implies the reader being the Hydreigon user. "Heatran's capability in stopping Hydreigon has become limited," is more fitting, imo.
    Change 'one' to 'Hydreigon'
    Here you're obviously speaking from the eyes of a Hydreigon user rather than the Volcarona user. Copy and paste or modify the following post as much as you want to better match the tone of the CC section:

    "Volcarona is yet another threat that Hydreigon stand virtually no chance against, given that Volcarona did not take Stealth Rock damage. While it cannot switch directly into Hydreigon, Volcarona can come in while Hydreigon sets up a Substitute or after a Draco Meteor special fall and proceed to set up Quiver Dance. "
    • Notice that I removed the Scarf set since I don't think it added much to the paragraph (not saying that Scarf Hydreigon is uncommon, because it is the 2nd most used set outside of your Sub Hydreigon).
    Replace the red phrase with, "without a Substitute"
    • Specify Haxorus as Scarfed and move it into the list of Pokemon that are faster than Hydreigon. You can give it a special mention in the following sentence for its multi-hit Dual Chop to break through Substitute.
    • Mention Scizor and Mamoswine for their priority. Warn readers that Hydreigon has great bulk and must be weakened before being able to finish it off with Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, respectively.
    • Timid Hydreigon's Dragon Pulse does 110% min to 4 HP Cloyster; Hydreigon does not need to rely on SR damage nor Focus Miss.
    • You are writing from a Hydreigon user's perspective (calling Cloyster as 'troublesome'). Copy and paste / adapt the following to better match the tone:

      "Cloyster holding a Focus Sash can take an attack and set up Shell Smash. Cloyster could then even outspeed Scarf Hydreigon and even knock out Hydreigon behind a Substitute with a +2 Icicle Spear. Unfortunately, Cloyster's Ice Shard is too weak to overcome Hydreigon's stellar defense."
    This blurb is a little convoluted. You can make it more simpler and clearer like this:

    "Specially defensive Bulk Up Breloom can also serve as a check to Hydreigon for Rain teams, which halves Breloom's weakness to Fire Blast. This Breloom can survive a Draco Meteor from Scarf Hydreigon and retaliate with a super effective Drain Punch, which keeps Breloom in decent health. Breloom that are fully-invested in HP and Special Defense has a high chance of even stomaching a LO Draco Meteor from Timid Hydreigon, although a Modest LO Hydreigon would still knock it out most of the time."
  15. Matrulez25

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    im sorry but i find it strange that salamence gets no mention as a scizor counter with fire blast always OHK0 Scizor and a bullet punch is lucky to do 50% damage in addition my salamence with max speed ev's outspeed's scizor all the time
  16. Harsha

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    Taking Alakazam! This had a lot of the stuff it needed already, so I basically just emphasized current threats more (ScarfMoxieMence) and fleshed it out a bit.

    original (open)
    The best way to get by Alakazam is simply by exploiting its frailty, eliminating it before it does major damage. Attempting to outrun Alakazam is a challenge due to its base 120 Speed, so foes will typically resort to Choice Scarf and priority users, mainly Scizor and Mamoswine. Sets utilizing Focus Sash or Substitute, however, thwart such solutions, while bulkier opponents will struggle against sets with boosting moves or items. The most general counters are those that Alakazam can't 2HKO instantly; Jirachi is a common example of this, capable of setting up with Calm Mind or threatening with paralysis. Both Sableye and Spiritomb are immune to Psychic and Focus Blast, and only neutral to Shadow Ball, giving them time to KO Alakazam before being KOed themselves. Other examples of bulky and powerful Pokemon that could take down Alakazam include Scizor, Metagross, and Bronzong. If Alakazam lacks Psyshock, it obviously has trouble getting past special walls, though at this point, we've reached the bottom of the barrel. Generally speaking, if Alakazam can't immediately outspeed or eliminate a threat, you can expect the frail magician to go down quickly and quietly.


