Contrary Doubles

[Imperator Romanum]

This would be hilariously broken lol

252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 247-292 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-352 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 336-396 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 214-252 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 442-522 (151.8 - 179.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 255-301 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Asumi]

Completely forgot about contrary Superpower's +1 Atk and Def.
Brick Break would be pretty useful in Doubles to break ubiquitous screens though.

Besides, Flame Orb Regigigas with pseudo Huge Power deals enough damage to break anything worth mentioning. OHKOs Skarm if rocks broke Sturdy.
Intimidate doesn't work, status doesn't work, it's faster than anything on the first 3 turns. You can pretty much make its partner spam Heal Pulse and let gigas do all the hitting.
Why isn't this banned? ﾟヮﾟ

252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 247-292 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Intimidate would hasten your demise. ﾟヮﾟ


And btw, I think it's more like this
Huge Power as a stand-in for Slow Start. +2 as a stand-in for Burn.

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 531-625 (145.8 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 547-645 (130.2 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

etc.

Pretty much anything without Sturdy dies. It's hilarious. :D


... I just noticed Gigas was quick banned. XD
Should be added to the clauses list because obviously not gonna unban anytime.

 

[Lcass4919]

This would be hilariously broken lol

252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 247-292 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 298-352 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 336-396 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 214-252 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 442-522 (151.8 - 179.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Regigigas Return vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 255-301 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

slow start halves attack and speed. so it would be +2 so yeah...it would be even MORE broken then these calcs sudgest.
im bad at reading posts above mine.

 

[Esprite]

If you guys are that scared of offense, use Swagger and Flatter!
Emo Mime (Gothitelle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
*insert EVs & IVs here*
- Swagger
- Flatter
- Recover
- Toxic

Idk if it's viable, but it seems like it would take care of all the overpowered things.

 

[Lcass4919]

If you guys are that scared of offense, use Swagger and Flatter!
Emo Mime (Gothitelle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
*insert EVs & IVs here*
- Swagger
- Flatter
- Recover
- Toxic

Idk if it's viable, but it seems like it would take care of all the overpowered things.

goth doesnt get recover. lol.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Easily handled by taunt too.

Along with Gigas being banned, why was Superpower even brought into this discussion when the first post states that:

• Draco Meteor, Psycho Boost, V-Create, Leaf Storm, and Superpower are banned.

 

[LightningLord2]

It would be a shame if someone were to use Follow Me to steal partner-boosting moves. Also, Audino can use Entrainment + Healer to prevent the target's partner from gaining Burn/Paralysis boosts.

 

[Martin]

It would be a shame if someone were to use Follow Me to steal partner-boosting moves. Also, Audino can use Entrainment + Healer to prevent the target's partner from gaining Burn/Paralysis boosts.

If Healer activates after Flame Orb this could be usable (but ridiculously niche), but I have a hunch that abilities activate before end-of-turn items. Don't quote me tho, as I'm not sure.

 

[Whydon]

This is a bit overdo, but I found something that seems to provide really great team support:

Murkrow @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Feather Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger / Screech
- Whirlwind / Taunt / Roost

Feather Dance can be used on your ally to increase their Attack by two, and you can use Thunder Wave to increase their speed tremendously (still need to be wary about that paralyze chance). You can use Swagger to lower the attack of your opponent while also confusing them (but even if they hit themselves it won't do much), or you can go with Screech to increase your ally's Defense by 2. The last slot is your choice. You can use Whirlwind if something on the opponent's team is really scary, Taunt can be used to stop opposing team supporters from doing too much, and Roost can be used to restore your own HP. The EVs were from the suggested EV spread, but you can also run EVs in Speed if you want to try and outspeed opposing Murkrow and try to Taunt them.

 

[Illusio]

Why is Moody banned? +1 stat and -2 another isn't exactly meta-breaking, or even good.

