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"Checks and Counters" Project

Discussion in 'Archives' started by twash, Feb 2, 2012.

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  1. Nachos

    Nachos Good player alert!
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    Current Scizor (open)
    Most defensive Steel-types are good counters to Scizor as long as they don't switch into a super effective Superpower or Brick Break. Skarmory is probably the best initial switch-in, as it is easily able to take any of Scizor's attacks and set up hazards. Furthermore, if Scizor acquires too many boosts, Skarmory can just phaze it away with Whirlwind. Heatran boasts the signature distinction of 4× resisting both of Scizor's STAB moves, while also being faster and threatening an easy OHKO with any Fire-type move. Bulky Water-types such as Jellicent and Rotom-W can safely wall Scizor, and can even cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. However, they must not become complacent, as Scizor may break through after garnering enough Swords Dance boosts. Rotom-W often carries Hidden Power Fire to surprise Ferrothorn, and can OHKO Scizor while laughing at Bullet Punch, which it doubly resists. Gyarados resists Bug-, Steel-, and Fighting-type attacks—in other words, the entirety of Scizor's offense—and can further reduce Scizor's Attack with Intimidate, batter Scizor with its powerful STAB Waterfall, or phaze it with Dragon Tail or Roar. While it has fallen from popularity in BW, Zapdos also resists Bug-, Steel-, and Fighting-type attacks, and can destroy Scizor with Heat Wave or STAB Thunderbolt. Many fast and powerful sweepers can shrug off a Bullet Punch and successfully revenge kill Scizor; this list includes but isn't limited to Infernape, Hidden Power Fire Starmie, and Victini.


    Jellicent is probably the best Scizor counter there is. It resists its STAB moves, isn't affected by Superpower, and can Will-O-Wisp Scizor, instantly crippling it. Take note though that Scizor is sometimes paired with a Pokemon that knows Volt Switch, usually Rotom-W. Should Scizor U-turn out on Jellicent, the corresponding Volt Switch Pokemon can come in and hit Jellicent hard. The same applies to the allergic-to-electricitySkarmory, who takes all of Scizor's moves well and can set up hazards or Whirlwind out Scizor should it gain a boost. Gyarados, with Intimidate and its typing, is also in the same boat. Should the rain be up, Tentacruel also makes an excellent counter to Scizor since it takes low damage from its STAB moves and heals back the HP lost that same turn. It can retaliate with Scald, hoping for the burn on Scizor. Gliscor is also a pretty good option for dealing with Scizor, just watch out for Swords Dancing Life Orb versions—they'll deal with Gliscor easily.

    Fire-types often cause Scizor to be clinically depressed as they easily kill Scizor. Heatran kicks things off by outspeeding and KOing Scizor with whatever Fire move you have on it; all Heatran fears is Scizor's Superpower, which it doesn't usually spam as many Pokemon in OU can set up on it. Volcarona can set up freely on any of Scizor's moves and cause trouble for the rest of the team. Infernape isn't bad either, but since it is more frail than a breadstick, it can't really switch in on Scizor's moves without taking a big chunk of damage. Magnezone, whilst it can't come in on Superpower, can trap Scizor and defeat it with Hidden Power Fire. If the opponent sees Magnezone in Team Preview though, they'll probably be U-turning like crazy, meaning Magnezone can only really trap Scizor after it's killed something with Bullet Punch or Pursuit. Rotom-W rounds this analysis off by outspeeding Scizor and either hitting it hard with any of its STAB moves or Hidden Power Fire, or crippling it with Will-O-Wisp. Even if Scizor is at +2 Attack, Bullet Punch will do little to Rotom-W. However, unless Rotom-W is physically bulky, a Choice Band U-turn from Scizor will hurt a lot.

    This has been -- Grammar Checked.
  2. WhiteMagic

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    I think that it's worth mentioning Salamence and Dragonite, as they both resist all of Scizor's moves, and both Pokemon normally carry a Fire-type move, normally being Fire Punch, Fire Blast or Flamethrower.
  3. BTzz

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    ^Those two don't resist Bullet Punch sadly

    Also Nachos, perhaps you could mention Gyarados' Intimidate and Volcarona's Flame Body?
  4. alexwolf

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    Can i rewrite the Checks and Counters sections of Terakion? It misses quite a few checks and counters, has some completely irrelevant pokes like Golurk, and is pretty small imo.