    <p>Alakazam generally has to rely on its high Special Attack and Speed to beat down most of its threats; consequently, Pokemon that can either sponge hits from Alakazam or outspeed it have a good chance of beating it down. Some dedicated specially-based walls, such as Blissey and Chansey, cannot effectively beat Alakazam due to Psyshock's effect of hitting the opponent's Defense instead of its Special Defense. However, walls that resist Alakazam's STAB and have the bulk to switch in to Life Orb-boosted Focus Blasts do well, especially Jirachi and to a lesser extent, Bronzong. Jirachi can threaten to set up a Calm Mind or paralyze either Alakazam or its teammate that switches in, and Bronzong can simply hit hard with Gyro Ball. Speaking of paralysis, it is a great way to take Alakazam out of commision. If one is able to paralyze Alakazam, it loses out on its biggest asset, its humungous base 120 Speed.</p>

    <p>Rather than walling Alakazam, the easiest way to combat it would be revenge killing it due to its frail defenses. While this may seem tough to accomplish, especially considering the high base Speed of Alakazam, most common Choice Scarf users outspeed it. Choice Scarf Rotom-W, Landorus, Terrakion, Latios, Hydreigon, Salamence, Politoed, and Jirachi will all outspeed and either OHKO or 2HKO Alakazam with ease. Additionally, using priority moves is an easy way to keep the moustached magician in check, as it can rarely survive a strong attack. Choice Band users such as Scizor, Dragonite, Metagross, and Azumarill can easily dispatch Alakazam, though they will not enjoy being hit themselves if Alakazam carries a Focus Sash.</p>

    <p>Pokemon that are immune to Alakazam's main coverage moves, Psyshock and Focus Blast, can usually take Alakazam down. Sableye and Spiritomb can both sponge a Shadow Ball and KO it back with their Dark-type STAB moves. Should Alakazam choose to carry Psychic instead of Psyshock, Blissey and Chansey, among other specially-based walls such as Gastrodon, will be able to sponge hits and recover off damage, eventually stalling Alakazam out, or simply KOing it. However, they cannot effectively beat Calm Mind sets, so one must be wary of accidentally sending out setup fodder.</p>
  17. jrrrrrrr

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    Any suggestions about something that needs fixing? I can't decide
  18. alexwolf

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    Jrrrrrr you could rewrite Espeon's checks and counters section, which is disgustingly small, and Mamoswine's c&c section is pretty shallow too...
  19. jrrrrrrr

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    Espeon current checks+counters

    new

    Espeon has a very shallow movepool and poor defenses, which makes countering it quite easy. Because Hidden Power is its only real coverage move, it can only deal with one threat per set. Scizor is an excellent counter to any Espeon not carrying Hidden Power Fire, as it can Pursuit to catch it switching out, or use STAB Bug-type attacks to OHKO it. It can also use Bullet Punch to nail Espeon before it can use Baton Pass or Reflect. Tyranitar can switch in on anything save the rare Hidden Power Fighting, and threaten a KO with Pursuit or Crunch. Bulkier Pursuiters such as Metagross can also deal with Espeon lacking the appropriate coverage move well.

    Steel-types are generally the best way of attacking Espeon as they resist its STAB and are a good catch-all for things it may Baton Pass out to. Jirachi is most notable for this because it can paraflinch both Espeon and anything else that may come in. Skarmory and Bronzong are also able to wall anything it can do, but again they must watch out for passing. Skarmory has the added bonus of being able to use a guaranteed Whirlwind on anything it passes to thanks to Sturdy.

    Since Espeon needs to switch in on an entry hazard user to be most effective, a good way to take it out is to feign a setup with a Pokemon such as Metagross or Heatran, and catch Espeon on the switch with a powerful Meteor Mash or Fire Blast. Forretress and Ferrothorn, two Pokemon who rarely do much besides set up entry hazards, can both smack Espeon with a high Base Power Gyro Ball. Skarmory's Brave Bird is another great way of luring Espeon out for a KO.