 

[Whydon]

This thread has been kinda dead, so I've been looking for some strategic options to post here. I updated the OP so it's shorter and included the list of items there. Here are a few sets I think will be pretty good in this meta:

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch

Not sure how good MLop is in Doubles, but it looks like it could be pretty good here. Burning it will give it immense power, and Fake Out will be very useful for things such as Murkrow or Sableye that will be trying to burn or boost up their own partners.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Moonlight
- Wish / Heal Bell
- Protect / Toxic / Stealth Rocks

Another metagame where Clefable can shine? I think so. Unaware is a great ability that will allow you to get past all of those stat boosts that will for sure dominate this metagame. Dazzling Gleam is set as an option instead of Moonblast because Moonblast has that chance of boosting your opponent's Special Attack by one. Doesn't matter for Clefable, but it can be dangerous if that Special Attack boost can be used to attack your partner. Moonlight for recovery, and Wish or Heal Bell for cleric. Heal Bell might be undesirable since most of your Pokemon might actually enjoy being burned or paralyzed, but can be useful in curing poison. Last move is filler really, Protect is great in Doubles, Toxic can be used to wear down Pokemon, and Stealth Rocks is just there I suppose.

Gengar @ Life Orb / Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
- Dazzling Gleam / Will-O-Wisp
- Protect / Destiny Bond / filler

Another powerful attacker than can take advantage of Macho Brace. Hex will probably be much better than Shadow Ball due to all of the predicted status effects that will be running around, as well as because of the fact that Hex does not have a chance of raising the target's Special Defense. Sludge Wave/Bomb for powerful STAB, Dazzling Gleam / Will-O for coverage/support, and last move as filler.

Whimsicott @ Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
- Taunt
- Encore / Stun Spore

Some more fast and bulky support. Dazzling Gleam for damage, Protect because Doubles, Taunt to shut down things like Murkrow and other Whimsicotts, and last move for support.

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack

Because Swords Dance is horrible here, Pinsir now can comfortably run EQuake and CC together. CC is great with those Defense boosts, and the other moves are simply for some hard hitting attacking power. Burn this guy and you'll be set to deal some serious damage.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

This thread has been kinda dead, so I've been looking for some strategic options to post here. I updated the OP so it's shorter and included the list of items there. Here are a few sets I think will be pretty good in this meta:

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Return
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch

Not sure how good MLop is in Doubles, but it looks like it could be pretty good here. Burning it will give it immense power, and Fake Out will be very useful for things such as Murkrow or Sableye that will be trying to burn or boost up their own partners.

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam / Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Wish / Heal Bell
- Protect / Toxic / Stealth Rocks

Another metagame where Clefable can shine? I think so. Unaware is a great ability that will allow you to get past all of those stat boosts that will for sure dominate this metagame. Dazzling Gleam is set as an option instead of Moonblast because Moonblast has that chance of boosting your opponent's Special Attack by one. Doesn't matter for Clefable, but it can be dangerous if that Special Attack boost can be used to attack your partner. Moonlight for recovery, and Wish or Heal Bell for cleric. Heal Bell might be undesirable since most of your Pokemon might actually enjoy being burned or paralyzed, but can be useful in curing poison. Last move is filler really, Protect is great in Doubles, Toxic can be used to wear down Pokemon, and Stealth Rocks is just there I suppose.

Gengar @ Life Orb / Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
- Dazzling Gleam / Will-O-Wisp
- Protect / Destiny Bond / filler

Another powerful attacker than can take advantage of Macho Brace. Hex will probably be much better than Shadow Ball due to all of the predicted status effects that will be running around, as well as because of the fact that Hex does not have a chance of raising the target's Special Defense. Sludge Wave/Bomb for powerful STAB, Dazzling Gleam / Will-O for coverage/support, and last move as filler.

Whimsicott @ Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Protect
- Taunt
- Encore / Stun Spore

Some more fast and bulky support. Dazzling Gleam for damage, Protect because Doubles, Taunt to shut down things like Murkrow and other Whimsicotts, and last move for support.