    If you are not sure about me making it, i can post it here, and if you find it good enough, GP check it and upload it, or else just reject it...
  5. Steven Snype

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    add/replace with
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    Scizor C&C done (open)

    Jellicent is probably the best Scizor counter there is. It resists its STAB moves, isn't affected by Superpower, and can Will-O-Wisp Scizor, instantly crippling it. Take note though that Scizor is sometimes paired with a Pokemon that knows Volt Switch, usually Rotom-W. Should Scizor U-turn out on Jellicent, the corresponding Volt Switch Pokemon can come in and hit Jellicent hard. The same applies to the allergic-to-electricity Skarmory, who takes all of Scizor's moves well and can set up hazards or Whirlwind out Scizor should it gain a boost. Gyarados is also in the same boat. Should the rain be up, Tentacruel also makes an excellent to Scizor since it takes low damage from its STAB moves and heals back the HP lost that same turn. It can retaliate with Scald, hoping for the burn on Scizor. Gliscor is also a pretty good option for dealing with Scizor, just watch out for Swords Dancing Life Orb versions—they'll deal with Gliscor easily.

    Fire-types often cause Scizor to be clinically depressed as they easily kill Scizor. Heatran kicks things off by resisting everything but Superpower and outspeeding and KOing Scizor with whatever Fire move you have on it; all Heatran fears is Scizor's Superpower, which it doesn't usually spam as many Pokemon in OU can set up on it., Heatran makes a good answer to Scizor. Volcarona can set up freely on all of Scizor's moves and cause trouble for the rest of the team. Infernape isn't bad either, but since it is more frail than a breadstick, it can't really switch in on Scizor's moves without taking a big chunk of damage. Magnezone, whilst it can't come in on Superpower, can trap Scizor and defeat it with Hidden Power Fire. If the opponent sees Magnezone in Team Preview though, they'll probably be U-turning like crazy, meaning Magnezone can only really trap Scizor after it's killed something with Bullet Punch or Pursuit. Rotom-W rounds this analysis off by outspeeding Scizor, hitting it hard with any of its STAB moves or Hidden Power Fire, and crippling it with Will-O-Wisp. Even if Scizor is at +2 Attack, Bullet Punch will do little to Rotom-W. It should be mentioned that However, unless Rotom-W is physically bulky, a Choice Band U-turn from Scizor will hurt a lot.



    [​IMG]
    GP Approved
  6. Frog

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    Can a Normal user do these? If I can, I'd love to fix scrafty's which it horrible. If not, make that one some sort of a priority!
  7. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
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    We will definitely get to Terrakion and Scrafty, thanks for the heads up, alexwolf and Frog!
  8. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
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    Nah, this is for hand picked members. I'm sure they will with your notification, though.

    EDIT: ninja'd by Pocket
  9. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    I think we should wait on Scrafty's because it is probably dropping to UU within a couple weeks, and it will have to get a full new analysis anyways. It's not really high on the priority list.

    I'll do Terrakion soonish though, gonna check if there's a thread up first.

    edit- Jabba said he would update his Terrakion analysis. I'll look for something else. Taking suggestions.

    edit2- I'm updating Gengar as it only names 5 pokemon lol. It'll be up soonish

    edit3- I'm also updating Gengar's Other Options section. Seriously that's empty
  10. jrrrrrrr

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    Gengar

    current other options

    Show Hide
    Choice Scarf is a viable set to use thanks to Gengar's great set of immunities and high Special Attack stat. However, Gengar is merely a one-trick pony for revenge killing since its unimpressive defensive stats and weakness to Pursuit means it wouldn't last very long otherwise. With the amount of Tyranitar and Scizor in the metagame, it's very difficult to revenge kill efficiently. Gengar can use Explosion over Substitute on the Substitute + 3 Attacks set to provide coverage against dedicated special walls. However, the effectiveness of that option has been significantly reduced in BW with the unfortunate downgrade of Explosion. Gengar is better off using Substitute to shield itself from common Pursuit users and priority moves.