    Perish Song users like Politoed and Celebi are also great checks to Espeon since it avoids Magic Bounce, however, they can be worn down by boosted Stored Power attacks. Thanks to Espeon's Speed, many Choice Scarfers are able to end Espeon's run. Landorus, Terrakion, Rotom-W with Trick, and Tyranitar are all Choice Scarfers that can do a great job of KOing Espeon before it sets up.
  20. alexwolf

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    Seeing as this thread has been quite inactive, i will post another poke that needs some work. Hydreigon's c&c section is only 6 lines, which is one of the hardest pokes to wall in the entire tier...
  21. Harsha

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    Ninetales:

    <p>Because Ninetales is fairly frail, any Pokemon with a good offensive presence will be able to take care of it. All variants of Terrakion, Dragonite, Landorus, Salamence, and other highly offensive Pokemon can simply KO Ninetales immediately, though Dragonite must be wary of a Will-O-Wisp burn because it is slower than Ninetales. Focus Sash Dugtrio can trap Ninetales and eliminate it as long as Ninetales is not equipped with a Choice Scarf. Other excellent offensive Pokemon that beat down Ninetales include Flash Fire users. Heatran in particular resists every single attacking option that Ninetales carries aside from the rare Hidden Power Fighting, and it can simply set Stealth Rock up or proceed to wreak havoc with sun-boosted and STAB-boosted Fire Blast. Latias also does well against Ninetales due to its high Special Defense and access to Calm Mind. If Latias can attain enough boosts against Ninetales, it can proceed to sweep most teams with ease.</p>

    <p>Other weather inducers work very well in defeating Ninetales. Tyranitar has access to Stealth Rock which severely limits Ninetales's switch-in opportunities and Stone Edge which will OHKO most variants of Ninetales, while Politoed carries rain-boosted Water-type moves that will either severely cripple or outright KO Ninetales. While both of these Pokemon do not appreciate being burned by Will-O-Wisp, losing a weather starter to a burn is a better alternative to losing a weather war, so these Pokemon will often stay in against Ninetales and try to KO it quickly. While Hippowdon has a weaker Special Defense, it can OHKO Ninetales with a STAB Earthquake, lay Stealth Rock, and tank hits from Ninetales with ease if it assumes a specially defensive EV spread.</p>

    <p>Again, Stealth Rock is one of the best ways of countering Ninetales, as it costs Ninetales 25% of its health every time it switches. This is often crucial for Ninetales if the opponent carries a weather inducer, and most people will tend to play much more passively with Ninetales when Stealth Rock is down, effectively giving people playing against Ninetales more offensive opportunities.</p>

    <p>Specially defensive walls such as Chansey and Blissey can shrug off anything that Ninetales has to offer and KO Ninetales after using Seismic Toss several times. Bulky Water-types such as Jellicent, Tentacruel, and even Politoed will give Ninetales trouble even in the sun, though all must fear the rare Nasty Plot set. Specially defensive Heatran can also capitalize on Flash Fire boosts like the offensive variant, but instead of KOing Ninetales with Earth Power, it can Toxic stall the fox and do major damage to many sun teams that lack a proper Fire resist.</p>

    ---

    will try and get hydreigon done soon
  22. Doughboy

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    In lieu of alexwolf's bump, I would like to nominate Tentacruel for a revamp in the checks and counters section. For example, I would never switch in Metagross into Tentacruel as not only do you risk a chance for a burn from Scald, but you also take a hefty chunk of damage too (32-37% in the rain with 252 HP / 0 Sp. Def). It also lists Cobalion as a counter, who is hardly as relevant in OU and isn't that great of a switch either (Tenta also resists both of your STABS).
  23. Bossness

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    252Atk Choice Band -1 Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Salamence (Neutral): 39% - 46% (130 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    Hmm...Salamence switches into stealth rock to lose 25% of its hp while Scizor uses bullet punch. Scizor follows up with a second bullet punch to guarantee a KO. Bullet Punch has +1 priority so the statement you made about outspeeding is false. Should stealth rock be off the field, why would you switch in something like salamence into Scizor? Scizor may as well use U-turn which does 22% - 26%..
    Note, if using MoxieMence,
    252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Salamence (Neutral): 58% - 68% (195 - 229 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  24. alexwolf

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    @Harsha

    When talking about rare Hidden Powers on Ninetales that can hit Heatran super effective, you only mention HP Fight, where HP Ground also is a possibility, and is the only move that the most common Heatran would be afraid of anyway (HP Fight does shit to SpDefensive Heatran).

    Also you should mention Volcarona as a check/counter, as it can set-up all over Ninetales, healing with Morning Sun whenever needed, and even heal off the possible Toxic with Rest + Chesto, or simply block it with Sub.
  25. Conflict

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    And then you discover that Fireblast does ~50% upwards to Volcarona when you switch it in.....
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