Is pain split really worth it to get the enemy Pokemon low-ish over a more reliable recovery like synthesis or leech seed? Chesnaught hits hard either way.What about this:
Chesnaught@Leftovers
EVs: 252 Def, 252 HP, 4 Atk
Nature: Adamant
Moves:
Seed Bomb
Hammer Arm
Spiky Sheild
Pain Split
Now this Physical defensive Chesnaught can easily take a hit or two and then recover using Pain Split. Thats the thought anyways. I have used this to take Outrage from a Garchomp and Spiky Sheild works quite well for that, damaging the Garchomp as it attacks. And the Chesnaught should be able to do some damage too thanks to its nature.
Again, I really have to give it up to the Subseed set, it's truly amazing. When it gains momentum, it will fuck over the enemy team, even if it doesn't actually take out a mon.I've been using a Subseed set. It can't beat or even harm any single defogger, it doesn't have the speed or capability to go an offensive route, and Subseed, when I can get a sub up that the opponent can't break in one shot (lol Aegislash,) allows Chesnaught to beat stuff it really has no business beating. It also makes Mega Tyranitar and Mega Gyarodos easier to handle, because they can both have Ice coverage, but once you get seeds up and have enough health to get a sub up they're done.
Yeah Sub is pretty good, and people should use it more. But, after reading this ridiculously long but also really good post by Ajwf, I don't think Sub and Shield are good on the same set. Chesnaught has a really expansive offensive movepool, so instead of just stalling stuff out, you can hit them.Again, I really have to give it up to the Subseed set, it's truly amazing. When it gains momentum, it will fuck over the enemy team, even if it doesn't actually take out a mon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131681772
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131564073
Two rather hilarious examples, though admititley not the best, as my opponents made ludicrously bad moves in response, but it still kicked ass.
Coverage and the Substitute
Chesnaught has access to multiple coverage attacks. For this section, we'll also be considering his second stab, Grass, coverage due to the lack of help grass actually provides. The only real note I'll give grass it the ability to solve Quagsire, Keldeo and Azumarill much harder, but only works on switches or if they lock wrong for the latter two. With Earthquake, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Dragon Claw, Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb, Poison Jab, Gyro Ball and Payback, Chesnaught has a great deal of coverage. But what should we use to help out with fight?
My personal preference is Earthquake. This means that any Aegi short of Balloon is crushed instantly and can't sub-toxic. This also helps hit grounded electrics like Raikou and Manectric on switches as well as SE hits on grounded poisons (tentacruel, Venusaur, and Nidos coming in or locked into bad moves). You do completely lose Lati@s, Gyarados, Dragonite and Landorus.
Stone Edge/Rock Slide are other good options, voiding the loss of Dragonite and Gyarados, and allowing Chesnaught behind a sub to beat Talonflame and Pinsir-mega, which is very cool. It's a much more offensive option, not offering as much for a defensive pivot but works very well with a sub set. You do have to stall out Aegi with leech seed, though.
Shadow Claw is a pretty decent option. While you have to worry about Aegislash's King Shield, you can hit Aegi, Gengar, Alakazam, Lati@s, Espeon hard, all of which can provide Chesnaught hard. This set MUST have a substitute as most of these will have Psychic. For Alakazam, Espeon and Latios, it will take two hits to kill them. However, Latios needs draco meteor to have a chance to KO (it won't have psychic). Psyshock is only a 2hko. Alakazam sporting Psyshock over Psychic will lose as he can only just deal over 50% with Psyshock. The best part is a sub will scout this for you.
The last attack worthy of real note is Poison Jab. Allowing you to hit everything in OU outside of Landorus, Aegislash and Gliscor for neutral damage when paired with hammer arm, Poison jab is a fantastic coverage move. It shouldn't be used with substitute as the set does kind of want to take Sylveon on as it switches in, and you'd be sacrificing Hit Points at that point.
I like it as well, but Drain Punch has relatively low BP compared to Hammer Arm. One of the things I like about C-Naught is its ability to retaliate against junk with high BP moves like H-Arm and Wood Hammer. Drain Punch may put Chesnaught dangerously close to the "too passive" trap ala Chansey and my bottom bitch Alo.I can see Leech Seed/Drain Punch/SS and leftovers recovery being very annoying on stallier teams. I LOVE IT!
