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Cloyster
- Thread starter DDRMaster
- Start date
Ludicolo gets punctured by Icicle Spear due to its part Grass-typing making it neutral to Ice, and Lanturn gets crushed by Rock Blast.
I think Rock Blast would be able to take care of it rather handily. Heatran has bulk, but not that much and Rock Black deals neutral damage. I'm pretty sure it would be a OHKO, even without SR.
You'd have to had either Hydro Pump or HP Ground to deal with other Steel types. If you ain't afraid of missing, use Hydro Pump, but Empoleon will resist whole moveset, thus HP Ground would be another option. Don't just look at one pokemon, but the whole scenario, as it's more important.
My attempt at Cloyster theorymon:
Cloyster
*Unlimited Spear Works*
Skill Link
Bulky Spread: @ Leftovers / Naive / 252 HP / 208 Speed / 48 Attack
Offensive Spread: @ Chople Berry / Naive / 252 Attack / 208 Speed / 48 Sp. Attack
Sweetspot Spread: Naughty / 252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Sp. Attack
- Shell Break *1 point above ScarfChomp*
- Icicle Spear *Main STAB*
- HP Electric *BoltBeam combo, eliminates Skarm/Gyara and hurts Empoleon*
- Substitute (Bulky) or Shell Blade (Offensive) *Substitute for stopping priority shots, Shell Blade for secondary STAB*
Running the bulky EV spread:
- If the pre-battle peek reveals a fighting priority user, use Sub to block it before they switch in, then damage them. I don't think this much bulk will withstand a LO Dory EQ at -1 but it's testworthy.
- If the pre-battle peek reveals no fighting priority user or there's none left, use Shell Break once. If there's nothing with Extremespeed or Bullet Punch left, use it twice.
Running the offensive EV spread:
- Use Shell Break once and drop whatever poke came in with Fighting priority as your opponent rages at your 'gimmick' Chople Berry. <"NOOOOOOOOB!!!"> Proceed to sweep.
The 'sweetspot' spread:
This spread can be used the same way as either of the spreads above it, it's a slower version of both, use the item and 4th move combination that fits the task.
I came up with this thread helping someone theorymon a 'sweetspot' for Abagoora.
With no speed EVs, Cloyster rests at 176 speed, which ties with other completely unev'd base 70s, so you can get lucky and lose those speed ties or move after people who like to add 4 spd EVs in order to get off a Shell Break after your opponent hits you.
This way, Cloyster takes less damage during setup.
At 176 speed, 1 Shell Break lets it outpace +spdGar and other base 110s (352 vs 350), 2 Shell Breaks lets it outpace scarf+spdGar and other base 110s (528 vs 525).
I've frequently editted in order to make the sets more streamlined, expect more edits to come.
Cloyster
*Unlimited Spear Works*
Skill Link
Bulky Spread: @ Leftovers / Naive / 252 HP / 208 Speed / 48 Attack
Offensive Spread: @ Chople Berry / Naive / 252 Attack / 208 Speed / 48 Sp. Attack
Sweetspot Spread: Naughty / 252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Sp. Attack
- Shell Break *1 point above ScarfChomp*
- Icicle Spear *Main STAB*
- HP Electric *BoltBeam combo, eliminates Skarm/Gyara and hurts Empoleon*
- Substitute (Bulky) or Shell Blade (Offensive) *Substitute for stopping priority shots, Shell Blade for secondary STAB*
Running the bulky EV spread:
- If the pre-battle peek reveals a fighting priority user, use Sub to block it before they switch in, then damage them. I don't think this much bulk will withstand a LO Dory EQ at -1 but it's testworthy.
- If the pre-battle peek reveals no fighting priority user or there's none left, use Shell Break once. If there's nothing with Extremespeed or Bullet Punch left, use it twice.
Running the offensive EV spread:
- Use Shell Break once and drop whatever poke came in with Fighting priority as your opponent rages at your 'gimmick' Chople Berry. <"NOOOOOOOOB!!!"> Proceed to sweep.