    With such a diverse movepool, Gengar can easily catch typical counters off-guard with the appropriate move. Gengar has access to both Hypnosis and Will-O-Wisp; the former can sleep a counter and effectively remove it from the battle, while the latter can be used to spread burn status on physical counters, particularly Tyranitar and Scizor. It's important to note the aforementioned moves' shaky accuracy and one miss can be fatal due to Gengar's atrocious defensive stats. Gengar is therefore better off firing attacks than spreading status around. Gengar can also use Sludge Bomb for an alternative STAB move, but it's usually an underwhelming choice due to its poor type coverage.


    new other options

    With such a diverse movepool, Gengar can easily catch any of its counters off-guard with the appropriate move. Gengar has access to both Hypnosis and Will-O-Wisp; the former can sleep a counter and effectively remove it from the battle, while the latter can be used to spread burn status on physical counters, particularly Tyranitar, Scizor and Jirachi. Gengar can also get around Blissey, its best counter, with a combination of Mean Look, Perish Song and Hypnosis. It can also use Taunt to prevent Blissey from healing. It's important to note the aforementioned moves' shaky accuracy, and that one miss or misprediction can be fatal due to Gengar's atrocious defensive stats. Gengar is therefore better off firing attacks than spreading status around.

    Gengar can also pull off a myriad of other sets. The most effective set not listed here would have to be a Choice Scarf set, a great revenge killer. However, its weakness to Pursuit costs it a lot of usage. Gengar can also use Substitute and Focus Punch to take care of dedicated special walls like Blissey and Heatran if your team is in need of a great lure. You can combine Counter and Focus Sash for a real surprising but effective set. Thanks to Gengar's terrible defenses, pretty much any attack will OHKO you, allowing you to do huge amounts of damage back with Counter. If you want to get really fancy, use Destiny Bond on the same set to get a bonus KO. Gengar's physical movepool is actually really good, unfortunately its Attack stat is not, so a completely physical set is not advised.

    In addition to the moves listed on the sets, Gengar has quite a few great attacking options to spare. Thunderbolt is a great attack in general and helps you counter Skarmory. Thunder is an option if you're using a rain team, since Gengar does have a 4x resistance against Grass. Hidden Power Ice can be used on any set to check Dragonite, Landorus and Salamence. Hidden Power Fire serves as a great lure to the omnipresent Scizor and Ferrothorn. Sludge Bomb hits Grass-types harder but that's about it. Energy Ball and Giga Drain are 100% accurate deterrents to Politoed and Tyranitar, but neither come close to OHKOing them. Grass-type moves would also help you get around Gastrodon who does surprisingly well against Gengar. Explosion got nerfed in the fifth generation but it can still catch Blissey by surprise. If your team is loaded with status inflictors such as Toxic Spikes, both Hex and Venoshock suddenly become viable attacks. Dark Pulse isn't a bad attack but Shadow Ball gets STAB and better neutral coverage. Clear Smog and Perish Song aren't great but they're Gengar's only phazing options. Gengar can use its 3 immunities and many resistances to set up Trick Room, but there are better options for this since it is both fast and frail. Finally, Grudge can be an interesting way to mess with things like Terrakion by draining all of its Stone Edges, but moves like Destiny Bond and Disable are better for this.

    current checks&counters

    Show Hide
    Gengar's pool of counters in the new generation has reduced slightly with the fresh accuracy boost of Disable, making it a difficult threat to beat directly. The best way to counter Gengar is to exploit its weak defenses and prevent it from switching in easily or setting up Substitute. If Gengar happens to switch in easily, Tyranitar with Chople Berry can beat Gengar provided it comes in on Shadow Ball; otherwise, it is going to get 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Specially defensive Jirachi can check Gengar if it is packing Iron Head and another attacking move that can hit Gengar neutrally. Blissey is a safe answer to the Substitute + 3 Attacks set, and the Pain Split set to a lesser extent. However, the only way Blissey can beat it is by strategically stalling out Gengar's Focus Blast PP with Wish and Protect. Specially defensive Scizor with Pursuit and Bullet Punch can trouble Gengar that lack Hidden Power Fire. Gengar is unable to Disable either of Scizor's moves, while the Pain Split set has trouble dealing significant damage with Focus Blast. Specially defensive Spiritomb is able to withstand any hit easily and threaten Gengar with Pursuit, Shadow Sneak, or Sucker Punch.


    new checks&counters

    Gengar is one of the few Pokemon with both a great movepool and the stats to abuse it, which is why it's been OU since the first generation. With that said, there are still a good number of ways to get around Gengar should you encounter one. The easiest way is to use strong priority. Scizor's Bullet Punch is a clean OHKO on Gengar. Any Sucker Punch user can also score a clean OHKO against Gengar, although you must watch out for Substitute and Will-O-Wisp. Even strong neutral priority like Mamoswine's Ice Shard or Azumarill's Aqua Jet does enough to force Gengar out or kill it straight up. The second best way to attack a Gengar is with a strong user of Pursuit. Scizor, Metagross and Tyranitar can take Gengar's attacks and OHKO with Pursuit even if Gengar doesn't switch. Weavile and Heracross aren't seen much in OU but they can also checkmate Gengar with Pursuit.

