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Cloyster Discussion

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by FaceFaceFace, May 22, 2012.

  1. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    Hey guys. New here. Been playing Pokemon Online (mainly the OU tier) for about a month now, and slowly coming to terms with the meta-game.

    Not sure if this has been addressed before (tried searching, but nothing), but I've always had difficulty with Cloyster regardless of what my team is. One shell smash and I usually lose 2~3 pokemon (maybe even an entire team!) before taking it down.

    So in order to find out how people would counter the shellfish I decided to put him into my team; as a lead.

    To my dismay (and joy?), the answers haven't been very clear-cut yet. OHKO moves aside (which is rare if you put Cloyster as a lead), there seems to be very little that can prevent Cloyster from sweeping once it gets off a Shell Smash. Pseudo-hazers take heavy damage, or even get taken down trying to switch Cloyster out thanks to the increased crit-probability (more hits, more% to crit).

    So, any insight into how one would stop this...thing from going on a rampage? Whimsicott is the only one I can think of, even with that you still risk eating a non-boosted icicle spear.

    Thanks!
  2. dragonuser

    dragonuser The only thing I look up to is the sky
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    Skarmory is generally able to wall every attack CLoyster has (barring rare Hidden Power Fire variant). Scizor and Conkeldurr make decent revengers as well, and Venusaur in the Sun can outspeed and KO it. Generally when I play against Cloyster, I try to damage it/cripple it while it sets up because that is its most vulnerable time(even getting 30-40% off of it can make a huge difference), and leaves it easily picked off by priority users.

    EDIT: Timid Venusaur, sorry for not clarifying
  3. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Cloyster is going to be tricky but the best way of handling it is preventing it from setting up. Infernape, Lucario, Scizor, Conkeldurr can all hit it pretty hard with their priority and KO if its weakened. Rotom W and usually take Rock Blast (only once tho) and Volt Switch, Starmie has even been known to tank a hit and then die (in my experience anyway). Skarmory works well however if Rain is up, then Hydro Pump is going to hurt, Quagsire can handle ones that run Shell Blade (iirc) and its possible to EV Ferrothorn to avoid the 2KO from Skill Link Icicle Spear.

    EDIT at above. Apparently Cloyster outspeeds Scarf Terrakion and Venusaur in the Sun js
  4. Cooky

    Cooky

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    Skarms destroyed by hydro pump and can only phase anyway. neither Scizor nor Conkeldurr OHKO, even at -1, CS terrakion and standard venusaur are outsped as well.

    in terms of counters, defensive jirachi can take a hit and paralyze, Sp. Def tran can take a water hit out of rain and OHKO with lava plume after SR, bulky rotom w annihilates it every time, and offensive versions can take a rock blast at full hp. if your not packing a counter its not so hard to stop though, rules are simple: get SR up and dont let it set up freely, revenge kill.

    also simple answer thread i guess
  5. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    problem with cloyster is that a lot of would be counters and checks can be beaten with a bit of prior damage. even max/max+ Ferrothorn loses an average of 72% of its health from Plate Icicle Spear and 252/0 Rotom-W takes about the same damage from Rock Blast. Other counters like Jirachi, Scizor and Quagsire lose if Rain is up.

    If your opponent is holding a late game Cloyster then your best bet is to maintain pressure and don't give him any setup opportunities or just execute your end-game plan before he executes his.
  6. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    WHat if, like I said, Cloyster is put as lead? There isn't really a chance for SR to go up that way.

    So far the answer seems either bulky Jirachi or revenge kill, which means losing 1 pokemon and having the other potentially taking major damage. Not so simple at all...
  7. Tensai

    Tensai

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    Sorry if I'm not qualified to post on this topic, but here is what I found works for me:

    If you lead with a pokemon that knows volt switch, you can deal a heavy chunk of HP the first turn, after they set up the smash. Then, just pick a mon with a priority attack and hopefully finish it. I've be using a Forretress and an Arcanine with ES, and I've had no problems so far.
  8. Lemonz

    Lemonz

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    Skarmory walls and phazes it.

    Quagsire walls it to no end.

    Conk revenges it.

    Scizor can take whatever and kill it before he dies.

    Cloyster, although having gained enormous offensive stats after a shell small, still has time getting through common defensive pokemon, like skarm or vaporeon. Its also weak to priority; although it still has the equilvalent of a 100+ defense, vacuum wave from lucario will absolutely destroy it.

    Basically, try packing a bulky water/ steel type or a revenge killer like conk.
  9. VaporeonIce

    VaporeonIce

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    Also, use Slowbro. It walls Cloyster, and Thunder Wave renders Cloyster useless; alternatively, you can just attack its horrible Special Defense. Then switch out for Regenerator healing and profit!
  10. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    shaky checks!