The 'sweetspot' spread:
This spread can be used the same way as either of the spreads above it, it's a slower version of both, use the item and 4th move combination that fits the task.
I came up with this thread helping someone theorymon a 'sweetspot' for Abagoora.
With no speed EVs, Cloyster rests at 176 speed, which ties with other completely unev'd base 70s, so you can get lucky and lose those speed ties or move after people who like to add 4 spd EVs in order to get off a Shell Break after your opponent hits you.
This way, Cloyster takes less damage during setup.
At 176 speed, 1 Shell Break lets it outpace +spdGar and other base 110s (352 vs 350), 2 Shell Breaks lets it outpace scarf+spdGar and other base 110s (528 vs 525).
I've frequently editted in order to make the sets more streamlined, expect more edits to come.
I've been playing a bit on Gary Oak, since they have B/W Pokes implemented. I tried Shell Break Cloyster, and while it certainly did alright, with Sand Teams currently everywhere (READ: T-Tar, Dory, Randorosu, Bulky Water, Bulky Grass, SR/Spikes Lead), Cloyster has a hard time setting up, and its still checked fairly well by Dory, who outspeeds in Sand after a Shell Break and not sure if LO EQ can OHKO after Shell Break, but should do a lot.
Yeah, Dory is Cloyster's biggest problem. Mach Punch Breloom can be planned around; Dory's a pretty well set revenge kill. Rock Slide hits hard too.
Scarfing Cloyster? That isn't such a good idea, especially with that moveset as Empoleon resists all of it and Steel types (not factoring it's secondary typings) resists 3 of those moves. Furthermore, it's so fragile in terms of Sp.Def that it crumbles to almost any STAB Sp.Atk that it does not resist that comes from a Pokemon having Base 110 Sp.Atk.
Don't ever give cloyster def EVs (unless you've maxed out his hp evs). Hp EVs give him more physical bulk than def evs, and also gives some special bulk to boot
Lucario and Empoleon will enjoy sending Cloyster to BL.
In all seriousness though, at least Cloyster isn't stuck in UU anymore.
In all seriousness though, at least Cloyster isn't stuck in UU anymore.
I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but Max HP/DEF Nattorei can switch into any of +2, LO, 252 atk, adamant cloyster's 5 hit moves and OHKO it with rough helm. Each of the 5 hits activates rough helm + steel thorns.
He would also barely survive, as ice shard does 57-67 a hit and Natt has 352 hp. If the cloyster is CB'd then it can KO natt(but will die itself).
He would also barely survive, as ice shard does 57-67 a hit and Natt has 352 hp. If the cloyster is CB'd then it can KO natt(but will die itself).
Uh, not really. We actually went through this previously in this thread actually. First of all, Icicle Spear IS NOT a contact move, meaning that it does not activate Rough Helm, and it does not activate Steel Thorns. In addition, Nattorei takes 81% - 95.2% from a +2 LO Icicle Spear, meaning that he cannot switch in. Seriously, Nattorei isn't a counter.
Oh, I didn't know it did not activate helm. The entire point was that he did switch into it take 81-95% and by virtue of spikyness ohko him, but I guess that does work.
It might work on his other 5 hit moves(not sure), but then again that is less than ideal as the default(unless you bring in a strong lure) is icicle spear.
It might work on his other 5 hit moves(not sure), but then again that is less than ideal as the default(unless you bring in a strong lure) is icicle spear.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
(Apologies for my above deleted post, which some people may have seen. Protip: never leave yourself logged in on a friend's iPhone).
Technically Nattorei can switch in, as it's either coming in on Shell Break (survives the OHKO @ +2) or an attack (Icicle Spear won't 2HKO without a boost). Power Whip will KO with Stealth Rock and two turns of Life Orb recoil, I think. However, it's a shaky counter.