    Gengar's defenses are so poor that any attack it doesn't resist will 3HKO it at worst. For example, Landorus can survive a Shadow Ball and KO with Stone Edge. Blissey's Ice Beam or Flamethrower can 3HKO Gengar, but it must watch out for sets like Pain Split, Disable and Destiny Bond. Pokemon like Celebi and Jirachi can survive its attacks and OHKO with Psychic. Conkledurr usually has max HP to score an OHKO with Payback, and it can also mess with Disable sets by using Mach Punch. Tentacruel only cares about Thunderbolt, but it can use Scald and shrug off Shadow Ball with its high Special Defense. That is the general formula for directly countering Gengar, decent Special Defense and a solid neutral or super effective hit. Bulky Water-types like Politoed, Vaporeon and the aforementioned Tentacruel fit this bill.

    Checking Gengar is much easier than directly countering it. Almost every Choice Scarf user in OU has a move that will outspeed and OHKO Gengar. This includes, but is not limited to: Politoed, Latios, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Heatran, Haxorus and Infernape. Pokemon that are naturally faster than Gengar can also do a great job, such as Starmie, Tornadus, Azelf and Jolteon. Of course, all of these pokemon have incredible difficulty finding a chance to switch in. Gyarados, Salamence and Dragonite can set up a Dragon Dance or two on Gengar if they've invested in HP. Volcorona can set up Quiver Dances if Stealth Rock is not up.
  11. Setsuna

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    Good job so far on this, guys. Love the commitment.
  12. kitsteel

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    Hi, sorry if this has been mentioned already,

    On the Gliscor checks and counters there is no mention of shell smash cloyster which, without the boost from shell smash, will 4x1hko max def gliscor with icicle spear, but, more importantly, can take a +2 eq or an unboosted flying gem boosted acrobatics and set up, that's calculated with white herb, not life orb but still..

    +2 flying gem acrobatics will still 1hko and +2eq has a chance to 1hko with stealth rock dmg but I'd say cloyster still makes a viable counter to the acrobat build and with other builds, although taunt might prevent a shell smash, icicle spear can ko without boosts.

    I might have missed something, but though it might be relevant...
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
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    A tardy response to jrrrrrrr's Gengar update:

    Other Options
    • I feel like you went a little overboard with this. With the nerf, Explosion is not worthy of a mention, especially with Gengar luring in Steel- and Tyranitar like a magnet.
    • Energy Ball / Giga Drain is not really for TTar, but more for Gastrodon who would otherwise wall Gengar. I guess it is also useful for hitting Politoed harder.
    • You could mention Thunder alongside Thunderbolt for a powerful coverage move in the rain.
    • Wisp should have a bigger emphasis in its ability to cripple Gengar's usual counters, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Jirachi, rendering them to be set-up bait for Gengar's offensive partners.

    Checks and Counters
    • You should note that Sucker Punch is an unreliable priority against Gengar, since Gengar can easily put up a Substitute.
    • For Conkeldurr and Tentacruel, mention that they can screw over Disable Gengar by using Mach Punch or Protect to prevent Gengar from Disable-ing Payback or Scald
    • Bulky Water-types in general are good options against Gengar, as they can tank a Shadow Ball rather effortlessly. Such Pokemon include Gastrodon, Politoed, Vaporeon, and aforementioned Tentacruel.
    • I would add Tornadus in a list of Pokemon that is faster than Gengar.
  14. jrrrrrrr

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    ok pocket i added your changes
  15. Calm Pokemaster

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    Doing Gengar, since Pocket posted in the GP Queue asking for it to be GPed.

    Other Options (open)

    With such a diverse movepool, Gengar can easily catch any of its counters off-guard with the appropriate move. It has access to both Hypnosis and Will-O-Wisp; the former can sleep a counter and effectively remove it from the battle, while the latter can be used to spread burn status on physical counters, particularly Tyranitar, Scizor, and Jirachi. Gengar can also get around Blissey, its best counter, with a combination of Mean Look, Perish Song, and Hypnosis, also preventing Blissey from healing or using Thunder Wave with Taunt It can also use Taunt to prevent Blissey from healing. It's important to note the aforementioned moves' shaky accuracy, and that one miss or misprediction can be fatal due to Gengar's atrocious defensive stats. Gengar is therefore better off firing attacks than spreading status around.