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack

Because Swords Dance is horrible here, Pinsir now can comfortably run EQuake and CC together. CC is great with those Defense boosts, and the other moves are simply for some hard hitting attacking power. Burn this guy and you'll be set to deal some serious damage.

On Clefable, Dazzling Gleam is probably better period, because it targets both opponents as this is doubles. Heal Pulse might also be an option for helping a bulky setup partner that doesn't have recovery of its own (unless that's illegal with its ability)

 

[Whydon]

On Clefable, Dazzling Gleam is probably better period, because it targets both opponents as this is doubles. Heal Pulse might also be an option for helping a bulky setup partner that doesn't have recovery of its own (unless that's illegal with its ability)

I forgot that Dazzling Gleam can hit both opponents! In that case it's definitely the go-to for Fairy STAB, as for Heal Pulse I will check to see if it is compatible (maybe? not sure if it is).

 

[tehy]

can i just say that from an outsider's perspective, this meta is kind of confusing and seems really unpalatable. Like, what is the draw to it specifically? and don't just tell me the rules of the meta in a different way, explain to me how those constitute a draw.

 

[Whydon]

can i just say that from an outsider's perspective, this meta is kind of confusing and seems really unpalatable. Like, what is the draw to it specifically? and don't just tell me the rules of the meta in a different way, explain to me how those constitute a draw.

Could you elaborate more on what you mean?

 

[tehy]

Could you elaborate more on what you mean?

sure thing

if i was a random smogonite, what would make me want to play this tier over a different one? what makes it stand out or be interesting?

mostly what I see is things that are worse and not in a particularly interesting way. like, what are the interesting new strategies you can work with? how does a match of this differ significantly from a match of doubles?

i think the especial problem with this meta in particular is also that, rather than things getting better, they mostly get worse. that said though I await your answer.

 

[Whydon]

sure thing

if i was a random smogonite, what would make me want to play this tier over a different one? what makes it stand out or be interesting?

The entire metagame is a literal flip on the DOUbles metagame. If you were looking for something completely different with new strategies, I would check this out.

mostly what I see is things that are worse and not in a particularly interesting way. like, what are the interesting new strategies you can work with? how does a match of this differ significantly from a match of doubles?

Hm, in what way? I suppose I can see what you mean by that, but I'm not sure what you mean by 'worse' per say. Since everything is flipped, a bunch of moves and Pokemon that you typically wouldn't use become viable and more complex (ex. Featherdance, Murkrow), things such as burning and paralyzing yourself can actually be beneficial without Guts, and using two Pokemon to synergize together becomes very important.

i think the especial problem with this meta in particular is also that, rather than things getting better, they mostly get worse. that said though I await your answer.

Again, could you give me some opinions on what you think becomes worse? :o

Thanks for your post by the way! I'm glad to get some criticism on this metagame.

 

[tehy]

The entire metagame is a literal flip on the DOUbles metagame. If you were looking for something completely different with new strategies, I would check this out.

but what kind of new strategies, for example?

Hm, in what way? I suppose I can see what you mean by that, but I'm not sure what you mean by 'worse' per say. Since everything is flipped, a bunch of moves and Pokemon that you typically wouldn't use become viable and more complex (ex. Featherdance, Murkrow), things such as burning and paralyzing yourself can actually be beneficial without Guts, and using two Pokemon to synergize together becomes very important.

most good things like stat boosting dropping opponent's stats beneficial abilities, all become negatives.

I guess the selling point of this meta is the powerful support Pokemon, this being the main real change to normal playstyles.

 

[Whydon]

but what kind of new strategies, for example?

Burning or paralyzing yourself/partner, using various support moves to get your partner beefed up (ex. Featherdance, Screech), various items dropping and new ones becoming much more viable and powerful (ex. Macho Brace, Life Orb), using new moves in place of others (ex. Dazzling Gleam > Moonblast, Hex > Shadow Ball), being able to prevent your opponent from getting too powerful with many boosts, multiple abilities becoming weaker forcing players to adapt replacements, and many more.

most good things like stat boosting dropping opponent's stats beneficial abilities, all become negatives.