Thing is, Cloyster isn't that fast and quite a few Scarfers can revenge it; with an Adamant nature, iirc, it loses to base 100s, and even with Naive it gets outsped by the likes of Latias and swiftly OHKOd. Registeel is a pretty solid counter, not taking much damage from anything (okay, +2 Hydro Pump hurts, but a Careful spread from 75 / 150 defenses can tank it quite comfortably). How much does physically defensive Burunkeru take from Rock Blast?
What I'd really be worried about is what Cloyster is going to set up on. It has only two resistances, and both are to moves which are mostly specially-based. The physical attackers of this generation are predominantly extremely hard-hitters which Cloyster finds it difficult to take attacks from - especially offensive variants. I think its best bet is to set up on Choice-locked Pursuits from Tyranitar, but it can easily get worn down by hazards (Spikes are very common this gen from my experience, in addition to the 25% from SR) and mounting Sandstorm damage on top of LO recoil and whatever you take trying to set up.
Technically Nattorei can switch in, as it's either coming in on Shell Break (survives the OHKO @ +2) or an attack (Icicle Spear won't 2HKO without a boost). Power Whip will KO with Stealth Rock and two turns of Life Orb recoil, I think. However, it's a shaky counter.
Thing is, Cloyster isn't that fast and quite a few Scarfers can revenge it; with an Adamant nature, iirc, it loses to base 100s, and even with Naive it gets outsped by the likes of Latias and swiftly OHKOd. Registeel is a pretty solid counter, not taking much damage from anything (okay, +2 Hydro Pump hurts, but a Careful spread from 75 / 150 defenses can tank it quite comfortably). How much does physically defensive Burunkeru take from Rock Blast?
What I'd really be worried about is what Cloyster is going to set up on. It has only two resistances, and both are to moves which are mostly specially-based. The physical attackers of this generation are predominantly extremely hard-hitters which Cloyster finds it difficult to take attacks from - especially offensive variants. I think its best bet is to set up on Choice-locked Pursuits from Tyranitar, but it can easily get worn down by hazards (Spikes are very common this gen from my experience, in addition to the 25% from SR) and mounting Sandstorm damage on top of LO recoil and whatever you take trying to set up.
Registeel is actually 2HKOed by LO Icicle Spear after Shell Break if it's running its usual 252 HP/252 SpD Careful spread (45.3% - 53.6%). The problem with Registeel is that yes, he can switch in, but he's too slow so he has to basically take 2 hits before he can move unless he can switch in on Shell Break, meaning that he won't survive. Also, what's he going to do to Cloyster besides Thunder Wave?
Burunkeru with 252 HP/252 Def and a boosting nature is taking 69.3% - 82.9% from a +2 LO Rock Blast, and 52% - 61.9% from +2 LO Icicle Spear. He better hope he's switching in while Cloyster uses Shell Break if he wants to counter it.
What would Punishment deal, in terms of damage, after Shell Break from various Punishment capable?
Oh and Empoleon is potentially 2HKO'd by Waterfall with rocks, so it can't really switch in or anything, same goes for Lucario, only to a greater extent.
Enjoy your 'counters'.
Enjoy your 'counters'.
*overhead woosh motion*
Okay well, with 0 SpAtk EV's and a -SpAtk nature Cloyster can still do 41.7% - 49% to Empoleon after the Shell Break boost with Hydro Pump. With neutral SpAtk nature he hits 46.2% - 54.8% with 0 EV's, and with 72 EV's he hits enough to always 2HKO at 50.3% - 59.6%.
So there you go. (This is with LO though)
Okay well, with 0 SpAtk EV's and a -SpAtk nature Cloyster can still do 41.7% - 49% to Empoleon after the Shell Break boost with Hydro Pump. With neutral SpAtk nature he hits 46.2% - 54.8% with 0 EV's, and with 72 EV's he hits enough to always 2HKO at 50.3% - 59.6%.
So there you go. (This is with LO though)