    Gengar can also pull off a myriad of other sets. The most effective set not listed here would have to be a Choice Scarf set, a great revenge killer. However, its weakness to Pursuit costs it a lot of usage. Gengar can also use Substitute and Focus Punch to take care of dedicated special walls like Blissey and Heatran if your team is in need of a great lure. You can combine Counter and Focus Sash for a real surprising but effective set. Thanks to Gengar's terrible defenses, pretty much any attack will OHKO you it, allowing you it to do huge amounts of damage back with Counter. If you want to get really fancy, use Destiny Bond on the same set to get a bonus KO. Gengar's physical movepool is actually really good, unfortunately but its Attack stat is not, so a completely physical set is not advised.

    In addition to the moves listed on the sets, Gengar has quite a few great attacking options to spare. Thunderbolt is a great attack in general and helps you counter Skarmory. Thunder is an option if you're using a rain team, since Gengar does have a 4x resistance against to Grass-type attacks. Hidden Power Ice can be used on any set to check Dragonite, Landorus, and Salamence. Hidden Power Fire serves as a great lure to the omnipresent Scizor and Ferrothorn. Sludge Bomb hits Grass-types harder, but that's about it it does little else. Energy Ball and Giga Drain are 100% accurate deterrents to Politoed and Tyranitar, but neither comes close to OHKOing them. Grass-type moves would also help you get around Gastrodon who does surprisingly well against Gengar. Explosion got nerfed in the fifth generation, but it can still catch Blissey by surprise. If your team is loaded with status inflictors inducers such as Toxic Spikes users, both Hex and Venoshock suddenly become viable attacks. Dark Pulse isn't a bad attack, but Shadow Ball gets STAB and better neutral coverage. Clear Smog and Perish Song aren't exactly great, but they're Gengar's only phazing options. Gengar can use its 3 immunities and many resistances to set up Trick Room, but there are better options for this since it is both fast and frail. Finally, Grudge can be an interesting way to mess with things like Terrakion by draining all of the PP of its Stone Edges, but moves like Destiny Bond and Disable are better for this.


    Checks and Counters (open)

    Gengar is one of the few Pokemon with both a great movepool and the stats to abuse it, which is why it's been OU since the first generation. With that said, there are still a good number of ways to get around Gengar should you encounter one. The easiest way is to use strong priority; Scizor's Bullet Punch is a clean OHKO on Gengar. Any Sucker Punch user can also score an clean OHKO against Gengar, although you must watch out for Substitute and Will-O-Wisp. Even strong neutral priority like Mamoswine's Ice Shard or Azumarill's Aqua Jet does enough to force Gengar out or kill it straight up. The second best way to attack a Gengar is with a strong user of Pursuit user. Scizor, Metagross, and Tyranitar can take Gengar's attacks and OHKO with Pursuit even if Gengar doesn't switch. Weavile and Heracross aren't seen much in OU, but they can also checkmate Gengar with Pursuit.

    Gengar's defenses are so poor that any attack it doesn't resist will 3HKO it at worst. For example, Landorus can survive a Shadow Ball and KO with Stone Edge. Blissey's Ice Beam or Flamethrower can 3HKO Gengar, but it must watch out for sets like with Pain Split, Disable, and Destiny Bond. Pokemon like Celebi and Jirachi can survive its attacks and OHKO with Psychic as well. Conkledurr usually has maximum investment in HP to score an OHKO with Payback, and it can also mess with Disable sets by using Mach Punch. Tentacruel only cares about Thunderbolt, but it can use Scald and shrug off Shadow Ball with its high Special Defense. That is the general formula for directly countering Gengar: decent Special Defense and a solid neutral or super effective hit. Bulky Water-types like Politoed, Vaporeon and the aforementioned Tentacruel fit this bill.

    Checking Gengar is much easier than directly countering it. Almost every Choice Scarf user in OU has a move that will can outspeed and OHKO Gengar. This includes, but is not limited to: Politoed, Latios, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Heatran, Haxorus, and Infernape. Pokemon that are naturally faster than Gengar can also do a great job, such as Starmie, Tornadus, Azelf and Jolteon. Of course, all of these Pokemon have incredible difficulty finding a chance to switch in. Gyarados, Salamence, and Dragonite can set up a Dragon Dance or two on Gengar if they've invested in HP. Volcorona too can set up Quiver Dances if Stealth Rock is not up.