    +2 neutral Plate Icicle Spear vs 252/252+ Skarmory = 67.37% - 79.34%
    0 SpA Rain-boosted Hydro Pump vs 252/0 Quagsire = 66.50% - 78.68%
    +2 neutral Plate Icicle Spear vs 120/0 Conkeldurr = 108.14% - 127.56%
    252 Adamant Conk Mach Punch vs 4/0 -1 Cloyster = 55.37% - 66.94%
    +2 neutral Rain-boosted Razor Shell vs 248/0 Scizor = 86.59% - 101.75%
    +2 0 SpA neutral Rain-boosted Hydro Pump vs 248/0 Scizor = 129.74% - 153.06%
    +2 0 SpA neutral Hydro Pump [no rain] vs 248/0 Scizor = 86.59% - 102.33% (92% chance to OHKO with SR)

    keep thinking that, love overconfident Slowbro players!

    +2 0 SpA neutral Rain-boosted Hydro Pump vs 252/0 Slowbro = 56.35% - 66.50%

    counters shouldn't take around 70% really even with regenerator.

    it's not so much a problem as a lead because, like I've said, it needs it's counters to be slightly weakened to beat them. And it presumably won't have Rain or SR up, sending the list of counters through the roof. Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Jirachi, Magnezone, Metagross, Politoed, Rotom-W, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Slowbro...or just revenge with a Scarf 110 base Spe Pokemon like Latios.
  11. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    Cloyster? This looks like a job for...
    [​IMG]
    Water/Fighting with Water Absorb.
    252 +2 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs 252 HP/252 Def Poliwrath: 32.03% - 37.5% [3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)]
    Circle Throw it out and problem solved.

    Poliwrath (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Circle Throw
    - Ice Beam
  12. VaporeonIce

    VaporeonIce

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    If you're looking for something that takes less than 65% (from an 80% accurate move that requires a boosting weather to do that much damage) at +2 in order to qualify as a counter, then I'm pretty sure that pretty much no good sweeper ever has any counters. That's kind of the point of counters; you switch them in the first turn your opponent has their Pokemon in. They have a choice of attacking (and doing crap for damage) or setting up. Then, when your counter's in, they have a choice of attacking, failing to KO, and having their sweeper crippled or killed, or they can choose to switch out. I'm pretty sure that's how countering a sweeper works.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    The true counters to Cloyster are physically defensive Slowbro, physically defensive Poliwrath, SpDefensive Jirachi, physically defensive Jellicent, physically defensive Rotom-W and Ferrothorn. There might be some others but these are the only ones that have reliable recovery, or semi-reliable recovery(RestTalk, Leech Seed, Pain Split).

    Any scarfer with 110 Speed or more, such as Latios and Gengar, are decent checks, as they can outspeed and ohko, while CB Scizor and Conkeldur can kill with priority, if Cloyster is a bit weakened.
  14. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Um... 1 layer of spikes and rocks means 2hko at the very least on all of them.
  15. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    +2 Jolly Razor Shell in Rain vs 252/0 Jirachi = 73.51% - 86.39%

    I've already mentioned the shakiness of Slowbro and Ferrothorn as counters too. Can't fault Poliwrath, Jellicent or physically defensive Rotom-W though. They're rock-solid.

    the point of a counter is to switch as the opponent makes their move. So any counter to Cloyster has to assume that the bivalve is already at +2/+2/+2. And given that the analysis is quite adamant that Cloyster should be used with Rain support, it's not overly idealistic of me to assume it in my calculations. Between his weakness to Volt-Turn, Pursuit and every form of residual damage and the fact that he takes up to 66% from a boosted attack you can't rely too heavily on Slowbro to counter Cloyster.

    Countering Cloyster is hard, preventing him from setting up in the first place isn't...I'm usually forced to run Memento support.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    1 layer of Spikes and SR is never an argument to dismiss something as a counter. Also it doesn't matter if Cloyster can 2hko all of them at +2, since he will die before being able to 2hko them.

    @Lee, yeah SpDefensive Jirachi is shaky if it doesn't have Thunder, since relying on a 60% chance to beat a poke is not so good, but still it is the best check.

    Also what about Slowbro? It takes anything easily, and ohkoes after SR with Psychic (Psychic does 75,1% min to Cloyster) or always if Cloyster is holding LO and not White Herb.

    EDIT: I just saw your post talking about Slowbro being weak to Volt-turn, Pursuit and all hazards... So what? Slowbro shouldn't be taking Volt-turn users that can hurt him anyway (Scizor, Celebi and Rotom-W) and Scizor is doing like ~23% damage in average after Regenerator with CB Pursuit. That's like saying that Gliscor can't wall physical attackers well, because special attacker are everywhere... The point is that Slowbro wasn't meant to take those attacks in the first place.