Hammer Arm isn't particularly powerful in the first place, and it comes with that chance to miss (and it lowers your speed, not that important with 60ish base speed but it's something.) Drain Punch's passive healing is very valuable, I doubt most sets would be better off running Hammer Arm.I like it as well, but Drain Punch has relatively low BP compared to Hammer Arm. One of the things I like about C-Naught is its ability to retaliate against junk with high BP moves like H-Arm and Wood Hammer. Drain Punch may put Chesnaught dangerously close to the "too passive" trap ala Chansey and my bottom bitch Alo.
Doesn't it also get superpower?I like it as well, but Drain Punch has relatively low BP compared to Hammer Arm. One of the things I like about C-Naught is its ability to retaliate against junk with high BP moves like H-Arm and Wood Hammer. Drain Punch may put Chesnaught dangerously close to the "too passive" trap ala Chansey and my bottom bitch Alo.
It does get Superpower, but it is a TERRIBLE move on it because it lowers attack and defense, compromising BOTH its ability to wall and that of retaliating back.Doesn't it also get superpower?
Hammer Arm doesn't do jack shit to Landorus and Gengar either, and Breloom will never be able to hurt Chesnaught(Mach Punch is only a 6HKO at best after Stealth Rocks, while Bullet Seed is blocked by Bulletproof), so the added damage doesn't exactly help. And against Keldeo you are going to use a grass move anyway if you carry one....With the exception of Breloom, Landorus-t, Non-Hp Fly Keldeo and non-Wisp gengar *this changes with the GameStop promotion event giving a shiny gengar sludge wave, but at least you have a way to know if it might have it*
No, I really wasn't trying to make a point, just showing that chesnaught does take on other stuff than dark/rock/Steels/normals.Hammer Arm doesn't do jack shit to Landorus and Gengar either, and Breloom will never be able to hurt Chesnaught(Mach Punch is only a 6HKO at best after Stealth Rocks, while Bullet Seed is blocked by Bulletproof), so the added damage doesn't exactly help. And against Keldeo you are going to use a grass move anyway if you carry one.
Gengar btw already got Sludge Wave in GenV Global Link event, which wasn't even always shiny, plus how do you even recognize a shiny Gengar by first sight lol
Will-O is a TM move for Gengar, and any Gengar running Sludge Wave is probably running a 3-Attacks LO set with Taunt or D-Bond so it doesn't need Tutor Moves anyway.No, I really wasn't trying to make a point, just showing that chesnaught does take on other stuff than dark/rock/Steels/normals.
Gengar CAN have sludge wave otherwise, however it restricts it with a bunch of moves... I forget what he loses but I believe will-o-wisp or pain split was one of the huge ones. As for staying in on gengar, depends on the chesnaught set+support around him. I personally don't mind... wisp is taken care of by heal bell and even then I run shadow claw. I also have taunt, so if they do that sub wisp garbage (which starts with sub, most importantly, since even wood hammer does 45% to gengar), I can avoid wisps or just bell it later.
While I can't deny this is a good thought, I can't see it really gaining any traction. Ches really appreciates the passive recovery of Leech Seed and, occasionally, the passive damage of Spiky Shield. Drain Punch only works against so many different threats, and when any flying type comes in, you'll have do immediate switches, giving your opponent a free switch. It seems really counter intuitive to lose to birds every single time in my mind. Of course, I'll definitely try out AV Ches, I just can't see it working all that well.Anyone tried AV Chesnaught now when it has Drain Punch ? With it it may act as mixed tank with the ability to check for example Aegislash (as I think it will end up retested in ORAS metagame), Keldeo, Rotom-W, Raikou, Mega Manectric, some Grass types, Mega Sceptile, Mega Ampharos. etc. while still keep in check standard physical attackers like Tyranitar, Bisharp, Landorus-T or Gyarados. I need to check some calculations (Max HP/Max Atk sounds as most reasonable option with Drain Punch/Wood Hammer or Seed Bomb/Earthquake/Dragon Claw move choices and Atk EVs to power up healing from Drain Punch), but in theory it doesn't sound as bad for stall/balanced teams to form some FWG cores. Any thoughts or suggestions to potentially change something here ? As I consider to test it out, but no idea it EVs spread is truly ideal here.