    [​IMG]

    GP Approved
  16. Nachos

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    Jabba's original C&C section was short and sweet, I've reworded it a bit and added a few more checks.

    Current Terrakion (open)
    Gliscor and Slowbro are generally your worst enemies. Unless you're using them to counter Terrakion...then they're probably your best friends. The Swords Dance and Choice Band sets can put huge dents into the both of them, and sometimes straight-up beat them—though oftentimes you'll have to rely on hitting two Stone Edges in a row. That's one of the most frustrating things about countering Terrakion: because it has great STABs and hits so hard, even its "counters" have trouble handling it. Jellicent and Reuniclus can also handle Terrakion to a slight degree. Hippowdon counters Terrakion about as well as Gliscor does and has Slack Off to stick around longer.

    If you want to reach down into UU, you can actually find a couple Pokemon that shut down Terrakion better than anything in OU can. Nidoqueen and Golurk are just about full stops to Terrakion. Claydol shuts down most Terrakion, but make sure you don't get caught on the wrong end of a Choice Band-boosted X-Scissor.

    Terrakion can be hard to check because of its great Speed. Scizor and Azumarill are two Choice Band users that can stop any Terrakion set dead in its tracks with their STAB priority attacks. Latios and Latias both outpace Terrakion before a Rock Polish and threaten an OHKO with Psyshock.


    If there was an award in OU for "most difficult Pokemon to switch into," here's your guy. Slowbro is probably the best check you'll find in OU, although a Stone Edge boosted by a Choice Band or a Swords Dance boost will hit like a truck. Gliscor is also a good check, though it'll be taking a ton from Stone Edge from those sets. Mew, Reuniclus and Jellicent also fall into the similar category. There is light at the end of the tunnel though; Terrakion needs to hit two consecutive Stone Edges to KO any of these Pokemon. Hippowdon can also tank a hit and Slack Off. You may be inclined to use Skarmory as your Terrakion counter, but despite its good Defense, Skarmory is ravaged by a Close Combat from the Choice Band or Swords Dance and the Swords Dance sets, allowing it to only deal with Terrakion that lack Attack boosts.

    Terrakion can be hard to check because of its great Speed. Scizor and Azumarill are two Choice Band users that can stop any Terrakion set dead in its tracks with their STAB priority attacks. Infernape can also do a good chunk of damage with Mach Punch; Conkeldurr can do the same and also, when at high health, can survive a non-boosted Close Combat and go for the OHKO with Drain Punch after Stealth Rock. Latios and Tornadus can outspeed and hit it hard with Psyshock or Hurricane respectively. Gengar and Starmie can smash it with Focus Blast and Hydro Pump, whilst Espeon can hit it hard with Psychic. Gengar deserves a special mention for being able to Disable Stone Edge, crippling Terrakion instantly. Dugtrio does what he does best and can trap Terrakion with Earthquake. Wobbuffet knocks Choiced versions of Terrakion out of the park and will make them think twice before spamming Close Combat. Choice Scarf users such as Rotom-W, Landorus and other Terrakion are also fantastic checks.

    Ironically, Terrakion's best counters litter the lower tiers. Examples being Golurk, Nidoqueen, Claydol and Tangrowth. If you're feeling desperate, then one of these is your best bet.

    --

    Opinions?
  17. Pocket

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    Good stuff, Nachos. For the blurb on Skarmory, you should probably elaborate that it is a good check to Scarf Terrakion and Air Balloon Terrakion without any boosts.

    I would add to Conkeldurr, "at high health, Conkeldurr can survive a non-boosted Close Combat and go for the OHKO with Drain Punch (after Rocks)"

    You could also add Gengar, Starmie, and Espeon to the list of checks that are naturally faster than Terrakion. Wobbuffet is excellent for eliminating Scarf Terrakion.
  18. Nachos

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    Added Pocket's changes, I can't believe I forgot about Wobbuffet when I made a post on it being awesome in OU just like a week ago lol.