    Also he isn't weak to all hazards. Weak to SR, means taking super effective damage from it, which Slowbro doesn't. And if you let your opponent get SR + 2 layer of Spikes, this is your fault, and is in no way the standard scenario. Are we seriously doubting that Slowbro is resilient enough to counter Cloyster throughout the game? A poke with Regenerator AND Slack Off, that is almost impossible to kill from the physical side, unless you stack your team with physical heavy hitters?

    And finally, yeah when something takes 70% from the poke that it is supposed to counter, after the set-up turn, can ohko back, and has not one but two means of reliable recovery, it is officially considered as a counter for all intents and purposes!
  17. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    sorry if i'm repeating myself here but:

    4 SpA LO +2 Rain-boosted Hydro Pump vs 252/0 Slowbro = 73.35% - 86.80%

    If you run about 80~ SpA EVs you've got a 50/50 chance of OHKOing after SR!

    100% - 23% - 12% (SR) = 65%. remind me how much that non-LO Hydro Pump does again...? not arguing that it's a counter because it can do the job in some scenarios - i'm just saying it's not a very reliable one.

    And with Jirachi, it isn't so much the accuracy issues of Thunder since they're mitigated by the fact Cloyster prefers to play in the Rain - it's more to do with the whole 'you lose up to 86% of your health from Razor Shell' thing and that's way too much for a supposed counter to take for my liking.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    We were talking about White Herb Cloyster, i assume, when talking about the 70% damage thing... But even with LO, Slowbro still IS a reliable counter, since it avoids the ohko after SR, and assuming that rain is on the field (which is a condition i could doubt would be up, since one always has the option to run Sand or Sun, but i didn't).

    Also the 23% damage that Scizor would do with Pursuit are largely irrelevant... First of all, if you are a smart guy, you would know to keep your Slowbro healthy when seeing Cloyster in your opponent's RAIN team. It's not like it is hard to do anyway, with his ability and Slack Off. And even if Scizor uses Pursuit on you, assuming you switch to something that will scare Scizor out, you can just double switch back into Slowbro, to go back to 100% after switching out again, so here you are, all problems solved.

    Anyway let's close this pointless arguing, as it is a fact, not a personal opinion, that Slowbro is a counter to Cloyster, and a reliable one as he has 2 ways of recovering, one being only by switching out. It may not be for you, if you want your counter to be able to take less than 70% from the poke you want it to counter, but for the majority of the people it is.
  19. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Wi-Fi Blacklisted

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    Is HP electric worth considering on any of the sets (and possibly hp fire because of the sun)?? The former is a more reliable move for dealing with vaporeon and jellicent, and it's also an option for dealing with keldeo when he's released (resists all his other moves). Hp fire reduces your speed by one point, but I still think it's worth considering with sun being so common. What do you think??
  20. Arcticblast

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    I'd like to back up the sentiment that the standard Jellicent counters Cloyster. If you come in on the Shell Smash and use Will-O-Wisp as it uses Rock Blast, you'll survive a second hit and can Recover the damage off. Even if it uses Shell Smash a second time, you're still okay.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    This is true only for White Herb Cloyster, as with LO, it can 2hko even after the burn. Doesn't make it any less of a counter though, since after you burn it, you should just get the fuck out, and go to a resist.
  22. Arcticblast

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    I didn't have a good switch at the time I realized this, so I didn't think of that...

    Has anybody used defensive Cloyster effectively? Obviously it has its flaws (hello base 45 special defense) but that amazing Defense is hard to ignore, and it has a nice support movepool.
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    ^Yeah he is very good, imo.

    He does really good as a spinner in Sun teams, which love his ability to deal with physical dragons, and even with special dragons in a pinch with Ice Shard. Also in sun, you can use HP Fire and literally make most Spikers in OU your bitches, such as Ferrothorn (you lose around 42% from Power Whip with max/max, while doing back ~63% in sun) , Forretress and Skarmory, as well as ohkoing CBZor, which becomes a dick otherwise in sun.

    My favourite moveset and ev spread has been 248 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe Relaxed, with a moveset of Icicle Spear, Ice Shard, Rapid Spin and HP Fire. The Speed evs are enough to outspeed CBZor and everything else is put in HP and Defense.
  24. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Lol it's not a fact, it's a statement, and an incorrect one. How is your slowbro going to fare when he switches into rocks on my shellsmash and is then 1hkod 90% of the time
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Except that a +2 LO Hydro Pump in rain does 67,01%-79,19%, which is never a ohko even after SR + 1 layer of Spikes, after Lefties recovery.

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