That's what this metagame is all about. It's about flipping moves and abilities in order to find new strategies to fill their roles. While abilities like Huge Power suck now, moves such as Featherdance and Screech become very powerful, Shell Smash becomes powerful for defensive Pokemon, various items become viable, and even some Pokemon see many more possibilities for usage.

 

[bp scrub]

So is Facade changed to halve its power when the user is affect by status? It's not in this list http://pastebin.com/raw/GmbEkfWY

If it hasn't been changed, then oboy 140 bp moves to spam
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Whydon]

So is Facade changed to halve its power when the user is affect by status? It's not in this list http://pastebin.com/raw/GmbEkfWY

If it hasn't been changed, then oboy 140 bp moves to spam
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nope, Facade does not directly affect a stat so it isn't changed. And wow, I actually hadn't seen that. Couple that with a burn and Mega-Pinsir/Lopunny become monstrous.

 

[Martin]

On Clefable, Dazzling Gleam is probably better period, because it targets both opponents as this is doubles. Heal Pulse might also be an option for helping a bulky setup partner that doesn't have recovery of its own (unless that's illegal with its ability)

Dazzling Gleam is also dealing an uninvested 60 BP hit before STAB due to the damage reduction on spread moves, making it literal garbage.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Dazzling Gleam is also dealing an uninvested 60 BP hit before STAB due to the damage reduction on spread moves, making it literal garbage.

But you can boost, and even then, attacking both mons one at a time over 2 turns with Moonblast hits both for 95 BP, while attacking twice with Dazzling Gleam ends up hitting both for 120 BP (before STAB/effectiveness). So for attacking one individual mon, Moonblast is stronger that turn, but Dazzling Gleam provides better chip damage/total damage output on both opponents. I guess it's up to you though, whatever you want to do.

 

[Martin]

But you can boost, and even then, attacking both mons one at a time over 2 turns with Moonblast hits both for 95 BP, while attacking twice with Dazzling Gleam ends up hitting both for 120 BP (before STAB/effectiveness). So for attacking one individual mon, Moonblast is stronger that turn, but Dazzling Gleam provides better chip damage/total damage output on both opponents. I guess it's up to you though, whatever you want to do.

On a fast offensive mon then that'd be good. The issue here is that Clefable is so slow and weak unboosted that having to rely on multiple boosts to actually be slightly threatening is not ideal at all, and most of the time it would rather target a single mon for heavy damage than deal spread damage. In a meta like VGC'14 where double dragons was common you saw stuff like Scarf Gardevoir run it due to Garde being pretty threatening and being able to take advantage of the double dragon core being on every other team, but even with them running around the defensive fairies would always opt for Moonblast over Gleam because you want to deal as much damage over a single turn to an individual target if you aren't aiming to RK a lot of dragons /and/ ScarfVoir almost always had Moonblast in the back for a reliable attack that it could click when not trying to RK or deal with double dragons being on the field. When you don't have a flinch chance to fall back on like you do with Rock Slide, being able to maximise your damage over a single turn is important - especially on a defensive mon that isn't trying to chip at the opponent while also RKing.

 

[SpiderKoloPL]

So is Facade changed to halve its power when the user is affect by status? It's not in this list http://pastebin.com/raw/GmbEkfWY

If it hasn't been changed, then oboy 140 bp moves to spam
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nope, Facade does not directly affect a stat so it isn't changed. And wow, I actually hadn't seen that. Couple that with a burn and Mega-Pinsir/Lopunny become monstrous.

Facade didn't actually ignoring boost from burn status?
I mean, Facade have 140 power from status, burn give x2 boost (normally halved atack, so x1/2 -> x2 damage).
And about burn boost - Facade didn't actually ignoring that x2 boost, because this move normally ignoring drop for atack FROM burn?

I'm really confused now...