    If there's no other stuff to be added, then this can be GP'd.
  19. jrrrrrrr

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    Nachos, that looks good, I would just change

    To: "or Hurricane respectively" because there's no way in hell I'm relying on Focus Miss to check Terrakion. Hurricane is still an easy OHKO and has the same or better accuracy, unless in the sun
  20. Steven Snype

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    add/replace with
    remove
    comments



    done (open)


    If there was an award in OU for "most difficult Pokemon to switch into," here's your guy. Slowbro is probably the best check you'll find in OU, although a Stone Edge boosted by a Choice Band or a Swords Dance boost will hit like a truck. Gliscor is also a good check, though it'll be taking a ton from Stone Edge from those respective sets. Also falling into this category are Mew, Reuniclus and Jellicent also fall into the similar category.. There is light at the end of the tunnel though; Terrakion needs to achieve the daunting task of hit two consecutive Stone Edges in a row to score a KO on any of these Pokemon. Hippowdon can also tank a hit and Slack Off. You may be inclined to use Skarmory as your Terrakion counter, but despite its good Defense, Skarmory is ravaged by a Close Combat from either the Choice Band and the Swords Dance sets, allowing it to only deal with Terrakion that lack Attack boosts.

    Terrakion can be hard to check because of its great Speed. Scizor and Azumarill are two Choice Band users that can stop any Terrakion set dead in its tracks with their STAB priority attacks. Infernape can also do a good chunk of damage with Mach Punch; Conkeldurr can do the same and also, when at high health, can survive a non-boosted Close Combat and go for the OHKO with Drain Punch after Stealth Rock. Latios and Tornadus can outspeed and hit it hard with Psyshock or Hurricane respectively. Gengar and Starmie can smash it with Focus Blast and Hydro Pump, whilst Espeon can hit it hard with Psychic. Gengar deserves a special mention for being able to Disable Stone Edge, crippling Terrakion instantly. Dugtrio does what he does best and can trap Terrakion with Earthquake. Wobbuffet knocks Choiced versions of Terrakion out of the park and will make them think twice before spamming Close Combat. Choice Scarf users such as Rotom-W, Landorus and other Terrakion are also fantastic checks.

    Ironically, Terrakion's best counters litter the lower tiers. Examples being Golurk, Nidoqueen, Claydol and Tangrowth. If you're feeling desperate, then one of these is your best bet.


    [​IMG]
  21. Nachos

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    This has been GP'd and uploaded. If someone could cache it, that'd be cool.
  22. Stone_Cold

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    Twash has given me the okay to participate in this project due to the fact that he doesn't play much OU anymore and needs people who have extensive knowledge.

    Reserving Breloom for now.

    Original Analysis (open)
    When it comes to Breloom counters, you just can't beat Gliscor. Its massive base 125 Defense and resistance to Fighting-type attacks allows it to shrug off Focus Punches with ease. Poison Heal just compounds the issue, as it renders Gliscor immune to Spore, and its passive healing also counteracts Leech Seed's effect. On top of that, Gliscor tends to use its Flying-type STABs more often, rather than going with mono-Ground coverage. Put all these factors together, and you've got the perfect Pokemon to counter Breloom.

    Celebi is the other major counter to Breloom, as it has excellent physical defense and resistance to both of Breloom's STABs. It also has Recover, allowing it to effortlessly heal off any damage that it takes from Breloom's attacks. Its Grass typing also makes it immune to Leech Seed, which negates the major threat of Breloom's primary set. Additionally, Natural Cure completely nullifies Spore, allowing Celebi to essentially switch in at any time for free. Celebi also carries Psychic or Hidden Power Fire on most of its sets, allowing it to easily dispatch Breloom.

    There are, of course, some other notable problem Pokemon for Breloom. Ghost-types can be troublesome, as they are immune to Focus Punch and usually either faster or extremely bulky. Gengar is especially nasty, as it resists Seed Bomb and can also use Disable to remove Breloom's access to its coverage move. Chandelure also resists Seed Bomb due to its Fire typing, though it has to watch out for Stone Edge on the offensive set. Another big problem for Breloom is Pokemon that pack multi-hit moves. Haxorus is the most prevalent, as it can break Breloom's Substitute with the first hit of Dual Chop and then prevent the Focus Punch with the second hit. On top of that, Haxorus resists Seed Bomb, the move of choice for the offensive SubPunch set, and has enough defense to take a Stone Edge or Facade if need be. Mamoswine and Cloyster can do the same with Icicle Spear, but they risk getting caught by a Seed Bomb, and are also both weak to Focus Punch or Superpower as well.



    With Bulk Up Breloom being the standard set used in BW Overused, Gliscor which was once considered a huge threat to Breloom is no longer the nefarious Pokemon to Breloom it used to be. However, against SubPunch Breloom, Gliscor still reigns supreme. Acrobatics Gliscor is also the bane to Breloom but is only used in cojunction with Tyranitar due to the fact that the objective is to take control of Sub + Sand Veil. The most surefire counter to Breloom is Skarmory. Skarmory with Brave Bird and its solid defense stops Bulk Up Breloom in its tracks and makes sure it takes minimal damage. At +2 Breloom isn’t even doing 50% to standard Skarmory and is OHKO’s by Brave Bird which is why even with Spore, Skarmory is such a huge threat. To have a decent shot against Skarmory, you in fact need the SubPunch set with max attack. Celebi is the other major counter to Breloom, as it has excellent physical defense and resists both of Breloom's STABs. It also has Recover, allowing it to effortlessly heal off any damage that it takes from Breloom's attacks. Additionally, Natural Cure completely nullifies Spore, allowing Celebi to essentially switch in at any time for free. Celebi also carries Psychic or Hidden Power Fire on most of its sets, allowing it to easily dispatch Breloom.

    There is, of course, some other notable problem Pokemon for Breloom. Mew immediately comes to mind as the majority are the defensive variants. Make sure that if you try and take Mew on with Breloom, you at least have +1 and no opposing Pokemon asleep or else it can KO you in two hits with Ice Beam/Psychic. Dragonite is yet another common Pokemon that has the potential to completely stop Breloom in its tracks. The rain variant with Hurricane gives Breloom no chance of winning; however, Breloom can potentially beat the Lum Berry Dragon Dance set given you had Bulk Up boosts prior, but that normally is not the case so try to steer clear and use other methods to defeat Dragonite. Reuniclus is in the same boat. The Trick Room variant is beatable; however, with a low sleep roll Breloom is done for. The Calm Mind variant offers almost no way of beating it, thus steer clear. In addition, Ghost-types can be troublesome to Breloom, as they are immune to Focus Punch and usually either faster or extremely bulky. Gengar is especially nasty, as it resists Seed Bomb and can also use Disable to remove Breloom's access to its coverage move. Chandelure also resists Seed Bomb due to its Fire typing, though it has to watch out for Stone Edge on the offensive set. Another big problem for Breloom are Pokemon that pack multi-hit moves. Haxorus is the most prevalent; as it can break Breloom's Substitute with the first hit of Dual Chop and then prevent the Focus Punch with the second hit. On top of that, Haxorus resists Seed Bomb, the move of choice for the offensive SubPunch set, and has enough defense to take a Stone Edge or Facade if need be. Mamoswine and Cloyster can do the same with Icicle Spear, but they risk getting caught by a Seed Bomb, and are also both weak to Focus Punch or Superpower as well. Latios and Latias also take care of Breloom without a problem. Latias can simply recover and set up on Breloom without worrying about the damage dealt while Latios can OHKO even Bulk Up Breloom with Draco Meteor and Psyshock.


    I understand it's a little long; however, I tried to make it a point to include each common OU threat and so it's a little extensive. I kept a few parts of the original checks and counters, however I will be glad to try and shorten it further if deemed necessary.
  23. HoiPolloi

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    @Stone Cold, I don't think it's too long. The counter section is the most important part of an analysis in my opinion, so going that much into detail is just right. Also i don't see anything that could be removed from it.
  24. Nachos

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    Yeah Stone, that's pretty good. I'd probably make a mention of Dragonite though, it only needs to watch out for Stone Edge and doesn't really fear Spore if it's carrying a Lum Berry and can set up on it. You should give Reuniclus a quick mention too, possibly Volcarona as it can set up if something else is asleep.

    The last line isn't really needed, as we're talking about what beats Breloom, not advice on how to use it. Everything else is ok.
  25. Stone_Cold

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    Yeah, thanks i'll be sure to add that Nachos. Ive beaten a few Dragonites with Loom so it's not IMPOSSIBLE to win. Although the Hurricane set completely wrecks it. xD Volc and Reu are solid mentions. I kept some of the old article, and figured they would be mentioned xD. I had a much extended version but trimmed it down a lot haha.

    I'll edit it in soon Nachos, ty!

    edit: Alright I believe it is ready to be GP'd.
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